"Typical Loads carried by:
A single pack horse 1/8 ton
Stage wagon on "soft" roads 5/8 ton
Stage wagon on macadam roads 2 ton
Barge on river 30 tons
Barge on canal 50 tons
This table shows the loads which could be carried or drawn by a single horse with the forms of inland transport available before about 1830."
I post it here for general edification and so I know where to find it in future. :)
I should also point out some of these later ships - which were used for transport on inland waterways - and might be relevent as prototypes for sailing barges on the rivers and lakes of the Flanaess (which is actually what I'm noodling about on the net for). :)
Norfolk keel
The Norfolk keel predates the more familiar Norfolk wherry as a trading barge seen on East Anglian waterways, although it did not cover such a wide area. The earliest type was transom, or flat-ended, with D-shaped stern, but many later types were double-ended or pointed at both ends... The cabin was in the fore part of the craft rather than the stern, while the cargo space was without covered hatches. The single mast, carrying a large sail, was amidships, stepped in a tabernacle but also secured by crosswise deck beams. The hull was of clinker build and had an average length of 54 feet with a 14 foot beam. The depth was 4 feet, drawing slightly less than 4 feet of water. Cargo capacity was between 30 and 40 tons.
Severn trow
This ancient type of craft is now extinct, once operated in the Severn estuary, often working as far inland as Stourport, Bewdley, Shrewsbury and the Welsh Marches. Trows were of clinker build and exsisted in both large and small types. The large type had a length of 70 feet and beam of 17 feet, and drew between 3 and 4 feet when empty. They would carry about 120 tons with a draught between 8 feet 6 inches and 9 feet 6 inches. Most of the larger types confined to the Severn, Bristol Channel and the Avon to Bristol. The smaller type, found their way on to the Stroudwater Navigation by way of the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal and on to the Droitwich Canal. The smaller type were mainly engaged in the salt trade and known as Wich barges. The earliest ancestors of the Severn trow in Anglo-Saxon times and during the middle ages they were double-ended and resembled keels...The original mast was stepped slightly forward of the centre or midships and carried a large square sail...The forecastle quarters under the tiny fore deck usually accommodated a crew of three. The captain had a cabin aft, under the stem deck. Between the fore and aft cabins was the open cargo hold, rarely covered by hatches, as there were no side decks. The mast was supported by crosswise or thwartship beams. There were fairly high bulwarks protecting stem and stern. Protective side cloths on rails and stanchions helped to shield the cargo when out in the Bristol Channel, or in rough weather. The genuine trow was flat-bottomed with no external keel but had rounded bilges rather than chine build. Leeboards were not used but many trows had a removable false keel, which thet used when sailing to windward. This was lowered over the side by means of chains and floated into position when necessary.
Woesinger, you might be interested in the "scow schooner", which was used in the late 19th-early 20th centuries in relatively shallow bays (San Francisco and Galveston) and the river systems emptying into them to haul large amounts of cargo. The really cool thing about them is that some were constructed so the pilot would sit up on a tall platform so he could see over the pile of cargo to steer. The Alma at the San Franciso Maritime Historical Park is the only surviving example I'm aware of. The rig is too complex for the Flanaess but as an example of an ugly utilitarian cargo hauler it's interesting. As far as the shape it would make an almost perfect Rhenee barge.
That's a really great image of a caravel, that I'll probably find useful. Thanks.
Let me jump in here and plug Skulls & Bones from Green Ronin and Corsair from Adamant Entertainment for 3x stats on ships, to include their cargo capacities. Included are war vessel types, ocean going merchant types, coastal merchant types and inland waterway types. You can't get better resources, IMO.
Both S&B and Corsairs are set in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries but are easily adaptable to earlier periods. Some of the vessals from those periods are actually holdovers from earlier periods. Corsairs even has a fantasy conversion for non-Golden Age of Piracy games.
Mongoose Publishing's mini-line Seas of Blood also has fantasy ships whose stats are compatible with S&B and Corsairs.
And, pardon my gushing, S&B and Corsairs have the best 3x naval battle rules I have ever seen; both use the same system. Bar none. Period. While rules for medieval ship armaments are provided, I am definitiely going gunpowder in GH after reading S&B and Corsairs. It is too cool a system not to adapt.
I figure naval gunnery can be implemented without throwing off landward affairs as personal firearms are not that great. Ship to ship, however, nothing beats guns.
I might also note the relevance of all this as the Savage Tide adventure path from Dungeon that is starting this fall will provide a ready made GHy setting for exploration, pirates and trade. I can't believe I just pimped Mona. But Skull & Bones and Corsairs are THAT good! _________________ GVD
The only real issue with adding gunpowder for naval artillery is the relevance for seige engines on land. It would possible to explain cannons without muskets (after all, it actually happpened...). Would be harder to explain naval gunnery without siege guns.
The only real issue with adding gunpowder for naval artillery is the relevance for seige engines on land. It would possible to explain cannons without muskets (after all, it actually happpened...). Would be harder to explain naval gunnery without siege guns.
Not challenging you, rather just genuinely interested - what are you referring to when you note "cannons without muskets?"
Seige canons. Could expense perhaps play a role? Say all canon are hugely expensive. Naval guns might pay for themselves in terms of cargo protected or taken. Seige guns might then be farther and fewer between - a military luxury. Not a necessity, given the effectiveness of trebuchets and their "shot and shell" requirements compared to the cost of keeping a canon in actual short and shell? _________________ GVD
The problem with canon is that they're far easier to use on land than at sea with medieval ship tech. Their effectiveness against medieval style defences means that they're well worth the expense and danger of casting and hauling them (ask Sultan Memet I the day he rode through the shattered walls of Constantinople).
This in turn means that you have a radical change in military architecture to compensate (Vauban style star forts instead of moat and curtain wall).
Of course, magic is a wild card here. Would protection from normal missiles stop a regular iron canon ball (methinks yes, the response to which is a +1 canonball)? Would siege mages be deployed to protect vulnerable sections of wall against bombardment with walls of force?
I think a world with a mix of magic and gunpowder would be really interesting, but Canon Greyhawk isn't and shouldn't be it (home campaigns - go hog wild!).
I think a world with a mix of magic and gunpowder would be really interesting, but Canon Greyhawk isn't and shouldn't be it (home campaigns - go hog wild!).
P.
Well, lets slow down a bit.
EGG's prohibition against gunpowder is equivocal as he would say one thing in one place and then say just the opposite elsewhere. Roger Moore documented these inconsistencies in a footnote to a dragon article about gunpowder.
Gary Holian, in a Dragon article about Greyhawk paladins, set forth that the clerics of Murlynd knew how to create "smokepowder weapons." This removed the "Murlynd's weapons are uniquely functional" argument.
Canon Greyhawk then has gunpowder as available and functional for other than divine entities. How available is still an open question. Certainly, no canon source speaks of cannon.
Would such be a bad thing? I'm not sure.
Cannon will be expensive and inconvenient.
How expensive is a wizard who can cast an equivalent or better fireball or lightening bolt? If costs are equal, the wizard is a lower maintainance option.
How expensive is a wizard to defend against cannon? If less expensive than the cannon or the building of star forts, canon becomes not worth its expense.
I can see an argument that canon might be naturally limited in their appeal to land armies as countermeasures and expense combine to render their advantage negligible.
At sea, if the cargo can offset the expense, and the sheer number of ships would strain the wizardly population, I think there might be more of a reason to go with canon as an alternative to wizardry.
If confined largely to ships, I don't see cannon as too disruptive od canon necessarily.
I don't have the sources to hand - but where does canon Greyhawk make gunpowder "available and functional for other than divine entities"?
Cannon are expensive intially, but quickly achieve economies of scale in a way that wizards and their wands can't.
Cannon are only limited by ammunition, powder and rates of fire. They can fire all day and all night and can be fired by suitably trained mundanes. Mages are rare, take longer to train, have a limited number of "shots" per day and need to sleep.
Even if mages are effective in defence against cannon, by having the defending mages spend their spells in this way, they're not spending their spells elsewhere on the battlefield (do your men want to die by fireball or cannonade?).
As to mages vs starforts for defence, mages can die, run out of spells, betray you or be elsewhere at a time of attack (they're relatively rare, remember). Starforts are durable, stay in place and are marvellous returns on initial investment.
Cannon didn't go away because starforts where invented - they just got better. And remember, there'll be mages behind the cannon as well as in front of them (so the magic factor is balanced out).
By bringing smokepowder into the world, you're going to trigger the kind of changes in military tactics that you saw in the real world. Smokepowder would be great for the Gyri, for example, since with musket and cannon, they substantially overturn the advantage of the invading giants. You put substantial killing power into the hand of your average person (cannister shot vs giant at close range = nasty mess). You're essentially going to bring the warfare of the late 15th, 16th and 17th centuries to the Flanaess.
Once you open the Pandora's box of smokepowder, you're going to fundamentally change how the Flanaess appears, looks and feels. That's fine (in fact very interesting) in a home campaign, but to do it to the Canon Greyhawk, you're essentially making it Warhammer FRP. And that, I think, would be a mistake.
I don't have the sources to hand - but where does canon Greyhawk make gunpowder "available and functional for other than divine entities"? . . .
Once you open the Pandora's box of smokepowder, you're going to fundamentally change how the Flanaess appears, looks and feels. That's fine (in fact very interesting) in a home campaign, but to do it to the Canon Greyhawk, you're essentially making it Warhammer FRP. And that, I think, would be a mistake.
I don't have the issues immediately at hand but I can look them up. Or we can hold a seance and summon the spirit of Gary Holian, who wrote it.
If I'm honest, you are right about the Pandora's box effect. Yet, dualing broadsides is just sooo cool as are the 3x rules for it in S&B and Corsair. I want to believe naval gunnery could be kept in check, but you are correct. _________________ GVD
How about sorceror/wizard duels, with or without wands?
Doesn't quite give you that Master and Commander feeling of rushing to reload and get another broadside off and take down his main mast, I'll grant you.
Bombards and other early cannon were deployed as seige weapons long before muskets and other small arms. They were occassionally used on the battlefield as well, though they were not that useful in that regard. And the Koreans and Chinese used a variety of gunpowder based artillery for sieges and the battlefield without developing individual gunpowder weapons.
Cannon were deployed on land well before they made it to the sea, as well.
Btw, I think that Protection from Normal Missiles deliberately excludes siege weapons, giant hurled rocks, and the like. So I'd say its fairly safe bet it wouldn't stop a cannon ball.
How about sorceror/wizard duels, with or without wands?
Doesn't quite give you that Master and Commander feeling of rushing to reload and get another broadside off and take down his main mast, I'll grant you.
Hi folks. While I loved the Ancient Art of War at Sea computer game, always wanted Pirates! and greatly enjoyed Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay when it was first published, I agree that gunpowder cannons would logically change my Greyhawk campaigns too much to allow me to incorporate guns.
One reason I liked the term "smokepowder" is that it helped me imagine something like Earth's guns but of far less utility and scalability. Similarly, Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms campaign setting features "blasting powder" (among other technologies) in a way that allows firearms without upsetting all the swords & sorcery premises of fantasy RPGs (although the setting is significantly different than standard fantasy campaigns).
In short, if I were to allow smokepowder weapons in a Greyhawk campaign, I'd rule that they are fundamentally different from gunpowder and bite a little on the Iron Kingdom's blasting powder.
Remember, Slavers held that specialty clerics of Murlynd had a special class ability to use smokepowder. Gary Holian's Dragon article held that a paladin of Murlynd could use a smokepowder weapon if s/he selected a special feat. In the Iron Kingdoms, blasting powder requires both alchemy and wizardry. Without magic, the powder doesn't work.
IMC, I'd incorporate this to explain the smoke powder developed in the Suhfang Empire and leave the Flanaess limited to the antics of Murlynd's devotees.
One reason I liked the term "smokepowder" is that it helped me imagine something like Earth's guns but of far less utility and scalability. Similarly, Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms campaign setting features "blasting powder" (among other technologies) in a way that allows firearms without upsetting all the swords & sorcery premises of fantasy RPGs (although the setting is significantly different than standard fantasy campaigns).
In short, if I were to allow smokepowder weapons in a Greyhawk campaign, I'd rule that they are fundamentally different from gunpowder and bite a little on the Iron Kingdom's blasting powder.
Remember, Slavers held that specialty clerics of Murlynd had a special class ability to use smokepowder. Gary Holian's Dragon article held that a paladin of Murlynd could use a smokepowder weapon if s/he selected a special feat. In the Iron Kingdoms, blasting powder requires both alchemy and wizardry. Without magic, the powder doesn't work.
So, without gagging, can we have a gun/smoke/blasting-powder that only functions at a set humidity etc.? Thus, making it work in a naval environment reliably but markedly less so on land? _________________ GVD
So, without gagging, can we have a gun/smoke/blasting-powder that only functions at a set humidity etc.? Thus, making it work in a naval environment reliably but markedly less so on land?
Just my opinion, but I say no, not without gagging. For me the problem is where have these "gun/smoke/blasting-powder" weapons been hiding all this time that they've been able to evolve into effective naval weapons? If you introduce them via some culture alien to the Flanaess that's fine, but how can that work for anything other than a simple adventure arc where the players end up by destroying the threat of these new weapons? Otherwise gunpowder will, and I hate to speak in absolutes, but it will totally unbalance the world without use of some deus ex machina-type devices that would almost totally ruin the whole campaign. Someone is going to get their hands on these weapons first and use them to devastating effect. That's just about the only thing that can happen.
I say if you want to run a pirate/naval adventure campaign then run one where the technology has been around and that's the way the world is. I'd suggest using Northern Crown as a basis for this kind of campaign. It has a great rule set for this kind of thing. I'm not saying you can't set it in GH, just not in the GH that we all know.
GVD, I think that the Ni'hon, Za'hind, and other people that sail the southern Vohoun Ocean / Pearl Sea might be the best way to introduce the smoke powder cannons that you plan to feature.
This way you don't need to retcon cannons into the Flanaess and can adjudicate the problems they create in campaign real-time or not at all, if the people of the Flanaess aren't able to adapt the Western magick that produces smokepowder within your campaign's timeline.
I like this idea quite a bit since even the magonels (rock shooting ballistas) discussed in Dragon 117 didn't feel like an adequate substitute for broadsides. (Also, the magonel appears to have been forgotten / never incorporated in subsequent TSR / Wizards publications.)
GVD, I think that the Ni'hon, Za'hind, and other people that sail the southern Vohoun Ocean / Pearl Sea might be the best way to introduce the smoke powder cannons that you plan to feature.
This way you don't need to retcon cannons into the Flanaess and can adjudicate the problems they create in campaign real-time or not at all, if the people of the Flanaess aren't able to adapt the Western magick that produces smokepowder within your campaign's timeline.
I like this idea quite a bit since even the magonels (rock shooting ballistas) discussed in Dragon 117 didn't feel like an adequate substitute for broadsides. (Also, the magonel appears to have been forgotten / never incorporated in subsequent TSR / Wizards publications.)
Thank you.
I like your suggestion, my only qualm is that Flanaess vessels will be at an immediate and significant disadvantage, at least at first, as compared to the ships of Ni'hon and Zahind.
True but that seems less like a problem and more like a distinctive campaign feature to me, especially if one determines that there are relatively fewer Zahind or Nihon ships that first encounter those from the Flanaess.
Or perhaps the ships of the Flanaess first encounter smokepowder cannons via the mixed-Olman pirates of the Vohoun, who only have salvaged a few guns?
Humiidity is hardly a constant over the ocean, so I don't think that's really going to be workable. Also, you'll need reasons why magical and mundane humidors and the like are not used to keep smokepowder 'stable' in those land areas where humidity is not optimum.
Loathe as I am to use smokepowder in Greyhawk, if you want to introduce it in your campaign - having massive Suhfangi junks armed with canon is the way to do it. Suhfang is big enough and old enough to have smokepowder.
If this puts Flanaessi ships at a disadvantage, then so be it. Who said the Flanaess had to be the most technically advanced seafaring region. Their lack of exploration shows that the Flanaessi are plainly not at the cutting edge of naval tech.
It'd be a great cure for would-be imperialists to have a Keosih/Shari/Ahlissan galleon raked with a broadside from a seven masted Suhfangi war-junk. It'd also make things more dramatic for the PCs by making them the underdogs. How to fight this technologically more advanced foe? Make clever use of magic, trickery, stealth, speed etcetcetc?
Actually the more I think on it, the more interesting this smokepowder from overseas idea becomes...
Thanks to Vormaerin for his critique of the humidity idea.
In the past, I've imagined that Suhfeng smokepowder was limited to the territory of its empire by a spiritual resonance that other lands lack.
If we eschew that idea and instead hold that Suhfang smokepowder works because it was crafted by wu-jen (and shugenja) who know a secret that allows it to be used by anyone (but created only by them), then we don't need humidity and can nicely limit the original impact of smokepowder because most ships must make do with their original stores. And even if an armada contains skilled wujen and shugenja, we can imagine that they'd be loyal to their state and difficult to capture.
If most smokepowder is used in combat, and the Suhfang, et al., have an advantage over the navies of the Flanaess, then relatively little smokepowder will likely fall into hands that can get it to minds that can analyze it. Even if some was brought to Kro Terlep, Irongate, Rel Astra, or Gradsul, it likely would have degraded significantly--frustrating analysis.
In later years, the powerful of the Flanaess might gain access to it, but again this can be put off until one's southern seas / smokepowder campaign ends, or be part of the story, as the DM wishes.
Last edited by mtg on Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Well I am loathe to introduce canon or gun of any kind into GH, I see GH as a sword and sorcery game NOT a pseudo-pirate or a wargame with the troops all in a row.
If you must, then I feel a western power like the Sefang Empire should have the secret, make the making of it an imperial state secret with the developers safely given lavish lifestyles and labs with guards at the doors (concentration purposes). The powder should be impossible to replicate without training or guidence (all but impossible).
As for the magonels (rock shooting ballistas), given the effectiveness of combat magic (fireball) and the fragile nature of ships plus the underwater threats perhaps the majority of nations felt magic and sharp boarding actions were more effective.
You can always abandon ship with a mage who can help you survive not so a magonels (rock shooting ballistas).
As for the magonels (rock shooting ballistas), given the effectiveness of combat magic (fireball) and the fragile nature of ships plus the underwater threats perhaps the majority of nations felt magic and sharp boarding actions were more effective.
I am loath to make magic common enough to replace the broadside. I understand the reluctance to make gunpowder too common, and share it, but I have an equal fear of making magic too common, as well. _________________ GVD
I am not claiming a mage on every ship but their must be a reason that fleets of GH aren't clashing more besides the cost perhaps the fear of magic and monsters have created a boarding ship combat culture.
Well - mages are relatively rare (rare enough that most ships wouldn't have one) and siege engines are expensive, slow and fairly ineffective.
So the only alternative is ramming and/or getting in close to rake the other fella with conventional missiles while trying to board and subdue/kill the opposing crew.
I am not claiming a mage on every ship but their must be a reason that fleets of GH aren't clashing more besides the cost perhaps the fear of magic and monsters have created a boarding ship combat culture.
Perhaps they are not clashing more simply because the potential for conflict doesn't exist. Remember the following facts:
1. The Flanaess has a very low population density. That means a lot less ships are going to be around right from the start.
2. The majority of the Flanaess is land-locked, and a major group is on the wrong of an ice shelf.
What does that leave?
1. The Thillronian barbarians. They raid in longboats, and won't engage in too many massive fleet actions.
2. Ratik. A non-starter. They don't have the ability to project a fleet of any relevance.
3. The GK of NA. Fairly strong, but with too many enemies, and too much of a focus on land based expansion.
4. The Sea Barons. Fairly strong, but they suffered major losses during the GH Wars, and have too many nearby enemies. They will avoid major engagements these days.
5. Rel Astra and the Solnor Compact. Fairly weak, they are a loose confederation that needs time to build, and they have too many enemies.
6. Lordship of the Isles. Fairly strong, stronger as a tool of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Way overextended as a result.
7. The Scarlet Brotherhood. Very strong, but with massive recent losses, and absurdly overextended.
8. Irongate. Fairly strong, but they need to obsess about the Scarlet Brotherhood, limiting their operations.
9. Onnwal. Very weak, they are rebuilding.
10. UK of Ahlissa. Fairly strong, a large portion of their navy was overrun by the SB, and more has been lost fighting the SB. I doubt they can project much beyond Relmor Bay at the moment. Further, most of their effort is shifting to trade.
11. Nyrond. Very weak. Nyrond is never mentioned as a significant naval power. It can be expected that all of their force is directed at the SB.
12. Greyhawk. Weak. They are a mercantile power, not a military power, and what military force they have is focused on the Pomarj.
13. The Pomarj. Very weak. They have begun rebuilding the slavelord fleet, but have too many enemies, and too little internal cohesion.
14. Principality of Ulek. Very strong, but focused on the Pomarj.
15. Keoland. Strong but in need of major rebuilding, and focused on the Hold of the Sea Princes.
16. Hold of the Sea Princes. All but destroyed in the GH Wars. There are pirates, but they are only significant because no fleet can spare time off from dealing with national enemies to extirpate them.
Areas of Conflict:
1. Northern Solnor
Fighting between barbarian raiders, Sea Barons, and GK of NA coastal fleets will be endemic, but minor, limited to less than a few ships per side at most.
3. Southern Solnor
Constant piracy involving the Sea Barons, Solnor Compact, and Lordship of the Isles. This will mainly be single ship encounters.
4. Western Azure
Low level piracy involving the SB, Irongate, and bolder UK of Ahlissa merchants. The SB will have gone over to treachery rather than direct conflict, and barratry and hijacking are more likely.
5. Relmor Bay
Quiet. Nyrond and the UK of Ahlissa have no reason to fight.
6. Wooly Bay
Constant piracy and counter-piracy, likely involving small squadrons. Should Turrosh Mak attack, there will be full fleet actions for a week or two until one side is destroyed.
7. NW Azure Sea
Rapidly diminishing piracy as the Keoish navy rebuilds. Minor skirmishing between the Principality of Ulek and any Pomarj ships that try operating in the Azure Sea. This will gradually decline and turn mostly to monster attacks.
8. Jeklea Bay
Pure chaos, spiraling into total calm due to attrition. Most people here have no desire to take prisoners or surrender, so prizes are few, leading to a constantly shrinking number of ships. Barring outside involvement, the pirates will inevitably win, at which point they won't have any one to attack.
Even with cannon, major fleet actions are going to have to wait in the Flanaess.
Perhaps they are not clashing more simply because the potential for conflict doesn't exist.
Of course, the absence of major fleet actions doesn't mean that there aren't tactics for ship to ship actions.
And we know from canon that there have been major fleet actions in the past.
Samwise wrote:
2. Ratik. A non-starter. They don't have the ability to project a fleet of any relevance.
Well - they do have the lumber, if not the manpower. If they allied with the Frutzti, they'd be a force to be reckoned with.
Samwise wrote:
3. The GK of NA. Fairly strong, but with too many enemies, and too much of a focus on land based expansion.
However, the NK does have to field a strong defensive force against raids from the barbarians and Sea Baron's privateers. Further, given that most of it's landward borders are with Ahlissa, the NK's sea trade is an important lifeline. Therefore defending it is even more important. There won't be fleet actions, but there will be one on one raiding/defence.
Samwise wrote:
4. The Sea Barons. Fairly strong, but they suffered major losses during the GH Wars, and have too many nearby enemies. They will avoid major engagements these days.
Though again, they'll face raids from the longboats of the north and the odd Duxchan privateer ranging up into the Aerdi Sea.
Samwise wrote:
10. UK of Ahlissa. Fairly strong, a large portion of their navy was overrun by the SB, and more has been lost fighting the SB. I doubt they can project much beyond Relmor Bay at the moment. Further, most of their effort is shifting to trade.
Eh? Overrun by the SB? When? Most of the Prymp fleet was allowed to rot to its keels (for which the relevent admiral was executed by Reydrich IIRC) or burnt by Nyrondese raids in 585 CY, but that aside, I don't remember any overrunning by the Brotherhood.
The shift to trade will mean more naval vessels to defend the fleets (and sink the odd compeditor) and thus more chance of a clash for supremacy with the SB and LoI (and eventually the Sea Barons) in the eastern Azure and Aerdi Seas (once Pontylver recovers).
Samwise wrote:
11. Nyrond. Very weak. Nyrond is never mentioned as a significant naval power. It can be expected that all of their force is directed at the SB.
I wouldn't call them very weak. Marklands mentions Nyrond's navy several times and they were able to launch fireball attacks on Prymp in 585 CY according to Ivid the Undying. Though they're no longer at war with the Ahlissans, Lynwerd will want to protect his south coast trade and make sure he doesn't cede naval control of Relmor Bay to the Ahlissans.
Samwise wrote:
4. Western Azure
Low level piracy involving the SB, Irongate, and bolder UK of Ahlissa merchants. The SB will have gone over to treachery rather than direct conflict, and barratry and hijacking are more likely.
The Azure, east and west, will soon become a cockpit between Keoland, the Iron League and Ahlissa on one hand and the LoI, SB on the other.
Oh and let's not forget the Dramidj - we know there's been some major naval skirmishing over there between the various powers.
Eh? Overrun by the SB? When? Most of the Prymp fleet was allowed to rot to its keels (for which the relevent admiral was executed by Reydrich IIRC) or burnt by Nyrondese raids in 585 CY, but that aside, I don't remember any overrunning by the Brotherhood.
I meant indirectly. Most of what would have been the UK of Ahlissa was overrun by the SB when they took Idee and Onnwal, the rest left sitting around.
Quote:
The Azure, east and west, will soon become a cockpit between Keoland, the Iron League and Ahlissa on one hand and the LoI, SB on the other.
In due course, but I doubt it will last long.
Quote:
Oh and let's not forget the Dramidj - we know there's been some major naval skirmishing over there between the various powers.
As I suggested, because of the Land of Black Ice, that is essentially a different setting when it comes to naval activity.
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But Skull & Bones and Corsairs are THAT good! 
