I’ve gathered together the comments most relevant to the underdark of the Lortmils, together with Nellisir’s expanded introductory poem, from Nellisir's Underdark thread. See below. What I’d like to do is to begin thinking about more specific information. I’m also rather desperate to come up with a good name for the underdark beneath the Lortmils. Any ideas are welcome.
Hoping to spur thoughts . . .
Nellisir wrote:
To keep this from stretching out into forever, I'll run through the rhyme and explain (roughly) what rough ideas I'd had.
Quote:
Five great realms in darkness deep
Five stone vaults under mountains steep
The five great realms are the underdarks, the five stone vaults are the vaults, obviously. I don't use the two interchangeably -- a vault is a miles-long cavern, not a geographic region (though a region may be under the control of the inhabitants of a vault). There are also very big caverns that are not vaults, and the drow sometimes refer to their primary cities as vaults, futher confusing the terminology.
Quote:
Four lost halls of old
Four lost dwarven halls, not including the Underhalls of the Griff/Corusks. One of these would be the legendary first hall of the dwarves in the Flanaess. Another would probably tie into the duergar, and at least one other would be under draconic control (deliberately invoking Smaug)
Quote:
Four wicked cities the spiders hold
The drow, obviously. I went through the articles on CF and printed out everything I could find related to the Underdark and drow, but don't have them on me and can't recall which four were the "wicked cities". E-C, obviously; one beneath Woolly Bay; one in the west under the Sulhauts (also the closest to the surface), and one other. Possibly under Sunndi, though I'd say those were a separate population of drow than those in the west. There are other drow settlements, but these are the biggest and the worst. (I'm a bit tired of the drow being everywhere, myself.)
Quote:
Three pits of endless thunder
Three waterfalls. Should anyone be totally and completely insane, these are the best ways into the Sunless Sea that underlies so much of the central Flanaess*. These aren't just waterfalls, though -- these are roaring, nigh' bottomless cataracts. One underlies the Vast Swamp, a second drains the Nyr Dyv, and the third?
Quote:
Three labyrinths of earthly plunder
The traditional domains of the svirfneblin. "Earthly plunder" is a thinly veiled reference to the gems that purportedly line the walls of these maze-like realms.
Quote:
Two kingdoms of undeath foul
The White Kingdom, in the southern Hellfurnaces, and the Kingdom of Kyuss, east of the Rift. The Scions ofKyuss hold the few passages from the Griff underdark to the Rift, and are slowly extending their reach east.
Quote:
Two sanctuaries for ebon cowl
Honestly, I don't know. Suel wizards are the obvious choice, which is why I was thinking an isolationist Oeridian battle-cult and Flan refugees instead, probably in service or thrall to the Earth Dragons.
Quote:
One prison under watchful eye
Cyndor, aka the Sleeping God. This is the westernmost point referenced in the rhyme, and underlies the Sea of Dust. Connections from here to the Lost City are likely.
Quote:
One great hall uncloaked to sky
The Rift Canyon, obviously. Once the greatest of the vaults, now potentially the most dangerous place on the surface.
Cheers,
Nell.
*It might be interesting if the Oerth were indeed hollow....and filled with water. A subterranean, bottomless, ebony ocean.... What a terrifying place!
Alternately, the Sunless Sea could form a barrier between the surface and the hollow center, one impassible by teleporting or planar travel, forcing adventurers to pass into its depths before emerging into anew into the Oerthheart.
Nellisir wrote:
There are 5 significant "underrealms" beneath the Flanaess. . . .
The second lies beneath the Lortmils, Celene, and the Gnarly Forest. Labyrinthian passages extend beneath Woolly Bay and as far east as Greyhawk. Humanoids dominate this area -- driven from the upper reaches of the Lortmils by the demihuman alliance, the humanoid races sought refuge here. The easternmost passages dive deeply into the oerth and beneath the Blue-Scant Strait, connecting to the Headlands and the deep caverns under them. A few northern tunnels lead into the maze of limestone caverns that lies under Furyondy.
Cheers
Nell.
Anced_Math wrote:
A dwarven realm would be a nice addition, and reasonable. Though they have various small holds throughout the flaness, the dwarves, (I do not think) do not have a city or population center anywhere. The Lortmils seems like a good location.
Nellisir wrote:
I think it's likely there's a second level of Underoerth realms, primarily flooded, beneath the layer I've described. The Sunless Sea is the uppermost part of these. Other flooded areas include the "Sunndi Underdark", which has extensive deep connections to a, ah, "sub-oceanic" sea, and extensive parts of the Furyondy depths, where seals and dams have failed, letting the Lake of Endless Depths breach the dry tunnels. The Lortmil - Sunndi tunnel also dives very deep and touches the deeper sea.
The Lortmil's are a very good place for a current-day subterranean dwarven stronghold/realm, guarding the upper levels from the humanoid hordes penned in below.
Cheers
Nell.
Nellisir wrote:
. . .
Anyone have cool, creepy names for the specific Underdark regions?
Hellfurnaces/Crystalmist Underdark = ?
Lortmil/Pomarj Underdark =
Furyondy Underdark = ?
Griff/Corusk Underdark = Underhalls
Sunndi Underdark = ?
Cheers
Nell.
GVDammerung wrote:
December 23, 2004, at the weekly Greyhawk, a discussion was had about Oerth’s Underdark.
Nellisir - The Lortmils Underoerth (which reaches to Greyhawk) is a maze. Its where the good races drove the humanoids. Its full of orcs and goblins. Its your “beginner” Underdark.
Wolfling wrote:
What of dragons? I like the idea of an UnderOerth kingdom ruled by an ancient Wyrm...maybe he rules over a kingdom of outcasts who have offered fealty in return for protection from the places and people they fled.
A human civilisation sound slike a good idea...it should definitely not all be monsters. It's also important that not every inhabitant is a vile evil soul. What of the good denizens of the UnderOerth...deep gnomes? dwarves?
I also like the idea of an subterranean funghoid forest with lichens and mosses and giant funghi the size of trees with druid keepers. . . .
Are there any other deities who might have a vested interest in the UnderOerth? Obviously Lolth is about, the Elder Elemental God perhaps in rivalry to Lolth. I think someone talked of The Earth Dragon lurking deep below the Drachensgrabs.
btgrover wrote:
I have a few tweaks in my campaign that I'd introduce - for example, in my campaign, there was an age of dwarves (before they delved too deep, heh heh heh) that saw, among other things, the creation of a number of 'trade highways' (railroads?) that cross across the Underoerth. These fit nicely in with the idea of linking the various regions - although, with the dwurfolk now just a shadow of their former selves, several of these roads have fallen into darkness, and I would imagine deep gates and passes that are now guarded by unspeakable horrors, hiding in the dark.
nuke wrote:
My vision for the UnderOerth beneath the Pomarj is comprised primarily of caverns and tunnels created by volcanic activity, coupled with limestone caves along the coasts.
The inhabitants of this area are primarily abberations (beholders, mindflayers, aboleths and worse. Far worse). One of the historical elements of my campaign has been the legendary "City of Eyes", which is a massive beholder enclave beneath the Drachensgrabs. I say "legendary" because the party has absolutely *no* desire to go fight beholders. (thus proving that fear *will* keep the PCs in line ... at least occasionally).
There are representatives of all the standard subterreanan races, but the weird races dominate. That said, a storyline I'm presently working on revolves around the rise of a "Shadow Empire" in the UnderOerth that has been driving back the abberations using strange and powerful magic, and uniting some of the more-normal humanoid tribes. The party has only just started to learn about this Empire, and it should prove to be a nice higher-level threat.
I haven't done a huge amount of thinking regarding the drow in the Pomarj. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a small Vault who's primarily concern (even more so than the scheming and backstabbing of most drow societies) is simply surviving in a realm overflowing with horrors even they find difficult to fight.
Tzelios wrote:
For example, after A1-4 and the drow villain of the series, there is speculation on the existence of a vault below Gnarley Forest.
Nellisir wrote:
I'm pretty fixed, at this point, on the concept that the "bottom" of the Underdark is defined by water.
Cheers
Nell.
DMPrata wrote:
Here are a few old canon references, for what they're worth. According to Greyhawk Ruins, City of Greyhawk, and From the Ashes, there is an UnderOerth network beneath the Plains of Greyhawk, with points of entry in the Greyhawk dungeons (Tower of War), the Gnarley Forest (Blackthorn), and the Mistmarsh. From what I've been able to piece together, the inhabitants would be orcs, ogres, ogre magi, trolls, troglodytes, derro, duergar, and svirfneblin. I would guess that the trogs are mostly from the Mistmarsh area, and the gnomes mostly from the Gnarley area. Also, there is a reference to Turrosh Mak's representatives travelling overland to Blackthorn for recruiting purposes. This would indicate a lack of connecting passages between the Gnarley UnderOerth and the Pomarj/Drachensgrabs UnderOerth.
Sorting through that, it looks like there is a very large underdark in the area covering and surrounding the Lortmills, including Celene, the Gnarly Forest as far as Greyhawk, and the Pomarj. Might as well toss in part of the Uleks, Gran March (Hookhill’s aqueduct?), Bissel and Venula.
Perhaps halls and best regulated areas would above sea level in the Lortmills and now in control of the dwarves. Throughout the Lortmills, mainly below the halls, and throughout most of the outlying areas would be the “maze” area reference by Nellisir. With such a large maze like area, the dwarven power could not extend to cover it all, but certainly would extend to parts where the resources are best and/or below friendlies.
That creates quite a dichotomy. The goodly high halls and the evil lowly mazes.
With such a big area, and likely diverse population, I do not think a homeland type name for the dwarves is the way to go, afterall, for the whole areas as opposed to the high halls alone. Rather, I would go with one that recognizes the conflict with the dwarves on top. How about “The Dwursapping”?
The two sanctuaries for ebon cowl refer to 1) a stronghold of illumians in the Yatils, and 2) a cloaker kingdom, probably in the Hellfurnaces (but maybe the Sundark).
I think I noted one vault being at the southernmost tip of the Hellfurnaces. Colloquially called "The Furnace", this steam-bath of a cavern is the epitome of a living cave. Fungi rule here. A vast mushroom forest is carefully tended by powerful myconid druids, who trade valuable fungal resources (mostly poisons, really) to the nearby underdark races in exchange for dead bodies, which are stripped of flesh and animated as skeletons. The flesh becomes fertilizer. Periodic upheavals can blast deadly spores throughout the local caverns and clear to the surface; myconids then lead large companies of skeletons to retrieve the resulting dead bodies.
Needless to say, the local human tribes have a hella-lot of nasty "armies of the dead" stories.
Getting back on topic...I'd support a crescent or tri-lobed layout of the Lowhalls, so the Underdark reachs Greyhawk & points slightly west, & the Pomarj, but not between the two. Whether there is a connection and the olves of Celene have sealed it, or there is not connection and no Underdark beneath Celene, I've no thought yet. Actually, that's not true. I think Celene has a cellar. There just might not be stairs.
The Greyhawk region of the Lowhalls is the outskirts. This area is off the Low Road and still home to humanoids and other vile races.
The Pomarj dark is locked down/under military control, and probably only partially by Turrosh Mak. The creatures left here are the worst of the worst, the ones that couldn't be driven to the surface.
The Lowhalls themselves are linked by the Low Road, and consist of a series of halls and vaulted caverns. The dwarves have occupied some of them, but dwarven forces are spread thin after over a century of warfare. Many of the halls are home to undead, or abandoned to beasts and vermin (jermalaine are epidemic). Several are home to dragon nests.
The Maze underlies the Lowhalls and links them to the Greyhawk area. These tunnels are the "true" underdark, being primarily more than at least a mile below sea level. Beholders hunt the depths here, continually increasing the maze via their disintegration power, and the thralls of the Earth Dragon are another force nto be reckoned with near the Pomarj.
A svirfneblin city twists upward in the center of the Lortmils, bridging the maze and the Lowhalls. It has remained hidden for well over a thousand years, and continues to be so. The deep gnomes here deliberately avoid contact with the other races, despite (or because of) their proximity, but keep tabs on them with divinations and more mundane means (secret tunnels and watching posts, mostly).
The Low Road becomes smaller and better fortified in the north, and dwarfholds and gnomish steadings become more common. While nearly all sent warriors to the Hateful Wars, and continue to patrol the Low Road, the holds & steadings are fiercely independant and are more interested in mining than forming kingdoms or political organizations.
The Domain of the Iron Dragon is the exception in the peaceful north. This powerful and intelligent dragon conquered several linked dwarfholds during the Hateful Wars, while most of the dwarf warriors were away, and continues to hold them. The Iron Dragon has brought duergar to serve him (or her) from somewhere, and the grey dwarves have spent the intervening decades expanding, linking, and fortifying the three holds. Recent information suggests the duergar have ceased their construction, however, and turned their attention to manufacturing weapons and armor from the abundant iron deposits.
My thoughts are running to five "levels" to the Lortmil UD - still no "official" name ::grumble::
1st - A mountain peak level - above ground inside multiple mountains' upper heights in the range - almost an "aerial dungeon" - still working out the details of this idea. Genesis - LoTR's great eagles. What if they had a "dungeon" environment?
2nd - A cave level - a "shallow" level, immediately open to the surface, almost an "entry level." Genesis - Nellisir's "beginning dungeon" idea and the B2 Caves of Chaos concept.
3rd - "The Low Road" - Here are the major workings of the dwarves, orcs, goblins etc. It was here the heavy fighting of the Hateful Wars really took place. Very haunted and echoing now.
4th - A "deep" level - Smaller than any level but the "aerial dungeons." Very cramped, isolated, dark, damp, claustrophobic. This is where some races "retreated" during the Hateful Wars and may still be found. This is also the level where the dwarves when mining when they released "something." This is also the level where some underdark races would live/abide - Illithids, Cloakers, Grimlocks etc.
5th - The Sunless Sea - This level is one of dark beaches and narrow shelfs of rock overlooking the deep waters that underlie all of Oerth's underdarks. Access is very limited.
My thought is that there is a "secret history" to the Hateful Wars. The idea that it was a genocidal struggle between the demi-humans and humanoids is accurate but does not tell the entire story. That story has two big holes in it -
(1) Why did the demi's suddenly go on a rampage? The death of some elf? Doesn't make it for me. SOMETHING had to set in motion elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings all going to war and going to _genocidal_ war.
(2) Why did they stop before finishing the job? Sudden attack of conscience? Then the genocide was a "temporary" blood madness and now we've regained our senses are and are back to being good guys? Not buying it.
Something more had to motivate the endeavour and something more had to stop the demi's from finishing the job in the Pomarj (which was once dwarven territory).
Wars Beginning -
My thought (classically) is that the dwarves released "something." "It" allied with or easily dominated the humanoids _and_ organized them through abject fear and terror. The "something" had to be stopped by itself and that it now made the humanoids a greater threat than they had ever been before sealed the deal. Elf, dwarf, gnome and halfling were all threatened and united. Humans were kept on the periphery as the demi's did not want the humans to realize or understand that there were "dark things" of which the demi's knew or had access to that might prompt the humans to see the demi's as a threat because of their "forbidden knowledge." Still working out details on the specifics.
Wars End -
The "something" that was released was contained or destroyed. The humanoids were never the _real_ enemy. A close call averted, the demi's went back home. Not everyone agreed but when the gnomes and halflings pulled out and the elves waivered, the alliance was broken. The dwarves could not take the Pomarj by themselves and they had been responsible for releasing "it" in the first place. No one had much cause to give their counsel to "finish the job" heed.
Wars Return -
The dwarves were right. The Alliance should have finished the job. "Something" is again stirring, this time in the Drachengrabs. The humanoids are scared stiff. Even _they_ don't want to see "something" rise again. But they can hardly ask the demi's for "help." (Or can they?) Making matters worse, evil humans in the Pomarj are becoming aware that "something" is going on and they are curious. The evil humans do not have any real idea of what the "something" is but they are curious and are beginning to nose around. The "Earth Dragon" has gone silent. The dwarves who are sensing something amiss or are aware of it go unheeded - "its just those warmongering dwarves who can't reclaim their own lost halls." If nothing is done, "it" will return and this time there will be human involvement and the full story of demi-human complicity will not be able to be concealed.
Yolande knows the truth but she is lost to "it." "It" sings to her nightly. "It" has always sung to her since "its" first release. Where before she could fight "it," she can no longer. She is paralyzed and with her Celene. The "Fey Mysteries" is nothing but a cover for her behavior, cooked up by her increasingly worried courtiers, although there is a faction that actually _is_ pursuing The Fey Mysteries.
Whereas the dwarves played a key role during the Hateful Wars and the elves have played the key role in the aftermath, new demi-human race now steps to the fore, as "it" stirs again. But their role is uncertain. A force for good, before they can confront "it," they must settle an internal struggle that has gone all but unnoticed by the wider world.
Still roughing things out but the general direction my thoughts are running. _________________ GVD
I could be wrong, but there appears to be somewhat of a consensus that there needs to be a simple generic name for the whole area.
Can you post a vote for Lordark, Lorhalls, Lowdark, Lowhalls, Underlor, Lowlor, or what have you; or have you or Nellisir deside, just to get it that issue resolved and leave the more creative names to specific areas?
Perhaps "It" is some kind of extremely advanced Aboleth or Aboleth-related creature. They're usually described as extremely ancient, and they've got the power to very quickly enslave their way to power if awakened or released from whever they may lie dormant.
What of the "missing" level of the ToEE, i.e., a super -powerful fragment/alter to the EEG? This seems to be a perfectly delicious horrible thing to include in the Lortmil-underdark. The existence of such a terrible maze is hinted at in the fragmented apocrypha of the pre-Mentzer ToEE.
Should this be included/connected to the haunted Lowhalls of the Lortmils?
FL _________________ Nixiespixies and grigs OH MY!
Perhaps "It" is some kind of extremely advanced Aboleth or Aboleth-related creature. They're usually described as extremely ancient, and they've got the power to very quickly enslave their way to power if awakened or released from whever they may lie dormant.
I'd like to avoid a standard monster that players can recognize. One way to creep the players out is to deny them easy understanding or knowledge of their opponent. Make them have to engage in "trial and error" tactics.
At the same time, I'm thinking that, while "epic," the "something" would be able to appear to challenge the players at other than epic levels, though probably still at high levels. An "onion-like" "something" that has "layers" of revelation/power not just - here it is at last. THat way the "trial and error" strategy is engaged as they can face "it" more than once for all the marbles.
Maybe it is limited in some fashion? Drawing strengh but not yet "free" to exert its full might? Maybe the players risk inadvertently strengthening/freeing it more? That could be pretty scary. Particularly as they have to engage in "trial and error" tactics.
Maybe "it" even wants to encourage/ "play with" the PCs, trying to trick them into helping it somehow. "Hey, Mr. Paladin! Guess what you just did?"
What of the "missing" level of the ToEE, i.e., a super -powerful fragment/alter to the EEG? This seems to be a perfectly delicious horrible thing to include in the Lortmil-underdark. The existence of such a terrible maze is hinted at in the fragmented apocrypha of the pre-Mentzer ToEE.
Should this be included/connected to the haunted Lowhalls of the Lortmils?
FL
This is always a tough question - Is Dungeon X part of the Underdark?
Don't really have an answer. Thoughts? _________________ GVD
1). On the aboleth angle, Dragon #131 had an interesting article, "The Ecology of the Aboleth," by Brandon Crist. It includes 1E stats for a hierarchy of "greater" aboleth, all the way up to the 40 HD grand aboleth. (I am unfamiliar with 3.x, and don't know if these creatures have been developed further.) The grand aboleth -- possessing godlike intelligence, superior enslavement ability, and a telepathic link with every ruler aboleth within 10,000 miles -- could certainly reach out and organize the humanoids of the Lortmils.
2). If you prefer to use an "unknown" creature type as "It," why not blatantly steal the chthonians from the Cthulhu Mythos? They would also be a fit, and "It" could even be Shudde M'ell itself! In this way PC's could work their way up to "It" by first encountering smaller, lesser chthonians.
This is always a tough question - Is Dungeon X part of the Underdark?
Don't really have an answer. Thoughts?
If by Dungeon X, you mean, is every dungeon part of the Underdark, then no. When I think of the UnderOerth, I think fragmented vaults here and there, with perhaps a few tunnels, caverns connecting them, rather than a huge network (FR style).
Okay. Names. How about the "Dwarf Dark" or the "Dwarven Dark?"
This would imagine that the dwarves were the dominate race in the Lortmils. The gnomes have the Kron Hills. The elves have Celene and surrounding woodlands. The halflings are in Esmerin (mythically) and otherwise the western piedmont region.
Okay. Names. How about the "Dwarf Dark" or the "Dwarven Dark?"
This would imagine that the dwarves were the dominate race in the Lortmils. The gnomes have the Kron Hills. The elves have Celene and surrounding woodlands. The halflings are in Esmerin (mythically) and otherwise the western piedmont region.
Dwarf Dark?
Dwarven Dark?
Thoughts?
I like it, but, to be truly Greyhawkian, it would have to be Dwurdark.
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