Over on this tread, Poll: Why I didn’t participate in Postfest:, http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1944, it was discovered a significant number of people have not submitted articles because they are nervous about being make to look foolish or unknowledgeable. I hope we can change this. How about some idea in that direction? Some were expressed in the other thread, but we can focus on them here. Here a few:
Osmund-Davizid: “As far as the 'first time poster' factor: Maybe we can have a special Postfest for first time submittors only. Don't know if that would draw a lot of people, but we could float the idea out on Greytalk or the WotC forums and see if that generates any interest. By and large the Postfests could be the best way for a new comer to test the waters. I think they should be about once or twice a year, with a nice long period of build up and hyped on all the GH forums. “
Mortellan: “I've missed only one PF thus far since joining this site(I guess my answer would be I needed a break). In fact, my first article for CF was a Postfest. I overcame both rookie authoring and intimidation of canon in one fell stroke. Since then I do what Merric is saying I guess, an article series of my own schedule and working in a niche that is comfortable with respect to canon.”
Osmund-Davizid: “Grayson, Crag guys - I've read your posts in the forums and in my view you are as knowlegeable as any one else on this site!
“Don't forget - this land is all fantasy so we can mold it as needed. If you're worried that some grognard will nit pick your article, just do what I do, write into your article that there are "other truths out there". Just as in the whole "Chronicals of Secret Times" (and in our own world) history is written by the winners. Suffice to say, a spin free history of the Scarlet Brotherhood or Keoland would most likely be very different then what any published material would say. So you can simply write off small inconsistancies with published histories as "this is the way the story REALLY went.."
“So don't stop yourself from posting. Once you take the plunge it gets easier. Now I can't speak for very many other sites, but I've had a great experience in this site. Nobody gave me a tough time on any of my articles, the criticism was constructive. If I have a problem, it is that not enough people critique the articles.
“Bottom line, we could all use more points of view and takes on things. I've found it to be fun and it's a great feeling to see your stuff out on the site.
“O-D”
More ideas would be appreciated. For those of you who voted the jitters, what can we do to encourage your taking the plunge?
I am far from an expert, and will likely miss canon facts, but if asked and circumstances permit, I will volunteer to review and edit if desired.
No one should be afraid to post a topical submission for fear of looking foolish as running contrary to canon or because they might be "attacked."
Canon is not the be all to end all of Greyhawk, despite the name of this site and despite the pretensions of people who will claim to be adhering to or articulating canon. Imagination is more important. Creativity is more important. Expressing yourself is more important.
If you really must have canon, then select a narrow area. Select a single adventure module and go from there. Select a single portion of the setting, perhaps one without much canon, and go from there. Or caveat your submission as being reflective of your own campaign; now, no one can mess with you as you are the master or mistress of your own game.
Unless I'm missing something, this should take care of the canon issue.
The attack issue is slightly different.
As a general rule, just look at the comments attached to the topical submissions - you are far more likely to get encouragement or a question than to get attacked.
However, not naming names, there are some folks who, if you tread on an issue they feel strongly about, will obsess on that issue and "attack." Corn springs to mind. There is no stopping this. But you can deal with it.
First, for every "attack" you will get far more support. Attacks are isolated occurences. If your attacker is really a jerk, that will not only show through but get you a lot of points for having to put up with such. Most CF members are descent folks, even the "jerks" as it can turn out.
Second, there is a great desire to see the good in something. This is natural in any creative community that has any longevity or else the community would cannibalize itself in short order. This makes the attack very transitory in its significance or effect.
Third, disagreements of the moment do not mean eternal disagreement. Most people can disagree on X but one thread down agree on Y. Any attack thus needs to be placed in context. Your next submission may get nothing but raves, even from someone who previously "attacked." In other words, if you hang in, good things will happen.
Fourth, participating makes you more part of the community in the broadest sense and that is both affirming and reinforcing all by itself, even if you get an attack once or again.
Fifth, you probably will never meet your attacker in person and if you did, they would likely be far more polite. So the attack really doesn't matter much.
Sixth, you can survive an attack. You can even prosper after one. Just keep it in context and don't let it take on a life it really doesn't have.
1) If you decide your attacker has a point, acknowledge it. There is no shame as no one is perfect.
2) If are moved to rethink, acknowledge it. There is no shame as no one is perfect.
3) If you determine your attacker is full of it you can say -
a) Thank you for your comment.
b) I will reserve judgment on that score.
c) A point to consider, perhaps.
d) I will hold to my course.
Anything like this will diffuse the attack and pass it off with no need to engage on your part. Everyone is entitled to there opinion afterall. Hey! There's another one!
Refusing to acknowlefge or dignify an attack takes its sting away. You can ignore it and, this is the internet, in a day it is forgotten.
Similarly, you can always disengage from the attack. Nothing says you have to fight to a bitter end. I'll admit this sometimes seems like "loosing" but beating a dead horse feels much the same. You control your destiny.
Don't let the very few bad incidents outweight all the good stuff. _________________ GVD
It has had a major impact on my authorship, in part due to nervousness about being wrong, although there are other reasons.
The essential point of it is that you cannot be wrong is you are writing in character from the viewpoint of a person would could very well have wrong information. They could even have wrong info by design.
Just to use my latest article as an example, The Legend of the Lost Seagreen Elves, the only thing that is ultimately presented as factual is that Oceanus of the Manaan (from the U series, a fact easily verified) told a story to two people. Who knows if the story is true or not? Of course the story is the fun (IMO) part, but it can conflict with canon without there being a problem because it is only a story told by someone. Like the rumors section in a module. I do not think it does conflict, but that is another matter.
One thing I've thought of, although it's more work for the admins, is something like the Reader's Forum but for articles in development. That way new (and old) writers could seek help, suggestions, criticism, etc... as they develop new articles for publication.
Plus it might spur people along to finish writing once they toss part of something out. I know I've got a handful of articles on the back burner that I need a shove on.
Just get over the jitters and write about what you like for a start. If you are unsure about posting it, ask somebody here to proof-read it for you and give you some honest feedback. If you choose to do this, at least spell check the writing before you give it to somebody. Spellcheck finds many msitakes, but not all. It's a start at least.
If you think your writing is not so good, then be prepared for some constructive criticism. Getting criticism in one of the best ways to improve your writing, as long as the cirticism concerns your writing ability and not the topic. Not all topics are interesting to everyone, so be prepared for that, but you will be surprised at how many people are interested in certain things.
Also, if you want to write about events in your campaign that are wildy divergent from "canon", go right ahead. While your take on things may not be the same as published material, it can always end up giving other people who read it ideas for their own campaigns and so it may inherantly have its own value. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total
I would give only one caveat to those who wish to write about their own versions of Greyhawk. You may have to give us a few more details than you otherwise would.
If you are writing a story in which events transpired as recorded in "Against the Giants," then most of us know what those are. If however, in your GH, the Giants won, and took over a county, you simply have to explain that.
It does not have to be a disclaimer page or anything else, it just has to be woven into the story. I am rereading Quag Keep, and it is a Greyhawk with nothing to do with the world that we are familiar with. But she explains or at least hints at what she thinks happened, and goes on.
What I enjoy most about this site is how there are a group of avid Greyhawk fans who whilst mindful of canon also stamp their own thoughts and creativity into their campaign world of Greyhawk.
The articles and threads provide me with a new view point that I may not have come up with that allows me to keep my campaign setting fresh and to surprise my players who smugly think they know what I have planned! I don't always see eye to eye with a poster's personal vision of Greyhawk but I'm not obliged to use the thoughts. ALternatively sometimes I read something that I really like....someone recently mentioned about how the Flan pantheon wasn;t one big pantheon but seperate deities worshipped by seperate tribes / clans of Flan. This is an idea I have taken on board.
If when you write an article you make it clear that this is how your version of Greyhawk is then not one person can fault your vision. They can comment on how canon stands up to your ideas but that is all.
The very nature of Greyhawk is that over the decades it has been a compilation of many people's works and ideas....personally I find that whilst there are bonuses to this approach sometimes Greyhawk lacks a overriding atmosphere and that's why as a DM and a player it's important to stamp your own vision of the setting to make it come to live for all involve din your game.
So basically what I'm trying to say is no-one should be nervous about posting...just tell us it's simply your vision of Greyhawk and no-one can fault you on that!
On a side note - if anyone fancied doing a series of maps instead of articles...maps thats showed the flow of trade or the placement of the ancient empires etc...now that would be a good alternative to text articles
If you note the five articles I linked to - most of them have no canonical problems because they are completely new directions on ideas. Taras' articles on Icespire took the only sketchy description of a mysterious locale in Ivid the Undying and gave it tremendous flavor. Wyk's articles on the night hags of Incabulos are totally original. The Keoland articles by Jesse Dean and Chatdemon explore adventuring hooks and flesh out obscure areas where there is very little canon source materials.
Then there is Kirt - who is one of the best footnoter and canon strong article writer we got. His style of articles are still original looks at aspects of Greyhawk, but cleverly incorporate the smallest bits of GH text from amny sources. He's da man!
My point with this was to not just give my own personal favorite articles, but to encourage others to post theirs. By linking to our favorite articles, new writers can be exposed to the all the possible varieties of contributions they can make. Their articles can be footnoted scholarly types of just flights of fancy.
So perhaps we should move this thread over to this forum, in order to give it more exposure and encourage more people to comment on what makes agreat CF article.
O-D, I do not have a problem with eventually moving this thread into that forum, but right now it is enjoying the exposure of being first in the new forums list. That is only because it is in the World of Greyhawk Discussion I think the Readers Workshop is a good place for this topic, but it just does not get the headlines. So, for a few more days I would like it to stay where it is so it is not missed by someone it might benefit.
Oh no, I meant to move the "my favorite CF articles" thread from the Readers Workshop page to the general discussion page. For the reasons you mentioned above, I think we need to have the pluses highlighted rather then the negatives.
OD - I think the other common thread of the articles that you mention is that they tackle the grey areas of Greyhawk. They do not tackle the monarchy of the Great Kingdom or the future of Keoland, or some other major and far reaching topic.
Focusing on a grey area has several advantages:
1) You often can more completely cover a subject by having a narrow focus.
2) you are less likely to conflict with canon
3) you are more likely to recieve a positive response from people in general if it is something new when it is not a reworking or alternate reality version of their favorite parts of the Flaness.
There are many grey areas of the Flaness that deserve better treatment.
We have been working for some time on the Gran March project, and while much has yet to be published, we have not found a single objector who had some other definate vision for the area. There are plenty of other areas like this.
Maybe I'll put some of them on the crappy website for my current campaign so you can take a look. Thanks for the offer.
As an experiment I've started a Blogspot site just for my articles in development. I figure this could be a good way to get comments from anyone who is interested to help refine articles I'm working on for CF. I'd appreciate anyone checking it out and commenting who wants to.
By focusing on smaller areas rather then "rocking the world" scope articles, you are less likely to conflict with other people's worlds and can actually complement what they are doing. In that manner, your article will be judged more favorably.
Some other tips for first time posters, why not get your feet wet with a simple article, such as a new spell or magic item that has a Greyhawk origin or flavor? That will at least get you started into submitting articles and with those kinds of articles there is little chance of running into canonical conflicts.
Thinking about writing an article, but not sure about style? Well a few people have taken a shot at offering advice. NiteScreed wrote “The Grey in the Hawk,” which can be found here: http://hem.passagen.se/hoglins/greyhawk/greyinfo.htm
For convenience and as a refresher, here is a summary of GVD’s:
(1) Let The Story Drive The Setting (Adventures and themed accessories, not fact books)
(2) Focus On The PC Involvement (Decide or witness, but backstage is boring)
(3) Place All Events In Context (Connect it to other works)
(4) Dangle Loose-Ends (Invites the imagination, speculation and further development)
(5) Maintain Balance and Neutrality (GH is rarely good v. evil)
(6) Invoke Nostalgia Carefully (Draw upon the good ol’days, but don’t be trite)
(7) Stick To Canon Appropriately (Consistency is good if not a detriment of creativity)
(8) Draw Up A Sense of History (Season well from this full spice rack)
(9) Use Oerth Shaking Epic Adventures (Traditional, from GDQ to Savage Tide)
(10) Let The Planes Manifest (Demi-planes, UFOs, there is always a Land Beyond …)
(11) Forbid Nothing In Moderation (Balance medieval fantasy with everything else)
(12) Bring Your Friends, Sub nom (Zagyg, Inquander et al)
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