I am doing some Greyhawk design and I have come across a kind of a theoretical rough patch. I would like some input if I could get it. Here’s the deal.
When I design an area in any depth, I try to add some cultural details to a) remind the DM (me) of what the culture should be like and 2) to provide details so that Place A will be distinct from Place B in players’ minds. However, and this is a HUGE “however,” I am mindful that no one area should be outfitted with “everything.”
In our real world, for example (among other things), England is known for its fox hunting, Spain is known for its bullfighting, and America is known for its baseball. No one goes to Spain looking for the fox hunting; no one goes to England for the bullfights, and no one goes to either England or Spain for baseball.
When designing a fantasy country, following the above, one could create a country which had fox hunting, bullfighting and baseball, but it would loose verisimiltude if players were familiar with the national archetypes set out above (in this respect, players ignorant of much of the real world may be a blessing as “Christmas Tree Design” may go unnoticed or even be thought “cool”).
Anyhoo, I’m thinking about beer (using the term loosely to include lagers, ales, stouts, porters etc.) and where it is memorably made in the Flanaess. Of course, beer will be common in a number of countries but where is it “famous?” In our world, Germany has a reputation for its beers. To a lesser extent, England and Belgium have reputations for their own unique takes on “beer.” So where in the Flanaess would you find _the best_ beer?
It may be useful to think, as well, about liquid alternatives to beer. Water being unsafe to drink in a number of eras, folks looked for a way to “prepare” water to make it safe (to say nothing of any intoxicating effects). The point is then that if a place may not be “famous” for its beer, that doesn’t mean it is a lesser sort of place altogether (the fallacy behind Christmas Tree design). If a place is not famous for it beer it might be famous for its wine or whiskey or rum etc. So saying, “X doesn’t produce beer of any note” is not a knock on X (unless beer happens to be very important to you in a cultural sense).
All this said, which nation(s) or city(s) of the Flanaess might be most famous for its beers?
NB - A good book on this general topic is A History of the World in 6 Glasses by Tom Standage (Walker, publisher). It discusses the historical significance/origins of beer, wine, hard spirits, coffee, tea and soft drinks (from a very Western/European perspective for the most part). _________________ GVD
Here's my take on this:
Beer (ales, stouts, lagers, etc.) - Keoland, Geoff, Sterich, the Yeomanry and the Ulek states.
Mead - Fost, Snow and Ice Barbarians
Red Wines - Furyondy, Veluna and the Urnst countries
White Wines - Veluna
Rum - Hold of the Sea Princes
Brandy - Ket
Cognac - Veluna
Borubon - Nyrond
Whiskey - Nyrond
Coffee, Tea and Cocoa - these are typically grown and harvested in Hepmonaland and/or the Amdedio, but have been "perfected" in the Great Kingdom, though now in Ahlissa more than the North Kingdom. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I am sure someone with horticultural knowledge has tackled this important topic. For my meager contribution; IIRC - OJ #6 had an article on various potables and the nations known to brew them.
Found it: Tavern Fare
Also an article about a Dyvers tavern; One eye mug mentions ale is brewed locally - quite good ale. The tavern also sells mulled cider and elvish wines. The article has a price list attached.
Climate and soil can have an effect on this sort of thing. Hops grows quite well back home in western Oregon. That's part of the reason we have so many microbreweries.
I am sure someone with horticultural knowledge has tackled this important topic.
I detect a hint of . . .
Please pardon what I'm going to guess is an inexact expression of the following, but I have only a passing acquaintance with this theory. But here goes.
As I understand it, someone or someones have developed a theory that breaks gamers down into three categories - 1) Gamists, 2) Simulationists and 3) Narrativists. Or like that.
A friend of mind who is both a gamer and a model railroader explained the difference to me this way.
The Gamist is interested in getting the train to run and watching it run.
The Simulationist also wants to get the train to run but as or more important to him or her is the scenary, backdrops, and artificial landscape through which the train runs.
The Narrativist also wants to get the train to run but as or more important to him or her is telling stories about the train or imagining that they are running the train or switching yard. The Narrativist may or may not care about the scenary.
Of course, most people probably fall into each category to one degree or another. Me. I consider myself a Simulationist. Sure. I'm interested in killing monsters and taking their stuff. And I can appreciate gamers who are really into their PCs as almost living, breathing beings. But what turns my crank is building the world down to the finest detail. That includes beers of the Flanaess.
I've seen these online polls which say "What superhero are you?" or "What famous person are you?" The ones that ask a bunch of questions before telling you that you are the Hulk or Green Lantern or Douglas McArthur or Richard Nixon. If they had one for Gamist, Simulationist or Narrativist, I think I'd come out:
I want the game to perform well as a fun activity (Gamist-25%). But the best set of rules that is really fun to play has only a limited appeal to me if it doesn't have a depth that goes well beyond the game's basic play or that won't let me create such (Simulationist-65%). I'm really not much into amateur (and I don't mean that as a put down) theatrics or DMs or PCs as thespians, so my Narrativist needs are modest (Narrativist-10%).
I was the kid how invented new rules for Monopoly. Actually, I merged Monopoly with other games with a staggered turn system and interlocked victory conditions so that players played all the games at once and could use resources from one game in the others. I recall adding Masterpiece, Billionaire and some horse racing game whose name escapes me. So I grafted together a game of real estate acquisition, art collecting, big business (actually I think I had a game by that name too) and horse racing. In its final form, I think I had merged 8 or 10 games. It took forever to play but it had a staggering level of detail and in that seemed "real" to me. I loved it!
To this day, I go for a real "seeming" in my games in huge amounts of detail. My players don't take notes; they maintain notebooks (plural). One has described me as an "Info-DM" where combat and roleplaying in the sense of theatrics take a back seat to manipulating the environment through the gathering and use of information in and about the setting.
In putting together my games, I draw extensively on real world material which I then translate to the fantasy setting. I learn a lot in this way. I also learn from my players to whom I will give extra XP if they trouble shoot my game. For example, I ran a campaign back in the 90s that utilized a subsystem for gem classification beyond the Type I-IV. One of my players decided to do some research and proceeded to inform me that my system was flawed and they had developed a better system (to their PCs advantage of course). I looked it over, did some further reading, learned a lot more, and agreed with the player, who got a bunch of XP. I still use that system when the exact character of a gem matters - Color, Clarity, Cut, Carat Weight - it runs to more than a dozen pages of single spaced type, largely because it accounts for dozens of individual gem types (Citrines vs Olivines; White Diamonds vs. Blue Diamonds; Precious vs. Semi-Precious vs. Fancy vs. Decorative stones etc.). I love it! It adds to the real "seeming" of my game and I learned a tone about gem stones, which besides being interesting has paid off once or twice in real life.
So, are beers of the Flanaess "important?" I guess that depends on how much of a Simulationist you are. And/or whether you like beer. I like beer.
Talking to the choir; for me does the gameworld make sense does it feel real - provide a suspension of disbelief. Nothing I hate more when engaged within a world as a player, reader or writer then the dreaded - Come on moment - something happen that stretch the fabric of the world. Given it is a fantasy world some would say it isn't possible but it can be the most fanastical thing or the most mundane that destroys the feel of a session or article.
My comment on horticulture was based upom the legendary corn crop discussion. Given the GH fans; I am sure someone with more weather, altitude, soil and horticulture knowledge has already charted out GH potables. Someone - Somewhere - has a binder in a closet.
My comment on horticulture was based upom the legendary corn crop discussion. Given the GH fans; I am sure someone with more weather, altitude, soil and horticulture knowledge has already charted out GH potables. Someone - Somewhere - has a binder in a closet.
Bet you a beer
I had forgotten the Great Corn Flame War!
Crag wrote:
Someone - Somewhere - has a binder in a closet.
Bet you a beer
ROFL! Too funny! And likely too true! Its one of the things I like most about GH fans - obsessive compulsiveness! Its whats makes us all so fascinating! Well, that and the raging paranoia that everyone is out to do dirt to our favorite setting! _________________ GVD
So, are beers of the Flanaess "important?" I guess that depends on how much of a Simulationist you are. And/or whether you like beer. I like beer.
YMMV
From an "in game" perspective (Not the way you meant but I'm running with it) and reading about levels of alcohol consumption in earlier times in history I would say that beer is very important in the Flanaess.
Given also that most of the Flanaess is dominated by cultures derived from Old Oeridian culture, and considering there is a pretty prominent Oeridian goddess who is a patron of brewing, I'm guessing that beer is the dominant alcoholic beverage in the Flanaess. Sure there may be some areas where wine is more important (parts of Keoland and other places with strong infusions of Suel culture work for me) but beer is probably the more widespread.
The main regional differences will probably be based on what cereal crops are fermented, the method of preparing the cereal, and what bittering agents are used. Most will probably be ales in the modern usage but it's possible some lagers might have been developed, probably by Dwarves.
So I'm gonna toss that out. Havenhill and Irongate are well known for their production of so-called dwarven lagers. The main difference being that Havenhill lagers use hops to bitter them, while Irongate lagers rely on more traditional herbal infusions.
smillian's post reminded me that I had left out the demi-humans and humanoids! Dwarves are known for many alcoholic beverages, most especially heavy beers such as stouts, as well as strong whiskey. Elves produce many fine wines, as well as herbal (non-black) teas. Gnomes make a number of specialty liqueurs akin to drambuie, kirschwasser, chambord or absinthe, depending on the distiller's specialty; each of these are a mix of liquor and herbs in secret recipes. Halflings produce quality mead and herbal teas, but are more well-known for their pipeweed that any drinks. Very few humanoid peoples produce any drink of quality, though orcs do consume a foul beverage akin to kumiss - a fermented drink made from milk and blood. Goblins and their kin do produce a kind of mead that is unpalatable to all but their ilk. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Last edited by gargoyle on Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
So, are beers of the Flanaess "important?" I guess that depends on how much of a Simulationist you are. And/or whether you like beer. I like beer.
YMMV
Is beer important? Well that depends. Ever started out a game with "You're sitting in a tavern..."
And after all, how many barfights start from drinking too much tea? _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Halfling are primarily farmers - I can't see a halfling community at the harvest celebrations in honour of the bounty of Yondalla clamoring for tea - an ale barrel is flowing somewhere.
Halfling are primarily farmers - I can't see a halfling community at the harvest celebrations in honour of the bounty of Yondalla clamoring for tea - an ale barrel is flowing somewhere.
Well, yes, but are they known or even *famous* for their beer/ale/stout/etc.? I feel as not. This isn't to say others don't make various drinks; I'm sure there is elven beer, dwarven wine and orcish mead, but are they famous for it? _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Halfling are primarily farmers - I can't see a halfling community at the harvest celebrations in honour of the bounty of Yondalla clamoring for tea - an ale barrel is flowing somewhere.
Well, yes, but are they known or even *famous* for their beer/ale/stout/etc.? I feel as not. This isn't to say others don't make various drinks; I'm sure there is elven beer, dwarven wine and orcish mead, but are they famous for it?
I like the idea of elves as makers of mead. The beehives fit well with a sylvan home. They could also make wine out of berries, instead of the more usual grapes. This is how I see Celene.
Dwarven wine- sure, maybe Principality of Ulek has the right climate and soil for good grapes, with mountain valleys giving the right exposure on their slopes.
Naturally, it all depends on which region/nation/culture we are talking about. Just my opinion, of course!
Well, yes, but are they known or even *famous* for their beer/ale/stout/etc.? I feel as not. This isn't to say others don't make various drinks; I'm sure there is elven beer, dwarven wine and orcish mead, but are they famous for it?
No, they're famous for their pipe weed. Someone already said that, I don't remember who. Think about it. What else are they famous for? Their love of fine food. Or not so much fine food but lots of food. Their laziness wanting to lay about all the time. Always getting into trouble. Being generally cheerful and friendly but otherwise of no help what so ever.
Halfings are a bunch of pot smoking hippies. They are lazy, little, chubby, grubby, pot smoking hippies. Dirty feet and all.
Demihumans
Dwarf: Seen as earthy strong ale
Elf: Complex mead (honey types) and delicate wines (berries types)
Halfling: Herbal teas and infused herbal or fruit aperitifs/liqueurs
Gnome: Fruit Brandy
Orcs: Fermented blood and alcohol mixture
Rationales
Dwarves I have always seen as beer drinkers the stronger the better with their consitution no light beer for them.
Elves: Sylvan complex and delicate to surprise a jaded pallette - I like the honey and berry comments for the woodland angle - the large varieties offers endless possiblities for refinement.
Halflings: Herbal teas - bilbo lives (sigh) and infused herbal or fruit aperitifs and liqueurs - apertifs stimulate the appetite before the meal and liqueurs aid digestion following the meal - these drinks shout halfling.
Gnomes: Fruit brandy - specialized now - history of brandy originally made from random hillside forest fruits and fermented underground or within caves. The hill country connection and cave fermentation seem to fit the gnome very well and given their long lifespan the gnome has some exquisite spirits within their warrens.
Orcs: Fermented blood and alcohol mixture; I don't see orcs as happy herdsmen besides blood has natural sugars (glucose and dextrose) any natural sugar can be fermented. The orcs ferment blood and add whatever alcohol is currently available to make their vile punch.
Besides I would like to keep kumiss for use among the various nomads within GH.
If you answer no to this question, please just leave the thread... You cannot win here. I will gladly discuss beer, real, fictional, mythical, even the highly improbable but possible beer (which is what we made in high school).
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Halflings are...known or even *famous* for their beer/ale/stout/etc.? -- Gargoyle
Well, I am not sure that this is the best way to say it. IMO the halflings are like the Irish... They are famous for how much beer they drink... the fact that they brew some excellent beers is not really relevent, as they generally drink all that is available.
As to beer in the game... I know little about the historic realities of beer. However, I did see a show some time ago on beer, alcohol and colonial times. The impression I got was that most people brewed their own beer, or it was brewed very locally due to the lack of pasturizing/preservatives. If I understand correctly, this very problem was the genesis of India Pale Ale. IPA was developed so that beer could be shipped to the troops in India.
In addition, beer and other alcoholic beverages were drank at nearly every meal, because people did not understand that it was the boiling and brewing that cleansed the harmful vapors (or they could have boiled water). I am betting that they did not want to understand.
Therefore, beer is probably less dependant upon agriculture and more dependant on the quality of the roads and the ability to ship it quickly. THerefore Hookhill, and other trade centers with good roads would most likely develop a reputation for beer.
In the same vein, it is my understanding that wine, from the fall of rome to the time of Thomas Jefferson was only lightly alcoholic and primarily vinegar. THis was due to the fact that europeans stopped using wax stoppered amphora (because clay jars did not do well without roads), and started using wooden casks. The wooden casks started shrinking after a period, and the wine often turned vinegary. THis problems was not solved until the late 1700s when glass wine bottles with corks came into common use. I believe I read this in the writings of thomas jefferson.
Final note, Orlane was famous for wine in Cult of the Reptile God.
At the Inn of the Welcome Wench (that's in Hommlett, Viscounty of Verbobonc, for those too young to remember ) they serve two kinds of beer, a regular and special ale, a regular and special brew mead, plus various wines: table, Keoish golden, Urnst white, Celene ruby, Sundish lilac, Furyondian emerald pale, and Velunan fireamber. There's also a local brandy, a Keoish brandy and an aged special Urnst brandy. And for your "top shelf" selection, an "Ulek Elixir liqueur" for only 5 (2nd Ed.) gold pieces a half gill.
The T1 module was my first foray into the World of Greyhawk, many years ago, and one of the first fantasy worlds I wanted to actually visit and buy a drink in!
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I love it! It adds to the real "seeming" of my game and I learned a tone about gem stones, which besides being interesting has paid off once or twice in real life.
And/or whether you like beer. I like beer. 
