WeeJas Dissected Part I
by Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVDammerung)
Introduction
WeeJas. Goddess of the Suel. Goddess of Magic. Goddess of Death. Perhaps one of the most controversial of deities. She has been variously described in every edition of the game. Yet, her essential nature remains open to a great deal of both interpretation and speculation. Who exactly is WeeJas? This article will not attempt to answer that question definitively, for nothing suggests that such a definitive answer is to be found within canon. Rather, by looking at primary source material, this article will attempt to place WeeJas within the context of her own descriptions from which it may be possible to better understand the goddess.
The Controversial Goddess
E Gary Gygax, of course, created WeeJas. However, he described her almost not at all. When he did speak of deities of magic or death, at greatest length in the Gord the Rogue novels, he spoke of Boccob and Nerull. Why? Because those gods were most involved with the story.
The Gord the Rogue novels tell the story of the imprisoned god Tharizdun’s release and eventual destruction of Oerth. Opposition to the dark god comes not from a union of the forces of weal but principally from those who seek Balance and who expose the cause of neutrality. Chief among these is the arch-wizard Mordenkainen, leader of the Circle of Eight, who reveres Boccob. Nerull appears in the Gord the Rogue books as standing in opposition to Gord, who works with Mordenkainen and those allied with the forces of neutrality.
WeeJas plays no role in the Gord the Rogue novels. Of course, WeeJas is a Suel deity and little of the action in the Gord novels takes place in those lands predominantly inhabited by the Suel - Keoland and its surrounds. When this is recognized, the Gord books may be understood as giving no primacy to Boccob as God of Magic and Nerull as God of Death over and above WeeJas as a Goddess of Magic and Death. The story did not principally touch on those lands where WeeJas is held in the highest regard. EGG was writing a story; he was not writing game material in the Gord the Rogue novels. The needs of the story determined that Boccob and Nerull would figure prominently and that WeeJas would not.
In all, the Gord novels are largely irrelevant to an appreciation of WeeJas. That she does not enjoy the same prominence in the novels as Boccob and Nerull says nothing of WeeJas’ standing, either as a goddess or as a goddess compared to Boccob and Nerull.
Comparison between WeeJas and Boccob and Nerull is nonetheless inevitable. Because WeeJas, as a goddess of magic and death, shares the same portfolios as Boccob (magic) and Nerull (death), comparisons are going to naturally occur. Because the portfolios of these gods overlap, the question comes easily - what is the relation between these deities?
Boccob is identified as the God of Magic and Nerull is identified as the God of Death. Because of their prominence in the Gord novels, and because WeeJas has a broader sphere that encompasses both magic and death, it is too easy to jump to the conclusion that WeeJas, as Goddess of Magic and Death, must somehow not enjoy quite the same control over the domains of magic and death as Boccob and Nerull do individually.
On the other hand, even if the foregoing impulse is not a work, there remains an impulse to explain how WeeJas’s relationship to magic and death is different than that of Boccob and Nerull individually. Unfortunately for WeeJas, because Boccob and Nerull are described as gods of magic and death (respectively) in very broad terms, explaining how WeeJas is different often amounts, practically, to defining her relationship to the domains of magic and death in less broad terms. If Boccob and Nerull are 100% of magic and death, or nearly so, and WeeJas, as goddess of magic and death is “different,” any quantification of that difference sees her less than the maximum 100% relationship already accorded to Boccob and Nerull respectively.
By itself, this might not raise any eyebrows. Two facts are, however, inconvenient.
WeeJas is the Suel deity of magic. Of the Suel Mages of Power, little needs to be said. The Suel were mighty mages and WeeJas, as their goddess of magic, by any but the most tortured of reasoning must reflect more than a little of this. At the same time, no race more than the Suel has such an notable experience with death. The Rain of Colorless Fire caused the death of the Suel Empire. At the same time the magical Invoked Devastation (see 1E Fiend Folio Hordling entry), killed much of the former empire of the Baklunish. Whether speaking of the death of her people or the deaths of others, no deity has such a documented connection with death as does WeeJas. WeeJas trades in the deaths of millions upon millions.
That WeeJas is initially described by EGG as a greater goddess makes her all the harder to dismiss as anything other than Boccob’s and Nerull’s equal.
This then is the origin of the controversy that clings to consideration of WeeJas. It is perhaps catalyzed by her “demotion” to intermediate deity status in later editions.
Rather than acknowledge WeeJas as the equal of Boccob and Nerull, both greater deities, and unable to do otherwise given her pedigree, was WeeJas “put in her place” by main force? By arbitrarily assigning her intermediate deity status? That may well depend on just how WeeJas is depicted in the various editions. It is to this exploration that we will now turn.
First Edition
In 1E, WeeJas makes her first appearance in the Greyhawk folio and the subsequent expansion thereupon, the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set. WeeJas is literally nothing more than a line of text. She is identified as a greater deity of Suel origin. Her portfolio includes only the domains of magic and death, without explanation or elaboration. This is in contrast to Boccob whose portfolio is one of magic and arcane knowledge and Nerull, whose portfolio is one of death, darkness and the underworld. WeeJas aligns lawful neutral. Nothing more is indicated.
That Boccob and Nerull are both written up in some detail, while nothing more is said of WeeJas, begs the question of any comparison or relative relation of the deities and their portfolios. Given the prominence Boccob and Nerull have in the Gord novels, it does not stretch credulity to imagine that these deities were perhaps foremost in Mr. Gygax’ mind and thus received a greater discussion. The first Gord the Rogue novel, the Saga of Old City, was published in 1985.
WeeJas next appears in 1E in the pages of Dragon Magazine No. 88 on page 11. Written by Len Lakofka, the article describes WeeJas in the mechanical terms of 1E but also provide some insight into who Weejas is as a (greater) goddess. In pertinent part, it is said of WeeJas:
“Weejas is a master of magic. She knows every magic-user spell of any level, plus every cleric, druid, or illusionist spell of 5th level or lower. . . . WeeJas is loath to allow anyone to be raised or resurrected who is lower than 9th level or not lawful. . . . She can summon groups of lawful undead . . . to do her bidding, but the tasks she sets for them must not be in violation of their alignment. . . . she is highly lawful . . .She is not on good terms with any chaotic deity. . . . She is on favorable terms with all lawful deities because she is known to uphold law above all else. Demons and all other chaotic figures loathe and despise her. Chaotic undead avoid her, but must obey her if she commands them into service.”
From this description, one fact becomes immediately obvious. WeeJas is lawful. As regards the undead, WeeJas can command both lawful and chaotic undead. In 1E terms, her access to magic-user spells is unlimited.
WeeJas’s clerics are not limited either. WeeJas is only loathe to raise or resurrect characters of less than 9th level. Such is not forbidden, however, to her clergy so long as they “consult her in the matter . . .”
Nothing suggests that WeeJas is a “limited” deity with respect to her portfolio of magic and death.
Second Edition
With the advent of 2E, WeeJas next appears in any detail in the From the Ashes boxed set. Without explanation, WeeJas is listed as an intermediate power, not a greater power. Her alignment shifts to LN with LE tendencies. Her description on page 93 of the Atlas of the Flanaess states, in pertinent part:
“WeeJas is primarily lawful, but she inclines toward evil through her preoccupation with power. She is a protector of the dead, and her priests are only rarely allowed to command undead creatures, having to commune with WeeJas to see if this is acceptable to her.”
Is this the same deity? Without preamble, WeeJas is suddenly a protector of the dead. There is no necessity that this be so based on prior description. Without preamble, her priests can only command undead if a commune spell is first cast. Previously, there was no such obvious limitation. Her priests merely had to “consult” with her if they wished to raise or resurrect characters of less than 9th level.
Carl Sargent, author of From the Ashes, has limited WeeJas’ divine power by demoting her to an intermediate goddess, rather than having her a greater goddess. He has limited her role with respect to the death domain by declaring her a “protector” of the dead. He has limited her priests by requiring a commune spell before undead can be commanded. All of this he has done without explanation and without any basis in prior description. WeeJas is no longer a deity on a par with Nerull. WeeJas will next be diminished with respect to Boccob and the magical domain.
In The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory, Sean K. Reynolds next describes WeeJas in detail. She is once more a greater goddess and her portfolio has expanded. She is now a goddess of magic, death, vanity and law. She is also noted to be a “witch goddess.” She is described on pages 80 and 81, in pertinent part:
“WeeJas oversees death and the application of magic in the world. Unlike Boccob, who oversees magic in all of Oerth, WeeJas’ domain is the creation and usage of magic items and spells. . . [she is] Worshiped mainly by wizards (and especially necromancers) . . .[But] Note that she is a protector of the departing soul, not the body; therefore she does allow use of spells such as animate dead. She is supportive of wizards who wish to become liches . . .”
Much as described by Sargent, SKR’s WeeJas is a “protector of the Soul” but her clerics are not limited in their ability to command undead; indeed, they may freely animate dead, which one can imagine they would then command. WeeJas is worshiped by necromancers and is supportive of lichdom. SKR’s WeeJas, with respect to the death domain, takes something from Sargent but also something from Lakofka’s more “sovereign” WeeJas. Confused? It gets worse.
While increasing WeeJas’ power with respect to the death domain from Sargent’s description, SKR sharply limits WeeJas’ magic portfolio. WeeJas is limited to creation and usage of magic items and spells. This pronouncement is made with a specific comparison to Boccob, who is given oversight power over all magic. The right hand it seems gives, while the left hand takes away.
Arguably, WeeJas as described by Lakofka, Sargent and SKR are sufficiently different to be almost unique definations. Obviously, it is the same goddess but the precise details vary significantly. Reconciliation between the disparate descriptions is difficult, bordering on the impossible.
At this point it may be well to ask, so what? If WeeJas’ description (pick a card, any card) reveals a different relation to the magic or death domains that those of Boccob and Nerull, respectively, so what? How does this “diminish” WeeJas?
With respect to divine status, greater goddess versus intermediate goddess, the answer is obvious. The greater a deity, the more worshipers and influence the deity may have and the more spell power the deity may be able to grant to its priests, depending on edition for exact details.
With respect to the magic domain, a deity with an essentially unlimited relationship to “magic” must be more esteemed and powerful than one whose relationship is in some fashion circumscribed. When SKR defines WeeJas as a deity of the creation and use of spells and items, he is essentially making her into a magical craftsperson of a deity, while he reserves to Boccob oversight over all things magical. Boccob’s position is then one of rulership while WeeJas is a divine guildmaster. WeeJas is then subordinated to Boccob in practical effect.
Much the same occurs when Nerull is given a broad oversight over the dead and undead but WeeJas’ relation to the death domain has prerequisites for her priests or practical limits. The meta-game considerations are critical. Undead generally have great prominence in the game. Any deity whose relationship with or to the undead is limited will suffer in comparison to a deity unburdened by such limitations, along with their priests. Sargent’s WeeJas is subordinated to Nerull.
But again, so what? Recall the initial look at WeeJas as the Suel goddess of death and magic and what that said about her and the Suel people and Empire. That is why it matters. Diminishing WeeJas radically alters more than just WeeJas. It impacts an appreciation of the Suel in the game and their historic role. That it does so without explanation only makes matters worse. Beyond the difficulty of three distinct WeeJas,’ there is the illogic of any WeeJas that calls into question the Suel in history. EGG’s WeeJas and Lakofka’s work with the common understanding of the Suel. Sargent’s and SKR’s by various degrees do not and in so doing diminish not just WeeJas but the Suel and a consistent understanding of setting history.
But the saga is far from over. Enter the Greyfans! (In Part II) _________________ GVD
WeeJas Dissected Part II
by Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVDammerung)
con't from Part I
WeeJas in Living Greyhawk
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer straddles the rules divide between 2E and 3E. It is the product of internet Greyhawk fans Erik Mona, Gary Holian, Fred Weining and the previously heard from SKR. By popular understanding, SKR is back in the LGG to describe WeeJas on page 187. His description is notably inconsistent in significant measure with his own prior description of WeeJas in The Scarlet Brotherhood. In pertinent part, he describes WeeJas, now changing divine status for the fourth time, back to an intermediate goddess:
“[WeeJas] promotes the utilization of spells and magic items (though many of her Suel followers insist she favors the creation of such things). She gained her death aspect when the survivors of the Rain of Colorless Fire looked to their goddess of magic for assurance that the dead were being escorted to the afterworld. . . .Her clerics must get her permission before restoring a weak or chaotic being to life.”
WeeJas has been demoted in pure divine status. She is now less than even a divine magical craftsperson, as she now is just a goddess of magical “utilization.” She is again concerned with the fate of the dead and not death, per se. She is then significantly subordinate to both Boccob and Nerull, simultaneously, for the first time. WeeJas is at her lowest ebb. Sargent’s limitations from FtA, SKR’s limitations from The Scarlet Brotherhood and even Lakofka’s “consultation” requirement all appear together, exacerbated by the aforementioned further diminution of her relationship to the magic domain.
The only upside to this low watermark is the bizarre manner in which it has been arrived at. Four significantly distinguishable versions of WeeJas, who has at the same time gone from greater goddess to intermediate goddess to greater goddess and back to intermediate goddess. There can be no logic to such a parade of incarnations. Indeed, all the changes made to diminish WeeJas are never explained, with the possible exception of WeeJas, described in the LGG, with respect to the death domain, but even that appears out of whole cloth. And that is most damning. In each instance noted, facts about WeeJas were just made up with more or less disregard for what had gone before. The overall effect of diminishing WeeJas as compared to Boccob and Nerull under these circumstances raises an all but obvious question - what is going on here?
Obviously, WeeJas is being diminished, by fits and starts. Why? The inconsistency of the attempts to define and redefine WeeJas, coupled with the consistent downward spiral is more than suspicious. It is damning. There can be no “logical” explanation under these circumstances. The only explanation is the most obvious. There is a desire, evident over multiple products and years, to see WeeJas subordinated to Boccob and Nerull, also deities of magic and death, who, respectively, have seen nothing like the gyrations WeeJas has been put through. EGG’s description of WeeJas, substantially supported by Lakofka’s work, has been found wanting and has been systematically chipped away until we are left with the WeeJas of the LGG, a shadow of the WeeJas described by EGG and Lakofka.
That Sargent was influenced by the Gord the Rogue books is obvious from a reading of his Greyhawk products. It seems likely then (though not a certainty) a false premise that Boccob and Nerull enjoy a pride of place over WeeJas has been erroneously drawn from the Gord novels, as described in the beginning of this article. The result has been the systematic attempts to “put WeeJas in her place” - subordinate to both Nerull and Boccob. SKR’s works have largely either followed suit or simply ignored consistency, the descriptions of WeeJas in just SKR’s works not even agreeing.
This is bad Greyhawk scholarship and worse game material. But the story does not end with but WeeJas’ 1 through 4.
Third Edition
Any discussion of 3E Greyhawk is problematic. Living Greyhawk is a unique creature of the RPGA and is intended to function for the RPGA. Greyhawk, more generally, is the “core” or “default” setting for 3E, however, the efforts of 3E designers to use Greyhawk as more than a source of names is inconsistent, depending on the author and the product.
WeeJas has been significantly developed in 3E, as distinct from Living Greyhawk, but the question remains whether this should be considered the WeeJas of Greyhawk or simply a deity with the same name. This article will finesse the question, looking at the basic description of WeeJas in 3E but avoiding discussion of subsequent 3E developments of WeeJas where her statistics are not specifically set out. A list of these sources will, however, be provided.
While WeeJas is described in the 3E Player’s Handbook, that description is very abbreviated. WeeJas is first described at any length in 3E in the Deities and Demigods book at pages 96-97. In pertinent part, it is said of WeeJas that she is an intermediate deity and that:
“WeeJas promotes using spells and magic items (though many of her followers insist she favors the creation of such things).”
This description obviously echoes that found in The Scarlet Brotherhood, except that there, WeeJas was a greater goddess. This description also echoes that of the LGG, except that the restrictions regarding her death portfolio and not repeated. There is thus yet another WeeJas variation.
In addition to the 3E Deities and Demigods description, WeeJas is described in the following 3E books in some detail but without being given game statistics:
The Manual of the Planes (3E) at p. 127 (description of Cabal Macabre, focus on death and magic)
The Complete Divine at p. 119 (focus on death and magic)
The Complete Divine at pp. 100-101 (description of WeeJas’ relics Ruby Blade and Scrolls of Uncertain Provenance, focus on undead and connection between life and death)
The Complete Arcane at p. 188 (comparison of Boccob and WeeJas, noting WeeJas “darker” deity but no power comparison).
Beyond these entries, there are a number of lesser 3E sources of information on WeeJas that will not be discussed because they, much like the entries in Zavoda’s Index, are minor.
What then, at the end of the day, are we left with?
WeeJas, Goddess of Many Aspects
What follows is a tabular look at each version of WeeJas that allows for a quick comparison.
WeeJas (The Original) - WJ1
Authored By - E. Gary Gygax
Deity Status - Greater Goddess
Alignment - LN
Domains/Portfolio - Magic and Death
Restrictions on Magic Domain - None
Restrictions on Death Domain - None
WeeJas (Dragon 88) - WJ2
Authored By - Len Lakofka
Deity Status - Greater Goddess
Alignment - LN
Domains/Portfolio - Magic and Death
Restrictions on Magic Domain - None
Restrictions on Death Domain - Minor
WeeJas (From the Ashes) - WJ3
Authored By - Carl Sargent
Deity Status - Intermediate Goddess
Alignment - LN(LE)
Domain/Portfolio - Magic and Death
Restrictions on Magic Domain - None
Restrictions on Death Domain - Major
WeeJas (The Scarlet Brotherhood) - WJ4
Authored By Sean K. Reynolds
Deity Status - Greater Goddess
Alignment - LN(LE)
Domain/Portfolio - Magic, Death, Vanity, Law (Witches)
Restrictions on Magic Domain - Major
Restrictions on Death Domain - None
WeeJas (Living Greyhawk Gazateer) - WJ5
Authored By - Sean K. Reynolds
Deity Status - Intermediate Goddess
Alignment - LN(LE)
Domain/Portfolio - Magic, Death, Vanity, Law (Witches)
Restrictions on Magic Domain - Major
Restrictions on Death Domain - Major
WeeJas (Deities & Demigods 3E) - WJ6
Authored By - Rich Redman/Skip Williams/James Wyatt
Deity Status - Intermediate Goddess
Alignment - LN
Domain/Portfolio - Magic, Death, Vanity, Law (Witches)
Restrictions on Magic Domain - Major
Restrictions on Death Domain - None
There are six versions of WeeJas. No two are alike when deity status and restrictions on WeeJas’ chief domains of magic and death are compared.
What other figure in Greyhawk has seen so many inconsistent variations? None. The question is obvious, made moreso by the sheer number of variations, if nothing else. Why WeeJas? The answer is just as obvious by a look at the roster of major Greyhawk Deities - WeeJas has the combined portfolios of both Boccob and Nerull and she is a goddess of the Suel, a more than significant people in Greyhawk’s history. She simply cannot be ignored. Why then the restrictions? The answer again is obvious.
Put benignly, there has been felt a need to distinguish WeeJas from Boccob and Nerull. But that begs the question. Why tinker with WeeJas, while Boccob and Nerull are left undisturbed? Why should restrictions be placed on WeeJas and her divine status lowered, while nothing comparable is done to Boccob and Nerull? The answer would seem to be that WeeJas is more amenable to such modifications because she is not as important or central to Greyhawk as Boccob and Nerull. Again, the question is begged. How is that conclusion reached?
The Gord the Rogue novels are the only Greyhawk material that might lead one to the conclusion that WeeJas is not as important or central to Greyhawk as Boccob and Nerull because WeeJas does not appear in the novels and Boccob and Nerull do. Yet, arriving at this conclusion from the Gord novels is erroneous, sloppy thinking.
As has been noted, the Gord novels told a story to which WeeJas, being a Suel goddess, was not central. That Boccob and Nerull appeared speaks to the needs of the story, not the Greyhawk setting in general. To draw conclusions of the importance of Greyhawk deities based on the Gord the Rogue novels (1) would be to use them for a purpose they were never intended to serve, (2) would ignore the difference between writing fiction and writing game material and (3) would have extreme consequences for the World of Greyhawk if this faulty logic were applied to other than just WeeJas. Reasoning from the Gord the Rogue novels to attempt to justify what has been done to WeeJas is transparent, garbage reasoning that demonstrates at best a willful ignorance of the faults of such reasoning.
But being charitable, if the Gord the Rogue hypothesis does not explain the origin of WeeJas’ treatment, what does? The various author’s who have addressed WeeJas just did not do their homework or did not care? Possibly. But given the sheer number of times WeeJas has been “defined” unlike any other deity, this seems far fetched.
So, if it is not the Gord hypothesis and its not poor authoring, then what is the explanation? And there must be an explanation because the number of incidents is so great. This is not a case of one, two or three variations, but six! Explain it! Not Gord? Okay. Not poor authorship? Okay. Then what?
Well. If we look at the Gygax roster of gods in the 1983 boxed set and compare that listing to the roster of gods in From the Ashes (Powers of Greyhawk Reference Card) a funny thing appears. From the Ashes demoted every greater deity of Suel extraction to intermediate status. In From the Ashes, there are no Suel greater deities. Wow. Ever noticed that before? So, maybe that explains WeeJas’ treatment, at least in From the Ashes, although it does not explain her later, continued treatment.
But. Let’s consider this. Does the demotion of every Suel god or goddess of greater status, per EGG, to intermediate status, per Sargent, make any sense? I think the answer is clearly, very clearly, “No.” The Suel as described as an ancient people and as described as a people post-Migration are clearly not so insignificant or so absorbed or extinguished or degenerate that all of their deities are intermediate deities at best. There is nothing to support this kind of a radical reevaluation of the Suel.
While there are various unquantified statements scattered throughout Greyhawk sources that Suel deities, including WeeJas, are not much worshiped, this would not be sufficient explanation without some greater explanation and quantification. Taking just WeeJas, her temples are found from the lands of the former Great Kingdom to Greyhawk to Keoland. No exact numbers are ever given but the sheer numbers of references to WeeJas’ temples and worship (particularly funerary rites, and Greyhawk sees lots of deaths) is at odds with the notion that she, or any other Suel deity, does not have many worshippers. What is more, there is no certain relationship between a deity’s status and number of worshipers. This has been a hotly debated topic that has seen several variant sets of rules throughout the editions. In short, no help here.
So. Summing up. The Gord hypothesis is a nonstarter with more than a cursory examination. The poor author hypothesis seems overly farfetched. The inferior Suel hypothesis also doesn’t seem to hold water. Why has WeeJas been “redefined” to limit her as compared to Boccob and Nerull, then? We now have an answer - for no good reason. There is no good reason for WeeJas’ inconsistent and continual redefinitions. What has happened from From the Ashes on is simply unjustified and wrong. Bad Greyhawk scholarship. Bad game design. Bad canon.
WeeJas should be considered a greater goddess equally powerful with respect to the magic domain as Boccob and with respect to the death domain as Nerull. From the Ashes is so obviously riddled with poor thought with respect to all deities (see Suel hypothesis) and with special respect to WeeJas (deviating radically from WJ1 and WJ2 with no rationale) that its “canon” in this regard, and all that follows in its footsteps, is so suspect that it must be rejected as founded on no solid footing.
There is no “canon” WeeJas after From the Ashes. There are merely multiple inconsistent treatments for which there is no reasoned explanation. These inconsistencies are offensive to rational consideration of Greyhawk, in their own way, ever as much as the tales of Estarius Rose, Childsplay or Puppets.
The Gord the Rogue novels are the only Greyhawk material that might lead one to the conclusion that WeeJas is not as important or central to Greyhawk as Boccob and Nerull because WeeJas does not appear in the novels and Boccob and Nerull do.
That, and the fact that Boccob and Nerull are detailed and statted in the '83 boxed set, and Wee Jas is not. And from the same source, both Boccob and Nerull are "Common" deities, noted as "worshipped in most areas", wheras Wee Jas is "Suel", limiting her worship to a certain racial group. Note that other deities are both racially-specific and common, including Nerull himself ("FC"), so Wee Jas's racially-limited demarcation is clearly intentional. Furthermore, the Intermediate status did not exist at that time, so while Wee Jas is clearly not a Lesser God, it is not immediately whether she is more powerful, less, powerful, or equally as powerful as the average Greater Deity. It is clear from Dragon, however, that her power is considerably limited against Lendor, the head of the Suel pantheon, and it is not unreasonable to then assume that Lendor's status demarcates the upper limit of Wee Jas's potential, at least so long as they both remain limited to the Suel as worshippers.
The Gord the Rogue novels are the only Greyhawk material that might lead one to the conclusion that WeeJas is not as important or central to Greyhawk as Boccob and Nerull because WeeJas does not appear in the novels and Boccob and Nerull do.
That, and the fact that Boccob and Nerull are detailed and statted in the '83 boxed set, and Wee Jas is not. .
As I noted - "That Boccob and Nerull are both written up in some detail, while nothing more is said of WeeJas, begs the question of any comparison or relative relation of the deities and their portfolios. Given the prominence Boccob and Nerull have in the Gord novels, it does not stretch credulity to imagine that these deities were perhaps foremost in Mr. Gygax’ mind and thus received a greater discussion. The first Gord the Rogue novel, the Saga of Old City, was published in 1985."
The 1983 box was published in well, 1983. Novels don't write themselves, however, and Mr. Gygax was doubtless working on his first novel well prior to 1985. Thus, it is entirely within the realm of reason that he wrote more about Boccob and Nerull in the 1983 set because he was also preparing to write or writing Saga of Old City at some near point in time.
In any event, if he really intended Boccob and Nerull to have greater prominence that WeeJas, as deities, he could have made that clear far more easily. He did not, leaving you to guesses and surmises, much as myself on the point.
Nellisir wrote:
And from the same source, both Boccob and Nerull are "Common" deities, noted as "worshipped in most areas", wheras Wee Jas is "Suel", limiting her worship to a certain racial group. Note that other deities are both racially-specific and common, including Nerull himself ("FC"), so Wee Jas's racially-limited demarcation is clearly intentional. .
Two points.
First, as I indicated in my article, there is no agreement that worshipers = deific power, in a one to one relationship, or any relationship. It is a point of long controversy. Thus, assuming arguendo, that Boccob and Nerull have more worshipers does not mean they have greater powers.
Second, it is not at all clear that Boccob and Nerull have more worshipers from the source you cite. Read it again. "Then, racial origin of the deity is stated: C = common in most areas." The text specifically refers to "racial origin" not number of worshipers. I believe you have the quote wrong.
Even if we say "common in most areas" means that worship of the deity may be found in "most areas" that does not necessarily mean more people worship those deities in those areas. Broad but shallow worship? Narrow but deep? Broad and deep? It does not say.
In fact, EGG states, "In general, the greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity, and while they are worshipped, few people hold them as patrons." We then see a distinction between some level of worship and those devoted specifically to a greater god. And yet they remain greater gods, suggesting, again, that number of worshipers do not equal power level, necessarily.
Nellisir wrote:
Furthermore, the Intermediate status did not exist at that time, so while Wee Jas is clearly not a Lesser God, it is not immediately whether she is more powerful, less, powerful, or equally as powerful as the average Greater Deity.
Sophistry. There are greater gods. There are lesser gods. And EGG specifically carves out something in between when Cyndor is noted as a "Greater/Lesser god." If EGG intended to make WeeJas clearly less potent as a deity than Boccob and Nerull, he had the demonstrated ability to do so and yet avoid lesser deity status. Your argument is flawed.
Nellisir wrote:
It is clear from Dragon, however, that her power is considerably limited against Lendor, the head of the Suel pantheon, and it is not unreasonable to then assume that Lendor's status demarcates the upper limit of Wee Jas's potential, at least so long as they both remain limited to the Suel as worshippers.
It stretches no credulity to imagine Lendor, as the patriarch of the Suel pantheon, will be possessed of more absolute power than any other Suel deity. But that misses the point entirely.
This is not "who would win in a fight" type stuff. It is a question of fitting or not fitting within the broad confines of greater deity status, where there is a general equality, at least as to that status in general.
That one deity's avatar has 3 more hit points or casts magic missle more often etc. is irrelevant. The avatar is not the god, merely a manefestation. We are speaking of the gods as immortal divine beings that may fit in but three classes (excluding demi-gods and hero-deities). Upper limit of potential in an avatar says nothing of how two greater deities relate to the same domain, unless it is "who would win in a fight." You are speaking of the physical; I refer to the metaphysical.
Say A can beat up B in a fight. But B can have the IRS audit A every year and the police stop him every time he leaves his driveway. As relates to the domain of "power" which is stronger? My point is only that physical might of the avatar does not necessarily tell the whole story.
Nellisir wrote:
Gonna go watch tv now.
Nell.
I take this as a general or summary dismissal of myself and my argument. How nice. Sorry, if I disturbed you O' Great Old One. _________________ GVD
Oh goody. Let's have the quote, counter-quote argument now.
GVDammerung wrote:
The Gord the Rogue novels are the only Greyhawk material
Flatly untrue. If one did not read the novels, and only read the '83 boxed set, one could reasonably assume Boccob and Nerull are more important than Wee Jas, as I've already stated. The novels are irrelevant.
Quote:
In any event, if he really intended Boccob and Nerull to have greater prominence that WeeJas, as deities, he could have made that clear far more easily. He did not, leaving you to guesses and surmises, much as myself on the point.
He included Boccob and Nerull. He didn't include Wee Jas. The only argument, and confusion, for arguing otherwise comes from the fact that he probably was writing the first novel. If he hadn't written the novel, there'd be no argument.
Nellisir wrote:
And from the same source, both Boccob and Nerull are "Common" deities, noted as "worshipped in most areas",
Quote:
I believe you have the quote wrong.
Indeed I do. Essence of the point remains, however.
Quote:
My point is only that physical might of the avatar does not necessarily tell the whole story.
In physical might, Wee Jas is probably stronger, actually. But she cannot counter Lendor, and he has the power to essentially banish her at will. That's metaphysical enough for me.
Nellisir wrote:
Gonna go watch tv now.
Nell.
GVDammerung wrote:
I take this as a general or summary dismissal of myself and my argument. How nice. Sorry, if I disturbed you O' Great Old One.
Sure, if that's how you like it. Or you could figure out I was posting at about 9:58 pm EST, and I wanted to watch Numb3rs at 10 pm EST. I like Numb3rs, and Sabrina Lloyd is SUCH a cutie (SportsNight was such a cool show). So, whatever floats your boat.
The first issue is are Boccob, Nerull and WeeJas all properly greater deities. Or does WeeJas somehow deserve to be an intermediate deity? Not a greater deity?
Answer that question before "who would win in a fight?" The question of relative power between greater deities is a secondary question, answerable only after the first is answered such that we would be speaking of three legitimately greater deities.
As for your initial answer being dismissive, let's see.
(1)A one paragraph response to a rather lengthy post (2)that only addressed but a small portion of the larger post and (3)of the four main points advanced therein got two wrong, indicating no attempt to consider before responding and (4) closed with a salutation expressing "better things to do." I'll give you any one of these by itself. Any two. All four? No. This post was dismissive in its essence.
That you may disagree with what I have set out and concluded is fine by me. It would be awful dull if everyone agreed.
That you want out of the discussion and disagree with what I've posted with no reasoning, that's also fine by me.
What I don't care for is having my effort dismissed with a shrugging disagreement that can't even be bothered to get its facts straight.
You want to take on my argument? Do it on the terms presented, not your cherrypicked terms. Or present your own position. Or quit the discussion. Just don't you-know-what on my shoe and try to tell me its raining.
So, given your "response," the first issue is are Boccob, Nerull and WeeJas all properly greater deities. Or does WeeJas somehow deserve to be an intermediate deity? Not a greater deity? _________________ GVD
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