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    Canonfire :: View topic - Trithereon's Home Plane
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    Trithereon's Home Plane
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:39 pm  
    Trithereon's Home Plane

    I am posting this to the wider Canonfire! group even though I will refer to 1e sources for my information. However, I invite a broader discussion across all editions and perspectives.

    According to the original boxed set, Trithereon's home plane is listed as Gladsheim. As most of us know, Trithereon is a Chaotic Good Power.

    In referencing "Manual of the Planes" (a 1e book that I have grown to enjoy), the various planes seem to have a sort of continuum that connects them. Check out page 73. According to this table, Olympus is the plane of Good Chaotics. "Next door" to the right is Gladsheim, the plane of Chaotic Good Neutrals. To the left of Olympus are the Happy Hunting Grounds (AKA the Beastlands), plane of the Neutral Good Chaotics.

    I have read the descriptions of these 3 different planes and wonder if Gladsheim is the 'proper/best' place for Trithereon's home plane. Gladsheim is the 'roughest' of the goodly planes and hardly a place of any sanctuary. It is the plane of the rough-and-tumble, ever fickle and I daresay, aggressive/warlike bunch of Norse mythos. I grant you that Trithereon is no pacifist (hardly), and surely expects his faithful to be battle-ready and willing to defend themselves (one can make the same argument for the followers of Heironeous, but he dwells in the relatively kinder, gentle plane of the Seven Heavens).

    In reading Olympus, one finds the fractious and still combative pantheon of the Greeks, but also the Seldarine. Many (non-canon?) references have been posted aligning Trithereon to the nature Powers, the elves among them, and Olympus is marginally less dangerous than Gladsheim. Furthermore, it is the home plane of the "Good Chaotics" rather than "Chaotic Good Neutrals."

    Finally, there are the Happy Hunting Grounds (Beastlands). Even though it is the home plane of the "Neutral Good Chaotics" I contest this is the best location for Trithereon and his spirit-followers. As his name outright suggests, he is the Summoner of beasts (animals). In fact, his three 'sidekicks' include a hound, a sea serpent, and a falcon. Many (non-canon?) posts have given him an almost ranger-like quality, and his specialty priests track as rangers (even though, oddly, they have no Animal Sphere to speak of, they still DO have the ability to Summon/Conjure animals). Although it is far more idyllic a setting than either Olympus or Gladsheim (for sure!), it can still hide its own dangers in the form of the beasts that stalk the plane.

    OK, I've stated my thoughts and claim. I am interested to hear feedback. I am also interested how different people interpret the alignment listings given for each plane: Neutral Good Chaotics (Beastlands), Good Chaotics (Olympus), Chaotic Good Neutrals (Gladsheim).

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:43 pm  

    The three planes are different points on the spectrum between absolute liberty and absolute good. Absolute liberty (Limbo) unconstrained by morals or responsibility is at one end of the spectrum, and absolute good (Elysium) is at the other, representing a balance between the chaotics' view of what the greater good is, in which liberty is considered a good in itself, and the lawfuls' view, in which responsibility and duty are considered to be important goods and individual rights are more of a luxury subordinate to the needs of the many.

    The question, then, becomes where Trithereon fits on that spectrum. If forced to choose between an individual's rights and the needs of the many, what would he choose? If the answer is that he would always err on the side of individual liberty, even if it caused some harm to others, then he's closer to chaotic neutral than neutral good and belongs in Gladsheim. If the answer is that he'd err on the side of not hurting others even if individual liberty had to be sacrificed, he's closer to neutral good than chaotic neutral and belongs in the Happy Hunting Grounds. If he represents a balance between those two extremes, always seeking to find a happy medium between liberty and doing no harm, then he belongs in Olympus.

    In my opinion, worrying about what other gods inhabit the plane is a lesser concern. He can always open portals to communicate with his friends on other planes, and he can shape his realm to look however he wants it to look, even if it's very different from the rest of the plane. If he wants his realm to be a forest full of beasts, it can be, whether it's on Gladsheim, Olympus, or the Beastlands. If he wants his realm to be full of warriors it can be regardless of what his plane is, even if the other gods around him aren't very warlike. Bast's realm is a desert even though that's a very different terrain from what the Norse gods have on the same layer of the same plane.

    Phrases like "Neutral Good Chaotics" that Jeff Grubb came up with are borderline incomprehensible gibberish, and I find it's easier just to use tendencies. Erythnul is chaotic evil with chaotic neutral tendencies, for example, so he belongs in Pandemonium. Beltar is chaotic evil with neutral evil tendencies, so she belongs in Tartarus. Trithereon is listed as chaotic good without any tendencies, so one might expect him to dwell on Olympus. However, if you think (as Gygax apparently did) that he seeks to advance personal liberty even at the cost of significant harm to others, then he may edge his way into Gladsheim even if he doesn't quite deserve to be noted as having chaotic neutral tendencies.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 934
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

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    Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:04 am  

    In defense of Jeff Grubb, Gary gave us phrases like "neutral good chaotics" all the way back in Players Handbook. Grubb just copied the Gygaxian straight into Manual of the Planes. As to the OP's question, I agree with the placement, regardless of what MotP has to say. Gary created Trithereon and listed Gladsheim as his home plane. He knew it was the plane of "chaotic good neutrals" because he wrote it as such, and he chose to name it "Gladsheim" because he based it upon the Norse pantheon. I would play up that connection in a Greyhawk campaign (without actually including the Norse deities). Try this cast of characters on for size:

    Aerdrie Faenya = Freya
    Kord = Odin/Thor
    Nathair Sgiathach = Loki
    Phyton = Balder
    Rudd = Sif
    Sotillion = Frigga
    Surtur = Surtur
    Thrym = Thrym
    Trithereon = Uller
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:16 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Phrases like "Neutral Good Chaotics" that Jeff Grubb came up with are borderline incomprehensible gibberish, and I find it's easier just to use tendencies.


    Absolutely correct. You are either "lawful," or you are "neutral," or you are "chaotic."

    There is no such thing as "Neutral Chaotic."

    You can be "Good" or "Evil" or Neutral towards both view points.

    You can be "Lawful" or "Chaotic" or Neutral towards both view points.

    "Neutral Chaotic" means you lost sight of what "Neutral" stands for.

    Neutral Good = You stand for Good, but are Neutral towards Law. A Neutral Good person has no problem removing a tyrant from power.

    Lawful Good = You stand for "Good," but the tyrant -- unfortunately -- was appointed by the King and is the "lawful authority" of the region. Since you also stand for "Law," it is not your place to remove him from office without permission from the King that appointed him; a.k.a. "due process." Learn to live with him.

    "Neutral Chaotic" is as much gibberish as "Neutral Lawful" would be. rolleyes
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:36 pm  

    Apropos of this discussion, I was recently going through all my old Planescape material, and the supplement "On Hallowed Ground" gave locations for a number of the Oerth deities, including Trithereon. He was, in fact, moved to Olympus/Arborea; his realm is listed as "The Forking Road", which is less a realm and more of a 'concept' that travelers can encounter going across the plane.
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