I'm currently preparing to DM a new campaign with first level characters. As a long term goal, I would like the player's to lead into "Vecna Lives!". In order to do that, I intend to introduce occasional foreshadowing... the campaign should have some subtle, but common threads linking most of the adventures from levels 1 through to however high they get when we play "Vecna Lives!" (if ever... given how infrequently we play, we'll probably all be grand dads by the time we're ready for that adventure!).
Having skimmed the adventure, I must agree with many posters on these boards that as is, it's a pretty poor module (a great deal of rail roading, giving Iuz the main responsibility for defeating Vecna, etc., etc.). Nevertheless, I think some aspects of the story are worth salvaging and converting to a 3.5 game.
That having been said, I have a few questions... On p. 7 of the adventure, it says that "working through his avatar, the Whispered One has carefully found seven magical items.Each item has been placed in a secret location, the position strategic to his plans. These items, when fully powered, will cast a mystical web of energy over all of Oerth, cutting off all other gods from their followers... There is only one difficulty that remains for Vecna -- finding his Hand and Eye."
As far as I can tell, the 7 items are never identified in the adventure. I would appreciate your thoughts on the following:
a) Why seven items? Given that Vecna is trying to supplant the greater gods of Oerth, could the 7 items be associated with the 7 deities that had Greater God status in 2nd ed. (i.e., Beory, Boccob, Incabulos, Istus, Nerull, Pelor and Rao)?
b) What might the 7 items have been, and why? How would those items have interacted to project a web of energy that will cover the Oerth? I have skimmed "Die Vecna Die" and doubt that the items in question are Vecna's various other body parts, or that the two tablets inscribed with a true dweomer in the Language Primeval are among them.
c) Where might he have placed the 7 items, and why? Given the the items should be producing a web of energy that would cover the entire Oerth, I would assume that they would have to have been scattered all over the planet (as a demigod, Vecna presumably could travel with great ease all over Oerth), and not just across the Flanaess (although the latter option would be much more convenient, from a DM perspective). Suggestions for specific locations and rationale behind the placements would be appreciated.
Answers/suggestions for the above might help me introduce plot hooks around the 7 items long before the party plays "Vecna Lives!"...
A few other questions related to the module...
d) Given that other deities dwell on the material plane (e.g., Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, etc.), why would they not intercede in the events detailed in the module? Aside from the designer railroading the story, are there canon reasons why Iuz alone would come to challenge Vecna?
e) Assuming that Iuz plunged into the gateway with Vecna at the end of the adventure (p. 67)... We know that after the plunge, Vecna gets sucked into Ravenloft, but what happens to Iuz? How does he get back to Oerth in time to impersonate Vatun and initiate the Greyhawk Wars??? As far as I can tell, this tale is ignored by canon, which otherwise assumes that the two demigods did go down together in the gateway.
Regarding d): Fharlangh and Beory are of course bound by the godly nonintervention pact. Almost all other Prime dwelling deities are demi or quasi deities. Why they didn't intervene? Not sure. BTW Ehlonna dwells in the Beastlands/Krigala/The Grove of the Unicorns.
BTW Ehlonna dwells in the Beastlands/Krigala/The Grove of the Unicorns.
Bah! Ehlonna dwells on the Prime Material Plane, as written by EGG and published in the original DRAGON® presentation of "Greyhawk's Gods." Editions may change, rules may change, but I can't see anyone evicting Ehlonna from the Prime.
As far as I can tell, the 7 items are never identified in the adventure. I would appreciate your thoughts on the following:
a) Why seven items? Given that Vecna is trying to supplant the greater gods of Oerth, could the 7 items be associated with the 7 deities that had Greater God status in 2nd ed. (i.e., Beory, Boccob, Incabulos, Istus, Nerull, Pelor and Rao)?
Logical idea. It sort of runs with the 9 trapped gods by Zagyg and the 5 Blades of the Corusk summoning Vatun.
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b) What might the 7 items have been, and why? How would those items have interacted to project a web of energy that will cover the Oerth? I have skimmed "Die Vecna Die" and doubt that the items in question are Vecna's various other body parts, or that the two tablets inscribed with a true dweomer in the Language Primeval are among them.
Well you can go one of three ways:
1) Create new items from scratch. Maybe Vecna made these items back in his ancient empire and just now dug them up, or they are new items from his godhood.
2) Use well known GH artifacts that of course aren't already vouched for. Maybe the Regalia of Might or Orbs of Dragonkind. The Rod of Seven Parts would fit nicely but I'm not sure they have quite that power when combined.
3) Have the 7 items be magical locations instead, sort of like in the 3.5 DMG 2. These locations then could require their own rituals to activate much like Tovag.
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c) Where might he have placed the 7 items, and why? Given the the items should be producing a web of energy that would cover the entire Oerth, I would assume that they would have to have been scattered all over the planet (as a demigod, Vecna presumably could travel with great ease all over Oerth), and not just across the Flanaess (although the latter option would be much more convenient, from a DM perspective). Suggestions for specific locations and rationale behind the placements would be appreciated.
I'd spread them out for sure. If you go with my #3 idea, the locations ARE the items too. Anyhow, Hepmonaland, Land of Black Ice and the Sea of Dust are obvious choices. Beyond that, Fireland, Komal, Polaria, Zindia, and many other places on Oerth could be used as a launchpad to exploring the globe.
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d) Given that other deities dwell on the material plane (e.g., Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, etc.), why would they not intercede in the events detailed in the module? Aside from the designer railroading the story, are there canon reasons why Iuz alone would come to challenge Vecna?
I think Iuz's involvement is directly addressed in the plot of Vecna Lices. He is also integral in Die Vecna Die. Beyond Iuz, the other Prime deities seem to have a passive arrogance to interference. Like in the Sourcebook, Iuz the Evil, the Vesve Forest is despoiled in a huge way. Ehlonna and Obad Hai don't show up. Fharlanghn is not only a traveller he is probably just a tourist/observer and at best a 'good samaritan', but certainly he wouldn't take on Iuz.
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e) Assuming that Iuz plunged into the gateway with Vecna at the end of the adventure (p. 67)... We know that after the plunge, Vecna gets sucked into Ravenloft, but what happens to Iuz? How does he get back to Oerth in time to impersonate Vatun and initiate the Greyhawk Wars??? As far as I can tell, this tale is ignored by canon, which otherwise assumes that the two demigods did go down together in the gateway.
Iuz got lucky? Maybe Iuz had contingencies to avoid that sort of disaster, like having his soul object hid. Maybe Ravenloft had its choice of the two and spit the other back. Vecna has a few years on even the Old One in the evil department after all.
a) Why seven items? Given that Vecna is trying to supplant the greater gods of Oerth, could the 7 items be associated with the 7 deities that had Greater God status in 2nd ed. (i.e., Beory, Boccob, Incabulos, Istus, Nerull, Pelor and Rao)?
b) What might the 7 items have been, and why?
If you go with this idea, a possibility for the artifact associated with Istus would be Rillikandren's Book of Hours, as described in Ivid the Undying. This was traded to a High Priest of Boccob by an Avatar of Istus. One would have to pinch the Book from Rillikandren first, of course, and if the usual continuity is observed, it is back in his hands by 585 CY, but it might be worth a thought.
Well you can go one of three ways:
1) Create new items from scratch. Maybe Vecna made these items back in his ancient empire and just now dug them up, or they are new items from his godhood.
2) Use well known GH artifacts that of course aren't already vouched for. Maybe the Regalia of Might or Orbs of Dragonkind. The Rod of Seven Parts would fit nicely but I'm not sure they have quite that power when combined.
3) Have the 7 items be magical locations instead, sort of like in the 3.5 DMG 2. These locations then could require their own rituals to activate much like Tovag.
I'd rather not invent new artifacts from scratch. I run a low magic campaign, and there are already so many magic items and artifacts in the D&D game that I don't see a point in designing items from scratch when I have yet to use any of the ones found in published sources. I'm sure something out there will fit the bill. I think I'll pass on the Rod of Seven parts -- it already has its own boxed adventure, and I don't want to dive into that right away. I do very much like your suggestion that the 7 items could be locations--I'll have to give it some thought. A few items in the 2nd ed Book of Artifacts caught my eye, and one of them stood out in particular: Kuroth's Quill.
"While the quill will grant wishes and alter reality, there is always a price to be paid; for every boon there is a bane. Illegible or smudged words are omitted from the request entirely. Misspelled words are substituted to the best of the Quill's ability... Even correctly written requests have a monkey's paw effect. The pen does not create things; rather, it draws upon existing material to grant the wish..." (Boof of Artifacts, p. 51)
I could see Vecna writing down his wish to become a greater god with Kuroth's Quill during the ritual at Tovag. The Quill would grant his wish in a twisted way by invoking the mists of Ravenloft through the portal to whisk the arch-lich into the demi-plane of dread, where he will effectively be the only god of his prison domain. Iuz would be spared Vecna's fate because although he is more than evil enough and he certainly aspires to be more than a mere demi-god, he did not have the audacity to word such a wish or to use the Quill (how Iuz gets back to Dorakaa is another question, but it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a plausible solution for that one). How does that sound?
Prochytes wrote:
If you go with this idea, a possibility for the artifact associated with Istus would be Rillikandren's Book of Hours, as described in Ivid the Undying. This was traded to a High Priest of Boccob by an Avatar of Istus. One would have to pinch the Book from Rillikandren first, of course, and if the usual continuity is observed, it is back in his hands by 585 CY, but it might be worth a thought.
Thanks for the suggestion, Prochytes. I printed out "Ivid the Undying" years ago, but still haven't read it... now I have a reason to. I wonder what kind of interaction would come from putting Kuroth's Quill to this Book of Hours in the midst of a ceremony held in the middle of Tovag Baragu?
Other items that caught my eye in the Book of Artifacts are the Book with no End, the Codex of the Infinite Planes, and perhaps even the Throne of the Gods... but I am reluctant to have too many major artifacts involved in the plot line (or falling from the sky into Vecna's hands), so I'll have to be selective. One or two artifacts and a bunch of magical locations or lesser items should be plenty.
Mortellan wrote:
I think Iuz's involvement is directly addressed in the plot of Vecna Lices. He is also integral in Die Vecna Die. Beyond Iuz, the other Prime deities seem to have a passive arrogance to interference. Like in the Sourcebook, Iuz the Evil, the Vesve Forest is despoiled in a huge way. Ehlonna and Obad Hai don't show up. Fharlanghn is not only a traveller he is probably just a tourist/observer and at best a 'good samaritan', but certainly he wouldn't take on Iuz.
Yes, Iuz's involvement is directly addressed in those adventures. I was just curious about the non-involvement of the other deities... your explanations are logical.
Still running with the "associated artifact" idea...
The recent issue of Dragon spotlighting Boccob included a few nifty minor artifacts connected with the Uncaring, one of which might fit the bill as his associated item of power. I lent that issue to a friend, but I think that they included:
* A staff of power with the additional ability to create a disc of concordant opposition, fashioned by a powerful Oeridian mage in the noontide of Aerdy.
* A crystal ball with additional abilities, probably created by a Suloise exile around the time of the Twin Cataclysms.
* Razor bands of the Archimage, an item resembling iron bands of Bilarro, but with additional abilities stemming from Boccob's own blessing.
None of these artifacts is old canon, but the first two at least come with a Greyhawk-compatible history attached. Moreover, they fulfil your criterion of not being world-shaking items like the Throne of the Gods. I hope that this helps.
I do very much like your suggestion that the 7 items could be locations--I'll have to give it some thought. A few items in the 2nd ed Book of Artifacts caught my eye, and one of them stood out in particular: Kuroth's Quill.
The material from my page, along with additional info from Erik Mona appeared in Dragons 294/Living Greyhawk Journal 10 and 299/LGJ 15. 294 detailed various artifacts, including my take on Kuroth's Quill, and 299 presented a more polished version of my list of artifacts. There's some info here on CF! that was cut from the final article, too: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=268
TwiceBorn wrote:
"While the quill will grant wishes and alter reality, there is always a price to be paid; for every boon there is a bane. Illegible or smudged words are omitted from the request entirely. Misspelled words are substituted to the best of the Quill's ability... Even correctly written requests have a monkey's paw effect. The pen does not create things; rather, it draws upon existing material to grant the wish..." (Boof of Artifacts, p. 51)
I could see Vecna writing down his wish to become a greater god with Kuroth's Quill during the ritual at Tovag. The Quill would grant his wish in a twisted way by invoking the mists of Ravenloft through the portal to whisk the arch-lich into the demi-plane of dread, where he will effectively be the only god of his prison domain. Iuz would be spared Vecna's fate because although he is more than evil enough and he certainly aspires to be more than a mere demi-god, he did not have the audacity to word such a wish or to use the Quill (how Iuz gets back to Dorakaa is another question, but it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a plausible solution for that one). How does that sound?
That sounds very reasonable to me: I've always liked the idea of using artifacts for specific, epic purposes, almost like they're "disposable" in some sense, in that once that purpose is accomplished, they're then irrelevant (though perhaps still useful). I didn't employ the Book of Artifacts as part of my research for the LGJ articles, as it's a 2e book that I don't own, so I'm not familiar with that book's take on Kuroth's Quill.
TwiceBorn wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion, Prochytes. I printed out "Ivid the Undying" years ago, but still haven't read it... now I have a reason to. I wonder what kind of interaction would come from putting Kuroth's Quill to this Book of Hours in the midst of a ceremony held in the middle of Tovag Baragu?
Fun :D There are some hints in Ivid about lines of magical influence beginning to form between the Lynerden the Spinner/ artifacts held in relatively-close proximity by Prince Lakaster of Winetha (Talisman of Krevell, Wand of Lyndern the Spinner) and Delgath of Rinloru (Mace of Krevell, Helm of Lynerden the Spinner). I like this idea a lot, in terms of the "wake" that artifacts may leave in their local environs, and expand on it some in my materials cut from the article.
TwiceBorn wrote:
Other items that caught my eye in the Book of Artifacts are the Book with no End
There was an early Dungeon Magazine adventure featuring such an artifact; is it the same item?
TwiceBorn wrote:
the Codex of the Infinite Planes, and perhaps even the Throne of the Gods... but I am reluctant to have too many major artifacts involved in the plot line (or falling from the sky into Vecna's hands), so I'll have to be selective. One or two artifacts and a bunch of magical locations or lesser items should be plenty.
FWIW, I've always treated the Throne of the Gods as a magical location, given that it's fixed in place. In the case of my campaigns, it's affixed to the side of the Wall of the Worlds' End mountains that overlook the Seas of Chaos, in Limbo; this area is reminiscent of Moorcock's chaotic edge of the Young Kingdoms, where primal creation meets the edge of defined reality. From the Throne, someone of sufficient power and imagination can create new realities. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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