Nyrond used to serve a specific metagame function. It was tied into the history of the dissolution of the greater Great Kingdom and it served as a military counterweight to what was left of the disintegrating Great Kingdom. Then came FtA.
The Great Kingdom completely dissolved. Nyrond in its former incarnation pre-FtA would have dominated the FtA-era successor states. Arguably, none of these successor states (Ahlissa, GK of the North etc.) need a Nyrond counterweight as they are counterweighted against each other.
So, what purpose does Nyrond now serve in a metagame context? Carl Sargent had no answer as he chose to all but dissolve Nyrond from its former position - a "victim" of the war - the lamer excuse. But let's except that. Now what? A perpetual "sick man" of the Flanaess? To what end? We have more than enough similar areas by degrees in the Shield Lands, the BKs, Tenh, the Wild Coast, the Hold etc.
Nyrond is too big to ignore and if it were thought to leave it as a state teetering on anarchy or dissolution or a "sick man" that would have HUGE regional consequences, not the least being Ahlissa economically, if not militarily, coming to dominate Nyrond. In which case Nyrond all but goes away. Substitute the Urnst States if your prefer or the Pale. So back to the original question - Who needs Nyrond? Shouldn't Nyrond just disappear like a larger version of Almor?
It's a counterweight to Keoland's new imperialist goals!
I don't know that every nation actually needs a metagame reason for existing, as long as they're interesting in their own right. It's true that I've always seen Nyrond as the least interesting of the nations of the Flanaess - it's very generic-fantasy in a way the others are not - but I think it has potential.
Perhaps Nyrond could undergo an imperialist phase of its own, attempting to swallow up the other post-Aerdi states and regain its territories in the Urnsts. The fact that it's primarily dedicated to Heironeous, while Hextor is still popular in the North Aerdy and Ahlissa, would add another wrinkle to that complexity, with the Hextorians on the defensive for once.
Anyone who thinks Marklands is the best damn supplement ever produced for the World of Greyhawk (and I think you can guess where I stand on that).
Anyone who wants a kingdom rife for a dynastic struggle (LG Nyrond did that plot line a grave disservice).
Everyone west of the Harp once the Great Kingdom is reunited.
Nyrond has always been the counterweight and bulwark against Aerdy. It remains so - even if there are, temporarily, two Aerdys now. It holds the line against the Bone March in the east, the Palish in the north, and it's the only realm capable of preventing Xavener turning the waters north of the Straits of Gearnat into an Ahlissan lake.
Were Nyrond to splinter - the Urnsts would have no peace or prosperity. They'd certainly take splash damage from the warring between the various factions and magnates. Onnwal and Irongate would follow the fate of Idee, leaving only Sunndi caught between the Nightingales of Ahlissa and the bullywugs of the Hopping Prophet. Except for a few patches of light here and there, you could write off the Flanaess east of the Nyr Dyv as a haven for goodly men. There's a reason the Urnsts and the Domain of Greyhawk spent so much gold propping up Archbold and Lynwerd during and after the Wars.
Imperial Nyrond is a non-starter. It's been done to death and is not at all in Lynwerd's nature. Its possible under Sewedernt - though he'd only be accepted if the fragmentation of the realm was the alternative - and even then, Oberend and others in Lynwerd's circle (Myriken and the entire Nyrondese Church of Heironious) would prefer just rebellion to unjust tyranny.
Nyrond is unique in the Flanaess as it's a powerful goodly kingdom with a strong central feudal authority - the England of the Flanaess (as opposed to Furyondy - which is more like France, or Keoland - which is like the Holy Roman Empire with a spine).
Boring? Pah! Nyrond is rife with possibility! If it's shades of grey you want - you've got Good vs Good with the Pale (and Valourous League); Good v Good in the Celedon; Good vs Good in Almor (Almorians vs Nyrondese). Scheming nobles (Duke Korenflass was terribly close to the good king's brother...what conspiracies lurk in the undercity of Oldred?). There's the dead hand of Archbold's old guard in the Court - Durinken, Arafeld and their ilk, chafing and chivying against the radical polices of the young king (trade with Ahlissa may have delighted Palendrenn, but old Arafeld would have blown a gasket). Despite the signs of miraculous recovery - Nyrond still bears the scars of the Wars - the ones that run deep and don't show on the surface - dirty secrets, corrupt officals, hidden crimes. Nyrond is the hope of the Oerids and yet, like every good hero, it is flawed - by pride, by the sins of the fathers and the ambitions of their sons.
Nyrond is the subject of the single most epic passage in Greyhawk canon:
"The great and the good flee Nyrond in droves. They go to Urnst, Greyhawk, and the other free cities, even to Furyondy, Veluna and beyond. This exodus has weakened the kingdom further. Some Nyrondese see their powerful mages and scholars leave them, and they feel lost and betrayed, sinking into despair. Others grow angry, cursing those who have left, determined now to stand up and prove to the craven and the feckless that Nyrond might yet survive."
This passage has been the basis of our home campaign (the Mighty Fallen) for the last 13 years - and let me tell you, there's nothing boring about Nyrond.
Interesting rasgon, especially since Nyrond can use the Crandens as middle men with ahlissa, since ahlissa wants to polish it's image and distance itself from the Hextorians which outside of North Kingdom should be resented in part for the collapse of the GK.
Given the political and economic factors both Ahlissa and Nyrond have powerful interests to open dialogue even if it takes time to overcome distrust (crandens as mediators) should cause alarm in the west and north.
Add in some Nyrond resentment of the ingratitude of the nations that Nyrond protected for centuries and all of a sudden every nation is scrambling for Nyrond's friendship as no one knows what she will do next.
Even in the "rebuilding" which is understandable Nyrond could become a hotbed of espionage as each try to maintain Nyronds' support, while sabotaging rivals.
Imperial Nyrond is a non-starter. It's been done to death and is not at all in Lynwerd's nature. Its possible under Sewedernt - though he'd only be accepted if the fragmentation of the realm was the alternative - and even then, Oberend and others in Lynwerd's circle (Myriken and the entire Nyrondese Church of Heironious) would prefer just rebellion to unjust tyranny.
Interesting. Paul, I'd like to hear your thoughts about dynastic struggle in Nyrond. I'm especially interested in hearing your discussion of why the church of Heironeous wouldn't accept Sewardnt, e.g., if Lynwerd died and couldn't be resurrected, and Sewardnt had the best claim to the throne, i.e., wasn't crassly responsible for his brother's death.
As long as we are metagaming I think it is obvious from the 83 Guide intro that Nyrond serves as a foundation of the Flanaess' modern growth. It is one of the centers of enlightenment (University of Rel Mord) that is at least hinted at existing nearly 400 years from present. I shudder to think what calamities might befall the regions outside Nyrond in 400 years ;)
As long as we are metagaming I think it is obvious from the 83 Guide intro that Nyrond serves as a foundation of the Flanaess' modern growth. It is one of the centers of enlightenment (University of Rel Mord) that is at least hinted at existing nearly 400 years from present. I shudder to think what calamities might befall the regions outside Nyrond in 400 years ;)
Well actually, all that means is:
1. Rel Mord is part of a major imperial nation
2. Rel Mord contains a royal university
Neither of those requires Rel Mord to be a capital, or part of Nyrond.
I think it is a tribute to the commitment of the royal family of Keoland to higher education that they would endow a branch of the Keoish Royal University in a backwater like Rel Mord. I'm just amazed there are enough people there who can read to attend it.
Keoland, bah! The United Kingdom of Ahlissa with the backing of dozens of Temple-Banks of Zilchus will rule the Flanaess economically someday. Nyrond will be bailed out of debts by the deep pockets of Zilchus and in centuries to come it will come back to haunt them.
The UKA will keep Rel Mord nice and safe for a few centuries until Keoland is ready to annex it.
Keoland would thank them, but the UKA will pass into history itself in due course, and no one will bother remembering them.
Well - we know that Sewedernt covets the throne. That's plain from his coup attempt. There are a lot of strong hints in Marklands, that the Black Prince had some (secret) backing in the ranks of Nyrond's senior nobility, notably Duke Korenflass of Oldred, to whom he was close. It's likely that there are other players in the conspiracy - those who haven't prospered or stand to lose under Lynwerd or who see Sewedernt's "moral flexibility" as being a better opportunity for profit and power than his noble brother or who perhaps share Sewedernt's more old school imperialistic tendencies. Were he cunning enough, Sewedernt might cultivate supportors among the Almorians - promising to restore their realm should he take the throne - esp. since Lynwerd seems disinclined to do the same just now.
Set against that you have the King's Men - people like Oberend of Hendrenn Halgood, Ghilseen, Myaraken, Cunal Blackmarr of Mowbrenn. Mostly young nobles who supported Lynwerd's claim and see him as Nyrond's only hope for recovering its greatness. There's not a chance in hell that they'd stand to see Sewedernt take the throne (quite apart from the fact that their lives would be very much in danger, given their loyalties).
As for the Heironians, they've have already cast their lot against Sewedernt when they defended the capital and the Royal Palace from him and his supporters during the coup. Now if Lynwerd were to die without issue, there'd certainly be a strong faction that would grudgingly accept Sewedernt, attempted usurper or no. On the other hand, there'd be an equally strong, if not stronger, faction that'd declare that having been branded a traitor to the realm, he had forfeited his right to the throne.
Then there's the Valourous League, who'd gladly use any chaos in the kingdom to try to hive off Midmeadow, Borneven and their lands around Greenplane and Arndulanth and ask for annexation by the Pale - all in the name of maintaining law and order and the One True Path, of course.
Cue a serious crisis for Nyrond - as the great and the good are forced to decide between accepting an attempted usurper and traitor (and possible kinslayer) and tearing the realm apart for the cause of right and the memory of a good and just man*.
In short - while Lynwerd remains without an heir (and while any heir he has is in his minority), Nyrond's situation remains very precarious. For the good of the entire eastern Flanaess, Lynwerd must live. When that becomes clear to your adventuring party (as it became clear to ours in TMF), Nyrond becomes a very interesting place indeed.
* (Song of Ice and Fire Spoiler):
*
*
*
It's not unlike the situation in Westeros in A Game of Thrones when Robert Baratheon dies and the likes of Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr fight on in his name. In fact, if you want a Game of Thrones style campaign of intrigue, betrayal and civil war, then Nyrond is the place to kick it off. Put your PCs in the thick of it and let them influence what sort of Nyrond emerges from the bloodletting.
Anyone who thinks Marklands is the best damn supplement ever produced for the World of Greyhawk (and I think you can guess where I stand on that).
Anyone who wants a kingdom rife for a dynastic struggle (LG Nyrond did that plot line a grave disservice).
Everyone west of the Harp once the Great Kingdom is reunited.
Nyrond has always been the counterweight and bulwark against Aerdy. It remains so - even if there are, temporarily, two Aerdys now. It holds the line against the Bone March in the east, the Palish in the north, and it's the only realm capable of preventing Xavener turning the waters north of the Straits of Gearnat into an Ahlissan lake.
If you set aside the home campaigns that you have enjoyed flowing out of the Marklands (recognizing, in part, that a good DM can run a good campaign almost anywhere) and if you set aside the LG material, which is uncollected and unpublished to the wider GH community and thus not canon, the question posed remains.
Nyrond is now a counterweight to nothing. It holds the line against nothing. It is Gulliver beset by Lilliputians that threaten to bind the giant. The Urnst States thrive. The Pale in on the march. Ahlissa is a rising power. None of these states gain by seeing Nyrond recover. All gain by seeing Nyrond remain the "sich man of the Flanaess" or be dismembered or be coopted. Indeed, it is hard to see a logical series of events flowing from the status quo that would see Nyrond and rebound to the position of power it once held. _________________ GVD
Nyrond is the Poland of the Flanaess.
The Pale, Urnsts, and UKA will get together to partition it.
Insouciantly put but it seems that way. Rephrasing my initial query - why isn't the above true? What is gained by saving Nyrond? What purpose served? Why shouldn't its fate be to be carved up?
And secondarily, assuming a reason for saving Nyrond can be found, how would one "save" Nyrond and restore it to a position of power and relevance? _________________ GVD
/me digs out his dictionary to see if putting something "insouciantly" is a bad thing
The answer, like virtually all answers to GH development questions, is:
"Because you fell like making Nyrond an empire, and reducing its neighbors."
Let's say I blather off the top of my head on the concept:
1. King Lynwerd increases his direct actions to rebuild Nyrond.
2. He forges stronger alliances with the Flinty Hills gnomes through a combination of adventuring parties attacking evil critter lairs, patrols attacking humanoid raiding parties, and massive arms contracts.
3. Building on the increasing prestige, he strikes a deal with Nystul to help the Tenha. Exchanging arms recently purchased from the Gnomes of the Flinty Hills for "support," he helps Ehyeh establish a foothold in Tenh.
4. He strikes into the Pale, offering support to Tenha refugees who are disgusted with having their faith suppressed. The campaign is brutal, with the Palish fighting for their faith, but Lynwerd has Tenha fighting for their faith to bolster his forces. In the end, the Pale is annexed to Nyrond by way of Ehyeh or another Tenha intermediary, who appeals to the Flan elements to support him and begin the liberation of Tenh.
5. Lynwerd looks to the Bone March as providing the best chance for expansion. He allies with Knurl, promising the Count title over the whole Bone March, and Ratik, promising the Archbaron the Loftwood and other lands, and invades.
6. The North Kingdom sends minor aid, but can't send more due to increased barbarian raids (arranged by Ratik through their Fruztii allies), Sea Baron Raids (arranged by Drax after Lynwerd promises him Winetha), and the situation with the UKA (Xavener doesn't realize the scope of Lynwerd's plan).
7. Nyrond manages to clear significant portions of the Bone March, and Lynwerd's prestige soars even higher.
8. Lynwerd arranges a dynatic marriage with Xavener, and agrees to split the North Kingdom with him. Both realize it is merely a temporary arrangement, and expect to deal with the other by other means in the future. Grenell doesn't have a chance, and the North Kingdom dies.
9. Lynwerd deals with the Urnsts from a position of strength. Surprising many, he makes no demands for territory, alliance, or tribute, and instead simply agrees to recognize various border claims of both, defusing tensions significantly, and securing Nyrond's western border for decades.
10. Lynwerd's heir arranges a dynastic marriage with Ehyeh III's heir. Lynwerd's grandson becomes King of Nyrond with Tenh as a cognate family holding, which gradually evolves into a dual monarchy.
11. Lynwerd's grandson begin pressing the UKA on various border issues, citing various inheritance factors, ala Louis XIV and the Wars of Devolution.
12. Lynwerd's grandson makes a deal with Drax and the remnants of the Iron League, and the new "Golden League" invades the UKA, and separates considerable territory. Specifically, Drax gets all of Medegia and clear title to Pontlyver, Idee is liberated and restored to the Iron League, and Nyrond gains all lands north of Rauxes.
And continue from there.
Of course, I'd rather just partition Nyrond.
Nyrond is now a counterweight to nothing. It holds the line against nothing. It is Gulliver beset by Lilliputians that threaten to bind the giant. The Urnst States thrive. The Pale in on the march. Ahlissa is a rising power. None of these states gain by seeing Nyrond recover. All gain by seeing Nyrond remain the "sich man of the Flanaess" or be dismembered or be coopted. Indeed, it is hard to see a logical series of events flowing from the status quo that would see Nyrond and rebound to the position of power it once held.
Oh come on.
The Urnsts are thriving because they have a friendly, relatively stable giant neighbour to their east, instead of a series of fractured, warring successor states (oh and the new Palish southern frontier abutting their own). It is no way in the Urnsts' interest to see Nyrond gone or weakened. Strong and endebted, yes; a sick man, no.
The Pale would like to expand south - but its commitments in Tenh preclude them sending an army in to slug it out against the numerically superior Nyrondese. The smarter move for them is to funnel aid to the Valourous League and hope the realm does fragment. Then they can take advantage of the chaos to march in to "restore order" to the northlands (in the same way they're "restoring order" to Tenh).
Ahlissa is certainly rising - but it has enough problems on its hands without stirring Nyrond to ire. Xavener will never risk a war with Rel Mord while the North Kingdom still threatens.
If Nyrond is holding no lines (aside from the Bone March, obviously), then it surely has the breathing space and peace it needs to rebuild.
There's no logical series of events that would see it regain its former power? Try some peace and prosperity. It's a huge, rich, populous kingdom. The reason it's weak is because it was bled white during the Wars, not because of any inherent weakness in itself (aside from prideful kings and stupid generals - all of who have been superceded by a more pragmatic generation). All Nyrond needs is some time to recoup the losses in manpower and enough trade to refill the king's coffers. That's it - no need for a crazy series of conquests and wars. In that regard, Lynwerd's priorities are similar to Xavener's - foster a period of calm in which to rebuild for the wars to come.
Regarding Sam's list:
1: Yes
2: Yes - he needs the buffer and the revenue flow from the silver mines
3: Yes - though the blade shops of Nyrond would surely suffice. Any aid he gives Tenh puts pressure on the Palish there and reduces the threat to his own frontiers.
4: No - The Palish would put up a fierce fight. Lynwerd would only take to the field against the Pale if the Tenhas were facing certain defeat. Even then, the presence of several Nyrondese armies on their southern border would probably be enough to persuade the Palish to cease and desist. If it came to blows, Lynwerd would be mad to try to hold the Pale. Destroying their armies is one thing, holding the ground entirely another. It didn't work for Dunstan, it's not going to work for Lynwerd.
5: Yes and no - even if he doesn't plan on occupying the March - alliances with Ratik and Knurl are no-brainers. I doubt Lynwerd would invade unless he had the manpower to hand and that's years down the line. Also - it's not in Lynwerd's interests to weaken the NK so much that it leaves Xavener with a walk-over. Nyrond can only benefit from a bloody second Turmoil between the Crowns. When that does kick off, Lynwerd might well take advantage of the chaos and annex the March once its strength has been drawn off to fight Ahlissa.
6: Yes - but it's the UKA and perhaps the Fruztii that's tying the NK up. Drax has no interest in seeing either the NK or the UKA gaining the upper hand, since either way, it'll mean the end of the Compact's independence. Winetha is small beer when he could potentially lose his entire realm by sticking one in the back of the NK.
7: Likely, if allied with Ratik and Knurl and the NK is at war in the south.
8: No. Again, it's in Nyrond's interest for Ahlissa to expend as much strength as possible taking down the NK so that it won't get any ideas about coming north of the Harp or Teesar Torrent. And neither Xavener nor Lynwerd would want to give the other claims on each other's thrones.
9: Yes. And he'd have done this way before he'd have rattled any sabres in the Pale.
10: Perhaps. I'm sure there are more strategic marriages to be had though. If he were truely thinking in the big picture, marriages to the Furyondi or Keoish royal houses would be better. Not to say if he had a spare son or daughter, he might not strengthen Nyrond's claims in the north though.
11: Possibly - by that stage, the Great Kingdom is once more a threat and Nyrond has recovered its strength.
12: Possibly - but I don't see them doing any better than any other Nyrondese king. Once the NK is destroyed, the Compact and the Barons are next. It's possible that Lynwerd might use that opportunity to draw the line vs Xavener - but Ahlissa will have all the resources of the old Great Kingdom (minus the Compact and Barons) at that stage (not to mention its vast population). I don't see them making signficant in roads.
The smart play for Xavener with regard to the Compact is to foment opposition and rebellion against Drax and then buy out the rebels with titles and wealth. That way the Compact returns to the motherland without need to direct Ahlissan involvement, thus denying Nyrond an opportunity to intervene.
P.
PS: And since when did the Urnst become a superpower. Wealthy yes, powerful enough to think about carving up and holding chunks of Nyrond?
Ha - that's a joke.
Some instructive population stats:
Nyrond: 2.6 million
Urnst, County: 680,000
Urnst, Duchy:750,000
Pale: 390,000
Even combined the three Liliputians only amount to 1.8 million and that's assuming the Urnsts were (a) willing to work in concert and (b) consumed with some species of lunacy where sharing their new expanded and difficult to defend borders with the Pale, Ahlissa and the resentful remains of rump Nyrond is seen as sound foreign policy.
Where does all this hostility towards Nyrond come from ?
Nyrond is simply exhausted not fatally flawed, Lynwerd has begun the reforms to pull it back from the brink. All Nyrond needs is time to allow its resources and population a chance to recover, much like its main eastern rivals (Ahlissa and NK).
With no immediate viable external threat and the Lynwerd reforms stabilizing internal dissention, much like ahlissa, Nyrond should begin to slowly regain its strength. Not overnight but recover none the less.
Remember Nyrond was an extremely prosperous nation as it recovers confidence within and among its refuggees to return also increases which further strengthens the realm.
Externally the Urnst states dread a choactic Nyrond, Tenha provides a vivid argument against a partioned Nyrond as well as distracting Urnsts and the pale. Quietly in the short term Lynwerd probably hopes the stalemate continues even the pale solidifying its hold in the south easing pressure on the northern border since the fists left but still causing the pale casualities.
Regarding Sam's list:
4: No - The Palish would put up a fierce fight. Lynwerd would only take to the field against the Pale if the Tenhas were facing certain defeat. Even then, the presence of several Nyrondese armies on their southern border would probably be enough to persuade the Palish to cease and desist. If it came to blows, Lynwerd would be mad to try to hold the Pale. Destroying their armies is one thing, holding the ground entirely another. It didn't work for Dunstan, it's not going to work for Lynwerd.
You are not including two factors I took pains to include:
A. They do in fact have the Tenha, who can be as fanatical as the Palish.
B. Lynwerd isn't really holding the Pale, the Tenha are. That way Lynwerd can play the "good cop" helping out whenever Ehyeh gets out of line, while at the same time encouraging Ehyeh to go over the top encouraging Flan and Flan-faith extremism among formally surppressed people in the Pale.
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5: Yes and no - even if he doesn't plan on occupying the March - alliances with Ratik and Knurl are no-brainers. I doubt Lynwerd would invade unless he had the manpower to hand and that's years down the line. Also - it's not in Lynwerd's interests to weaken the NK so much that it leaves Xavener with a walk-over. Nyrond can only benefit from a bloody second Turmoil between the Crowns. When that does kick off, Lynwerd might well take advantage of the chaos and annex the March once its strength has been drawn off to fight Ahlissa.
Not necessarily so. If a second Turmoil devastates the land, Lynwerd inherits devastated land. If instead he can manage to seize the majority of the land intact after a short, sharp, war, he stands to gain more than Xavener.
Also note, the UKA has a lot more enemies active. At this point, Lynwerd/Nyrond will be down to one - the UKA, with Drax a distant second.
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8: No. Again, it's in Nyrond's interest for Ahlissa to expend as much strength as possible taking down the NK so that it won't get any ideas about coming north of the Harp or Teesar Torrent. And neither Xavener nor Lynwerd would want to give the other claims on each other's thrones.
Why not? The Hapsburgs and Bourbons did it.
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10: Perhaps. I'm sure there are more strategic marriages to be had though. If he were truely thinking in the big picture, marriages to the Furyondi or Keoish royal houses would be better. Not to say if he had a spare son or daughter, he might not strengthen Nyrond's claims in the north though.
Why? Would either of them intervene in a war against the UKA?
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11: Possibly - by that stage, the Great Kingdom is once more a threat and Nyrond has recovered its strength.
12: Possibly - but I don't see them doing any better than any other Nyrondese king. Once the NK is destroyed, the Compact and the Barons are next. It's possible that Lynwerd might use that opportunity to draw the line vs Xavener - but Ahlissa will have all the resources of the old Great Kingdom (minus the Compact and Barons) at that stage (not to mention its vast population). I don't see them making signficant in roads.
The smart play for Xavener with regard to the Compact is to foment opposition and rebellion against Drax and then buy out the rebels with titles and wealth. That way the Compact returns to the motherland without need to direct Ahlissan involvement, thus denying Nyrond an opportunity to intervene.
Amd thus the smart move for Lynwerd and his heirs is to use Drax and the Compact as his main catspaw against Xavener and the UKA, with the promise of control of Pontlyver as the main carrot. In such a case, eliminating the NK, even if it means letting Xavener and the UKA have Rauxes and other areas for a time, is definitely higher on the agenda. Remember, Lynwerd might expect a better welcome as a liberator of the oppressed in the NK than he thinks Xavener will be received, and thus he'll assimilate the new lands faster, and be able to threaten Xavener sooner than the other way around. Nazis and USSR viz Poland as an example.
And mind you, that was done in 5 minutes for a Nyrond I don't intend to see as a superpower. I expect that if I really thought about it and really cared I could do a lot better.
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P.
PS: And since when did the Urnst become a superpower. Wealthy yes, powerful enough to think about carving up and holding chunks of Nyrond?
Ha - that's a joke.
Some instructive population stats:
Nyrond: 2.6 million
Urnst, County: 680,000
Urnst, Duchy:750,000
Pale: 390,000
Hey! That's my trick!
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Even combined the three Liliputians only amount to 1.8 million and that's assuming the Urnsts were (a) willing to work in concert and (b) consumed with some species of lunacy where sharing their new expanded and difficult to defend borders with the Pale, Ahlissa and the resentful remains of rump Nyrond is seen as sound foreign policy.
Except you forgot the UKA joining in, at least in my version coming by the end of the month.
Midmeadow and Flinty Hills to the Pale, south of the Duntide to the UKA, remainder to the Urnsts.
And it is more as a result of a complete splintering of the kingdom and step by step incorporation as various pieces join one side or other to avoid being conquered by another. ( i.e. Rel Mord becomes an Ahlissa Principality so it doesn't become a Palish See.)
You are not including two factors I took pains to include:
A. They do in fact have the Tenha, who can be as fanatical as the Palish.
B. Lynwerd isn't really holding the Pale, the Tenha are. That way Lynwerd can play the "good cop" helping out whenever Ehyeh gets out of line, while at the same time encouraging Ehyeh to go over the top encouraging Flan and Flan-faith extremism among formally surppressed people in the Pale.
And those factors will ensure that the Palish armies get a good kicking. That's not the issue. What Nyrond would find very hard to do is hold onto the Pale. I think you're overstating the level of Flan faith in the Pale. If there's one thing recent history has taught us, it's that its very hard even for a militerily superior force to hold onto a territory that doesn't want to be occupied, especially if the rebels are stiffened by religious fervour. Nyrond's interests are best served by a weak, contained Pale, rather than trying to hold a festering rebellion engine.
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Not necessarily so. If a second Turmoil devastates the land, Lynwerd inherits devastated land. If instead he can manage to seize the majority of the land intact after a short, sharp, war, he stands to gain more than Xavener. Also note, the UKA has a lot more enemies active. At this point, Lynwerd/Nyrond will be down to one - the UKA, with Drax a distant second.
You're assuming that taking the North Kingdom is a viable goal for Nyrond. I think it'd be madness, since it weakens Nyrond and gives it a long, hard to defend border, while leaving the real threat undiminished. Better to have the UKA weaken itself with a war with the NK and quietly support the independence of the Compact as a catspaw as you mention below.
Nyrond eliminating the NK serves them no stategic purpose whatsoever. While the NK exists, Xavener cannot contemplate moving against Nyrond.
And I don't think Lynwerd would at all be greeted as a liberator in the NK. As far as the Aerdi are concerned, Nyrond's a rebel state. Better to be conquered by a poper overking than by some degenerate Nehron rebel. So I don't hold with your thesis of rapid assimilation. I think, in fact, it'd be the exact opposite - the Torquanns, Atirrs and (surviving) Naelax would sooner follow a Darmen than a Rax-Nyrond.
Dynastic marriages: Neither has anything really to gain from a marriage. If there's to be peace between them, it'll not be determined by marriage, but by balance of other factors. If there's to be war, then giving the opposition a legitimate claim to the throne is foolish.
As for marriages with the other great powers - (1) A Keoish marriage - esp. with the Rhola - could indeed give Nyrond a lever to work on Ahlissa in the Azure and Gearnat Sea, as well as smoothing any tensions over exploration in the southern seas; (2) the Tenhas aren't going to be a whole lot of good against Ahlissa anyway.
As for the partition of Nyrond - that's even less likely.
The Urnsts best interests are to have a strong, endebted Nyrond warding their eastern borders.
I don't know how to put that more clearly, sort of lots of block caps and excalimation points.
They are not going to jump into bed with the Pale and Ahlissa in a triple alliance to destroy their greatest ally.
The Pale can't do anything while it's embroiled in Tenh and while Nyrond is in one piece. It's vert unlikely they'd consent to an alliance with Ahlissa to take on Nyrond either.
Ahlissa is constrained by the continuing existance of the NK (which is why Nyrond would be mad to mess with Eastfair).
The big threat to Nyrond is a dynastic struggle between Lynwerd and Sewedernt, or between Sewedernt and the King's men, if Lynwerd were to die without issue. A civil war in Nyrond would open the door to the likes of the Pale, the Bone March and Ahlissa to carve chunks out of the kingdom. But while Lynwerd lives and rules unchallenged, Nyrond is secure and on the road to recovering its old power. [/quote]
And those factors will ensure that the Palish armies get a good kicking. That's not the issue. What Nyrond would find very hard to do is hold onto the Pale. I think you're overstating the level of Flan faith in the Pale. If there's one thing recent history has taught us, it's that its very hard even for a militerily superior force to hold onto a territory that doesn't want to be occupied, especially if the rebels are stiffened by religious fervour. Nyrond's interests are best served by a weak, contained Pale, rather than trying to hold a festering rebellion engine.
Actually, I'm counting on the frenzy of suppressed peoples in a situation without rules of war restraints.
cf. pre-2003, not post-2003.
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You're assuming that taking the North Kingdom is a viable goal for Nyrond. I think it'd be madness, since it weakens Nyrond and gives it a long, hard to defend border, while leaving the real threat undiminished. Better to have the UKA weaken itself with a war with the NK and quietly support the independence of the Compact as a catspaw as you mention below.
That depends a lot on what the subordinate threats are. If the Urnsts are a no-go, Ratik is a strong ally, and Drax a strong tool, then the increased revenues are more beneficial.
Remember also, the UKA continues to have othe threats, viz the Iron League remnants and SB. (Obviously is this model the UKA-Sheldomar alliance to split the Azure Sea never develops. A prime reason I would reject it utterly except as an exercise. )
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Dynastic marriages: Neither has anything really to gain from a marriage. If there's to be peace between them, it'll not be determined by marriage, but by balance of other factors. If there's to be war, then giving the opposition a legitimate claim to the throne is foolish.
And yet that is how France wound up with the border regions north of the Pyrenees.
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As for marriages with the other great powers - (1) A Keoish marriage - esp. with the Rhola - could indeed give Nyrond a lever to work on Ahlissa in the Azure and Gearnat Sea, as well as smoothing any tensions over exploration in the southern seas; (2) the Tenhas aren't going to be a whole lot of good against Ahlissa anyway.
A Rhola marriage would be useful, but the Rhola have to secure the Azure without Ahlissa in this case, so they'd put off allying with Nyrond until later.
The Tenha, once their lands are liberated, at least to the Zumker, have little else to do but die for the greater glory of Nyrond, bringing all their Flan kinsmen in the forests with them. Remember that Brothers of the Bronze or whatever alliance of the Flan of the three forests surrounding Nyrond.
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As for the partition of Nyrond - that's even less likely.
The Urnsts best interests are to have a strong, endebted Nyrond warding their eastern borders.
I don't know how to put that more clearly, sort of lots of block caps and excalimation points.
They are not going to jump into bed with the Pale and Ahlissa in a triple alliance to destroy their greatest ally.
Heh. That was a bit of hyperbole. The more likely scenario is:
1. Nyrond collapses.
2. The Pale seizes Midmeadow and pushes into the Flinty Hills.
3. The UKA seizes Almor, and the ruler of Oldred becomes a Prince.
4. The rest of Nyrond south of the Duntide sees the threat from the Pale and sells out to the UKA.
5. The rest of western Nyrond sees the threat from the Pale and doesn't want to sell out to the UKA and goes to the Urnsts in some fashion.
That is the model I use in my 650 CY setting coming soon.
Once divided against itself, Nyrond is easily taken in bits and pieces, by violence, conversion, or selling out.
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The Pale can't do anything while it's embroiled in Tenh and while Nyrond is in one piece. It's vert unlikely they'd consent to an alliance with Ahlissa to take on Nyrond either.
If the Pale takes advantage of the Faithful Flan and another incident occurs (which I cover in my 650 CY setting), they get Tenh almost by default, making annexation of Midmeadow and the Pholtus-leaning inhabitants quite easy.
Ahlissa is constrained by the continuing existance of the NK (which is why Nyrond would be mad to mess with Eastfair).
Nyrond is booooorrrrinnnng. It is Furyondy without an epic enemy (Iuz). It is Veluna and Verbobonc without the dark history of the temple of elemental evil. It is the Duchy of Urnst without the Suel history and pride and the magical weirdness of the Maures or Keoland without the Suel history and pride and the interesting neighbor states.
Seriously, think about it. Furyondy and Veluna have Iuz and the ToEE. Greyhawk has tons of history. Urnst has the Maures. The western states have the giants and the Kettites. Aerdi had Ivid, the Demonic Knights of Doom, etc. The palish are a fantastic lawful state. What role has Nyrond ever played in any Gord novel or in any decent module, seriously? Nothing. Nyrond is an absolute waste of space.
Personally, I'd love to see the Pale and Ahlissa rip off big hunks of Nyrond and a much reduced Nyrond exist only to serve as a border state between the Pale, Ahlissa and the Urnsts as the former two consolidate their gains and the Urnsts subsidize the Nyrondell armies to keep a buffer away from those more militaristic states.
The jackels are hungry for another bloodbath apparently
Even though after the war neither Ahlissa or the Pale are motivated to attack. Socially I can't see Ahlissa and the Pale finding agreement given the religious and historical problems (Pale sees Nyrond as corrupt, how much more the decadent fiend lovers of Aerdi that drove the faithful out?).
Who says Nyrond will be eager to strike a deal, any attack has to be seen as pure opportunism, sure to spawn endless wide spread partisan movements rather than a rush for ahlissian titles by the nobles.
Ahlissa already has contested claims in the north with NK (Naelax lands) and the east with Compact (Medegia), plus the rebuilding and fortifying Idee and half of almor which is more than enough without launching an insane (Ivid) invasion of Nyrond. Remember Xavender's support is based in part that he isn't Ivid if he suggested this many nobles would no doubt rebel with merchant financial backing.
What Crag said. Moreover, the LGG notes that popular support in the Pale for an invasion of Nyrond is waning - which shows that the Palish have some sense.
Nyrond's got nothing and never had an epic enemy? Riiiight. Read Marklands and come back to me on that.
Sam: I don't think Lynwerd would condone the kind of ethnic cleansing or genocide that you're suggesting. That'd be the only way to quell Pholtine rebels in the Pale. Again, I think he'd rather use more subtle means to gain leverage over the Pale - like marching an army to the border, cutting off the food shipments that the Pale depends on and telling them to either fight, starve or behave. Talk softly and use a big stick (of beef jerky).
NK: Taking the NK would cost Nyrond more than it would ever return in revenues. Rebellious nobles, untrustworthy troops, a sullen population and a huge line of fortifications to hold the Dustbridge-Delaric-Winetha line. Again, better to play the two overkings off against each other, and when trouble starts, storm into to the Bone March and secure a defendable border along the Teesar Torrent (as well as the mines, a land border with Ratik and a port on the Solnor).
The Tenhas are famously proud (read arrogant). Assuming they consented to a marriage in the first place, they'd certianly find better things to do than die for Nyrond - like sticking it to the Fists and the forces of Iuz/Free Lords.
The carve up you suggest is not implausible, assuming Lynwerd dies without issue. It does seem an unneccesary waste of a great country and set of NPCs. I don't know where all the Nyrond hate's coming from, but seriously - reread the Marklands and reconsider. The whole thing sounds as though it has no more rationale behind it than let's nuke a country for the heck of it, tbh.
Sam: I don't think Lynwerd would condone the kind of ethnic cleansing or genocide that you're suggesting. That'd be the only way to quell Pholtine rebels in the Pale. Again, I think he'd rather use more subtle means to gain leverage over the Pale - like marching an army to the border, cutting off the food shipments that the Pale depends on and telling them to either fight, starve or behave. Talk softly and use a big stick (of beef jerky).
That could work too. Indeed, that is the way I have Keoland take down the Yeomanry. I just have a lower opinion of the morals of those evil eastern Oeridians.
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The carve up you suggest is not implausible, assuming Lynwerd dies without issue. It does seem an unneccesary waste of a great country and set of NPCs. I don't know where all the Nyrond hate's coming from, but seriously - reread the Marklands and reconsider. The whole thing sounds as though it has no more rationale behind it than let's nuke a country for the heck of it, tbh.
To be quite clear, that is all the motivation to it for me. For or against Nyrond, I would likely look to cut down or recreate the various nations of the Flanaess, and just want to casually eliminate a nation or ten. (Including Tenh.) Good, bad, or indifferent, I just want to get rid of nations, and Nyrond is as fun to destroy as any.
It's always great to see spirited discussion! A few contributions:
I liked Samwise's suggestion that Nyrond would support Tenh once it was able. While I greatly disliked LGH's Pale-annexing-lower-Tenh, upon reflection it makes sense. I think Tenh ends as a separate state, splintering into part of the Bandit Kingdoms and part of Stonehold (eschewing the Day of Dust, Etherthreat, etc.) (If any planar tainting occurs, let's use Shadow, not Ethereal, okay?)
The Pale's northern expansion likely precludes its ability to compel "Lesser Nyrond." One doesn't even need Nyrond to constrict foodstuffs, the Pale's elite army is just too small to expand on two fronts.
Man, so much was said, I'm forgetting what else I wanted to comment on... :(
Well, just to riff:
Innspa and Knurl (to a lesser extent) seem the likely flashspots between Nyrond and the UKA. I was shocked to read that the LGG (or was that GH'98?) gave Innspa to the UKA and think it makes a much better free city (state).
I agree with Paul that neither Nyrond, nor the UKA want to march against each other, at least for this generation. Rather I see North Kingdom and the UKA eventually squaring off and both warily courting Nyrond as a self-interested potential ally (and sponsor of much espionage as Woesinger and Samwise evoked).
I like North Kingdom, so I'd like to see a war of attrition that grinds into a stalemate or pyrrhic victory at best. Perhaps Grenell finally directs the euroz against the UKA (having taken or contained Rinloru)? I like the idea of NK (not Nyrond) becomes reassuming control over the Bone March (and perhaps compelling Ratik to join). (Of course, once Grenell dies, it's highly likely that the UKA must triumph, or at least make significant gains--unless Shalaster dons the iron crown...)
Back to Nyrond, I'd prefer to use it and the UKA as competing kingdoms with a relatively open border but distinctive cultures than have one conquer the other!
I had a thought that Grenell would be helped into his grave, not by Shalaster, but the one Aerdi prince who got royally screwed by The Adventure Begins - Prince Strychan of Dustbridge. He has the advantage of being Naelax and having his back to the wall (if he allies with the south, Xavener will have him killed; if he allies with the north, Grenell is likely to do the same).
Strychan's likely been courting Naelax princes like Hastern and Montand, not to mention any ambitious Hextorites in the NK (since Grenell has the habit of killing off any promising rivals). They all have to realise that Grenell is old and doesn't have a designated heir. He won't name one and won't relinquish the crown, so...for the good of all, a prudent betrayal would save a messy and fatal civil war.
And Strychan has another ace up his sleeve that will not only give him an edge against Grenell, but against Xavener too. I must write that up in an article sometime... :)
You should indeed write-up Strychan's "ace." I like the idea of his attempting to assassinate Grenell and would like it to succeed but think the old Grandfather of Assassins must defeat attempted assassinations with some regularity...
How would Strychan eventually succeed? Perhaps by tricking the distaff death knight to assault the "Overking," as a distraction?
Regarding Shalaster, I like the idea of him becoming a reluctant "Overking," yet the only one powerful enough to maintain North Kingdom's borders against the UKA. However, I think that Shalaster desires the reunification of the Great Kingdom. If given the opportunity, I think he'd strategize to retake Rauxes and become kingmaker for the true new Overking--making the recent dissolution the Second Turmoil of the Crowns, as Taras Montand-Guarhoth once argued and others have now adopted.
This is a short version of a larger piece I am writing. It assumes Grenell diminishes his concerns about Rinloru and Winetha and the wide Naelex lands. And, this is my vision of what would happen with Sewarndt and Grenell. I don't know how The Pale, the Urnst states or Ahlissa would react or respond. This literally gives Grenell free reign in Nyrond.
Prince Sewarndt fled Nyrond after his failed coup in Ready'reat 585 CY and was received in Eastfair by Overking Grenell. With a wary yet curious ear, Grenell listens as Sewarndt shares every military, economic, social and political secret Nyrond had.
During the course of the next eight years Grenell prepares to take his slice of Nyrond. Extra effort is made to entreat the humanoid tribes in Bone March. Spies and Hextorites from Eastfair infiltrate Onyxgate and Bloodcrystal to determine what fell powers they hide. Emissaries from Eastfair enter Spinecastle and flatter Duke Urkar Grasz of Torquann, the death knight who holds secret sway over the haunted and remote castle. Count Dunstan is brought into the North Kingdom's alignment after receiving tangible economic aid and military protection - offers no other nation has made good on. Sewarndt's hubris and malice lie at the center of the planning. The Black Prince infects Grenell with the same dark sense of revenge and loathing that he harbors.
The forces of Grenell assemble during the autumn of 594 CY and spend a tense winter forty miles east of Glandeven and in and around Knurl. A Maginot Line is built from Winetha to Dustbridge.
On the first day of Wealsun, 595 CY, a small force of ogres, orcs and gnolls plow over Glandeven and fight through Ogrebolt Pass. An impatient Duke Boomgren moves his cavlary and footmen to Shukendale. But, they are destroyed as Grenell, General Hastern of Edgefield, the death knight and General Lurgzum of Eastfair pour through South Pass and overwhelm Pelleur Keep. Grenell and Grasz move straight for Rel Mord, sweeping aside all resistance along the way. Lurgzum and Hastern veer south to keep Rel Mord's forces off balance, thin them out, and to threaten Mithat.
In an unthinkable act of betrayal, Younard of Mithat concedes the port city to Sewardnt. The Black Prince appears in Onyxgate, where he and his Hextorian allies have unlocked Szeffrin and Pazrael's dark secrets. Fiends and otherplanar creatures boil out of Alomr and the region is lost to the North Kingdom. Any help from the south must fight through a morass of horiffic monsters.
Lurgzum's Dark Lancers, his elite heavy cavalry, stun the Heironeans of Rel Mord as they turn west to assist in the city's assault. Rel Mord falls to Grenell four months after he launched his attack. North Kingdom holds sway everywhere east of the Duntide River by the end of Ready'reat 595 CY. The fighting comes to a halt for the winter.
King Lynwerd and Xenia are executed by Grenell in Rel Mord. Archold is dragged around eastern Nyrond on a granite chair cut from Eastfair's walls. The elderly and infirm man is so stricken with grief that he dies of a broken heart during Needfest 596 CY.
In Midmeadow, Aspranth throws up his arms in exasperation. He makes supplications to The Pale in early Fireseek 596 CY and Lesser Nyrond became a reality. After the winter of 595/596 CY, reinforcements from the Bone March swamp eastern Nyrond. Then, Lurgzum is allowed to thunder across the Duntide River in Flocktime 596 CY and take Mowbrenn and Hendrenn Halgood. While it took weeks of bloody fighting to take Hendrenn Halgood, Mowbrenn falls without much fighting. Speculations abound, but most point to conspiracy involving the Huldanes.
By the end of 596 CY Grenell controls all of Nyrond except the Gamboge and Celadon forests and the stinking bogs of the Gnatmarsh. Over the next several seasons, naval fights in Relmor Bay occur. Surviving Nyrondese nobles and military leaders that fled west rattle their swords from the Urnst states and Greyhawk. But nothing significant threatens Grenell's hold on the "Aerdy West."
Herzog Sewarndt governs Nyrond with an iron fist. He enriches those who supported him with the booty of those he hated. He sends slaves to the Bone March and North Kingdom. He moves his seat of power to Onyxgate. Rel Mord becomes a military garrison and a horribly frightening prison where the cold steps of Duke Grasz are heard on the darkest nights. General Hastern defiles the Temple of Sol Invictus in Hendrenn Halgood. Hextorians exert their influence on the populace and turn father against son and brother against brother as the Scourge of Battle's clergy divides the Nyrondese and Almorian peoples. Many goodly folk die in the purge over the next several years.
The circle of space buffering the lands of weal has becoming chockingly tight. _________________ Don (Greyson)
Nyrond is booooorrrrinnnng. It is Furyondy without an epic enemy (Iuz). It is Veluna and Verbobonc without the dark history of the temple of elemental evil. It is the Duchy of Urnst without the Suel history and pride and the magical weirdness of the Maures or Keoland without the Suel history and pride and the interesting neighbor states.
Seriously, think about it. Furyondy and Veluna have Iuz and the ToEE. Greyhawk has tons of history. Urnst has the Maures. The western states have the giants and the Kettites. Aerdi had Ivid, the Demonic Knights of Doom, etc. The palish are a fantastic lawful state. What role has Nyrond ever played in any Gord novel or in any decent module, seriously? Nothing. Nyrond is an absolute waste of space.
From a metagame standpoint, this is it in a nutshell. Nyrond was invented as a counter to the GK. When the GK got split in FtA/LGG, Nyrond's metagame reason for existing got severely undercut, IMO.
Even if Ahlissa is the seed of a new GK, what made Nyrond the counter to the GK, House Rax etc., would not play so strongly with Naelax/Ivids gone and Ahlissa calling the shots.
Metagame, Nyrond needs a reason to exist or it is literally taking up space and that much space taken up with no better rationale than that SOMETHING has to go there is, IMO, not good.
As we're speaking metagame-ese, I can't recall who said this but:
"Any game with three players becomes political".
Yes, there are more than three if you lump in the Compact, the Barons, the League etc - but we're talking REAL players here.
But if you think a two-player Aerdi successor state struggle is interesting, then more power to you.
Greyson: I'll admit I'm an unabashed Nyrondophile, but your scenario assumes a lot of genius on the side of the North Kingdom and a lot of incompetance on Nyrond's, while Xavener sits on his hands as his greatest rival doubles his territories (which is, of course, why a three way fight is so much more interesting than one-on-one).
No Myraken? No Oberend? No Young Blackmarr? Remember that Basmajen vanished at Onyxgate, so removing his dead hand from Nyrond's armies.
I'd have thought that Korenflass would be a better Sewedernt-ite turncoat than Younard, and I'm really unsure, given his write up in Marklands, that Sewdernt would settle for being a mere Hertzog. His ambition would be to rule, rather than serve, which is bad news for either him or Grenell.
MTG: I'll write up my idea for a Very Aerdi Coup soon, if I have the time (!).
Problems:
1) Yet again; if we simply assume UKA & Compact doesn't notice a massive invasion of Nyrond (Sun was in their eyes I guess).
2) How about the NK own eastern and southern nobles, coastal nobles are fearful of Compact and the southern Naelax nobles aligned and independent are feaful of Compact & UKA the last thing they want is their armies marched into Nyrond.
3) Shalaster and his troops hate orcs his stated desire is to gather support to cleanse the NK of them (genocide) til then he is trying to hold the line before he "allies" with them for an attack on Nyrond he would rather march on Eastfair to end this insanity especially since he is friendly with several coastal nobles. It is only that the NK nobles are under threat and geographically divided that no one yet has marched on eastfair already.
4) Bone March humanoids desire ratik and Knurl, Dunstan despises Grenell, blames him for bone march fall and any alliance would doom the new "northern alliance" Knurl, Ratik and Frost Barbarians.
5) Sewarndt especially after his failure has almost no support within Nyrond not exactly the man to rally support among the new young bloods of Nyrond or the Heironeous clergy (sleeping too I guess).
6) God not another fiend invasion, would the hellish lords be receptive after Flight of fiends, Grenell feels they corrupt the faith of Hextor, he has an anti-fiend stance.
I just see to much forcing of the "round peg into the square hole" for the scenario to be accepted.
If Nyrond is going to make it whole into the next iteration of GH, I think it needs a signature feature. Not just some adventure or campaign hooks that are cool, but something that says - "I am Nyrond, not to be confused with anywhere else." Hopefully, that signature will not be - "I am Nyrond, I've fallen and I can't get up." If Nyrond cannot be otherwise distinguished, I think it needs to head for the scrap heap of history, although the Ottoman Empire, and the Byzantine (in one shape or form) Empire held on long past their prime as "sick men" of Europe. I don't think the Flanaess needs a 500 ton "sick man" in Nyrond, however.
YMMV.
PS - I don't dislike Nyrond, I just find it's present state rather useless and uninspiring. Old Nyrond was rather cool as the anti-GK. _________________ GVD
GVD - I'm not sure I'm down with the whole argument from utility you're making, so my milage does vary there (and I'm a big fan of the Byzantines too!). Why have three Uleks when the one with the dwarves in is the only interesting one? And come to think of the the County Urnst doesn't do much either...and, Tusmit and the Schnai, what have you done for me lately?
A country doesn't just go away because some folk don't find it interesting.
It does seem that people don't appreciate Nyrond's strengths and what makes it different though. Nyrond is about all that's good in the Great Kingdom. Now before you say, but the Iron League or Furyondy are that - no they aren't. Neither of them have any chance of actually recapturing the dream that was Aerdy, the goodness and wisdom that characterised most of the early Overkings, the legacy of Nasran Cranden. Furyondy is a western realm whose kings, descended from pretty lords, turned their back on Aerdy long ago. The League are but loyal retainers in search of a true lord to lead them.
The motto of the Rax was "In Splendour Our Reign". The motto of Rax-Nyrond is "In Justice Our Right." Lynwerd embodies that now, because, he is in a very real way, the hope not only of Nyrond, but the entire east. Lynwerd has the ability and the wisdom to make Nyrond strong again. It's not a question of "I've fallen and can't get up". It's "I've fallen and I must get up or the Golden Sun will set on Aerdy and the east forever". Should Nyrond fall, the Aerdi will fall into darkness, ruled by undead princes, stonehearted tyrants and smiling sociopaths.
But Nyrond also has a flip side - other baggage of empire. Its nobles, though generally good men, are prone to hubris, and that's what brought them low in the Wars. And along with hubris, some harken back to the old decadence of the Great Kingdom - Sewedernt and others. There's always a struggle between what is best in Nyrond and what is worst. It's a flawed hero, the shield of the east, the last true ray of the Sun.
The two brothers represent the best and worst of their realm. If Nyrond falls, it will not be because it is militarily weak or poor in manpower or resources, it'll be because the better angels of Nyrond's nature will have been defeated.
If you want a signature - it's the struggle for the crown of a kingdom, the soul of a nation and the destiny of a people.
If you want a signature - it's the struggle for the crown of a kingdom, the soul of a nation and the destiny of a people.
I substantially agree with everything you have said about Nyrond. I do not disagree.
Unfortunately, a signature cannot be diffuse if it is to be immediately recognizable. Sure, more nuanced or subtle or complex raison d 'etre would be nice but any signature that cannot be immediately grasped in terms of both its conception and how that leads to cool adventure possibilities is not much of a signature.
As txwad put it so well, saying, in counterpoint, of Nyrond - "It is Furyondy without an epic enemy (Iuz). It is Veluna and Verbobonc without the dark history of the temple of elemental evil. It is the Duchy of Urnst without the Suel history and pride and the magical weirdness of the Maures or Keoland without the Suel history and pride and the interesting neighbor states.
Seriously, think about it. Furyondy and Veluna have Iuz and the ToEE. Greyhawk has tons of history. Urnst has the Maures. The western states have the giants and the Kettites. Aerdi had Ivid, the Demonic Knights of Doom, etc. The palish are a fantastic lawful state. What role has Nyrond ever played in any Gord novel or in any decent module, seriously? Nothing. Nyrond is an absolute waste of space."
IMO, Nyrond needs an epic villain/opponent of some sort to personify the struggle you identify. Or some unique cultural expression. Or some adventure series, like GDQ, ToEE, Slavers, ToH etc. to say - THIS is NYROND! Or its possibility.
The old saying "good is boring" is not true necessarily but it can be true if "we're good!" is all that is said.
Do you see where I am am going here?
Again, this is purely metagame thinking. Your analogy to C Urnst and the Schnaii is inaposite as Nyrond is both HUGE and central in the Flanaess and thus cannot afford not to matter. It cannot be a cypher or lackluster etc. It is simply too big and too strategically positioned in the middle of the Flanaess. _________________ GVD
You know, GVD, I really have no idea what you are on about here. You seem to have a very strange and limited idea of what constitutes "suitable for adventure". One I just fail to grasp every time you try to apply it. In your critiques of teh Sheldomar, discussions of the wild coast, and now this.
I do no think that every nation needs some one sentence synopsis of its purpose for existance, nor do I think any of the places you have made this argument about are lackluster or unsuitable for adventure.
You know, GVD, I really have no idea what you are on about here. You seem to have a very strange and limited idea of what constitutes "suitable for adventure". One I just fail to grasp every time you try to apply it. In your critiques of teh Sheldomar, discussions of the wild coast, and now this.
I do no think that every nation needs some one sentence synopsis of its purpose for existance, nor do I think any of the places you have made this argument about are lackluster or unsuitable for adventure.
Anyway, I just do not get it.
I kind of got that impression. As what I've expressed previously doesn't work for you, I won't express it again or rephrase. I'll try this.
I compartmentalize how I look at WoG.
In one compartment is GH as a setting in which I campaign and in which others campaign and in which I have my GH/DM/Player hat.
In the other compartment is GH as a setting in which I do not campaign but which I (pretend) own and which I must develop so that enough people will buy it so that it will be profitable.
The two compartments are entirely, even schizophrenically separate.
They share, however, my high regard for the setting. Which can make things confusing. As can my switching back and forth, which I try to signal but which not always successfully, obviously.
I'm guessing you either don't have such "compartments" or that they substantially overlap. Either way, I think that may be a souurce of the difficulty.
If it helps, just regard me like a crazy uncle who the family keeps locked away in the attic but who somehow manages to keep letting himself out. I'm equally harmless. Well, except for those sexy teens who on a dare sneak into the house . . . oh, wait; I've said too much. _________________ GVD
GVD, I generally like your ideas, however your one sentence motto is just silly.
Reading your last post, it struck me, nations are only interesting for you if their is a white hat/black hat scenario, wasn't this approach decried in FtA?
Where is the grey in your world?
You admit Nyrond was interesting standing up to Ivid, why does it become dull standing up to NK & UKA both are evil but in a less deranged way, more grey then the Nyrond/Ivid standoff, should produce a subtler style of play.
Nyrond still plays a vital role as the "bulwark of the east" few of the succesionist aerdi states would have had the nerve if not for Nyrond's example and support.
If Furyondy is a shiny example for the west, Nyrond is its eastern counterpart, an eastern camelot full of castles and proud (pehaps too proud) knights.
To tie in Woesinger idea and Cebrion artictle on the Knight Protectors: Both groups (Nyrond & KP) flaw is pride, Nyrond royal line is for all purposes the remains of the Rax lineage, which KP ultimately want to restore however the KP see Nyrond as arch-traitors that caused the break-up and encouraged further defections. Fleeing instead of remaining to fight for the ideals of the GK.
While Nyrond sees themselves as heroic stalward aerdi nobles who made a tough decision to preserve the best of the ideals of the GK.
Can the centuries of distrust and mutual hostility ever be reconciled for the good of the aerdi people, if so it will take some deep soul seaching and acceptance of the failure of cherished myths on both sides before it is even considered, not easy for either side so proud of their heritage and the cultural baggage attached.
GVD, I generally like your ideas, however your one sentence motto is just silly.
It does not have to be a single sentence, necessarily. It does have to be something that clearly and immediately distinguishes Nyrond. Read txwad's post again with respect to how he sums up the other nations of the Flanaess.
Crag wrote:
Reading your last post, it struck me, nations are only interesting for you if their is a white hat/black hat scenario, wasn't this approach decried in FtA?
Where is the grey in your world?
A signature is clear and distinguishing. That does not mean black and white. Moreover, clear and distinguishing does not mean it can't be complex. A signature is simply a shorthand description that can be elaborated upon.
Crag wrote:
You admit Nyrond was interesting standing up to Ivid, why does it become dull standing up to NK & UKA both are evil but in a less deranged way, more grey then the Nyrond/Ivid standoff, should produce a subtler style of play.
Its not about boring so much as it is about metagame function. Nyrond as written isn't standing up to anyone; it can barely stand. Even so, the NK and UKA are balanced against each other obviating the metagame need for Nyrond to stand up to either. While there could be a three cornered (or four cornered etc.) relationship, that was not developed in either FtA or LGG. In both, Nyrond has substantially fallen and now does not really have a role vis a vis the NK and UKA, which as noted are between themselves balanced in the metagame.
Crag wrote:
Nyrond still plays a vital role as the "bulwark of the east" few of the succesionist aerdi states would have had the nerve if not for Nyrond's example and support.
I just don't see that presently. Allowing that to be true at the time of FtA, it is no longer true circa LGG. The successor states exist. Nyrond remains chiefly as it was circa FtA - beaten down and disorganized.
To be fair to the LGG authors, it would have made no sense in the brief time from FtA to LGG to see Nyrond completely recover from its fate in FtA. However, the LGG might have found for Nyrond a new role and might have more concretely pointed the way toward Nyrond's future. It did neither. To quote one of my favorite lines from the Simpson's, "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas." The LGG dropped the ball on Nyrond, IMO. It took it for granted as a big, beige nation - "Oh, yeah. Nyrond. Its still right there." They could or would find nothing else to say. A failure of imagination.
Crag wrote:
If Furyondy is a shiny example for the west, Nyrond is its eastern counterpart, an eastern camelot full of castles and proud (pehaps too proud) knights.
Pre-FtA, I believe this was true. Circa LGG, it is no longer true. Nyrond is missing its great enemy - the metagame reason it existed - in the GK. A similar relationship between Nyrond and the UKA or NK has not been developed and in fact, the NK and UKA are more concerned with their interaction than any interaction with Nyrond, circa LGG. Nyrond is then left to drift in a semi-trashed state left over from FtA. Nyrond needs a metagame reason to exist.
Crag wrote:
To tie in Woesinger idea and Cebrion artictle on the Knight Protectors: Both groups (Nyrond & KP) flaw is pride, Nyrond royal line is for all purposes the remains of the Rax lineage, which KP ultimately want to restore however the KP see Nyrond as arch-traitors that caused the break-up and encouraged further defections. Fleeing instead of remaining to fight for the ideals of the GK.
While Nyrond sees themselves as heroic stalward aerdi nobles who made a tough decision to preserve the best of the ideals of the GK.
Can the centuries of distrust and mutual hostility ever be reconciled for the good of the aerdi people, if so it will take some deep soul seaching and acceptance of the failure of cherished myths on both sides before it is even considered, not easy for either side so proud of their heritage and the cultural baggage attached.
Nothing wrong with any of this and it could be interesting. However, metagame, it is too diffuse to define Nyrond. Unless you are proposing a reconquista of Aerdi by Nyrond, in which case that would need to be more clearly defined (not that I am suggesting such a reconquista). A reconquista could be a signature of Nyrond but it could be something else entirely as well.
Metagame signature features are big and bold in primary colors but they are not the sum or definition of a campaign feature; they are simply a shorthand that will then be more fully developed. The above quote looks toward that more full development but without first saying what the signature feature is. The relationship between the signature and the fuller development is mutually reinforcing - neither works without the other from a metagame standpoint. We can all do what we want in our home games, of course, but that is not what I am talking about here.
Again, read txwad's post briefly identifying the signature features of other states in the Flanaess. He gets Nyrond's problem. Nyrond used to be "the counterweight to the GK." That was its signature. It is not any longer and in its place we have . . . nothing. That, IMO, needs to be fixed in any future iteration of WoG. _________________ GVD
GVD: I don't accept your assertion that a country needs a metagame reason to exist. The GK is gone, so Nyrond needs to disappear too? That makes NO sense.
Secondly, Nyrond does have a role in a three-way power struggle between the major Aerdi states in the eastern Flanaess, whether the LGG explictly says it or not. If you can't see it, fine - but it's there. (It was there in FtA too - holding back the the hordes of Bone March and the madness of Almor until tAB squandered Szeffrin.) I also find your assertion that the existance of the successor states somehow invalidates Nyrond's role in opposing them bizzare. Would Nyrond have a role as a bulwark if they didn't exist?
Thirdly, I don't accept that Nyrond's been left drift listlessly since FtA. The Adventure Begins and the LGG moved things on by putting Lynwerd on the throne and the realm on a road to recovery. How concrete a pointer to the future do you want?
And what did you expect the LGG to do with Nyrond? On one hand you say it's unrealistic for the country to have miraculously recovered in 6 years; on the other, you want Nyrond to do new, shiney things to amuse you.
Fourthly, where was this sudden new raison d'etre going to come from? It's not like all the nobles and commoners of Nyrond went - "Jeez, guys, the LGG is coming out, we better find something new and cool to do or we're going to get carved up and written out".
Sorting the kingdom out after a devestating war isn't enough? How about staving off a civil war between the king and his evil brother? Or rebuilding strength to meet the challenge of the new and increasingly powerful neighbours? Perhaps when they sort out all that - the Nyrondese might get around to sending out some exploratory ships to suss out the southern seas.
Finally, signatures...what's wrong with the Wounded Giant Rising From the Ashes? Not flashy enough? Been done in FtA? (Oh what, like the rest of the Flanaess has been radically transformed since FtA?)
Nyrond has the UKA (kinda evil), NK (LE), the Bone March (CE), the Pale and the Valourous League of Blindness (LN) and the Celedon Foresters (CG!) as enemies. Nyrond has tons of history (Battle of a Fortnight's Length; the rebellion of 356 CY, the Council of Rel Mord, the War of the Golden League anyone?). Nyrond has the Nehron and the Aerdi.
Or to turn it the other way, or Keoland and Urnst are Nyrond without the Oerid history, imperial hubris and the magical might of the Oerid battlemages or the magical weirdness of Starhaunt.
I'm not buying this Nyrond is boring schtick for a minute.
Excellent posts one and all. I wholeheartedly agree that Nyrond shouldn't have to have a "Metagame" reason to exist, and that the kingdom is rife with adventure possibilities.
First off, there's Lynwerd's brother Sewardnt. These two are the two sides of the Nyrondal coin-one hard-working, devoted and loyal, and able to accept demihumans and foreigners as equal partners; the other overweening, domineering, disdainful of women and elves, openly favoring human and dwarven males and not ashamed of using Nyrond's power as a stick to force other countries to sit up and bark. There's no need for the Scarlet Brotherhood to be involved (does there ALWAYS have to be an evil organization involved?), and can open the way for a fantastic Wars-of-the-Roses type storyline.
Second, Nyrond has the baggage of history to deal with. How will the nomadic Flan react to seeing the country that took over most of the land that was once theres now enfeebled and weak? Will they propose alliances against common enemies like hostile humanoids, demihuman holds, the Aerdi, the Pale, or the Duchy of Urnst? Launch a crusade to take back the territory? Just ignore it?
And what about the elves? Nyrond's long and rather ugly history with the elves of the Celadon Forest leaves the latter unsympathetic with Nyrond's plight, and more likely to support the Duchy of Urnst in any conflicts that erupt. Will Nyrond be pushed more into alliance with the dwarves and gnomes of the Flinty Hills, who have chilly relations with the elves and Flan at the best of times?
Finally, there are many bitter memories of the Nyrondal occupation of the Urnst lands, that the younger generations of humans are reminded of by the elves that the Urnstmen deal with and have been so allied with. The Duchy might not invade Nyrond, but its newfound economic strength and Nyrond's debts leave Leukish in a powerful position to make Nyrond sit up and bark! Call in the debts with some of Nyrond's most valuable holdings, lest the country default on the loans and have its economy fall apart all over again.
How about the Iron League states of Irongate and Onnwal? Do they just leave Nyrond to rot, glad to be free of its overweening influence? Or do they go in to help it, even though Nyrond made a play and invasion for them during its imperial phase? Do the ghosts of the past influence the decisions of the present?
To sum up, Nyrond's long history of rough diplomacy with its neighbors has produced deep resentments and bitterness-how these neighbors will exploit Nyrond's weakened state is anyone's guess. Greyhawk and Iuz or the Horned Society might have something to say about it too-they might not appreciate having such a powerful and potentially valuable ally be exploited. There's a witches' brew of political intrigue to be exploited here...
If politics isn't your thing, then consider this-Nyrond is in a powerful position on the trade routes, has lots of valuable resources and connections that are immensely profitable when not disrupted by war. How many evil wizards, orc warlords, independent demons (Tuerny the Merciless, anyone?) and other assorted evil-doers might make a play for Nyrond? Classic adventurer business. GVD and I, among others, have noted that Greyhawk is in desperate need of new villains. What better place to introduce them than Nyrond?
Nyrond is on the road to recovery, and Lynwerd is a brilliant man who will no doubt restore his country's prestige given time, but bandits still prey upon the roadways; humanoids, Urnstmen, Palish, Aerdi, independent Flan and Onnwalians all plague the country with their raids; Nyrond's navy is enfeebled and weak, even more so than it was before the Wars; Nyrond's armies are overstretched and weakened, with the very real possibility of falling into a state as disgraceful as that of Keoland's infamously cowardly and pathetic army...
Nyrond is boring? Not a chance. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
First of all, all of us are metagaming as we speak, we aren't actually running those countries in a competitive internet campaign. by definition, any and all comments by any and all parties are metagamey. With that being said, is there a continuity issue, yes of course. I'm not Carl Sargent even if I had the power, I wouldnt wave my hand and make all kinds of silly things happen (e.g. scarlet brotherhood's actions)
Second, there is the usual division on these boards between those like me who think core greyhawk = gygax, rob kuntz, len lakofka, the old UK team that did saltmarsh, perhaps erik mona (savage tide looks very interesting). From this perspective, provisional greyhawk, of value only insofar as it has an interesting adventure (maybe sean reynolds in return to TOH or wolfgang bauer's incredible Kingdom of the Ghouls), or is needed to maintain continuity is sargent, roger moore, these boards, etc.
Following this train of thought, "core canon" produced by gygax, etc tells us what verbobonc is like and to an extent veluna and furyondy and Iuz, it tells us what the mtn states of the hellfurnaces are like (or at least their enemies), it gives us snippets about the sea of dust, it gives us a ton of info on greyhawk city and the wild coast. I do not need to review the relative sales of gygax's masterpiece modules (still in pdf print 30 years later) and gord books (about to be reprinted twenty years later) vis-a-vis the greyhawk wars nonsense -- gee I wonder why wizards isnt coming out with expedition to puppets or expedition to that ulek module? This should be plenty of indication that people understand that gygax has the core principles of greyhawk (militant neutrality, etc) not sargent
Does this mean that I have to admit that the greyhawk wars occurred to continue to play? Yes sorta, but it is a grudging admission and every fiber of my being that doesnt recognize a great idea tries to subvert the current world more in line with the "core canon" while maintaining a shred of continuity. I am not so conservative that the Gygaxian canon is frozen in time, can someone like Erik Mona and maybe James Jacobs, who knows his Greyhawk lore, go beyond the boundaries and extend our knowledge of Greyhawk via Savage Tide -- yes of course but hes organically building on or tweaking core canon, he isnt rewriting it wholesale -- in fact hes using core canon from mystara to augment core canon for greyhawk. Thus from this perspective, do I have to pay much heed to sargent's wishes for nyrond (other than a shred of continuity), no! Thus, I could give a rat's a__ about Lynwerd whatever except again for that shred of consistency.
The core canon says almost nothing about Nyrond (evidently even gygax didnt find it very interesting -- his one short story set there makes a few nobles mentioned out to be fops or buffoons) except that its main purpose was always as a counter to the great kingdom. If the Great Kingdom is no more, then who gives a cr_p about nyrond! That doesnt mean that I want it to go away tomorrow, it just means I want someone who knows their core lore (like mona) or someone with a great idea (eg Bauer and the Ghouls) to do the rewriting or else expand one of the more interesting neighbors.
Can't we spend more time, give more geographic space to a decadent expansionist Ahlissa? Or how about the hilariously lawful Pale -- the idea of a large medieval kingdom like the pale/nyrond under permanent martial law and trying to prosletyize in the Ursnt states and extremely hostile towards a decadent Ahlissa is terrific imho. My issue is how much of this worthless lump of nyrond can we legitimately carve out into those interesting realms is the core issue?
I'm not Carl Sargent even if I had the power, I wouldnt wave my hand and make all kinds of silly things happen (e.g. scarlet brotherhood's actions)
The Greyhawk Wars events was David "Zeb" Cook. Sargent had nothing to do with it; he only attempted to continue (resurrect?) the setting from that point in From the Ashes.
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(maybe sean reynolds in return to TOH
Return to the Tomb of Horrors was Bruce Cordell.
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I do not need to review the relative sales of gygax's masterpiece modules (still in pdf print 30 years later)
GVD: I don't accept your assertion that a country needs a metagame reason to exist. The GK is gone, so Nyrond needs to disappear too? That makes NO sense. . . .
I'm not buying this Nyrond is boring schtick for a minute.
Not suggesting Nyrond disappear. Not suggesting it is boring. Not making my point very well.
I really don't like using this analogy as it is very easily misconstrued, misunderstood or mistaken, but maybe it will break the logjam.
Every good adventure needs a good hook, something to draw in the audience, to get their attention and to get them interested in looking further at what is being offered. Such a hook is most often able to be very briefly summarized. I hope this is commonly understood.
All I'm saying is that Nyrond needs its hook, too. And that such hook needs to be able to be briefly summarized.
I don't see such a hook presently. And without such a hook, I think Nyrond's potential (which you have ably identified) goes begging by all but the already sold on Nyrond. _________________ GVD
Following this train of thought, "core canon" produced by gygax, etc tells us what verbobonc is like and to an extent veluna and furyondy and Iuz, it tells us what the mtn states of the hellfurnaces are like (or at least their enemies), it gives us snippets about the sea of dust, it gives us a ton of info on greyhawk city and the wild coast.
I'm going to agree with the above and recast it as - the Folio/83 Boxed Set gave use the relatively clear sense of each region and the role it plays in the setting - the hooks for each region/state etc.
Later, some of these hooks have become inapplicable or have become less clear or more diffuse.
In the later cases, I suggest that either 1) the old hooks need to be revalidated, 2) new hooks need to be articulated or 3) some greater or lesser redesign needs to take place to fascilitate hooks. You choose.
For those who might see no need for or utility in hooks, I am left speechless. Figuratively speaking. _________________ GVD
Hmm...well then we'll have to do some work on Nyrond then to make it exciting again!
Not really.
As I said, from my POV, Nyrond can be as exciting as you want it to be. Without any real effort, Nyrond still exists as the LG alternative to the LE NK or UKA. (Note: I just reread Ivid the Undying. Xavener is called a psychopath in that. If he starts really showing that, just how bad will the UKA become?) Even if you don't like the 5 minute Imperial Nyrond I presented, take 10 more minutes and make a better one, and you should have more than enough excitement for 10 campaigns. (I've got more than that lurking in the evil depths of my mind from my Sheldomar development, and that's just historical!)
That's why I don't bother with metagaming justifications for keeping or getting rid of Nyrond. It is purely a personal preference that I don't need or have to justify beyond that.
But if you want to make it more interesting, post it over in the heretic's forum!
Every good adventure needs a good hook, something to draw in the audience, to get their attention and to get them interested in looking further at what is being offered. Such a hook is most often able to be very briefly summarized. I hope this is commonly understood.
All I'm saying is that Nyrond needs its hook, too. And that such hook needs to be able to be briefly summarized.
I don't see such a hook presently. And without such a hook, I think Nyrond's potential (which you have ably identified) goes begging by all but the already sold on Nyrond.
Four words:
Wars of the Roses.
Players can fight for either prince, engage in missions and diplomacy on their behalf, fight to keep the kingdom from falling apart during any conflict, mend the social and political wounds that result, fend off assorted villains who try and make Nyrond their personal domain, go on treasure expeditions to finance the rebuilding of the kingdom and to bolster the image of their patron in the eyes of the people, fight off Urnst, the Pale, Greyhawk, Ahlissa, Onnwal, Irongate, or anyone else who might be interested in carving up the kingdom for themselves.
And there's no need for the Scarlet Sign to be involved with Sewardnt. He's enough of a villain to stand on his own. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
A War of the Roses plot is interesting - and yes, I agree, you don't need the SB behind Sewedernt. That said, I always like to have as many factions as possible added to the mix. Sewedernt would not be an SB puppet - he'd be trying to use them to further his ambitions with the full intent of purging them as soon as was expedient (and gain some public kudos for doing so).
The trick would be fighting the other side - while keeping external wolves from the door and holding the realm together (and then reclaiming any lands lost during the bloodletting).
As an aside - Onnwal and Irongate have no cause to quarrel with Nyrond. Nyrond supported them during the Rebellion of 447 CY and since (notably the War of the Golden League and the Eastern Pact during the Greyhawk Wars). Nyrond also gave sanctuary to Jian Destron and many Onnwalon exiles in Nessermouth. They need a strong Nyrond to help them fend off Ahlissa's embrace.
Equally, given Greyhawk and the Urnsts spent a lot of money propping Nyrond up during and after the Wars, I doubt they'd try to tip it over. They'd be backing the side they thought would serve them best (probably Lynwerd, though Sewedernt might try a charm offensive).
It's the Pale, the Bandits (who might try to grab some of the far north-west near Bestian's Towers), the Bone March, NK and Ahlissa that Nyrond needs to worry about in case of civil strife.
First of all, the puppets and marklands pdfs may be available (Ive never seen it) but I get paizo's top downloads list weekly. Against the Giants, Toee, etc. are ALWAYS in the top ten for every week for at least a year. Ive never seen marklands or puppets in such a list. It is a remarkable statement to me that the market for WoG, Toee, etc is so strong 30 years after publication. That is the true test of what should be canon. Its like comparing RA Salvatore vs. Howard and Tolkein. Which one do you think will still be sold in another 30 years?
I stand corrected on the sargent vs. zeb cook point and cordell vs. sean reynolds on return. However, my point is still intact, with respect to the wars and the marklands neither sargent nor cook tried an "organic" outgrowth of gygaxian material -- I cant tell the difference between sargent's and cook's writing and setting outlook -- neither one understood greyhawk lore and both had a ridiculous sense of strategy (consider the scarlet brotherhood's actions in the greyhawk wars, too stupid for words).
An example of organic outgrowth is mona's efforts efforts with savage tide and kyuss and even his abyss book. He clearly knows his gygaxian lore, he is a solid writer, and he is taking the setting forward without betraying the past. Ive argued that bauer did the same with kingdom of the ghouls (though not technically in Greyhawk), you could argue that the Living Greyhawk Journal did a good issue on Zeif on the fringe of the Flanaess and a good issue on the Silent Tower and some of the posters at Dragonsfoot are working with Lakofka to do the same with Lendore Isle. Recognizing and respecting your roots does not being viewing a setting as being static.
So why this preamble in a thread on Nyrond? Well, as I mentioned before, Gygax and the other canon guys wrote almost nothing about Nyrond. No great heroes or villains came from Nyrond, no real Gygaxian history played out in Nyrond. Literally, its only purpose was as generic good kingdom to fend off the much more interesting and evil-ruled Great Kingdom. As I joked before, I think Gygax and Kuntz needed something to offset Aerdy, but then after they created a generic good feudal kingdom, they decided that Furyondy and its enemies were much more interesting -- Nyrond was 'boring' perhaps -- thus they never did anything with it -- Nyrond is the red-haired stepchild of the Flanaess. Also, Ive read literally thousands of posts by Kuntz and Gygax over the years and they never sent their characters to Nyrond -- gee I wonder why they went to the Wild Coast and Blackmoor instead! Thus, we are literally left with a blank core canon slate in Nyrond that some dramatically lesser talent with little appreciation of core canon has tried to fill (The Marklands). This is why Nyrond feels like a very thin gruel to some of us I'll wager.
Please note Im not saying that Nyrond cant be MADE interesting by a clever dm or writer. Im just saying it isnt right now and even worse it is really functionless without Aerdy. Thus, although the War of Roses COULD work as a setting idea in the right hands, given so many alternative venues, Nyrond seems like the least interesting place in the Flanaess to me, and since we don't have any deeply resonating gygaxian material to work with in Nyrond, unless I see a very talented writer (mona etc) take up Nyrond and spin something notable out of whole cloth, I doubt that the nyrond rehab project is worth the effort.
On the other hand, if you want a snippet to work from, Gygax had a post a while back where he said that in his original conception, he had the Brotherhood kidnap Prince Thrommel on BEHALF OF NYROND. Now, that was a WTF moment. What could THAT Nyrond (or its rulers) have been like? Maybe, there was some sort of a dynastic concern, as often happened in Medieval Europe, where Thrommel, perhaps by virtue of his father's marriage to a princess of Nyrond, had a legitimate claim to the throne of Nyrond as well! Having a Gygaxian Nyrond that was mostly good and chivalric, hated Aerdy but perhaps had numerous legitimate claimants to the throne, including nobility in say Furyondy and Urnst could be really interesting for a campaign -- a War of the Roses with international dimensions. Instead, of course we get the Marklands, From the Ashes, with a pop-up, I'm good prince and a pop-up, Im evil prince, and oh our kingdom is soooo tired. [/b]
I could start off another tiresome version war here, but we've seen enough of those - so suffice it to say - I respectfully disagree with your opinions on Carl Sargent, what he did with Nyrond in Marklands and whether or not GH begins and ends with what the Great Old Ones wrote and did. I will, however, say that there's a world of difference in quality between Puppets and Marklands.
personal opinions vary and i value some less popular items more than the masses on occasion. however, the facts with respect to the community at large remain clear as day. troll lords reissues gygax gord books check. toee and queen of spiders are top downloads at paizo (not marklands) every damned week. I cant get an early 1980s wog setting book at a reasonable price because my gaming store cant keep it in stock in the used bin.
you may like ra salvatore as well but 70 years later, new pure robert e howard books are coming out and selling well, 50-70 years later, lord of the rings is a top grossing movie and the books sell crazy.
the point is that there is ample evidence that sargent, zeb cook etc are regarded as the "sideshow bob" of greyhawk in the interim between gygaxhawk and what might become monahawk
for objective evidence of monahawk's appeal lets look at the sales for age of worms and savage tide (i predict the adventure path for savage tide will be the most successful ever)
Can you provide an interesting option for Nyond besides it's doomed because Gygax hung out in the wild coast and west more?
Perhaps Nyrond as a settled powerful lawful kingdom just didn't have the locales of monster/humanoid dungeon adventures so popular in Gygax's day.
Whatever the reason I doubt their is massive support to go back in the Way Back Machine and erase everything not Gygax especially since Mona as the best source for new material accepts "Markland Nyrond".
you may like ra salvatore as well but 70 years later, new pure robert e howard books are coming out and selling well, 50-70 years later, lord of the rings is a top grossing movie and the books sell crazy.
And?
All that speaks to is the fanboy factor and age. Neither of those determine quality. People love Herbert's Dune and it continues to sell. I find it to be Grade D tripe.
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the point is that there is ample evidence that sargent, zeb cook etc are regarded as the "sideshow bob" of greyhawk in the interim between gygaxhawk and what might become monahawk
There is even more evidence that most people who regard it that way have never even read FtA, and don't have a clue what they are talking about when they start spouting off about it.
Tolkien has been critically panned by Moorcock. Should I take that to mean that the LotR is nothing but fanboy hype?
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for objective evidence of monahawk's appeal lets look at the sales for age of worms and savage tide (i predict the adventure path for savage tide will be the most successful ever)
How about we look at the wonderful condemnations of the LGG from hardcore EGG fans on certain forums? That is some pretty hefty objective evidence of some attitudes towards anything after the 83 set.
As for citing the APs as "Monahawk" (ignoring the Weininghawk and <yick> Holianhawk elements of the LGG for the moment), the GH in them hardly touches on the overall development of the setting. Now I do expect Savage Tide to do well, but I don't think that will reflect on GH directly, as the GH elements will be hidden as they were in AoW so that only actually setting fans will recognize them.
The trick would be fighting the other side - while keeping external wolves from the door and holding the realm together (and then reclaiming any lands lost during the bloodletting).
As an aside - Onnwal and Irongate have no cause to quarrel with Nyrond. Nyrond supported them during the Rebellion of 447 CY and since (notably the War of the Golden League and the Eastern Pact during the Greyhawk Wars). Nyrond also gave sanctuary to Jian Destron and many Onnwalon exiles in Nessermouth. They need a strong Nyrond to help them fend off Ahlissa's embrace.
Equally, given Greyhawk and the Urnsts spent a lot of money propping Nyrond up during and after the Wars, I doubt they'd try to tip it over. They'd be backing the side they thought would serve them best (probably Lynwerd, though Sewedernt might try a charm offensive).
It's the Pale, the Bandits (who might try to grab some of the far north-west near Bestian's Towers), the Bone March, NK and Ahlissa that Nyrond needs to worry about in case of civil strife.
Maybe, maybe not. I'm just trying to splatter up the colors a bit, to show that "good" countries can be just as greedy and opportunistic as evil countries. Realpolitik tends to trump alignment in these sorts of matters.
Old memories and grudges die hard-just look at our real world. Who's to say that Nyrond's resources and trade connections couldn't be tempting for Greyhawk, Onnwal, Irongate or the Duchy of Urnst? All of these states have, to my mind, suffered at the hands of Nyrond's heavy-handed diplomacy, which could be expected from a mighty kingdom who's the dominant power in the region.
Sometimes, emotions trump reason in diplomacy, as in anything. Bleeding Nyrond and taking its resources for yourself might not be the smartest idea if the Bandits, Pale, Ahlissa, Northern Aerdy, or any number of humanoids, evil wizards and other villains come calling. However, the desire for payback is just too strong, and would be applauded in many circles, such as Duke Karll's Honorable Chamber, or among those lords of Irongate who fear a too-powerful Nyrond just as much as they do a too-powerful Ahlissa. Better to play the two rivals off each other, and build up your own strength at their expense, than to get too closely tied to one or the other. Remember, Nyrond was not part of the Iron League, and was only allied to it out of necessity. With Nyrond and Ahlissa both weakened from the Wars, and Irongate surviving in fair shape by comparison, there's no need to be too attached to Nyrond.
In Onnwal's case, it may be motivated by a desire to avoid being too dominated by Nyrond, as many citizens feared happened during the Wars. IRL, since Canada was drawn into the U.S. orbit during the Cold War, many have feared that Canadian sovereignty is being compromised by the big power next door. Samething with Onnwal-if Nyrond is weakened, it might be in Onnwal's interest to make sure Nyrond doesn't become the behemoth it was before the Wars. And if Onnwal can score some of Nyrond's resources and commercial wealth, rebuilding its own forces in the process, so much the better.
Greyhawk and the Duchy of Urnst wouldn't simply tip Nyrond over-more likely, Urnst would slowly bleed it white, leaving Nyrond up to absorb the brunt of any Aerdi or Pale assault. Buying up resources, cutting into its commercial trade, with Nyrond too weak to resist without defaulting on its loans, building up its power. When there's an invasion, the enfeebled Nyrond can be chewed up, softening up the enemy while Urnst prepares for the assault. After Nyrond has been reduced to mulch, Urnst and Ahlissa/the Pale/Northern Aerdy can partition Nyrond up among themselves.
This may not seem like the brightest plan to some, but again ideology and passion, inflamed by national rivalry, memories of Nyrondal aggression both recent and ancient, and the experiences of the elves of the Celadon with whom the Urnstmen are closely allied, not to mention the opportunism of both the common Urnstmen, the Honorable Chamber, and even Duke Karll himself, all push the Duchy in that manner.
Greyhawk probably wouldn't tip over Nyrond so much as enrich itself at Nyrond's expense. Greyhawk's position in Urnst's maneuverings would probably depend on whatever arrangement can profit it the most. It is, for all intents and purposes, an enemy of the Duchy, and if supporting Nyrond keeps the Duchy in check and distracts the demihumans of the Cairn Hills from Greyhawk's claims on their territory, excellent. If the Duchy and whoever it splits Nyrond with offer a trade boom, particularly in the slave trade which is sure to erupt, Greyhawk won't waste any time getting with the winning team.
The gnomes of the Flinty Hills are probably going to side with Nyrond, based on traditional alliances and trading ties, since they figure they need Nyrond for support against the elves of the Adri, the independent Flan nations, Bone March, Ratik, and the Pale. The dwarves of the Griffs would probably be motivated to side with Nyrond as well, given the traditional enmity between dwarves and elves, given that the Urnstmen are allies with the elves of the Celadon. Where they would side in a conflict between the gnomes of the Flinty Hills and Ratik is anyone's guess, since their ties are more closely attached to Ratik. Of course, if there's a boom in the slave markets, some of these dwarves will be eager to join in. (They already, IMO, are heavily involved in Nyrond's slave trade, so why not?)
All this while Nyrond is dealing with its own War of the Roses. It's not necessarily doomed to fall in all this-keep in mind that England basically fought the War of the Roses while simultaneously fighting the Hundred Years War with France. So Nyrond might still pull through. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I totally agree that realpolitik would trump alignment - which is why it would be mad for the Urnsts or the Iron League to beat up Nyrond.
I can see some of the old Suloise nobles in both Urnsts being anti-Nyrond, but the satisfaction of settling old would be more than counterbalanced by the realpolitik realisation that a fragmented Nyrond and strengthened Pale and Ahlissa are both bad news for Urnst (esp. the County, which would effectively be surrounded by hostile or unstable states). So - it's possible that Sewedernt might have some support from rogue Urnsian nobles (adventure hook!), but I doubt the governments of either state would approve.
When have Onnwal and Irongate suffered from heavy handed Nyrondese diplomacy? Nyrond's always supported them to the hilt in the various wars with the GK and South Province. And how would weakening Nyrond and strengthening Ahlissa be in the realpolitik interests of the League? Both Onnwal and Irongate are very isolated and short of friends at the moment. They're stuck between Ahlissa and the Brotherhood - so stabbing their only close ally to the north in the back over non-existant grudges is going to help them how?
In the case of both the Urnsts and the League, weakening Nyrond wouldn't be realpolitik so much as cutting off their nose to spite their face.
I totally agree that realpolitik would trump alignment - which is why it would be mad for the Urnsts or the Iron League to beat up Nyrond.
When have Onnwal and Irongate suffered from heavy handed Nyrondese diplomacy? Nyrond's always supported them to the hilt in the various wars with the GK and South Province. And how would weakening Nyrond and strengthening Ahlissa be in the realpolitik interests of the League? Both Onnwal and Irongate are very isolated and short of friends at the moment. They're stuck between Ahlissa and the Brotherhood - so stabbing their only close ally to the north in the back over non-existant grudges is going to help them how?
In the case of both the Urnsts and the League, weakening Nyrond wouldn't be realpolitik so much as cutting off their nose to spite their face.
We clearly have different visions of Nyrond. In Onnwal, the Urnst states and Irongate, Nyrond is just as much of a threat as is the Pale or the Aerdi states. Onnwal and Irongate are both very wary of the threats to their sovereignty from Nyrond-who's to say that the "ministers" and "advisers" from Nyrond aren't going to be there permanently?
IMO, Nyrond has (and still does in its weakened state, although far more subtly) constantly interefered with its Iron League "allies", being more than ready to send punitive expeditions against Idee or Onnwal, to undercut it in trade and diplomacy with neutral realms like Greyhawk or the Sea Princes, or to generally loom over them threateningly, like the Great Powers of Europe might have done in the past-dividing Poland between them (Nazi Germany and the USSR), blatantly interfering in Spanish politics to place their own candidate on the throne against the wishes of the dying monarch and his people (Britain in the War of Spanish Succession), and generally pressing down on them (Italy for several centuries before its unification).
If anything, Nyrond has been the greatest threat to the Urnst states. While there is no longer open warfare and annexation, Nyrond's tendency to speak softly and carry a big stick (which it still uses as it strives to free itself from the heavy chain the Urnst states have around its neck), up to and including a constant but underlying menace of invasion.
And it's not a case of strengthening Ahlissa and the Pale-rather, it's a case of playing them off against one another and keeping either one from getting strong enough to menace them. The Iron League states would always skirmish with one another over matters of trade, territory and resources-wars between Idee and Sunndi, for instance-and this in spite of their close alliance against the Great Kingdom. How would they react when a kingdom that's almost as strong as the lot of them put together horns in on their alliance without invitation? The Iron League was as strong as iron, and the Golden League was as strong as gold. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
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As what I've expressed previously doesn't work for you, I won't express it again or rephrase. I'll try this.
And without such a hook, I think Nyrond's potential (which you have ably identified) goes begging by all but the already sold on Nyrond.