Back in 1991, when 2nd Edition was new, the "Monstrous Compendium" was done in hole punched three-ring binder format. I was reading through the Outer Planes Appendix and happened upon this interesting tidbit (pp. 7-8)
"Mordenkainen is a powerful mage from Oerth. He suggests that a day will come when the plotting of the baatezu will come to fruition and a gate will be opened into the Prime Material Plane. The following is excerpted from the Codex of Mordenkainen: . . . I prepared all as had been described in the ancient tomes. Every detail was checked a dozen times to insure it was correct, and then it was checked a dozen more times. When all was complete, I performed the act that caused me to pass into a deep sleep in which I dreamed dreams of both history and prophesy. I learned of many things during that ritual, but of one thing did I learn much: the Blood War.
It was shown to me that the great evil of the two pits of darkness were engaged in a battle of infinity. They clashed together in endless energy and struggle and would likely continue to clash for ever and ever.
When I had seen this battle I shuddered and a great fear came over me. I was inclined to break the trance and leave my dream state. But then I viewed a frightening sight. A thousand times a thousand strands of unknown substance extended from infinity to infinity. They were coils of time and written upon them were the histories of all deeds and places. They passed through all things in their way and tied all things together. And when I saw that the strand that spoke of the Blood War passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind, I truly knew fear."
That last sentence is interesting. And I have no clue what it might mean.
Further text, not attributed to Modenkainen, preceeds the above passage from the Codex of Mordenkainen and reads:
"Whatever its origins, mankind plays but a small role in the geat war. As far as either the baatezu or the tanar'ri are concerned, mankind merely exists to be dominated in order to provide a foothold in the endless war. It is possible that the Prime Material plane itself holds some sort of energy that woukld be valuable in the waging of the Blood War - mankind may be merely the innocent bystander in the efforts of the fiends."
I'm still not sure about that last sentence from the Codex, however - "passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind"
Anyone got any ideas?
PS - I also find it interesting that only "the plotting of the baatezu will come to fruition" with no mention of the tanar'ri. _________________ GVD
I'm still not sure about that last sentence from the Codex, however - "passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind"
Anyone got any ideas?
PS - I also find it interesting that only "the plotting of the baatezu will come to fruition" with no mention of the tanar'ri.
Since you asked
Passing through the heart of mankind...
I take to mean, the Baatezu and Tanar'ri are both encouraging and corrupting mankind through man's own evil desires and promoting conflict where possible for their own benefit.
How much happier a place GH would be without the Baatezu and Tanar'ri whispering tempting promises into ears.
As for the Baatezu plotting comment, simply expresses Mordenkainen's view that the methodical planning of the Baatezu is the graver threat to mankind then the brutal but largely opportunistic methods employed by the Tanar'ri.
Here's an off kilter idea, taken straight from the movie The Prophecy. Maybe the Bloodwar is unwinable b/c both Hell and the Abyss are incapable of outwiting one another to a victor. But somewhere on the mortal plane is a being who is wholly evil and strategically genius enough to tip the scales in some fashion. Maybe the Demon Lords and Archdevils are covertly scouring the prime for this would be general who can give them the edge. But until this prophesized person is revealed all they can do is jockey for position in hopes he falls in their sphere of control. Undoubtedly the Assimar would like to slay this evil person first as well. So this plot is kinda a mirror image of the movie's conflict between angels.
Also:
Perhaps it was madness that compelled me to scry into the Abyss, or perhaps it was my ever growing hunger for knowledge. Both, I think, are equal curses.
When I caused my mighty crystal of scrying to open into the great Abyss, I saw a sight quite simply unfit for mortal eyes to view. The great writing mass of torment and hatred that extended infinitely in all directions tore my soul asunder and caused me to weep.
And as I scryed I became aware of an ancient war, a war of death, a war of blood! And soon I looked upon a place where darkness coalesced into substance, where hatred was given life and breath. I saw a pillar of flame that extended up into the sky and it rose from a base of torment. And the dead of the Abyss lined the base and their wails brought horror to my heart. The pillar took on images of torture and corruption so vile that I could scarcely look upon it.
Aren't there more entries from the Codex of Mordenkainen in the newer LGJ mags somewhere?
It is alluded too in the LGG iirc. On the cover of that book his new appearance is first revealed. Could be my own imagination gone wild though too. With the older quotes from his codex being from long time ago 2E...
Hi folks. I'm stealing a few moments from Lendor's Matrix and saw this interesting thread.
I like the connection between Mordenkainen's revelations and his change of appearance. One might also factor in the deaths of the majority of the Circle of 8, if one incorporates that part of Vecna Lives! into one's campaigns.
Beyond echoing that LGJ 0 holds a greatly informative article by Iquander, "Wheels within Wheels," I'm posting to remind or inform people about an old notion about the strife between demons and dragons on Oerth.
I've now forgotten who shared this vision. It may have been Sobrach, who authored a version of the Lortmil Mountains in an early OJ, but I think it was someone else--a woman, who posted in the AOL folder in the summer of 1998.
Her idea, as I remember it, was that the dragons, exhibiting their elemental correspondences, were ancient protectors of Oerth, wards against the demons (and perhaps other Outer Planar malevolence). She riffed this idea out of the old story about Clonoc, that demon-possessed bronze dragon, who once harried the way between Highvale and Perrenland.
Part of her posts used this posited antagonism between demons and dragons to explain the relative scarcity of dragons at the end of the 6th century of the Common Years.
Another aspect of this idea related the Fire Kings, mentioned in a later source (by Roger Moore? or was it the 1e DMG on artifacts and relics?) in connection with the fall of the ancient Suloise Empire. As I recall, the eruptions of the Hellfurnaces were not only related to the Rain of Colorless Fire but also to the Binders (from Steve Wilson's old chronologies, which were related to/inspired by correspondence with Len Lakofka, iirc).
I think I'll stop with that bit. If anyone else remembers this idea or feels inspired by it, please share!
And when I saw that the strand that spoke of the Blood War passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind, I truly knew fear."
According to the old 2E boxset Hellbound: The Blood War, mortals are necessary (paramount even) to the conflict because utlimately they provide the troops for it. It goes something like this: Demons and Devils tempt mortals to tyranny and slaughter so that when they die they become pettitioners of the lower planes (lemures, larvae and dretches). The vilest and most despicable of these creatures are ultimately 'promoted' into greater fiendish forms (the Demons and Devils we know and love). The more mortals that are swayed to your evil cause, the more fiends you have and the greater ascendancy of your plane.
This totally jives with Mortellan's 'Prophecy' idea. Really powerful evil mortals are prime targets to be seduced to either chaos or law since their souls have the promise to become major fiends and have a tremendous impact on the blood war. However, I think the powers of good would want to redeem the individual before their death rather than destory them. A redeemed villain's soul would go to the upper planes on death and become a pettitioner there, denying both the Demons and Devils of their prize.
Good observation, Dave. Hellbound is something I've not had a chance to look over. I guess the Blood War was a concept that didn't catch fire outside Planescape even to the best attempts to attach Mordy to it.
Another aspect of this idea related the Fire Kings, mentioned in a later source (by Roger Moore? or was it the 1e DMG on artifacts and relics?) in connection with the fall of the ancient Suloise Empire. As I recall, the eruptions of the Hellfurnaces were not only related to the Rain of Colorless Fire but also to the Binders (from Steve Wilson's old chronologies, which were related to/inspired by correspondence with Len Lakofka, iirc).
This is from Dragon #230, p.8
The Orbs of Dragonkind, by Roger E. Moore
An adventurer starter for the post-Wars Greyhawk
My interpetation of this passage was simply that Mordenkainen saw that the Oerth was destined to become a Blood War battlefield.
This is the process that began with Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes, when Iuz with his demon troops overran the northern Flanaess, and the House of Naelex became so deeply entwined in infernal politics (thanks to the intervention of Baalzephon) that it could never unravel itself.
What Mordenkainen saw was that ultimately the armies of Hell and the Abyss would put aside their mortal instruments and face one another directly - billions of fiends pouring out of portals into the Flanaess to wreck and destroy it with weapons beyond mortal imagining. They cannot do this without mortal aid - but this is something they have.
This process was checked temporarily by the Crook of Rao on the one hand and the destruction of Rauxes on the other. It has not, however, been permanently stopped - Iuz will ultimately find a source of new demonic minions, and the Horned Society will take over the Northern Kingdom, and the countdown will begin again.
I think this vision was the defining turning point in Mordenkainen's life, transforming him from a typical greedy adventurer to the fierce proponent of the Balance he is today. Whether he seeks to manipulate the Balance to prevent this cataclysm or whether he is so far gone that he now sees it as necessary in the larger cosmic scheme is unclear.
I don't believe it means that Oerth will permanently influence the Blood War one way or another - I see it as just another casualty among many. Other worlds have died in this way, and Oerth will neither be the first nor the last.
What Mordenkainen saw was that ultimately the armies of Hell and the Abyss would put aside their mortal instruments and face one another directly - billions of fiends pouring out of portals into the Flanaess to wreck and destroy it with weapons beyond mortal imagining. They cannot do this without mortal aid - but this is something they have.
This process was checked temporarily by the Crook of Rao on the one hand and the destruction of Rauxes on the other. It has not, however, been permanently stopped - Iuz will ultimately find a source of new demonic minions, and the Horned Society will take over the Northern Kingdom, and the countdown will begin again. . . .
I don't believe it means that Oerth will permanently influence the Blood War one way or another - I see it as just another casualty among many. Other worlds have died in this way, and Oerth will neither be the first nor the last.
I do not see this reading at all. The Flight of Fiends ended, unless future GH authors are mad, the notion that Oerth is nothing but a lower planar battlefield. There is also P Smedger's notes on Oerth's future as well as the Greyhawk 2000 future history. Either IMO is preferable to the scenario where Oerth gets blow away as a a mere battlefield in "The Blood War." _________________ GVD
I do not see this reading at all. The Flight of Fiends ended, unless future GH authors are mad, the notion that Oerth is nothing but a lower planar battlefield. There is also P Smedger's notes on Oerth's future as well as the Greyhawk 2000 future history. Either IMO is preferable to the scenario where Oerth gets blow away as a a mere battlefield in "The Blood War."
I didn't say it was a preferable result, or that anyone would like the idea of destroying the Oerth in a pointless skirmish, only that it's a likely one. That doesn't mean, of course, that it's inevitable, only that fiendish machinations are still an ongoing threat and thus a useful plot device in the future.
The Flight of Fiends, however, was too much of a deus ex machina for me to see it as a permanent fix. It's a temporary reprieve at best.
And when I saw that the strand that spoke of the Blood War passed through the lower planes and then directly through the heart of mankind, I truly knew fear."
My take(developed from reading various sources) on the link between the Blood War and Mankind is very simple, but it seems to explain the above quote.
The Blood War will always be linked to mankind (and to a much lesser extent the other races). This is because of the competition between the rulers of the lower planes to father souls to their cause. When a human servant of the lower planes dies, their soul goes right to that plane, and usually takes the form of the lowliest creature of that plane's inhabitants. For the most part, these souls will become manes, lemures, or larvae. Two of those three make up the bulk of the hordes of Hell and the Abyss, while the third is most often used as a form of currency in the lower planes.
From these base forms are created imps, quasits, and lesser demons and devils. From there, promising specimens are elevated to greater demons or greater devils, the elite shock troops and commanders of the Blood War.
Power in the lower planes is directly influenced by how many human servants' souls the lower planar Lords of Evil can call to their banners. And so the Blood War will always be directly tied to Mankind on the prime material plane. Everything stems from the human souls.
Kind of makes you wonder if some of the arch-devils and demon lords might not have once begun their existence as humans; if so, they would be from a time lost to the history of the worlds from whence they came. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I'd have to go with Rasgon on this. The FtA era stuff detailed the machinations of various devils and demons in relation the the Flanaess. They're not going to be put off by something like the Flight of Fiends. The Oerth will be threatened by fiends in the future, I think that's pretty much a given. Whether they succeed or not, of course, is in the hands of valient adventurers (when isn't it?).
It makes a difference whether the Flight of Fiends was a one-time banishment effect or whether it actually erected a barrier between Oerth and the Abyss. If the former is the case, Iuz may have difficulty convincing his previous Abyssal contacts to invest in his efforts, but others may not be so scrupulous.
If the latter is the case, it will now be harder for all summmoners to bring Abyssal creatures - and perhaps creatures from other planes as well - into the mortal world (or perhaps only within the Empire of Iuz). Harder, but not impossible - clever conjurors might summon demons from parallel worlds that lack this sort of holy shielding, and of course if Tharizdun can be freed, the Crook of Rao's power can be shattered, perhaps by finding and destroying the Crook itself, or possibly just by disturbing Canon Hazen from the constant concentration he must maintain within his divine coma.
It makes a difference whether the Flight of Fiends was a one-time banishment effect or whether it actually erected a barrier between Oerth and the Abyss.
I do not see this reading at all. The Flight of Fiends ended, unless future GH authors are mad, the notion that Oerth is nothing but a lower planar battlefield.
I didn't say it was a preferable result, or that anyone would like the idea of destroying the Oerth in a pointless skirmish, only that it's a likely one. That doesn't mean, of course, that it's inevitable, only that fiendish machinations are still an ongoing threat and thus a useful plot device in the future.
The Flight of Fiends, however, was too much of a deus ex machina for me to see it as a permanent fix. It's a temporary reprieve at best.
We are speaking here of the metagame. No GH author in his or her right mind would allow Oerth to _again_ see armies of summoned fiends flailing away at each other while tearing up the setting. That is over. Done. The Flight of Fiends ended that storyline from a metatext perspective unless a future GH author is crazy and decides on Greyhawk War II - The Return of the Fiends. IMO, _THAT_ is un-likely.
Of course, fiends will continue to be summoned and will continue to fight over Oerth _BUT_ armies of fiends on a sustained basis, like FtA pre-Flight of Fiends, will not reoccur. The metagame reasoning is nearly unassailable. Having done the "fiend war," why do it again?
It is much more likely that fiendish plots will be far more subtle.
To the degree that we again see "fiendish armies mustering," they will be handled as they were in Return of the Eight and Isle of the Ape - they are threatened but the adventurers stop them by the end of the adventure.
It is hard to say "never" but IMO there will never again be large standing fiendish armies on Oerth, as was the case with Iuz, Almor and the GK in FtA, waging war on each other and then/thus dominating the setting or major portions of it. Pure metagame reason why. Been there. Done that. Grandly and over the top.
The Bloodwar will not be fought on Oerth as a "hot war" but as a "cold war" with "wet work" operations, sure, but falling short of armies on the march. _________________ GVD
If the big players like Iuz, Iggwilv and maybe even the Horned Ones, etc. won't be using fiends en masse, then they have to win it through humanoid might? Undead? That always goes over well. I didn't really see the impact of Flight of Fiends personally, it gave Furyondy/Shield Lands a chance to counter but Hazen would've been better off sundering the sources of so many fiends entering Oerth then killing off the rest the good old fashioned way.
I wasn't. In-game rationales are far more interesting to me than what the published authors may or may not decide to do.
In any case, I believe that Carl Sargent was thinking of this passage when he made the fiendish armies a central part of his From the Ashes-era material.
As for what it might still mean now that that era is over, that's of course up to the individual DM.
If the big players like Iuz, Iggwilv and maybe even the Horned Ones, etc. won't be using fiends en masse, then they have to win it through humanoid might? Undead? That always goes over well. I didn't really see the impact of Flight of Fiends personally, it gave Furyondy/Shield Lands a chance to counter but Hazen would've been better off sundering the sources of so many fiends entering Oerth then killing off the rest the good old fashioned way.
Depends on "win it." There is proverbally more than one way to skin a screaming sacrifice.
Brute force of arms is but one method and one I would argue largely unbecoming entities of genius or near genius intelligence that are the embodiment of metaphysical principles. The best victory is one won by wits, particularly if the victim willingly damns themself. This is where temptation, corruption and blasphemy all come into play, nicely set out as templates or Prcs, I forget which, in either the 3x Fiend Folio or MMIII. This is where "sin" comes in.
To have the arch-devils and demon princes no more than lower planar generals with poor dispositions bent on rolling the multiversal tanks across Oerth is, IMO, a complete waste of potential. If it is going to be a pure fist fight with no "sin" then nothing prevents the celestials from intervening, as well. Only mortals' "free will" to resist evil stays the celestials' hand to begin with, the idea that mortals must choose to resist evil, and that is off the boards if it is just a matter of brute force to be applied.
This is a problem, among many, with FtA. It cheapened devils and demons, transforming them into badass infantry when they are, in fact, the incarnation of philosophic ideals, which is far more "scary" and conducive to interesting adventures than just badass infantry. Trolls and umberhulks make badass infantry. Devils and demons can and should be so much more.
Removing the "lower planar invasion" angle is a boon. Besides, lets see, GH has had _THREE_ already! Iggwilv I (Isle of the Ape), Iuz and Ivid (GH Wars) and Iggwilv II (Return of the Eight). Been there. Done that. Two abortions and one successful invasion until the Crook. Do we need more invasions from the planes, successful or threatened? Are we that out of ideas?
Note - Rasgon. No discussion of such matters may be divorced from metagame concepts unless we are arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is a _game_ and we mostly , I think, DMs and opinionated players. The metagame reality necessarily colors the "in game" reality. Your reading/proposal runs afoul of both as in both - been there, done that. I resist making the fiends or GH one trick ponies. Or two or three trick ponies as in the present case. _________________ GVD
Generally speaking, the entities in question are not the great rulers of entire planar layers. Baalzephon, the chief architect of Aerdy's ruin, is one of the Dark Eight - an order of pit fiends - and she is indeed more of a general of armies (specifically, she's the Minister of Supply to Hell's legions) than a grand personification of all that is ordered evil. Though she is certainly a power to be reckoned with on her plane, she has the ambitions of seven other ministers to deal with; Lord Dagos, in particular, is keen for military action whatever the front, and Baalzephon understandably throws him a bone on occasion, and she may need to again. Pazuzu and Graz'zt are certainly beings of a higher order, but I'd argue that the recent troubles on Oerth were merely a passing diversion for them. Graz'zt, in particular, cares little for the ambitions of the wicked lords of Law, and indeed has secretly proposed an alliance with them against the forces of Good - that is not to say that he is any less chaotic than his peers, but his methods are different.
Pazuzu will indeed likely not try the same scheme a second time - his alliance with Duke Szeffrin is likely unique on this time and world. He may also, as I intimated above, refuse to grant Iuz any further troops after the latest failure. But it is Iuz - and, probably, Iggwilv behind him - who hold the primary threat of demonic invasion, and they may indeed seek another path. That's not to say subtlety is beyond either of them - Iuz is the Lord of Deception, and his mother its mistress - but I don't think either are willing to concede yet that their war is over. The Flight of Fiends is just one defeat in a much longer war, and certainly neither mother nor son is above direct military action if they feel the situation warrants it.
In addition, I'm uncertain if Pazuzu's Bloodcrystal experiment has actually failed. Browsing the Nyrond website, it seems Bloodcrystal and its demons still exist, even if Szeffrin does not.
Generally, you're correct - Graz'zt and Pazuzu (and Baalzephon) are subtle beings whose schemes work invisibly on many worlds, layers, and planes at once. But none of them shrink from brute force of arms at times, any more than Iuz and Iggwilv do.
Nothing, of course, prevents the celestials from interfering, and I would argue that they've been interfering behind the scenes all along - it's only the short shrift the game customarily gives celestial beings that prevents this from being clear. A four-way combat between demons, devils, archons, and eladrins would be even more destructive than one where only demons and devils were involved, however, so they will save this as a last resort.
As far as metaplot goes, the needs of each individual campaign - as well as what's already happened and what hasn't - vary, and I don't think the needs of the campaign as it's been published are necessarily the most relevant thing.
Another thing to keep in mind is the Great War plot that Sargent brought to the table in FtA (which I personally like a lot). It might not involve massed ranks of fiends (though I like to think it might) and it might not happen tomorrow or even in 50 years, but sometime between 595 CY and 998 CY, the Great War will come to the Flanaess, IMO.
My take on it is that the Flight of Fiends has deferred the onset of the War perhaps for a century or two. In the meantime, the Flanaess can have an age of discovery and make contacts (peaceful or otherwise) with other states on Oerik and Anakeris. There'll be prosperity, there'll be poverty, there'll be small and not so small wars, there'll be heroism, treachery, comedy and tragedy - but all the while, the wheel still turns towards the inevitable conflict to decide the fate, not just of the Flanaess, but of the Oerth itself.
Another thought to consider is that GH has, by its nature been Flanaess specific. Igqwilv and Grazzt and Pazerel and the rest have all been terrible concerned with events in eastern Oerik.
Now you could take a pre-Copernican view of this and assume the Flanaess is where its at in terms of Events of Import on the Oerth. Or you could take the post-Copernican view that the Flanaess is just one theatre in a world-wide struggle. Baalzephon might have been foiled in his "takeover" of the Great Kingdom, but what if his servants rule supreme (purely for example) the Celestial/Sufhang Empire?
Actually further to that and addressing the original point of the thread -
So why is the Oerth so important? Well - you could say that fiends are trying to take over a lot of worlds and that would be true. Or, as I prefer to think of it, there's something special about the Oerth. Perhaps it has a central and strategic position on the axes of alternate worlds that is the multiverse. My thought is that it's the keystone to the lattice of crystal spheres/prime material planes*, which in its Supremely Ordered arrangement, form the prison for the ultimate Entropy - known to the peoples of the Flanaess as Tharizidun (thus, the breaking of the prison and the freeing of Tharizdun brings about the destruction of all existance and with it the delicate orrery of the Outer Planes).
Control the keystone, and you hold a gun to the head of the multiverse (to paraphrase a line from HALO).
P.
* An idea I shamelessly swiped from Zenith, a British graphic novel series.
It is alluded too in the LGG iirc. On the cover of that book his new appearance is first revealed. Could be my own imagination gone wild though too. With the older quotes from his codex being from long time ago 2E...
So why is the Oerth so important? Well - you could say that fiends are trying to take over a lot of worlds and that would be true. Or, as I prefer to think of it, there's something special about the Oerth. Perhaps it has a central and strategic position on the axes of alternate worlds that is the multiverse.
Basically, this is my opinion as well, upon which I will elaborate in a topical submission that should be coming up any time now - D&Demons: Oerth War. _________________ GVD
I think Roger E. Moore, in his Gates of Oerth article, said that Oerth has an unusual number of natural portals in it, and this is one reason it has attracted the attention of so many cosmic powers.
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