I'm confused because the semi-canonical Oerth map has Nippon (close to Zindia). Specifically, this is called the Nippon Empire. I think Oerth should have Rokugan and not Nippon because Rokugan was specifically Gygax's (& co) brainchild just like Greyhawk. I've always imagined that Rokugan and Flanaess exist in the same world.
Making Rokugan completely separate from Flanaess just complicates things, because then you have to create a separate "Japan" for Oerth and separate Western civilization (and other civilizations) for Rokugan. Combining them just simplifies things. I object to the existence of Nippon. The map should say Rokugan and not Nippon.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought Rokugan was created for the L5R game published by AEG, and was written by John Wick, not Gygax & Co. WotC merely acquired the use of Rokugan from AEG, and used it in the most recent Oriental Adventures (which probably credits everyone that ever worked on anything "Oriental Adventures"). So far as I know, Gygax and Co. had nothing to do with Rokugan. Perhaps you are thinking of the Kara-Tur of the original 1E Oriental Adventures book, which was worked on by Gygax, Cook, and Froideval.
To be honest, I am not much of a fan of either, as there is a bit too much cut-n-paste from real life (history and otherwise) going on it both products. If I had to choose one though, Rokugan fits the geography of the Flanaess better. The sort of gimmicky nature of the Rokugan clans (which suit a card game particularly well, but not really an RPG) is something I might tweak a bit though. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:59 am; edited 2 times in total
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought Rokugan was created for the L5R game published by AEG, and was written by John Wick, not Gygax & Co. Are you perhaps confusing Rokugan with Kara-Tur? David Cook is credited with creating Kara-Tur.
It may be that I'm just confusing things here, but...
"Legend of the Five Rings was also the "featured campaign setting" of the Oriental Adventures expansion to the third edition of Dungeons & Dragons, though this book is now out of print."
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"Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition
The second version of Oriental Adventures (ISBN 0-7869-2015-7) was written by James Wyatt and published by Wizards of the Coast in October 2001. The cover art is by Raven Mimura, with interior art by Matt Cavotta, Larry Dixon, Cris Dornaus, David Martin, Raven Mimura, Wayne Reynolds, Darrell Riche, Richard Sardinha, Brian Snoddy, and Arnie Swekel.[9] It uses the D&D 3rd Edition rules. The book includes five new races, including the spirit folk, nezumi, and vanara, five new classes, over two dozen new prestige classes, one hundred new spells, and seventy-five new monsters. The featured campaign setting of this edition is Rokugan, a campaign setting originally created for the game Legend of the Five Rings."
It seems that the Gygax's version wasn't based on Rokugan, but the 3rd edition version is.
Gygax's version was based on Kara-Tur as you said. But this was later on added to Forgotten Realms and no longer (?) part of Oerth.
Things get complicated now.
Does Oerth have...
...Nippon (not really described anywhere).
...Kara-Tur (now part of Forgotten Realms and originally AD&D campaign world).
...Rokugan (part of the L5 campaign setting)
?
I left some things out of my first post, and edited it heavily. Re-read it please.
As to Greyhawk, it has neither Rokugan or Kara-Tur. it does have a "Nippon", if you go by the older Dragon Magazine Annual map (not the Paizo one). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:03 am; edited 1 time in total
To be honest, I am not much of a fan of either, as there is a bit too much cut-n-paste from real life (history and otherwise) going on it both products. If I had to choose one though, Rokugan fits the geography of the Flanaess better. The sort of gimmicky nature of the Rokugan clans (which suit a card game particularly well, but not really an RPG) is something I might tweak a bit though.
Cebrion, you really hit the nail on the head. I'm afraid that my players will feel a bit awkward and disillusioned if an NPC says "I come from Nippon". It's the same as saying "the fantasy world ends in Flanaess and we have a cut-n-paste medieval 'Japan' right there. We even named it Nippon, can you believe?"
OOPS! I think I was thinking of the Celestial Kingdom. Kara-Tur fits the geography of Nippon just a tad bit better (might just be the big island aspect of it that makes me say that though. ). See here:
Personally, I used Wogyuo in my "Beyond the Flanaess" maps, but that was only because I didn't like "Nippon" and the text accompanying the DA map specifically said that wasn't the real name (apparently Heward and Mordenkainen are both sufficiently aware of our Earth to recognize the cultural similarities between our Nippon and Oerth's analogue).
I don't use Ryuujin because it makes the "Sea of Nippon" to the west and "Sea of the Dragon King" mostly superfluous; it apparently means "dragon god" in Japanese. Plus, there doesn't seem to be anything in the Dragon article (#277) that specifically links it with Oerth's Nippon other than they both sound Japanese. It could be anyplace.
I got Wogyuo from an ancient name of Japan (apparently it's what the Japanese called themselves before the Chinese named their country for them). Not a perfect solution, and most definitely non-canon.
Gygax's version was based on Kara-Tur as you said. But this was later on added to Forgotten Realms and no longer (?) part of Oerth.
Note that Gary Gygax had nothing to do with creating Kara-Tur. 1st edition Oriental Adventures was designed by David "Zeb" Cook (see the credits page).
The only part Gygax had in Oriental Adventures was coming up (with Francois Marcela-Froideval) with the initial concept, which Cook discarded and entirely rewrote, and in writing the introduction to the book. Gygax was on record saying that Marcela-Froideval's original (much shorter) draft was superior.
The closest thing we have to Gary Gygax's version of "Oriental" Oerth is the short story "The Five Dragon Bowl" in his Gord the Rogue anthology Night Arrant. In it, Gord and Chert encounter a sage from the far western Suhfang Kingdom. This is an analog of China rather than Japan, however.
As for Rokugan, you could fit it on Oerth, probably in western Oerik somewhere (the region marked "Erypt" fits pretty well), but it officially has its own world, with neighboring lands similar to the Roman Empire, Ancient Egypt, and India. Here's a map. Here's a thread about Rokugan's world.
As for the islands labeled "Nippon" on the Dragon Annual #1 map, given the neighboring cultures (the Indian-like culture of Zindia), equatorial latitude, and extreme distance from the Celestial Imperium (Suhfang), that area should probably be based more on Indonesia than Japan. The "Sea of the Dragon King" is essentially Oerth's equivalent of the Indian Ocean, so it makes the most sense to build the local cultures accordingly (remembering that there are Olmans to the north influencing things).
The existence of "Japanese Ogres" (ogre magi) in the 1st edition Monster Manual implies some sort of Japanese analog on Oerth. I think the most sensible place for it on the Dragon Annual map is "Dragons Island" in the Celestial Sea. It'd still be a much warmer place than Japan, but its location off the coast of the Celestial Imperium makes it a better fit.
Well ... I will say, I voted for the canonical "Nippon". yes, yes ... we all know that it's an older Historical name for Japan. But, that's not likely something that most people would ever know if GH fans hadn't ever mentioned it. I know I wouldn't have. Just like I wouldn't have known Greyhawk Grognard's "Wogyuo" was another historical name.
But, at any rate, all the above stuff is correct about Legend of the Five Rings. WotC licensed the setting from John Wick and AEG, trying to tie-in to the most popular oriental setting out there. When AEG wrote supplements during the 3rd Edition era, they even dual-statted the books with D&D stats and the R&K system from AEG.
Also, I agree with Rasgon about the clan-based system being fine for a TCG card game, but not so much for an RPG. Essentially, each clan is equivalent to it's own nation inside the Empire, if it were in another setting. Interestingly, James Wyatt did a conversion of Kara-Tur for 3rd Edition in Dragon Magazine #315 using all of the material from the 3rd Ed. OA book. He converted different prestige classes and such to various nations of Koryo, Shou Lung, Tabot, et al.
But, one thing that I will say about it, is that there is much less of the direct-analog thing. While there are some clear stereotypes, there is much less of a "this is Japan", "this is China" mentality. There's Japanese stuff directly alongside Chinese and Mongollian. One thing that I always think is unusual is a Mongolian (Unicorn Clan) Samurai, but, because the culture of Rokugan is much more homogenous, there's not as many distinctions. Each clan is very different from one another ... Crab vs. Crane, Lion vs. Scorpion ... but, they're all still Rokugani.
I like a lot of oriental material out there. I like to draw from many places. I don't want GH to have a place that's a carbon copy of another one out there. Personally, I like the new Dragon Empires setting expansion from Paizo. It's much more along the lines of what I think should have been done for Greyhawk. It's a *fantasy*-oriental world. It uses mythology and magic and whatnot, but there are much fewer direct analogs, and there's way more unique eastern cultures that are original and new that have their own flavour and story. They still incorporate an India for example, but, it's very not like anything that I've seen before. It's home to the Naga and Nagaji. Even the Naga are not the standard D&D nagas.
Another example: In Western Oerik (the Chainmail setting), the faction called "Ahmut's Legion" is near the border of the Celestial Empire. I like the "tainted" monsters and undead found there, and so I like to imagine that the Celestial Empire has something akin to the "Tainted Lands" of Rokugan. It's a very poular concept in Japanese fantasy and mythology, and I think that I would love to have something similar (yet with a different twist to make it unique) in GH.
At any rate, I use the Celestial Empire, Nippon (or whatever name you'd like to call it), et al. as a Mythical Orient ... but, I use lots of material as inspiration. Rokugan (both the D&D setting and L5R), Legend of the Burning Sands, Paizo's Dragon Empires, Jade Dragons and Hungry Ghosts, Kara-Tur, Mythic Vistas Mindshadows (Narajan), etc. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Well ... I will say, I voted for the canonical "Nippon". yes, yes ... we all know that it's an older Historical name for Japan. But, that's not likely something that most people would ever know if GH fans hadn't ever mentioned it. I know I wouldn't have.
It's not an "older historical name" for Japan, it's Japan's current name (in Japanese). It's like having a country on Oerth called Deutschland or Italia, and about as obscure.
I would also argue against it being canonical, since the only source that mentions the name casts doubt on its accuracy in-character. I would accept that it's canonically a name that appears on a map owned by Heward, but as Heward himself doubts it's the real name of the land it should probably be considered at least dubious.
As far as older historical names go, Marco Polo called it Cipangu, which I imagine fewer people would have a problem with.
Quote:
Personally, I like the new Dragon Empires setting expansion from Paizo. It's much more along the lines of what I think should have been done for Greyhawk. It's a *fantasy*-oriental world. It uses mythology and magic and whatnot, but there are much fewer direct analogs, and there's way more unique eastern cultures that are original and new that have their own flavour and story.
I agree that Dragon Empires is pretty good. It's closer to imitating for East Asia what the Flanaess did for Europe. In the Flanaess, cultures are rarely straight lifts from the real world (there's no unambiguous "Greyhawk England" or "Greyhawk France").
It's not an "older historical name" for Japan, it's Japan's current name (in Japanese). It's like having a country on Oerth called Deutschland or Italia, and about as obscure.
Hmm. That's my poor choice of words. I meant that the name existed in history long before "Japan" did. I really hadn't given any thought to its current usage.
Quote:
I would also argue against it being canonical, since the only source that mentions the name casts doubt on its accuracy in-character. I would accept that it's canonically a name that appears on a map owned by Heward, but as Heward himself doubts it's the real name of the land it should probably be considered at least dubious. ... As far as older historical names go, Marco Polo called it Cipangu, which I imagine fewer people would have a problem with.
This is actually a point that I agree with rather fervently. I frequently point out that names people don't like are often just placeholders from foreign languages. "Orcreich", can easily be translated to mean something like "Orcs rule here". Much like Nippon, its not likely what the orcs themselves call the place. Just as we might put "Here There Be Dragons", or "Dragon Empire", the inhabitants themselves would have an entirely different name for it.
Just like Hepmonaland (named for its first explorer, Eri hepMona) is more locally known as "Melavi". Or how "America" was named for its most famous cartographer (Amerigo Vespucci) who showed it was a different continent. And while the US uses "America", there are dozens and dozens of nations in North and South America that don't use the word.
Essentially, I think that there's too much heated debate over a name, when - as you say Rasgon - the article itself points out that:
Heward wrote:
... I can't vouchsafe the place names; doubtless the locals have their own names for many of the areas."
I have to add, though, that I think taht it's additionally interesting that Heward refers to the map being "cobbled together from diverse sources". It certainly seems that is generally the case IRL, too. Especially nowadays. There's names and such from canon, Froideval's Black Moon Chronicles, Chanmail, various Dragon magazines and the like, etc.
I'm just impressed that anyone's players have gotten that far afield from the Flanaess. In three plus decades of DMing the Greyhawk setting, my players never got farther than the Sea of Dust! And they died there pretty darn quick.
Although, I think that the OP may've been going more for content and and setting information than just name alone. ... and I think I may be venturing too far afield from the original specific question about the Oriental lands of Oerth.
No problem, this is not just about the name, although the name is important too. I have been really enjoying the exchange between you and Rasgon and I stand corrected: Gygax only came up with concept of OA and not the whole thing.
I definitely need to check out Dragon Magazine #315. I just need to form a clear view what kind of OA I would like to have in my campaign. It will only play a very small role: There's a foreign diplomat in Gradsul and ninjas attempt to assassinate him. I just need a bit of background and also I need to be aware of the fact that this all might lead into having my players take a ship and see Nip... Rok... ARGH
All of these products, and others besides, could simply provide parts of what you will eventually use. Chop them up and use what suits you, if anything does, or create your own version completely. The point is, there isn't really anything old school and oriental that was purpose-made for Greyhawk. It will be up to you to either bash a square peg through a round hole, or make your own round peg to fit in nicely. There is good and bad in both products. If you have both of them, you have a good starting point, if you don't want to have to create everything yourself. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I'm just impressed that anyone's players have gotten that far afield from the Flanaess. In three plus decades of DMing the Greyhawk setting, my players never got farther than the Sea of Dust! And they died there pretty darn quick.
Hah, same here, so far I've never needed to flesh out the Far West too too much but I have though tabout it for purposes of flavour and possible eventuality.
Personally I greatly dislike the use of Nippon, Zindia and Erypt. Although there is a definite precedent with real world analogy with the cultures of the Flanaess those three names show creative laziness of the grossest kind.
I came to a similar conclusion about the area marked as Nippon as Rasgon that it makes sense as an Indonesian flavoured land although I've given it a placeholder name of Neggon (based on the Javanese word for 'land' and sounds a bit like Nippon)
I decided to use parts of the Rokugan material and the map to apply to the Celestial Imperium but I flipped the map so that west on the map is now due north. I've kept the idea of the Clans in the same way the Great Kingdom had the Aerdy Tribes / Noble Houses and kept Lady Sun and Lord Moon as the main deities but introduced Xan Yae as part of their cosmology. The Shadow's role is filled by Tharizdun (who although often over used is under used IMC) as the entity hungry for entropy and the snuffing out of life. I'm sure Zuoken has a role to play too.
The Rokugan setting mentions the Ki-Rin / Unicorn tribe who went off wandering. I've scrapped the creature idconography and made these people connected to the Brazen Horde.
I've imagined that historically there was a lot of trade and links between The Baklunish and Celestial Empires (thus the appearance of Xan Yae as a Baklunish deity in the eyes of the easterners at least) however much friction between the Suel and Celestial Empires due to conflict over posession of 'Zindia'.
Obviously there are a number of holes in the fit but it serves my purposes well enough to answer questions from players and provide a richer sense of 'beyond the Flanaess' so when the wizard wants to find green tea I can say it where it is from or when they want to buy an orangutan (you know what players are like) I can say that it was imported from 'Nippon' to the south-west!
...or when they want to buy an orangutan (you know what players are like) I can say that it was imported from 'Nippon' to the south-west!
You mean, "Neggon", don't you?
SirXaris
Dagnammit - yes I do. Although perhaps that is the name the plane-travelling Orangutan timelords gave it when they arrived from Earth to escape deforestation by the palm oil industry hehe
...or when they want to buy an orangutan (you know what players are like) I can say that it was imported from 'Nippon' to the south-west!
Hmm. I was always under the impression that no one in the Flanaess knew anything of significance about nations/lands from "across" the Sea of Dust/Dry Steppes?
The Amedio Jungle and Hepmonaland -- both relatively close to the Flanaess -- are considered "long voyages" and exotic locals. Why, Korund's voyage to Fire-land is still disbelieved by some!
I'd imagine most people don't. The majority of the humans are peasants and labourers are busy trying to survive but in the real world people traded really long distances right back into ancient times and I don't see the Flanaess being much different.
Educated indviduals, merchants and some adventurers might be more in the know. Still their information is probably 4 parts fantasy for every part truth and limited to places that might actually have trade connections, even if it is via a third party such as Shufeng silk imported via Zeif.
There is still plenty of mystery left I just think hinting to the players at more beyond the Flanaess adds depth and more mystery to the world.
I also get the impression that a lot of the lack of information and mention about the lands beyond the Flanaess and how some of them might relate to established lands in the Flanaess are more to do with the lack of established source material for writers.
Maybe this is going a bit off topic now .... sorry Sutemi!
Bear in mind that in the "Gord the Rogue" books, knowledge of the lands beyond the Sea of Dust and further afield was a given.
We know that merchants from Behow and Jahind are seen as far afield as Karnoosh (which is a city on that little lake in the Dry Steppes). We also know that Hop the mountebank is fond of quoting guru mystics of "the west" and Gord takes the references in stride, apparently knowing what a "guru" is without needing explanation. Scholar Yeo mentions that Suhfang is "virtually unknown to the Flanaess", but enough is known of it and its philosophies to be able to come up with a philosophical argument in the Silver Castle tavern to attract his attention. I suspect that his statement was a demonstration of Yeo's arrogance rather than an honest assessment. And we do know that in the original GH campaign, at least some of the original adventurers undertook extensive overland adventures returning from the other side of the world, once they had penetrated the deepest levels of the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk.
Certainly the Flanaess is the centerpiece of Oerth from a gaming perspective, but I don't think it was meant to be as isolationist a place as some might think.
...Hmm. I was always under the impression that no one in the Flanaess knew anything of significance about nations/lands from "across" the Sea of Dust/Dry Steppes?
The Amedio Jungle and Hepmonaland -- both relatively close to the Flanaess -- are considered "long voyages" and exotic locals. Why, Korund's voyage to Fire-land is still disbelieved by some!
Guess the "new" Flanaess is more knowledgeable in these matters. The "mystery" of Oerth is . . . gone.
-I think it depends on "when", too. In CY 576, anything off the Darlene Map is vague and fuzzy to even the most knowledgeable, except the very few who have actually "been there" (and not always believed).
By CY 591 (Adventure Begins), an expedition has gone from Ratik to Fireland and back, and I'm sure there are other expansions in knowledge. But even the most educated, unless they've been there, would only have minimal knowledge of Nippon.
It could certainly have to do with "when" we're talking about, as James mentions. I think a lot of this is just speculation coloured by individual prefences ...
But, as far as how known the orient of Oerik is, there's a very straightforward reference in Return of the Eight (591CY):
WGT1 - Return of the Eight, p62. (in description of Alhamazad the Wise of Zeif) wrote:
"Alhamazad has ties to sorcerers far to the west, across the Dry Steppes and beyond the Dramidj Ocean. He has hinted that he would like someone to visit one of these distant lands in his stead, as he is infirm these days: the path would follow known caravan routes into lands with a strong Oriental flavor."
So, there's "known caravan routes". That implies a whole lot about trade and travel to the orient. It could be argued taht this is something like Marco Polo's journies, or that it's more like vigorous trade ... but, the sillk worms are coming from somewhere, and there's reference enough to other trade goods that are generally considered "oriental".
I don't think that anyone can reasonably say that the orient is unknown, even if the yokels don't entirely believe it, Europeans didn't believe that there was a China, either, or grey-skinned animals with armored hidee that had bone spears sticking out from their face, and noses eight feet long.
And i doubt that Alhamazad keeps this a perfect secret ... if he's looking for someone to go, he's obviously talking to people about it to drum up interest and talking about what's there and what he wants someone to do.
So .... yeah. there's that. I probably gvave about 4 cents worth. Anyone wanna give me their two cents in change? _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
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