So, thinking about how higher church positions in the late Middle Ages were dominated by the younger sons of noble families, got me to wondering how the same thing might apply to guilds and other organizations of wizards in GH. Would nobles view these organizations as something they would want to "infiltrate" their children into, and if so, how much luck would they have doing so?
The standard thinking as I view it is that wizardly organizations seem be organized more along the lines of merit than privilege. Even then though, the children of nobles might have a leg up in that they would be most likely to be able to afford and have the greatest chances for success in schools that train in the magical arts. Add to that political connections. While this wouldn't equal total dominance I do think that it would result in wizardly orders and guilds being top-heavy with the children of the nobility.
For the most part I would say no, as guilds are, show shall I put this, organizations made up of commoners. Some guilds might be more prestigious than others, but those will be non-blue collar guilds, and there is really only one of those type of guilds worth anything, at least so far as a noble would be concerned- the wizards' guild.
Nobles "pawning off" sons to the church was all about increasing secular power, and such might be the same in certain areas of the Flanaess. A wizards' guild has power simply due to its members being master of arcane power, but, then again, pissing off one member of a wizards' guild doesn't necessarily bring the whole guild down on your head tossing fireballs here and there. A wizards' guild is more a loose affiliation of wizards who band together for the betterment of them all, not necessarily to be able to band together to threaten whoever, whenever. Wizards' guilds just don't work that way, and the ones that somewhat do work that way are not really all that cooperative with the nobility to begin with.
The likeliest one that does work with the nobility is the War College of Furyondy, which is supported by the king. It might be considered a coup to have a pair of noble children who graduate from the War
College, one with martial training, the other with battle magic training. If a guild has a good reputation, having noble scions trained in the arcane arts is a small feather in the cap, but it also says "Don't mess with this family, as some of them might just fricassee you, or even turn you into something unnatural!"
But, even a wizards' guilds do not exercise the level of power and influence that a church does. It is just a lesser choice, and there is no comparison there at all. But, it might be a choice for some families with lots of children, where one has already been fostered to the church. A lesser choice than even a wizards' guild would be some sort of scholarly guild, as that at least would imply higher learning, something which, generally, the nobility will have access to and foster.
While blue collar guilds are generally beneath the nobility, some nobility might own business enterprises with foremen/bosses who are are a part of such guilds. For instance, the nobility basically own the land, and the greater portion of what it produces in most cases, whether that be foodstuffs, leather goods, mines, timber, etc. it would be beneath great lords to be directly involved with the business aspects of such industry, but lesser nobles serving them might very well be much more involved, and even have offspring directly involved in their local guild hierarchy.
For example, a local lord might not be one of many guild masters administering a merchant consortium, but they might hold a seat on that ruling council, meaning they might have controlling power to shut down anything they do not approve of, but without having the direct responsibility of running much if any of day-today affairs of the guild. And the guild pays their portion of taxes to that lord on top of that.
That's just of the top of my head, and surely the above could be presented more eloquently. In a nutshell, non-church affiliations would be mostly beneath greater nobility, while it might be considered a stepping stone to power and influence by lesser nobles. There's a start to the discussion at any rate. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I would think that the various magical "guilds" would be treated much as Ivy League colleges are treated by the establishment today, at least in the Aerdy east. The first son is raised up to rule, and possibly packed off to Rel Astra or Greyhawk City to get his wizardly pedigree (Crandens and Garasteths don't maintain their standing by being fierce gardeners!). The second son learns at the foot of a warrior or is sent off to an influential priesthood and so forth.
The commoners strive for that chance-of-a-lifetime to get that "higher learning" and come out ready to make their mark (or seek employment with various other factions). The sons and daughters of nobility see it as a birthright and merely a stepping stone along the way to temporal dominance.
Like Ceb, I don't see the guilds themselves wielding much influence other than to make things easier for them to be able to keep their noses in books without being bothered overmuch by the locals or any spats between the various nations or city-states.
You don't send the kid to Greyhawk College because you want influence with it. You send them to learn to be a powerful magic user.
Good points, especially about the amount of influence wizardly organizations would hold as compared to the churches. I thought of that just after posting. Much of the influence the church had in medieval Europe was due to the hold it had on the entire population. If you piss them off they excommunicate you. While plenty of nobles could hold onto power while being excommunicated it does make your position much less stable. This doesn't translate directly to GH due to there being no overarching church (Except in certain nations). Get excommunicated, you might be able to gain the support of another church. Although this could still cause problems if your populace is very dedicated to the god of the church you were excommunicated from. Also, I envision many churches acting in informal blocs in GH, so if one excommunicates you then the rest of them might also.
With wizardly organizations on the other hand there is potential for the feeling of the populace to be the opposite (Especially in Keoland), which would be a factor in deciding whether or not you want to send your son or daughter to wizard school. yes, I think you are both right in that nobles would send children for wizardly training to enhance their personal power and not to gain political influence with the guild or through them others.
I agree with most of what Cebrion and Ashur have already said.
Historically speaking, lesser sons of moble families did seek church appointment - not as local priests, but as Bishops and Cardinals. They were the ones who had the resources to learn to read and write, in Latin as well as their own, local, language. This brought them great wealth and power and tied them very closely to the temporal powers of Medieval Europe. This tie between secular and non-secular authority was so great that it resulted in the Avignon Papacy (the Babylonian Captivity) where the Pope was selected from French Cardinals and the church headquarters were located in Avignon, France for about 70 years. So, noble families certainly would seek to get members inside the powerful churches in the area.
As Cebrion said, nobles would not want to involve themselves directly in the running of blue-collar guilds, but I think he mispoke when he called wizards' guilds 'blue-collar.' I believe they are better qualified as white-collar guilds and, because of the power they possess would be primary targets for noble families to attempt to control or, at least, influence through the membership of their own. Many churches would be tempered in their attempt to directly influence non-secular authority as they, at least nominally, serve a higher power. However, wizards' guilds wouldn't have that issue as a tempering factor. Depending on the guild and its membership, there may be other tempering factors (such as simply prefering to be left to their own, studious, devices instead of desiring to stick their noses into governance of the local populace), but if one were so inclined, they would be positioned very well to exert such influence on any government. They have the power and the political connections necessary.
Of course, there may be organizations just as powerful as a wizards' guild that either support them in such efforts or oppose them. Such a consideration may also prove a factor in how much influence a wizards' guild chooses to exert on the local or national government. This especially applies to the power of the local church(es). As Cebrion mentioned, a wizards' guild wouldn't have the support of the local population that a church could call upon.
It seems to me that most of the Flanaess exists much as Medieval Europe did after the Reformation regarding this issue, at least. There are usually many different faiths vying for the dedication of the populace, so, unless we're talking about the Pale or the kingdom of Iuz, a single church wouldn't have that much power by itself.
One more historical issue to consider (in support of the positions taken by Cebrion and Ashur) is the effects of the Renaissance (1300-1550) on the attitudes of noble progeny. As universities began to become prevalent across Europe, more and more noble offspring decided to try to 'make it on their own.' That meant that the the true 'Renaissance Man' became educated and earned a position of power, wealth, and influence without relying on family connections. He should be well-educated, without having specialized - the true Liberal Arts education. In practice, it didn't often happen without some familial connections, but that was the ideal, at least. This type of attitude may be useful to explain why many nobles would join a wizards' guild, yet eschew political influence.
Some guilds might be more prestigious than others, but those will be non-blue collar guilds, and there is really only one of those type of guilds worth anything, at least so far as a noble would be concerned- the wizards' guild.
I don't think I mispoke.
As to the the "Renaissance man" angle, that was seen as a mark of elevation, but let's just say that non-inheriting offspring would be much more apt to pursue such a course than an inheritor, and of course non-nobles could pursue the very same achievements. A commoner could garner wealth and influence, if not power, thereby, but for an inheriting noble, it really is more of a talking point when they already have the power, wealth, and influence.
As to the Silent Ones, they are not going to be much of an exception. The Silent Tower is no ivory tower all about developing social contacts, so sending children off to the Silent Ones where their familial agenda could potentially be subverted to the agenda of the Silent Ones would not be viewed as a positive thing. The Silent Ones are mostly apolitical, only sharing a dirty little secret with the Neheli and so are somewhat allied with them due to that, so sending a child to them would do very little so far as power, prestige, and influence in Keoland is concerned.
I think that there are many a Postfest topic hidden in this discussion:
* Expanding upon the "Magical Societies of the Flanaess" article.
* "Where the Noble Families of the Flanaess Send Their Children for Enrichment" (very broad topic, and, yes, that title could be better )
* "Guilds of the Flanaess" (very broad topic)
* "(Young) Nobles of the Flanaess" (very broad topic) _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Some guilds might be more prestigious than others, but those will be non-blue collar guilds, and there is really only one of those type of guilds worth anything, at least so far as a noble would be concerned- the wizards' guild.
As to the the "Renaissance man" angle, that was seen as a mark of elevation, but let's just say that non-inheriting offspring would be much more apt to pursue such a course than an inheritor, and of course non-nobles could pursue the very same achievements. A commoner could garner wealth and influence, if not power, thereby, but for an inheriting noble, it really is more of a talking point when they already have the power, wealth, and influence.
I think it depends on how you model your campaign on medieval and renaissance Europe. In late medieval England study of the law by members of the upper classes was a big deal, as was litigation. Despite periods like the Wars of the Roses, disputes of the kind that land-owners tend to get into began to be settled more in court than on the battlefield. And in cases where people thought it should be settled on the battlefield it often ended up in court anyway. Here's a good example. Other elements of a proper education were grammar, rhetoric, logic, Latin (I'd substitute Old Oeridian or Ancient Suloise, depending on where you live), and philosophy. All of these would come in useful when in law court and at the royal court. A noble who can make a better argument is more likely to persuade, and benefit, than some lout who can swing a sword. Like I said at the beginning, depending of course on how you model your campaign.
Cebrion wrote:
I think that there are many a Postfest topic hidden in this discussion:
* Expanding upon the "Magical Societies of the Flanaess" article.
* "Where the Noble Families of the Flanaess Send Their Children for Enrichment" (very broad topic, and, yes, that title could be better )
* "Guilds of the Flanaess" (very broad topic)
* "(Young) Nobles of the Flanaess" (very broad topic)
I think this is a great idea. I've never really done an in-depth reading of City of Greyhawk, but this seems to be one of the best canon sourcesl for researching these topics.
The disposition of (legitimate) second sons in the Flanaess is quite interesting. Assuming we are using primogeniture as the dominant law form, at least for the Oeridian dominated regions, the first-born son obviously inherits the whole estate. What are the options:
Clergy: Only of an "upper class" power. Think Heironeous vs Beory in Furyondy. The latter may be actively worshipped by the mass of the peasantry, but the former has social cachet.
Military: A professional military career as a knight would be socially respectable, and would provide the possibility of earning a title in his own right.
Noble of the Robe: More of a Rennaissance concept, this would imply education at one of the Flanaess great centers of learnging (Greyhawl, Rel Mord, or , shudder, Rauxes). Such individuals would have a liberal arts education enabling them to serve at court in various capacities, and poosibly earn a title of nobility for their service.
Mercenary: A noble's son will likely have military training, and access to superior intitial equipment. While not socially acceptable, it may still provide a livelihood.
Adventurer: See mercenary
Wizard: I find this rather unlikely. First a level of natural aptitude is required. Secondly, if the first son predeceases, then the young wizard needs to be plucked from school and taught how to rude a horse... not very likely or convenient.
The disposition of (legitimate) second sons in the Flanaess is quite interesting. Assuming we are using primogeniture as the dominant law form, at least for the Oeridian dominated regions, the first-born son obviously inherits the whole estate. What are the options...
-Brings up the question of whether the Oeridians follow primogeniture or not. IIRC, the English and salian Franks did, most of the others did not. That's why Germany and Italy got sub-divided over and over again.
Is there any canon on this? The old (pre-Greyhawk Wars) Wild Coast and (pre-conquest) Pomarj probably sub-divided among the sons, but that's a Suel precedent. Aerdi, Nyrond and Furyondy and Keoland all seem to follow primogeniture, tho'.
tarelton wrote:
...Clergy: Only of an "upper class" power. Think Heironeous vs Beory in Furyondy. The latter may be actively worshipped by the mass of the peasantry, but the former has social cachet...
-No argument. D&D 3.5 equivalent would normally be a Cleric, although perhaps an Adept (if poorly trained).
tarelton wrote:
...Military: A professional military career as a knight would be socially respectable, and would provide the possibility of earning a title in his own right..
-No argument. Fighter, Paladin, or Aristocrat, normally.
tarelton wrote:
...Noble of the Robe: More of a Rennaissance concept, this would imply education at one of the Flanaess great centers of learnging (Greyhawl, Rel Mord, or , shudder, Rauxes). Such individuals would have a liberal arts education enabling them to serve at court in various capacities, and poosibly earn a title of nobility for their service...
-Expert or Aristocrat. But Wizard or Sorcerer could also work, maybe even Bard (emphasizing the lore rather than music/acting).
tarelton wrote:
...Mercenary: A noble's son will likely have military training, and access to superior intitial equipment. While not socially acceptable, it may still provide a livelihood... Adventurer: See mercenary...
-Respectability could depend on the causes accepted.
tarelton wrote:
...Wizard: I find this rather unlikely. First a level of natural aptitude is required...
-Depends. In most campaigns, the biggest requirement would be an INT score of 12 or higher, which wouldn't be that unusual (about 25% of general population, probably a little higher with privilege). After that, it's mostly training (for which the parents have time & money). Sorcerer is more of an innate thing.
tarelton wrote:
...Wizard: I find this rather unlikely... Secondly, if the first son predeceases, then the young wizard needs to be plucked from school and taught how to rude a horse... not very likely or convenient.
-Nah. In the WOG, service as a magic user would be acceptable in lieu of service as a knight, except maybe in Keoland.
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Some guilds might be more prestigious than others, but those will be non-blue collar guilds, and there is really only one of those type of guilds worth anything, at least so far as a noble would be concerned- the wizards' guild.
