After an unforutnate character fatality the player in question would now like to play a necromancer. This is the class I dread players asking to play for numerous reasons.
To cut a long story short - have any of you any thoughts on good aligned necromancers? They are mentioned in various sourcebooks as rare but possible however the undead related spells all seem to have the 'evil' descriptor. I don't see how a good aligned character can justify the use of evil spells without his own alignment gradually shifting.
There also seems to be a lack of deities related to directly to death (Wee Jass and Nerull being the main contenders). Are any other deities in your games worshipped as death deities? or do any non evil deities in your game tolerate the use of necromancy and undead summoning? Death is such an important aspect of all cultures i was surprised how the Oeridians, a war like people have no deity specifically charged with this domain...at the moment I have given this role to Telchur...but that embarks me on a different topic I'm still working on!
I think this would be delicate at best. I can see a good aligned dread necromancer, but I can see him/her using only certain necromancer spells. I guess the storyline could be "I use the powers of darkness against darkness itself." I would assume that using create undead, even to be used against the powers of darkness, would be a great taboo. It would make for a great story; a hero wracked with moral strife and tortured over an ethical delimma. I too have wondered why the Oeridians didn't have a deity devoted solely to death. Then again, maybe they just assumed that death is truly the next step to the world hereafter. Perhaps they viewed death as (sigh) the Klingons did: do what you want with the body, it is but an empty shell now, nothing more.
The 2e "Necromancers' Handbook" had some decent ideas on good-aligned necromancers, and it was actually one of my favorite 2e supplemental books. A section of the book covered the different necromancy spells and classified them as white, gray, or black necromancy. A white necromancer stuck to white spells in the main, though they might use a few gray ones every now and again. A gray necromancer used mostly gray and white spells, but might occasionally use some black ones. A black necromancer would use mostly black spells with a few gray ones thrown in, and rarely would use white spells. Regeneration and other beneficent necromancy spells would be considered white. If you have access to this book you may want to make use of some of the spells in it. For 3.5e, gentle repose would be considered white, waves of exhaustion would be considered gray as it is harmful but not deadly, and animate dead would be considered black. So, limit the character's spells to only necromancy spells that do not have the "Evil" designator or a start. You might allow the character to know such spells(under the "know your enemy" clause), but not cast them. You need not require the player to choose a deity of death for their character to worship. In fact, it would be more apporpritae if the character were to pay homage to a deity of life or a foe of undead.
A white necromancer would probably seek out spells that enhanced or preserved the body or destroyed undead. Many such spells would actually fall under theTransmutation school, but they suit the character type. A good aligned Necromancer/Cleric/True Necromancer(PrC) could be a very unique and useful character to have around. If the player is not too keen on playing a priest at all, then you could go with just the basic Necromancer class. As the dm, you might want to create a prestige class called the White Necromancer to fit this unique pc, such as follows:
White Necromancer
The White Necromancers are the antithesis of what most people think of when the term "necromancer" is mentioned. White Necromancers study necromancy for the purpose of learning the functions of the body, easing pain, healing wounds, destroying undead, and combating evil necromancers. The White Necromancers are based out of a guild hall located in the Rel Mord, though they are known to travel far and wide and a member or two may potentially be found at any major wizards' guild. The White Necromancers are known to be on good terms with the priesthoods of gods of light, life, goodness, and those that oppose evil and undead.
Hit Die: d4.
Requirements
Alignment: Any good.
Skills: Heal 4 ranks, Knowledge:arcana 5 ranks.
Feats: Spell focus: necromancy
Special: Must be a wizard specializing in necromancy and be able to cast at least one 3rd-level arcane necromancy spell. Oath of Beneficence: all White Necromancers are required to swear an oath to never make use of evil necromancy spells or items. They may learn evil necromancy spells so as to become familiar with the weapons of their enemies, but may never make use of them; doing so violates their oath and the character may not gain any further White Necromancer levels until the character atones for their misdeeds. If the character doesn't make an effort to atone they are cast out of the order and may never again gain White necromancer levels.
Class Skills: Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Heal(Wis), Knowledge(all skills taken individually)(Int), Profession(Wis), and Spellcraft(Int).
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: White Necromancers gain no armor or weapon proficiencies.
Spells: White Necromancers continue to advance in spell casting ability as if they had gained a level as a wizard for each White Necromancer level gained.
At 1st level the White Necromancer adds the following spells to their spell list: cause fear, cure light wounds, deathwatch, hide from undead, remove fear. These spells(and those gained at each odd level hereafter) may be memorized as if they were arcane spells of one level higher than listed for the spell(ie. cure light wounds may be memorized as a 2nd level arcane spell).
At 2nd level the White Necromancer gains the Skill Focus: Heal feat.
At 3rd level the White Necromancer adds the following spells to their spell list: cure moderate wounds, delay poison, gentle repose, remove paralysis, restoration(lesser).
At 4th level the White Necromancer casts all Necromancy spells at +1 level.
A 5th level the White Necromancer adds the following spells to their spell list: cure serious wounds, helping hand, remove blindness/deafness, speak with dead.
At 6th level the White Necromancer gains the Greater Spell Focus: necromancy feat.
At 7th level the White Necromancer adds the following spells to their spell list: cure critical wounds, death ward, neutralize poison, restoration.
At 8th level the White Necromancer gains the Spell Mastery feat, but only necromancy spells or the spells gained at 1st, 3rd, 5th, or 7th level as a White Necromancer may be chosen.
At 9th level the White Necromancer adds the following spells to their spell list: cure light wounds(mass), disrupting weapon.
At 10th level the White Necromancer gains the ability to spontaneously cast Necromancy and Healing spells. The white necromancy can "lose any prepared spell and replace it with a Necromancy or Healing spell of equivalent level. Note that any bonus spells gained at each odd level as a White Necromancer count as one level higher for purposes of this ability, just as it does when memorizing those spells. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
After an unforutnate character fatality the player in question would now like to play a necromancer. This is the class I dread players asking to play for numerous reasons.
Just to be clear: does the player have a particular "necromancy" class in mind? Is (s)he thinking of the necromancer specialist wizard (from the Player's Handbook), the True Necromancer (from Libris Mortis [sic]), or the Dread Necromancer (from Heroes of Horror)? Or would any of those do? It makes a difference, I think.
To cut a long story short - have any of you any thoughts on good aligned necromancers?
For me, a good-aligned necromancer could make use of spirits, even using them to animate bodies, so long as he had the permission of both the spirit and the body. The following spell is from my article series "Voices of the Dead", about ancestor-worshipping clerics. Although they are about clerics, they may have the flavor you are looking for to design a Good necromancer concept.
The focus of this spell is a small piece of armor (a square of leather, a scale or link of mail, etc.) that was worn by a person slain in battle, who has not received a funeral service. A cleric with knowledge of this spell must collect the armor piece within one week of the death of its wearer. The cleric then performs a ceremony that binds the soul of the slain person to the piece of armor. Thereafter, that cleric or another may use the armor as the focus for this spell.
A cleric may cast the spell over multiple pieces of armor; each spell summons into his service one spirit per cleric level or per focal piece of armor (whichever is less). Although unable to speak, the spirit warriors are of average Intelligence and will follow the intent of the commands of the cleric who summoned them. They may move, but not more than 100 yards from the caster. If they are willing servants of the cleric (see below), the cleric need not maintain concentration on them. If they are unwilling servants, the cleric must maintain concentration for the duration of the spell. For any round in which the cleric loses concentration, each spirit is allowed to make a Will save at DC 15 with success indicating that they disappear.
The spirit warriors disappear individually when "killed", or dispelled. For the characteristics of these spirits (including their Fear effect), see the monster descriptions at the end of this article.
Among good societies, the armor bits used for this spell come from fallen warriors belonging to the tribe or family of the summoning cleric. Their bodies are burned so that they cannot be animated, but they are not given the funeral services that allow their souls to pass to the afterlife. Thus, the souls are available to bind into the armor and remain at the disposition of the cleric. Some warriors give permission to priests to bind their souls should they fall in battle, so that even in death they can continue to serve their people. Usually the warrior agrees to a certain period of service; after this the armor is given a funeral and the soul is freed. If a warrior had no such agreement with a cleric prior to death, his soul is unwilling to be bound. Each use of such unwilling souls is an Evil act, and if the souls used come from outside the cleric's legitimate purview (village, tribe, etc.), it is a Chaotic act as well. Among the Uli, it is common to bind and enslave the souls of fallen enemies, and then to animate their bodies, as well!
While dealing with spirits might not always be bad thing, binding one to a piece of armor doesn't sound like white necromancy; more dark gray bordering on black as it keeps a soul from its final journey but imprisons it. Spirits that were unable to make that final journey are almost always turning up as evil undead, or traditionally have been, though 3e changed some of that by making multiple undead templates open to various alignments. Even still, most of the spirit formed undead are evil. 3e also dropped a lot of the “Evil” designators off of black necromancy spells, even though binding and manipulating souls (soul bind) and obliterating them(circle of death) are viewed as black necromancy, and therefor as evil.
Souls that have gone on that could be called back for a "good reason" gets away from the black necromancy and "Evil" designator pretty much, particularly with the restriction that the summoning is voluntary. In this instance a cleric or mage might summon forth a spirit to act as a guardian of an area or item or even a person, or to right some grievous wrong. For the spell Kirt mentions I would alter the wording a bit to say that the bit of armor acts as a focus for the spirit to manifest at from the afterlife, rather than require the conditions of an unconsecrated burial and the literal binding of the soul to the item(which is a 9th level spell with even greater time constraints to begin with), as either of these factors cannot be viewed as good. As is, the spell is dark gray to black necromancy as it literally imprisons a soul, and more importantly without the express permission of the person whose soul is to be bound. Another factor is the power of such a thing, as binding a soul precludes the use of “clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, and even a miracle or wish.”(soul bind spell excerpt). Not only does the spell not require a gem worth 1,000 g.p. per hit die of the individual to be bound, but instead of merely binding the soul the caster gets a battle servant to boot. Sort of trumps the 9th level Soul Bind spell in a few too many ways in my opinion. Perhaps the mistake is in the wording though and "bind" is not the intended condition, but rather the armor simply acts as a "link" to the soul. If such were the case, that and the specific condition and the short duration make the spell's level more practical, but the ability of a "spirit" still needs to be defined.
Also, a spell should not usually require that another spell be used just to see if it can be cast, such as casting speak with dead to ask "Can I imprison your soul in this bit of armor?" That’s not what would be called a "good" question. Instead have the spell beseech the sprit to manifest when the item is used as the focus of the proper ritual(spell). This allows for the spirit’s involvement to be voluntary, gets rid of the literal binding, and takes out the black necromancy factors. You might even also add in the benefit that once the spirit’s service is done, the spirit will make its final journey if it has not already done so. This makes it an almost completely white necromancy spell, even though there still is a give and take aspect to it. Overall it is beneficial to all involved so I’d say it’s a white necromancy spell. One might limit the hit dice of the spirit to correspond to the level of the spell as well. A 3rd level spell shouldn’t be calling up anything nastier than what an equivalent monster summoning spell would. The effects of such a spell should be spell level dependent instead of caster level dependent as well. Perhaps have a standard version as well as a greater and lesser version of the spell too. All of this is predicated on if you wanted to create a specifically good spell of course.
It certainly is a nicely flavored spell for primitive to civilized tribes to make use of, particularly the Baklunish as djinn are often though of as elemental spirits too. I could see it used by the Olman and Touv, the Tiger and Wolf nomads, what's left of the Rovers, and also the Thillronian barbarians too. Lots of potential. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
As far a gods go, don't forget that Wee Jas as originally concieved allowed for Lawful Good clerics as well as LN and LE ones. For some reason they were eliminated in 2e (From the Ashes boxed set, I think). But they meet the 3e alignment rule and I don't see any reason why she couldn't have good priests and followers.
I agree with that, and still have LG clerics, paladins, and followers of Wee Jas in my campaign. They are rare, but they are there. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
thanks so much for all the thoughts and information! Unfortunately the player wants to play some kind of young girl necromancer whos friends are the skeletons she summons...he's kind of missing the point of undead in dnd...Tim Burton is not an influence in my Greyhawk game at present! I may just have to say no to a wizard necromancer....do many of those of you who DM ever not allow a player to play a character you think you be problematic? Or do you all just weather the potential storms?
I've come up with a couple of possibilities...the Book of Exalted Deeds mentions the Deathless type...basically theyre a kind of living dead but whereas most undead are linked with Negative Energy, Deathless are linked with Positive Energy and tend to act as protectors of tombs etc...
I remember reading things about LG clerics of Wee Jass but in my game Wee Jass has shifted to LN(E) (reflected by her home on Acheron, and this shift has meant that her few remaining good clerics are at a philosophical odds with their goddess. Her ties to the Scarlet Brotherhood and association with Pyremius and Syrul makes in my eyes a shift towards the tenets of LE for Wee Jass....as a result I'm considering that another deity, most likely Suel may find itself being worshipped by more benign Suel for funery aspects...at the moment I'm thinking Lydia...already worshipped by a number of spellcasters of good alignment her role of knowledge and learning might be more appealing to magic users than Wee Jass's strict dominion...Lydia in her role of a godess of light may become to be seen as the guiding light of the spirits to the afterlife?
Deities of Death and the dead are certainly lacking in the Greyhawk pantheons....another aspect of the cosmology of Oerth for me to obsess over!
thanks so much for all the thoughts and information! Unfortunately the player wants to play some kind of young girl necromancer whos friends are the skeletons she summons...he's kind of missing the point of undead in dnd...
Maybe he could play a spirit shaman (from Complete Divine) instead? Rather than a little girl who plays with summoned skeletons, she could be a little girl whose friends are the spirits. No alignment problems here, as most of the "spirits" with whom a shaman deals are not in fact undead.
yeah good idea, I was starting to think along those lines actually...unfortunately I have a feeling the player wants skeletons! sigh...what ever happened to a plain old heroic fighter!!
In the past I tended to restrict players' character choices to fit my AD&D-rooted vision of Greyhawk. Lately, I've tended to allow players to play what they will but worked closely with them to select a character class / race that will work in the particular campaign. However, with the proliferation of D&D and d20 books it's become necessary to remind certain players that the DM must approve any non-standard spells, etc.
One way that I've dealt with characters I find problematic for the campaign is simply to highlight the incompatbility. For example, if the campaign is set in Sterich, and a PC necromancer brings skeletons to Istivin (or any village), the watch or militia will presume an enemy and likely attack that PC and any who accompany him / her.
You might warn the PC of this problem by having the first such encounter be nondeadly, but there's no reason that regular humans (or demi-humans) would tolerate a necromancer outside of an evil society, e.g., certain Aerdy lands or the splintered empire of Iuz.
Wee Jas has always been LN. Law above all else can sometimes be pretty harsh so I interpret that as the (E) part of latter listings, as well as Her knowledge of and use of ALL magic, some of which has the Evil designator. She's a goddess, so I'll let her slide on a few things. I think that over time Wee Jas has acquired an overly sinister and petty aspect, both of which are a disservice to her original portfolio in my opinion.
You can put a pink bow on a skeleton, but it’s still a soul in thralldom. Nothing good about that. In my campaign a player with a neutral witch character(see various articles by myself) wanted to delve into creating a semi-intelligent undead cadre of four bodyguards under her complete control and solely devoted to her. The witch's patron is a powerful Lord of the Elemental Plane of Air whose abode is actually on the quasi-elemental plane of lightning. Suffice to say, the relationship began to become strained, such that the witch would either end up severing her pact with her patron to seek out another patron more disposed to mucking about with undead and negative energy, or she would cease all of her undead nonsense.
The outcome: The witch chose to cease the "undead nonsense", as not only did her patron have some influence on her, so did her "conscience"(read as "probable alignment shift towards evil"). The problem worked itself out pretty much after the right circumstances were put into play.
Perhaps you need to play up the effects of animating dead. Make it nastier, such as describing the agony/terror/anger of the spirit which lessons to an almost mindlessness as it is subdued and bound into the skeletal form. Play up the reason why necromancy is outlawed in most nations. Make the process as horrific as it should be. That might send the right message in itself. Skeletons aren't cute, and zombies and others certainly are not. Just the smell alone should see to that. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I was under the impression that corporeal undead were animated through the use of negative energy as opposed to reinhabiting the mortla husks with the souls of the dead? I guess if this is the case then the negative plane of energy isnt inherently evil and therefore the raising of dead skeletons isn't necessarily evil. It's disrespectful but not evil. Personally I think that the negative energy stance makes undead a little santised - for me a necromancer should be about binding tortured souls into the rotting bodies of the dead heh.
As a side note Cebrion one of my players is using your witch class in the converted Queen of Spiders campaign I'm running....the class works really well and the player has Ralishaz as her patron which makes for interesting play. The only change I made is to make shadow magic related spells the ken of witches also...as creatures of secrecy this seemed suitable and also a passage I read mentiooning that people often pass through the plane of shadows to access other planes tied in nicely with the witch's powers of summoning...it made sense that they would often find themselves delving intot he Plane of Shadows. SO yeah - thanks for the witch class stuff!
I've understood the animation of mindless undead, e.g., zombies and skeletons, to involve "mere" negative energy.
However, that plane used to be considered a place where life was instantly destroyed--and highly associated with evil. Hence the drama of the Citadel Cavitus, the rarity of those similar citadels noted in 1e's Manual of the Places, and the strangeness of those Positive / Negative elemental-esque monsters.
In contrast, the animation of intelligent undead did / does involve binding a soul (or perhaps its shadow). Either way, necromancy tends to be "black." Relatively few spells are "white."
I've seen it done. In my region (Keoland) it is forbidden to use necromantic spells that do not have an obvious benefit. The player uses summons most of the time with an occasional ray of enfeeblement, false life, touch of fatigue etc.
He is a necromancer, but plays it down. He doesn't broadcast though. Very tastefulfully done.
But well done! _________________ "Always remember, your focus determines your reality."<br /><br />-- Qui-Gon Jinn<br />Jedi Master
I was under the impression that corporeal undead were animated through the use of negative energy as opposed to rein habiting the mortal husks with the souls of the dead? I guess if this is the case then the negative plane of energy isn’t inherently evil and therefore the raising of dead skeletons isn't necessarily evil. It's disrespectful but not evil. Personally I think that the negative energy stance makes undead a little sanitized - for me a necromancer should be about binding tortured souls into the rotting bodies of the dead heh.
The animate dead spell does have the "Evil" designator, and as it is only capable of animating skeletons and zombies(mindless undead) there is therefore definitely an evil aspect to it. Negative energy is anti-life. Anti-life is bad, and only people who tend towards evil make use of it. The more drastic the negative energy effect, the more likely it is that it is evil. My description is just that- a description that portrays the evil designation/aspect. I prefer to think of animate dead as not so much as binding a soul mindlessly to a husk(as that is the purview of much more powerful magics) but that the spell uses negative energy to create a link to the soul which causes the initial spark of false life (re-animation). The soul becomes aware of what has been done to its corporeal body but has no control over it, which is rather vile.
Wolfling wrote:
As a side note Cebrion one of my players is using your witch class in the converted Queen of Spiders campaign I'm running....the class works really well and the player has Ralishaz as her patron which makes for interesting play. The only change I made is to make shadow magic related spells the ken of witches also...as creatures of secrecy this seemed suitable and also a passage I read mentioning that people often pass through the plane of shadows to access other planes tied in nicely with the witch's powers of summoning...it made sense that they would often find themselves delving into he Plane of Shadows. SO yeah - thanks for the witch class stuff!
Here is a quote from my article "Of Witches and the Rise of the Coven":
"The Founding of The Coven
The origins of The Coven date back more than 8,000 years. The exact year of The Coven’s inception is not known precisely, but the earliest records within The Coven’s archives date back to around C.Y. – 7,400. The earliest surviving records from this time are a series of engraved obsidian tablets recounting a great elemental confluence, the event that by all accounts drew together the four witches, one dedicated to each of the four elemental powers, who first formed The Coven. The tablets tell of how these four witches sought out and soon were joined by a group of other witches representing patrons of the positive and negative planes, as well as the astral, ethereal, and shadow planes."
As you can see, witches serve patrons from the Plane of Shadow too, and in fact serve patrons from all the known planes. Some witches even serve actual deities, though this is extremely rare(less rare for Wee Jas though). I have been meaning to get back to the Witch articles by writing up a summary of all the powers/resistances witches have access to based on which plane their patron is from. I'm also itching to write up some of the other covens and some of the more famous/infamous witch npc’s. If you have any questions about anything witchy that is not in one of the Witch articles then PM me. Also, let me know how the character is functioning as a Shadow Witch. A player in my campaign runs a Storm Witch(Quasi-elemental Plane of Lightning/Air), so that has sort of been the playtest character for the class. It’s nice to get feedback from an outside source though. Please be brutally honest. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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