WeeJas Resurrected
by Glenn Vincent Dammerung (aka GVDammerung)
WeeJas. The name is variously spoken with reverence, awe, suspicion and frequently with outright contempt. Derided as the pretty goddess of death, magic, law and vanity, WeeJas is seen by many Oeridians, and even Suel, as a pretender to powers belonging to others and as a deity with such a varied portfolio and demeanor that She cannot be taken seriously - WeeJas, the trifling goddess, the dilettante, the one who doesn’t fit, who has no true place. Such views are born of prejudice compounded by ignorance and a blessed inability to see beyond the end of the nose.
How did WeeJas come to be so regarded and what is the truth of the matter? To answer these questions it is necessary to examine not only the goddess but three other beings of great power.
WeeJas and Boccob
Boccob is the god of neutrality, magic, arcane knowledge, foreknowledge and foresight. To most of the Flanaess, Boccob is _the_ god of magic. WeeJas is an after thought, who must somehow be explained away. The truth is more complicated.
WeeJas is a Suel goddess, daughter of Lendor. She was born divine and her people ruled for generations, enslaving the Oeridians, only grown great after the Suel Imperium’s fall. In all that time, WeeJas reigned supreme as the deity of all things magical and arcane. Her tradition is divine and of the greatest antiquity come down now to the current age.
Boccob’s origin is not divine. He is but a recently ascended mortal. When relations between Boccob and WeeJas are said to be respectful, it is Boccob who respects WeeJas. The goddess is respectful in turn in the way any person of better breeding will be polite to social upstarts who have bulled their way into a society into which they were not born. That the dross of non-Suel magicians genuflect in Boccob’s direction is more a sign of the poor state of their Art and low breeding than anything else.
So too, WeeJas is female and attractive at that. This frightens the paternalistic and patriarchal Oeridian sages and mages, who prefer women, openly or behind a feinting egalitarianism, to “keep to their place.” This is no small cause for merriment and arch comments among the goddesses’ faithful, that Boccob’s adherents and advocates must have some “small problem” that does not plague Suel men.
Attempts to define WeeJas as a patron of magic items or of spells or any of these use, rather than accepting her individuality and primacy of place as the Suel goddess of magic, older than any other, may be seen then as a poorly reasoned attempt to put her “in her place” and elevate Boccob to a station to which he has no right.
WeeJas and Nerull
WeeJas fully respects Nerull, even if the reverse is not necessarily true. While both deities have death as an element of their portfolio, they are of totally different natures. Nerull is dangerous in a way WeeJas is not. Nerull is the death bringer, the destroyer, the active personification of the heedless loss of life. WeeJas is the mistress of the afterlife and death’s door, the keeper of the passage to life beyond life and death, the personification of transition and penultimate knowledge of the eternal.
Nerull is a cackling villain. He wants everything dead and himself the master of a dead world. WeeJas administers death as an essential function of life. Life is a type of magic and law decrees that which lives must die. Death is not to be courted but neither is it possible to avoid it. This is the key to understanding WeeJas’s “varied” portfolio - magic is life, death is the ultimate consequence of life, law governs when life gives way to death or undeath.
Nerull is a far more simple deity of death. He is easy to understand - you die now. WeeJas is complicated. Her doctrine is as much a philosophy as a religion. Simple minds have trouble grasping WeeJas’ portfolio and prefer Nerull’s simplicity and cackling villainy. And the chauvinism of the sages, savants, mages and scholars of the Flanaess is again on display, grown more virulent for their confinement to the strict confines of the Flanaess and their own company.
The rivalry between WeeJas and Nerull is the rivalry between the constable and the rabid serial killer. WeeJas is fully aware of Nerull’s power and the need to hold him in check but is wise enough to avoid a confrontation that could well prove her undoing. Clerics of WeeJas work to thwart Nerull’s naked grabs for power by undermining those efforts directly but more often through third parties or by covertly aiding Nerull’s opponents. The subtlty in their rivalry is WeeJas’. Nerull is unsubtle.
In such affairs, or otherwise, WeeJas’ and her clergy are fully as conversant and skilled with undeath as Nerull and his followers. Again, however, WeeJas is subtle. She is not given to flamboyant displays of undeathly power. But neither will she scruple when matters come to a head. Nerull revels in death and undeath. For WeeJas, it is but another state which must be ordered through the application of law.
WeeJas and Iggwilv
Because WeeJas is subtle where Boccob is obvious and Nerull is brutal, there is some tendency to see WeeJas as an indistinct personality or even benign. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The relationship between WeeJas and Iggwilv is intense and revealing.
Iggwilv is the Mother of Witches. She is the foremost witch in the Flanaess if not Oerik and perhaps all of Oerth. Her progeny and paramours are legend. Her failures are spectacular but her successes, her survival and growing puissance being foremost, are even more so. Iggwilv is less than a goddess but has grown to be something far more than human, if she ever was truly human. Covens of witches throughout the Flanaess look to Iggwilv for guidance, inspiration or are secretly controlled by the Mother of Witches. Her influence is everywhere spread like a thin, vaporous poison, settling in hollows and depressions in the hearts of the greatest cities and the most wild of wildernesses. And she despises WeeJas. Iggwilv envies and covets her divine status and power.
WeeJas is the foremost goddess of witches and her rivalry with Iggwilv is unthinkably vicious and deadly. Iggwilv will acknowledge no superior, goddess or no, and offers direct challenge to WeeJas. The goddess full returns the enmity. Covens dedicated to WeeJas war ceaselessly with covens dedicated to or controlled by Iggwilv, with no quarter asked or given. There is no coexistence possible. If rival covens operate in close proximity, when they are aware of each other, they are at war. Iggwilv, though less powerful than WeeJas in pure might, may operate directly on Oerth, while WeeJas cannot. The end result is a terrible stalemate and bloody attrition that sees neither side long holding a decisive advantage.
Those witches beholding to WeeJas are not “good,” even by any simple minded comparison to those aligned with Iggwilv. While witches guided by WeeJas have more varied alignments than those in Iggwilv’s train, the variance is not so great in practice. The witchy followers of WeeJas align LG, LN and LE; law is paramount. Those of Iggwilv align NE, CE and LE; evil is paramount. In both witchy camps, LE predominates for the Craft is dominated by an ethos of self-serving evil that would impose its order, bending all to its will. The battle between the Mother of Witches and the Goddess of Witches is then a battle between twin evils only slightly leavened by those followers of the goddess who yet pursue the good or seek neutrality and balanced again by those followers of Iggwilv of a chaotic bent.
The wild card in this feud are those witches who will declare allegiance to neither side, for there are many other powers who will sponsor witches, even if WeeJas and Iggwilv are foremost in their offers of patronage. The Craft is diverse, even as it is dominated by evil.
The Little Death
If WeeJas is then capable of being understood in the context of complex interrelationships among powerful beings as something more than a trifling deity but rather an ancient and powerful force in her own right, something must still be said about the addition to her portfolio of the vanity domain. From where does this come? And what does it signal?
The simple answer is that WeeJas’ appearance and all the comments, reflecting a certain attitude or belief, about her appearance have begun to transform the deity, adding to her portfolio and her power. If so many see her as attractive and regard her by some measure in sexual terms, that belief feeds power to the goddess as it would to any divine being. Expressed in terms of “vanity” that mirrors Phyton’s description as a Suel god of “beauty,” WeeJas is evolving in her newest role.
Of course, WeeJas has always been a sexual deity with aspects of a goddess of love. The affair between the LN WeeJas and the CN Norebo is legendary. Opposites attact but more than that, this love affair is the foremost love affair or affair of love between any of the Suel deities and indeed among any of the deities worshiped in the Flanaess, without exception. WeeJas must hold a prominent place in any discussion of gods and love. She lives it.
Myhriss is the only chiefly definable goddess of love and is of uncertain origin. It is reasonably certain, however, that Myhriss is not a Suel deity for her beauty portfolio would be in direct conflict with that of Phyton. Digressions on the nature of beauty do not resolve the central conflict that would appear. Seeing WeeJas as an emergent love goddess does not take away from Myhriss’ portfolio.
WeeJas’ connection with witches, with whom there is a definable sexual tradition, ironically exemplified by WeeJas’ great rival Iggwilv, only reinforces WeeJas’ availability to be placed in or seen in the role of a goddess of love. That WeeJas’ alignment is LN says nothing, neither directly and certainly not in light of WeeJas’ romance with Norebo. It again appears that WeeJas will defy easy pigeon-holing and will be as complex a character in her new role as in her ancient ones.
Sample Cults of WeeJas -
The Necromongers
Being a goddess of magic and death, WeeJas is a natural patron of necromancers. Indeed, more necromancers venerate WeeJas than Nerull, for WeeJas exacts none of the servitudes or obeisance Nerull demands. WeeJas is also far more readily generous in her support, for her agenda includes no conquest of life or anything else so essential a facet of Nerull’s cackling villainy.
The Necromongers are one of the largest death cults which venerate WeeJas as their patron. First appearing in the Flanaess in the van of the Brazen Horde, a quirk of history, the Necromongers long ago outgrew the confines of the northwestern plains. They now exist throughout the Flanaess and seek to bring about the Reign of the Dead - rule by necromancy. In many isolated localities, the Necromongers have succeeded in establishing their terrifying dominion.
Necromonger cultists include many warrior-necromancers and warriors, as well as the necromancers who lead the group. Warriors and other non-wizards inducted into the cult undergo the Death Rite, ritualistic murder or suicide from which they are revived with a taint of death that adds to their prowess in battle. As the Necromongers are found of saying, “You can’t kill us; we’ve already died.”
As devotees of WeeJas, the Necromongers stand squarely against Nerull and his clerics. Death is a transcendent experience and state to the Necromongers, not an end as Nerull would have it. Nerull’s clerics loath the Necromongers and are largely responsible for limiting their growth beyond cult status. In Perrenland, there is a particularly fierce struggle between the Necromongers, Nerull’s clerics and Iggwilv’s minions. Perrenland’s military tradition makes it the Necromongers’ primary target for conversion but they are finding their reach may exceed their grasp.
The Gray Pardoners
In cities across the length and breadth of the Flanaess, a death in the family may be followed by a visit from a quiet figure all in gray and offering prayers for the deceased. These are the Gray Pardoners, who reflect a different aspect of WeeJas’ death portfolio, distinct from black necromancy. Clerics of WeeJas wielding powerful divinations and necromantic magics, the Gray Pardoners seek to assure the dead rest and their families peace of mind. If their ministrations are acceptable, the Gray Pardoners will contact the dead and assure them true passage to the afterlife. They will help the family move on or both the family and the deceased to conclude any unfinished business in this life that was left incomplete. Not a few so helped now say a prayer to WeeJas among their other devotions.
The Gray Pardoners are despised by the clerics of Pholtus. Accused of being ghouls, psychic vampires, mind rapists, ectophages and worse, the Gray Pardoners are harassed, even attacked by worshipers of Pholtus whenever, and wherever, they may cross paths. To the Pholtic Church, WeeJas is sin incarnate, a symbol of Suel depravity that must be blotted out lest good folk be drawn astray. For their part, the Gray Pardoners offer no insult to the Pholtic clerics and attempt to withdraw rather than fight. This is unusual for followers of any Suel deity and raises questions among the thoughtful while raising cries of cowardice from the mob. The truth is elusive.
The Marsh Witches
The Cold Marshes crawl across the northwestern Flanaess, spreading out in frozen bogs, fens and mires for hundreds upon hundreds of miles. Within the chill swamps of the northwest, the Marsh Witches make their homes. Descendants of Flan bogpeople, lost Baklunish travelers, dour Northrons from Blackmoor and some Suel witchmen on a mission from the south, the Marsh Witches are a unique, virtually tribal, culture that venerates WeeJas for granting them the power to survive and thrive. Once enslaved by Iggwilv’s embassies, the bogdwellers were liberated by Sueloise followers of WeeJas, who took the battle between the witch powers to the utter north. With the zeal of the convert and the enthusiasm of the liberated, the veneration of WeeJas was well solidified in this cold land.
In truth, the Marsh Witches are best described as a people supporting a particular magical practice as a central part of their culture, as much as a cult. The only goal of the Marsh Witches is to live free from Iggwilv and Iuz’ predations and practice their faith in peace. Indeed, as long as one ignores the occasional human sacrifices, ritual cannibalism and living interments, it is possible to coexist with the Marsh Witches in relative harmony. Surrounding peoples have, per force, adopted such a strategy, even seeking out individual Marsh Witches said to possess great healing or oracular powers. The greatest Marsh Witch is that one who has strayed furthest from home and become known - Thingizzard. Despite seemingly fatal reverses, the crone still haunts the north central lands.
The Court of the Summoners
As the LN goddess of magic, WeeJas is venerated by those who summon outsiders and bind them to service. WeeJas readily approves of and supports such activities. The Court of the Summoners is a cult that venerates WeeJas for this patronage.
Located for the most part in the central and western Flanaess, the Court of the Summoners is a loosely organized group of individuals allied by their interest in summoning and binding magics. Individual chapters are styled “courts.” Thus, there is a Court of Greyhawk, a Court of Verbobonc, a Court of Gradsul etc. As a whole, the Court of Summoners has no organization wide agenda. It is a support and knowledge sharing group more akin to a specialized wizards guild.
The Court of the Summoners has only once acted in complete concert. It played an instrumental, but quiet, role in the recovery of the Crook of Rao. The Court, with all its various aligned members in agreement, fully supported the banishing of outsiders from the Flanaess during the Flight of the Fiends. Too many of these were not bound. The Court of the Summoners now again holds mastery of fiends as their special purview. To no ones surprise, there is extreme enmity between Iuz and the Court, irrespective of any considerations of alignment.
Black Satin
Combining WeeJas’ portfolios of death, magic and vanity, Black Satin is an assemblage of courtiers, courtesans, panderers and harlots. Assassinations, necromancies, poisonings, debaucheries, indulgences and assignations of every kind are the stock in trade of this illicit guild. First founded at the sybaritic royal court in Niole Dra less than 100 years ago, WeeJas is the revered patroness of Black Satin, sacrificed to in wild revels and drunken festivals. In less than a century, this group has crept up from the hot southlands to infest Suel courts in Leukish and Radigast City. Beyond these, agents are prominent in Greyhawk and Dyvers, as well.
Black Satin doctrine holds that death is the ultimate ecstacy and that to die in ecstacy is the ultimate sacrifice to the goddess. The most intimate practices of the cult are suitably sensational, lurid and fevered toward this end. The cult continues to grow at a remarkable pace, among both the elites and outcasts of society. Local thieves guilds, unsophisticated by comparison, are displaced by Black Satin in certain trades, as are guilds of assassins and those brokers of information found in every metropolis and court. In most cases, such local groups are infiltrated, co-opted and absorbed. Those not understanding the wisdom of a general and full throated conversion make outstanding sacrifices and examples to others. At least their mingled screams of agony and pleasure are full voiced in praise of the goddess.
WeeJas accepts Black Satin’s devotions as her vanity portfolio begins to grow into something much more vibrant, and sinister. A pretty goddess who wears skulls beckons. Dally with her but a moment or two. It and she are trifling things, you know. Please don’t be upset when the screaming starts. You are in fine voice. _________________ GVD
Black Satin, the Court of Summoners, and the Gray Pardoners are all interesting, though the Black Satin seem a bit unrestrained for the extremely lawful Wee Jas. I'm also dubious of the assertation that "more necromancers venerate WeeJas than Nerull, for WeeJas exacts none of the servitudes or obeisance Nerull demands" for similar reasons -- no few necromancers, IMO, operate outside the bounds of lawful behavior. Whatever obeisance Nerull demands, the reward is freedom from judgement -- absolutely not something Wee Jas will grant.
Furthermore, the role of Syrul, the False Lady, as a patron of witches is dismissed too lightly. Whatever role Iggwilv may play, I find it hard to believe she is of greater influence than the ancient crone goddess of the Suel. That Syrul has influence in the realms of black magic seems hard to question, given that her minions include evil liches and all types of hags, plus most of the creatures usually associated with evil magic -- nightmares, rats, & wolves (topped off with black dragons and evil cloud giants).
Given that this entry is tied to a critical assessment of Wee Jas's treatment in canon lore, it's unclear whether this entry is meant to be an unofficial noncanon version of Wee Jas, or a proposed rewrite/revision/reenvisioning of the canon Wee Jas intended for wider adoption. As the former, it's interesting. As the latter, it falls somewhat short.
Cheers
Nell.
Last edited by Nellisir on Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:06 am; edited 1 time in total
It is illogical that a goddess of vanity does not necessarily exact obeisance from her followers. LE organizations are built on a pecking order. "Wild debauches" do not logically fit with the structured Wee Jas either.
[removes Spock ears]
Black Satin is an interesting idea, but this group would be better suited as being worshippers of Glassya(BoVD). Glassya is LE, but she's cetainly NOT a lady. Wee Jas wears beautiful gowns, not spiked leather teddies. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I like a lot of this post. What GDV is doing reminds me of the creative exchanges we used to have on GT. I think Watcher is right that message boards lack the important immediacy of listserv technology. I wish posts to a full message board like this one could also be sent to people's email via listserv or another software--with reciprocation, so we could post to the mb via email.
Turning to the subject, I have a set of unorganized responses.
First, IMC, witchborn refers to being innately able to cast magic spells. In 3e terms, this includes clerics, druids, bards, sorcerers, and wizards. One's class reflects the discipline one learns to use this ability.
IMC, Iggwilv must be something like a quasi-deity or a hero-goddess--perhaps even a demi-goddess. While I'd prefer not to fix her status, I do so here in order to explain the relationships I create between her, Wee Jas, Syrul, and other powers, demons, and devils.
I'm less familiar with legends about Louhie than about stories of Baba Yaga, so IMC Iggwilv is modeled closer to the latter although I've never detailed her.
Irregardless, Iggwilv regards gods, demons, and devils as of the continuum of being, believing that difference in kind is not impossible to transcend. She invokes them as necessary for her spell-casting and other acts of magic but truly worships nothing outside of herself. In this, she "follows" a tradition that others have walked, including the greatest of the unnamed Ur-Flan, Acererak, Vecna, and Iuz. While the path they walked is not the same, it is related as is that of the conventional quasi-deities, Kelanen, and Zagyg--with this branch tending to have deific sponsors.
IMC, witches in the Flanaess vary greatly--with the term most commonly used (in the Common-vocca) to refer to women spell-casters. Almost any female spellcaster or magical being that is believed to be malign in some way might be called a witch by some people. In contradistinction, there are groups in the Central Flanaess that think of themselves as sisterhoods and sometimes use the term witch.
At the end of the 6th century CY, these groups tend to blend aspects of ancient Suel culture with the fragmentary and obscure traditions of indigenous Flan matriarchal groups. Hardby's Gynarchy is the best known example, but the Witches of the Gnatmarsh form another example, as do the Swanmays of the Gnarley Forest, and the vast majority of the church of Ehlonna (a religion that is not exclusively devoted to Ehlenestra but which also includes clerics of Myhriss, Lirr, Lydia Sotillion and Wenta, and now Mayaheine).
Witches of Wee Jas tend not to be part of this group although some individuals understand their relationship to these groups of women. Instead, witches of Wee Jas tend to be women who combine arcane and divine magical practice, who are affiliated with the organized religion. These women may form covens--but typically only in regions where their religion is proscribed. (Note that my version of the Theocracy of the Pale does not prohibit the religion of Wee Jas. I follow the old 2e product.)
Necromancers, regardless of gender, who worship Wee Jas and receive divine spell-casting from the Ruby Queen, tend only to raise dead in accordance with an obscure set of precepts that are inscrutable to non-initiates. However, there are many necromancers, who pay lip-service to Wee Jas but use arcane magicks to raise dead. Also, Syrul sometimes uses the trappings of Wee Jas to beguile necromancers into believing that they are clerics of Wee Jas. The organized religion of Wee Jas hates this lie, which subverts its dogma (and constitutes one way that Syrul initiates her true clerics).
I like a lot of this post. What GDV is doing reminds me of the creative exchanges we used to have on GT. I think Watcher is right that message boards lack the important immediacy of listserv technology.
Wandering off-topic, I prefer message boards to listservs. I can address the changes at my own pace, and it's easier to sort around through them. That said, these threads are the closest I've found to the legendary AOL boards (and probably slightly better, organizationally), so I'm pretty happy. Creativity is swinging up, which is very cool.
nice work GVD. I'm not sure abou the emerging goddess of love part though. I think that in this area Wee Jas if anything would be mor elinked to the role of marriage - as a goddess of law and tradition...but marriage in the ancient Greek perception - that it is more a contract of business that anything else. I think her Vanity aspect should not be linked or confused with that of a love goddess. I think Phyton is more suited to that role - but again more in a lust versus love role.
I really like and agree with your view of Wee Jas in her role as the goddess of love.
With regards to witches - I read once of a minor goddess of witches and ritual magic, subservient to Wee Jas, called Antaia - does anyone know of this goddess?
With regards to witches - I read once of a minor goddess of witches and ritual magic, subservient to Wee Jas, called Antaia - does anyone know of this goddess?
Antaia is from the book Legions of Hell by Erik Mona and Chris Pramas, a D20 supplement by Green Ronin Publishing. I adapted her, and others from that book, to Greyhawk in the Forgotten Gods of the Suloise part 8: The Devils article here on cf:
Antaia
The Black Witch
LE Infernal Lord of Witches and Ritual Magic
Antaia has a sort of intense friendly rivalry with Wee Jas, who she grudgingly respects as her superior in both rank in the pantheon and in terms of sheer power. She is a matron of sorts to Suloise dabblers in witchcraft, as well as practitioners of the growing art of Ritual Arcane Magic. (As described in Sword & Sorcery Studios' Relics & Rituals, if those options are in use.) The Ruby Queen has forbade Antaia from allowing her followers to establish any sort of formal church, but most formal temples to Wee Jas contain a small Onyx shrine to the Black Witch.
. . . Black Satin seem a bit unrestrained for the extremely lawful Wee Jas. I'm also dubious of the assertation that "more necromancers venerate WeeJas than Nerull, for WeeJas exacts none of the servitudes or obeisance Nerull demands" for similar reasons -- no few necromancers, IMO, operate outside the bounds of lawful behavior. Whatever obeisance Nerull demands, the reward is freedom from judgement -- absolutely not something Wee Jas will grant.
Furthermore, the role of Syrul, the False Lady, as a patron of witches is dismissed too lightly. Whatever role Iggwilv may play, I find it hard to believe she is of greater influence than the ancient crone goddess of the Suel. That Syrul has influence in the realms of black magic seems hard to question, given that her minions include evil liches and all types of hags, plus most of the creatures usually associated with evil magic -- nightmares, rats, & wolves (topped off with black dragons and evil cloud giants).
Given that this entry is tied to a critical assessment of Wee Jas's treatment in canon lore, it's unclear whether this entry is meant to be an unofficial noncanon version of Wee Jas, or a proposed rewrite/revision/reenvisioning of the canon Wee Jas intended for wider adoption. As the former, it's interesting. As the latter, it falls somewhat short.
Cheers
Nell.
(1) A sex death cult is not inherently chaotic. And lawful does not mean unthinking lockstep. "Unrestrained?" Sure. At least around the fringes. As one moves within, matters become much more serious and organized, with a very clear objective. Sex and death my be more often chaotic than not. The business of sex and death may be quite organized.
(2) Obeisance to Nerull involves two things, IMO.
First, you sign on to his agenda for everything dead and he the master of the dead. You work toward his goal. WeeJas demands nothing of the sort. She is not interested in spreading death the way Nerull is, which is reflected in her portfolios. It is thus possible to have more freedom, even venerating a lawful deity than when having to deal with a power-mad, obsessed killer like Nerull. Unless you are also at least an equally power-mad obsessed killer.
I do not see all or even most necromancers that way. My necromancers are best described in the work of Clarke Ashton Smith's stories but even the 2e Guide to Necromancers shatters any idea of all necromancers as obsessively maddened killers. Most necromancers IMO are coldly calculating. Nerull is a sterotyped caricature. IMO.
Second, I was specifically referring to Nerull's bloody rites and the sacrifices, both of the self and others, that are demanded. Nerull is gory in away WeeJas is not and he demands that grue not just from the unfortunates on the alter, but from the necromancers. You must cleave to Nerull in bloody rituals of personal servitude and sacrifice. WeeJas is more temperate in her demands, though they may be as bloody in their way.
Nerull wants obedience. WeeJas wants you to come to her freely. She does not wish unwilling adherants. Law is best advanced if the governed freely give themselves over to the law and thus police themselves. Nerull is unconcerned with law; he is concerned with raw power. WeeJas wants the power of the ages, enduring power that cannot be had through fear or intimidation in the greatest number of cases. Nerull is an immediate threat. WeeJas is a much more longer term threat.
WeeJas will grant freedom. Freedom within her law. Which does not demand, but also does not exclude, either weal or woe but allows both and neither.
(3) Syrul is not mentioned because she does not fit within this particular passion play. Her relationship with WeeJas and Iggwilv is another matter and quite a bit complicated. Her relationship to Boccob and Nerull is all but nonexistant. She is not dismissed but has little relevance among the characters discussed in the configuration of this article. As you note, Syrul's interests extend well beyond humanity. I believe, in a unique way.
(4) The genesis of WeeJas Resurrected was anticipation of the inevitable "Oh, yeah! What would you do different?" That is common enough. This is what I would and do different.
I think WeeJas has great potential that is lost and squandered by the history I have laid out in WeeJas Dissected. Rather than develop a neat figure, the effort has been in making her much less than what she was first imagined as by EGG and Lakofka, and I think for no good reason by later, lesser lights. _________________ GVD
. . .
It is illogical that a goddess of vanity does not necessarily exact obeisance from her followers. LE organizations are built on a pecking order. "Wild debauches" do not logically fit with the structured Wee Jas either.
. . .
Black Satin is an interesting idea, but this group would be better suited as being worshippers of Glassya(BoVD). Glassya is LE, but she's cetainly NOT a lady. Wee Jas wears beautiful gowns, not spiked leather teddies.
The nature of the obeisances is everything. WeeJas' are of an altogether different sort than Nerull's. See my response Nellisir on the point.
"Wild debauches" fit easily within any structure. Your view of law as unflnching and seemingly unfeeling is overly cramped, like the old debate about "lawful awful good" Paladins. Excess and law are not mutually exclusive, nor celebration, even wild celebration. The worshippers are still human and any deity's law must function within the confines of human worshippers.
Chaos may be chained by law and thus, have its place within the law. My first thought turns to the "Red Hour" in the Star Trek Original Series "Last of the Archons," a strictly regimented society that provided for a "chaotic" outburst by including it within the law.
As for WeeJas being more "ladylike" than Glasya because she wears gowns. What can I say? Glasya is merely more obvous. Or you've never partied with WeeJas. Who knew Paris Hilton was such a nice little slut? Looks. Background. Mean little. _________________ GVD
. . . Iggwilv regards gods, demons, and devils as of the continuum of being, believing that difference in kind is not impossible to transcend. She invokes them as necessary for her spell-casting and other acts of magic but truly worships nothing outside of herself. In this, she "follows" a tradition that others have walked, including the greatest of the unnamed Ur-Flan, Acererak, Vecna, and Iuz. While the path they walked is not the same, . . .
witches of Wee Jas tend to be women who combine arcane and divine magical practice, who are affiliated with the organized religion. These women may form covens--but typically only in regions where their religion is proscribed. (Note that my version of the Theocracy of the Pale does not prohibit the religion of Wee Jas. I follow the old 2e product.)
I agree entirely with the quote above about Iggwilv. Could not have said it better. Iggwilv is the ultimate, ultra-competent user.
I see WeeJas as having two types of relationships with witches.
The first is as you describe - divine and arcane spellcasters. These "worship" WeeJas.
The second group are strictly arcane casters or maybe have something of a dark druidic bent in addition to a predominently arcane background. These revere WeeJas, even sacrifice to her, but they fall short of "worship." WeeJas accepts them so long as (1) they are "lawful"in observing certain prescribed rituals and (2) she believes she is moving them toward true "worship" over time. _________________ GVD
I think it would be a mistake to give Wee Jas too broad a base of to her spheres, or more aptly to her various perceived aspects.
To say Wee Jas is has the same power as Nerull, and the same as Boccob, (and the same as Glassya), having the equivalent powers of each of them while remaining distinctly different just degrades any deity with a small number of similar domains. There is simply nothing special about any of them then.
Portraying Wee Jas as a lady in public, and quite something else in private is just plain baseless. There is no canon for wild debauches. I'd think that simply describing Wee Jas in such a way leaps into the realm of chauvinism. Wee Jas apparently only lets Norebo see her in a different light (whether you like that bit of canon or not), but this is probably on her terms. Wee Jas is respected by other lawful gods and creatures, and wears elegant gowns to maintain an aura of respectfulness. Elegance is generally more well received by most than blatant tacky slutiness("Excuse me Pholtus while I put away my latex "gimp" mask and ball gag, and change into something a little bit more...comfortable.") How utterly absurd. I don’t think she “televises” her midnight jaunts with Norebo within the holy fonts of her temples for all to see a' la P.H. style either. She is known as the Lady of Death and Magic. She is not the Chaos comic book character Lady Death. As one of the most beautiful goddesses, she really doesn’t need to “sex-up” her image to attract more followers. I think this is more a result of current comic book and Hollywood themes than anything else. As Wee Jas “upholds law above all else”, using a “holiday of chaotic debauchery within the law” as a reason for the aspects of Black Satin lacks believability. For Wee Jas, there is only Law.
The main reason Wee Jas has been further defined in relation to other gods is so that all of the gods will not be exactly the same. Different gods may have the same domains/spheres of control, but not all of them perceive and make use of them in the same way; either by choice or limitation. And as to relative power based on worshippers, Boccob would be considered a demi-god or lesser god at best, as he has so few true worshipers in comparison to other deities (because he simply doesn’t care or is apathetic towards them). And yet, Boccob is a greater god, which would indicate that he is so grossly powerful that devotional belief or non-belief is as nothing to him, which is apparently not the case with Wee Jas or most other deities for that matter. I’d say that indicates a massive amount of power in relation to any other deity. The only other deities that rival Boccob in this way are Istus and Lendor, but they have their own unique areas of power.
Wee Jas is the equal of Boccob with regards to her influence of magic. They are both greater gods with a primary interest in magic. Early canon mentions no magical specialty for Wee Jas other than knowledge of most spells, arcane or otherwise. Later canon lists her as specializing in the creation of magical items and such. Does this mean that this is all she knows? Of course not. It might be said Boccob knows more about magic items, but that Wee Jas is better at creating them. For Boccob it is all about the quest for magical knowledge, while for Wee Jas it is making the magic manifest. Specialty need not refer to inferiority in either case.
Nerull is an archetypal death god, the "cackling villain" if you choose to pigeon hole him in such a way. Sure, he has that classic “I am DEATH!” look to him, but certainly he is a bit more complicated than that. It is simply that nobody has further developed him or his clergy (this sort of dove-tails into a discussion on the utter lack of development of the Horned Society as well). Wee Jas isn't obviously inferior or superior in that she is "sophisticated" in how she views death (because she sets a few conditions on speaking with and raising the dead), but rather she is simply different in her outlook. Why would Wee Jas set such limitations? For one she doesn't care for chaotic beings so she decides to let them stay dead, as one could conclude that they could potentially ruin her plans upon Oerth purposely or inadvertently. In any event, she doesn’t want to support chaos is such a way, or in any way. Why would she choose to hold on to the souls of the weak? Perhaps it is because they cannot directly influence her causes among the living as well as more powerful individuals can. Even more powerful individuals are limited in how she allows them to be brought back from the dead. Many people have extrapolated from this that Wee Jas actively guards the dead. She keeps them to herself except in very rare cases. There is as much, if not more of a basis for this conclusion as for any other interpretation of her function as a death goddess. As undead fear Wee Jas but must serve at her whim, it is probably not because she is buddy-buddy with them. Rather than have her clergy actively animate dead which binds a portion of the soul into the corpse (and Wee Jas is loathe to allow any soul to return to its body, whatever the case may be), Wee Jas would be more likely to allow her clergy to put to rest such undead. I see the favored(lawful and powerful) dead being allowed to be animated or controlled as guardian spirits for either Wee Jas’ churches or graveyards, so that others might not disturb the rest of the dead. Wee Jas might also allow her clergy to make use of such (lawful) undead to further the goals of Wee Jas. So among the earliest canon sources, it is quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that Wee Jas is more of a guardian death deity than a bringer of death deity, though as a guardian of the dead she is not perceived in the benign way that Anubis is(another guardian death deity). While Wee Jas and Nerull are both death deities, Nerull is a death dealer and takes joy in making things dead while Wee Jas puts her effort into making things [i]stay[/i] dead. They share the same power over the death domain, but exercise it in different ways.
Statistically, I see Boccob as having more wizard levels than Wee Jas, but not by a huge margin. I also see Wee Jas as having twice the cleric levels that Boccob does. This goes to their relative areas of specialty and their spheres of influence. In a solely arcane duel, Boccob has the advantage, but any such duel between to two wouldn’t be solely arcane so this is really irrelevant. I see Nerull and Wee Jas having similar levels in cleric, while Nerull would also have fighter and assassin levels as well. As a bonus, Nerull probably has access to any arcane necromantic magic as well, as long as it is of a destructive sort- it’s his specialty after all. In any event, all are matched fairly evenly across the board. I see this as the basis for the relative power levels for the various rankings of dieites(greater, intermediate, lesser, demi, quasi).
The main point is that by simply describing Wee Jas as implementing her spheres of control in a certain way does not necessarily denote that she is inferior to other gods with access to the same spheres. Each of the gods manifests their influence of the same spheres in different ways (usually based on moral and ethical reasons). This is what at a fundamental level illustrates the differences between deities with similar spheres of control. To have all deities make use of their access to certain spheres of control the same is simply lacking in character. Downgrading Wee Jas to an intermediate deity is a baseless thing, particularly when no reason is given as to why, but describing her as having a specialty so that her emphasis is simply different than that of another god is not. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I think it would be a mistake to give Wee Jas too broad a base of to her spheres, or more aptly to her various perceived aspects.
To say Wee Jas is has the same power as Nerull, and the same as Boccob, (and the same as Glassya), having the equivalent powers of each of them while remaining distinctly different just degrades any deity with a small number of similar domains. There is simply nothing special about any of them then.
I agree with this. I do not suggest that WeeJas be the same as everyone with whom she shares a portfolio or domain. I do think she should be equivalent in terms of greater godhood and rough power/sway/influence. Equivalent, yes. The same, no. By the same token there is a distinction between making her different and doing so by adding crippling limitations to her or her priests. The latter is no goof IMO because it undermines the idea of a rough equivalency in terms of greater godhood.
Cebrion wrote:
Portraying Wee Jas as a lady in public, and quite something else in private is just plain baseless. There is no canon for wild debauches.
There is no canon for such. However, this gets into the "6 WeeJas."
If we look at the EGG/Lakofka WeeJas' you will get absolutelty no argument from me and I will say that Black Satin is entirely inappropriate.
If, however, we look at the "6 WeeJas" then there is a lot more "play" in how things might be viewed. My description of Black Satin was, obviously, abbreviated. There is a more developed version of each of the cults listed that works within the "6 WeeJas." I really hope that we can get back to the EGG/Lakofka WeeJas, however, in what I understand may be a Dragon article. If we must indulge the idiocy of the "6 WeeJas," then I will have a great deal more to say about Black Satin and a host of other matters. I will hope to offer you a more persuasive presentation.
With respect for any public/private dichotomy, that bothers me not at all. There is the Victorian model of morality that comes perhaps most readily to mind but there are a host of others. The WeeJas "mysteries." Again, though, a lot depends on which WeeJas we are speaking of.
Cebrion wrote:
There is no canon for wild debauches. I'd think that simply describing Wee Jas in such a way leaps into the realm of chauvinism.
Absolutely correct. But no one said anything about "orgies." Yet.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas apparently only lets Norebo see her in a different light (whether you like that bit of canon or not), but this is probably on her terms. Wee Jas is respected by other lawful gods and creatures, and wears elegant gowns to maintain an aura of respectfulness. Elegance is generally more well received by most than blatant tacky slutiness("Excuse me Pholtus while I put away my latex "gimp" mask and ball gag, and change into something a little bit more...comfortable.") How utterly absurd. I don’t think she “televises” her midnight jaunts with Norebo within the holy fonts of her temples for all to see a' la P.H. style either.
The whole Norebo thing (which I do not mind) only indicates that there is more than "elegance" and "vanity" there. WeeJas is not frigid. How far beyond that we go depends on which WeeJas we are speaking of.
Cebrion wrote:
She is known as the Lady of Death and Magic. She is not the Chaos comic book character Lady Death. As one of the most beautiful goddesses, she really doesn’t need to “sex-up” her image to attract more followers. I think this is more a result of current comic book and Hollywood themes than anything else.
Again, I think it depends on which WeeJas is which. EGG/Lakofka? No argument. Any of the other four "transformative" WeeJas'? That would depend. Again, I await the Dragon article. If as I suspect, it will largely be crafted in ignorance of "canon," or attempt to "build" upon an already slipping "foundation" of canon, at best, then there will be a field day working yet another chapter in WeeJas' tortured history. I wouldn't see WeeJas as Lady Death but in a world where Dragon gets it wrong, I could see Lady Death like operatives of WeeJas, but then I'm jumping the gun on the Dragon article.
Cebrion wrote:
As Wee Jas “upholds law above all else”, using a “holiday of chaotic debauchery within the law” as a reason for the aspects of Black Satin lacks believability. For Wee Jas, there is only Law.
That was merely an example, not an attempt to justify or rationalize Black Satin beyond what was originally presented, which I think sufficient (I know you disagree) at the moment.
Cebrion wrote:
The main reason Wee Jas has been further defined in relation to other gods is so that all of the gods will not be exactly the same. Different gods may have the same domains/spheres of control, but not all of them perceive and make use of them in the same way; either by choice or limitation.
No argument. It was just done really, really poorly. And I don't see much too debate on that point, what with distinct 6 versions (okay I'll say 5) of the same being.
Cebrion wrote:
And as to relative power based on worshippers, Boccob would be considered a demi-god or lesser god at best, as he has so few true worshipers in comparison to other deities (because he simply doesn’t care or is apathetic towards them). And yet, Boccob is a greater god, which would indicate that he is so grossly powerful that devotional belief or non-belief is as nothing to him, which is apparently not the case with Wee Jas or most other deities for that matter. I’d say that indicates a massive amount of power in relation to any other deity.
I'd say no such thing. There is not one set of rules for Boccob and another set of rules for everybody else. Now, _that_ would make no sense.
Rather, I think it argues that worshippers do not matter to any god's power.
Cebrion wrote:
The only other deities that rival Boccob in this way are Istus and Lendor, but they have their own unique areas of power.
I cannot see it that way so long as there are set categories of divinity. If you and a buddy are in the same category, IMO, you will have a rough equivalency of "power." There is nothing to support "breaking out" a super-set of gods. The closest it comes is pantheon leadership and that is mostly "unofficial" in terms of relative "power." Boccob is not Mystra and he is not Ao from FR.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas is the equal of Boccob with regards to her influence of magic. They are both greater gods with a primary interest in magic. Early canon mentions no magical specialty for Wee Jas other than knowledge of most spells, arcane or otherwise.
If we stop right there, it's Miller time! And I'm buying. Better than Miller, too.
Cebrion wrote:
Later canon lists her as specializing in the creation of magical items and such. Does this mean that this is all she knows? Of course not. It might be said Boccob knows more about magic items, but that Wee Jas is better at creating them. For Boccob it is all about the quest for magical knowledge, while for Wee Jas it is making the magic manifest. Specialty need not refer to inferiority in either case.
I agree, unfortunately later canon is tortured/conflicting and, in any case, it does not make clear what you make clear. Later canon reads as sharply limiting WeeJas.
Cebrion wrote:
Nerull is an archetypal death god, the "cackling villain" if you choose to pigeon hole him in such a way. Sure, he has that classic “I am DEATH!” look to him, but certainly he is a bit more complicated than that. It is simply that nobody has further developed him or his clergy (this sort of dove-tails into a discussion on the utter lack of development of the Horned Society as well).
No argument.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas isn't obviously inferior or superior in that she is "sophisticated" in how she views death (because she sets a few conditions on speaking with and raising the dead), but rather she is simply different in her outlook. Why would Wee Jas set such limitations? For one she doesn't care for chaotic beings so she decides to let them stay dead, as one could conclude that they could potentially ruin her plans upon Oerth purposely or inadvertently. In any event, she doesn’t want to support chaos is such a way, or in any way. Why would she choose to hold on to the souls of the weak? Perhaps it is because they cannot directly influence her causes among the living as well as more powerful individuals can. Even more powerful individuals are limited in how she allows them to be brought back from the dead. Many people have extrapolated from this that Wee Jas actively guards the dead. She keeps them to herself except in very rare cases. There is as much, if not more of a basis for this conclusion as for any other interpretation of her function as a death goddess. As undead fear Wee Jas but must serve at her whim, it is probably not because she is buddy-buddy with them. Rather than have her clergy actively animate dead which binds a portion of the soul into the corpse (and Wee Jas is loathe to allow any soul to return to its body, whatever the case may be), Wee Jas would be more likely to allow her clergy to put to rest such undead. I see the favored(lawful and powerful) dead being allowed to be animated or controlled as guardian spirits for either Wee Jas’ churches or graveyards, so that others might not disturb the rest of the dead. Wee Jas might also allow her clergy to make use of such (lawful) undead to further the goals of Wee Jas. So among the earliest canon sources, it is quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that Wee Jas is more of a guardian death deity than a bringer of death deity, though as a guardian of the dead she is not perceived in the benign way that Anubis is(another guardian death deity). While Wee Jas and Nerull are both death deities, Nerull is a death dealer and takes joy in making things dead while Wee Jas puts her effort into making things [i]stay[/i] dead. They share the same power over the death domain, but exercise it in different ways.
I am not saying that the limitations are not without some possible reasoned basis but rather that the meta-game consequence is a very real limitation on WeeJas' presentation as a deity, particularely when compared to Nerull (and Boccob). We can (with enough effort, give or take) rationalize almost anything in the game. The meta-game effects, however, put the lie to any notion that we have done nothing more than make WeeJas "distinct." The meta-game consequences reveal a diminished deity.
Cebrion wrote:
Statistically, I see Boccob as having more wizard levels than Wee Jas, but not by a huge margin. I also see Wee Jas as having twice the cleric levels that Boccob does. This goes to their relative areas of specialty and their spheres of influence. In a solely arcane duel, Boccob has the advantage, but any such duel between to two wouldn’t be solely arcane so this is really irrelevant. I see Nerull and Wee Jas having similar levels in cleric, while Nerull would also have fighter and assassin levels as well. As a bonus, Nerull probably has access to any arcane necromantic magic as well, as long as it is of a destructive sort- it’s his specialty after all. In any event, all are matched fairly evenly across the board. I see this as the basis for the relative power levels for the various rankings of dieites(greater, intermediate, lesser, demi, quasi).
Avatars are part of the game. I really dislike them, however, precisely for the "definations" they may be percieved to "provide" and the tendency to "who would win" type stuff. That said, I have no real issue with what you have described. I am more concerned with classification (greater deity etc.) and practical limitations that may belie any classification.
Cebrion wrote:
The main point is that by simply describing Wee Jas as implementing her spheres of control in a certain way does not necessarily denote that she is inferior to other gods with access to the same spheres. Each of the gods manifests their influence of the same spheres in different ways (usually based on moral and ethical reasons). This is what at a fundamental level illustrates the differences between deities with similar spheres of control. To have all deities make use of their access to certain spheres of control the same is simply lacking in character.
I agree, so long as this thinking is not undercut by meta-game realities/practicalities that reveal a sharply lesser or diminished result.
Cebrion wrote:
Downgrading Wee Jas to an intermediate deity is a baseless thing, particularly when no reason is given as to why, but describing her as having a specialty so that her emphasis is simply different than that of another god is not.
I agree. The speciality needs to be specialization, not limitation, however. I do not think we have a huge disagreement but rather a very bridgeable one. Too bad we didn't have a hand in WeeJas' 3 through 6.
Thank you for your well thought out response. _________________ GVD
I think it would be a mistake to give Wee Jas too broad a base of to her spheres, or more aptly to her various perceived aspects.
To say Wee Jas is has the same power as Nerull, and the same as Boccob, (and the same as Glassya), having the equivalent powers of each of them while remaining distinctly different just degrades any deity with a small number of similar domains. There is simply nothing special about any of them then.
I agree with this. I do not suggest that WeeJas be the same as everyone with whom she shares a portfolio or domain. I do think she should be equivalent in terms of greater godhood and rough power/sway/influence. Equivalent, yes. The same, no. By the same token there is a distinction between making her different and doing so by adding crippling limitations to her or her priests. The latter is no goof IMO because it undermines the idea of a rough equivalency in terms of greater godhood.
Cebrion wrote:
Portraying Wee Jas as a lady in public, and quite something else in private is just plain baseless. There is no canon for wild debauches.
There is no canon for such. However, this gets into the "6 WeeJas."
If we look at the EGG/Lakofka WeeJas' you will get absolutelty no argument from me and I will say that Black Satin is entirely inappropriate.
If, however, we look at the "6 WeeJas" then there is a lot more "play" in how things might be viewed. My description of Black Satin was, obviously, abbreviated. There is a more developed version of each of the cults listed that works within the "6 WeeJas." I really hope that we can get back to the EGG/Lakofka WeeJas, however, in what I understand may be a Dragon article. If we must indulge the idiocy of the "6 WeeJas," then I will have a great deal more to say about Black Satin and a host of other matters. I will hope to offer you a more persuasive presentation.
With respect for any public/private dichotomy, that bothers me not at all. There is the Victorian model of morality that comes perhaps most readily to mind but there are a host of others. The WeeJas "mysteries." Again, though, a lot depends on which WeeJas we are speaking of.
Cebrion wrote:
There is no canon for wild debauches. I'd think that simply describing Wee Jas in such a way leaps into the realm of chauvinism.
Absolutely correct. But no one said anything about "orgies." Yet.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas apparently only lets Norebo see her in a different light (whether you like that bit of canon or not), but this is probably on her terms. Wee Jas is respected by other lawful gods and creatures, and wears elegant gowns to maintain an aura of respectfulness. Elegance is generally more well received by most than blatant tacky slutiness("Excuse me Pholtus while I put away my latex "gimp" mask and ball gag, and change into something a little bit more...comfortable.") How utterly absurd. I don’t think she “televises” her midnight jaunts with Norebo within the holy fonts of her temples for all to see a' la P.H. style either.
The whole Norebo thing (which I do not mind) only indicates that there is more than "elegance" and "vanity" there. WeeJas is not frigid. How far beyond that we go depends on which WeeJas we are speaking of.
Cebrion wrote:
She is known as the Lady of Death and Magic. She is not the Chaos comic book character Lady Death. As one of the most beautiful goddesses, she really doesn’t need to “sex-up” her image to attract more followers. I think this is more a result of current comic book and Hollywood themes than anything else.
Again, I think it depends on which WeeJas is which. EGG/Lakofka? No argument. Any of the other four "transformative" WeeJas'? That would depend. Again, I await the Dragon article. If as I suspect, it will largely be crafted in ignorance of "canon," or attempt to "build" upon an already slipping "foundation" of canon, at best, then there will be a field day working yet another chapter in WeeJas' tortured history. I wouldn't see WeeJas as Lady Death but in a world where Dragon gets it wrong, I could see Lady Death like operatives of WeeJas, but then I'm jumping the gun on the Dragon article.
Cebrion wrote:
As Wee Jas “upholds law above all else”, using a “holiday of chaotic debauchery within the law” as a reason for the aspects of Black Satin lacks believability. For Wee Jas, there is only Law.
That was merely an example, not an attempt to justify or rationalize Black Satin beyond what was originally presented, which I think sufficient (I know you disagree) at the moment.
Cebrion wrote:
The main reason Wee Jas has been further defined in relation to other gods is so that all of the gods will not be exactly the same. Different gods may have the same domains/spheres of control, but not all of them perceive and make use of them in the same way; either by choice or limitation.
No argument. It was just done really, really poorly. And I don't see much too debate on that point, what with distinct 6 versions (okay I'll say 5) of the same being.
Cebrion wrote:
And as to relative power based on worshippers, Boccob would be considered a demi-god or lesser god at best, as he has so few true worshipers in comparison to other deities (because he simply doesn’t care or is apathetic towards them). And yet, Boccob is a greater god, which would indicate that he is so grossly powerful that devotional belief or non-belief is as nothing to him, which is apparently not the case with Wee Jas or most other deities for that matter. I’d say that indicates a massive amount of power in relation to any other deity.
I'd say no such thing. There is not one set of rules for Boccob and another set of rules for everybody else. Now, _that_ would make no sense.
Rather, I think it argues that worshippers do not matter to any god's power.
Cebrion wrote:
The only other deities that rival Boccob in this way are Istus and Lendor, but they have their own unique areas of power.
I cannot see it that way so long as there are set categories of divinity. If you and a buddy are in the same category, IMO, you will have a rough equivalency of "power." There is nothing to support "breaking out" a super-set of gods. The closest it comes is pantheon leadership and that is mostly "unofficial" in terms of relative "power." Boccob is not Mystra and he is not Ao from FR.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas is the equal of Boccob with regards to her influence of magic. They are both greater gods with a primary interest in magic. Early canon mentions no magical specialty for Wee Jas other than knowledge of most spells, arcane or otherwise.
If we stop right there, it's Miller time! And I'm buying. Better than Miller, too.
Cebrion wrote:
Later canon lists her as specializing in the creation of magical items and such. Does this mean that this is all she knows? Of course not. It might be said Boccob knows more about magic items, but that Wee Jas is better at creating them. For Boccob it is all about the quest for magical knowledge, while for Wee Jas it is making the magic manifest. Specialty need not refer to inferiority in either case.
I agree, unfortunately later canon is tortured/conflicting and, in any case, it does not make clear what you make clear. Later canon reads as sharply limiting WeeJas.
Cebrion wrote:
Nerull is an archetypal death god, the "cackling villain" if you choose to pigeon hole him in such a way. Sure, he has that classic “I am DEATH!” look to him, but certainly he is a bit more complicated than that. It is simply that nobody has further developed him or his clergy (this sort of dove-tails into a discussion on the utter lack of development of the Horned Society as well).
No argument.
Cebrion wrote:
Wee Jas isn't obviously inferior or superior in that she is "sophisticated" in how she views death (because she sets a few conditions on speaking with and raising the dead), but rather she is simply different in her outlook. Why would Wee Jas set such limitations? For one she doesn't care for chaotic beings so she decides to let them stay dead, as one could conclude that they could potentially ruin her plans upon Oerth purposely or inadvertently. In any event, she doesn’t want to support chaos is such a way, or in any way. Why would she choose to hold on to the souls of the weak? Perhaps it is because they cannot directly influence her causes among the living as well as more powerful individuals can. Even more powerful individuals are limited in how she allows them to be brought back from the dead. Many people have extrapolated from this that Wee Jas actively guards the dead. She keeps them to herself except in very rare cases. There is as much, if not more of a basis for this conclusion as for any other interpretation of her function as a death goddess. As undead fear Wee Jas but must serve at her whim, it is probably not because she is buddy-buddy with them. Rather than have her clergy actively animate dead which binds a portion of the soul into the corpse (and Wee Jas is loathe to allow any soul to return to its body, whatever the case may be), Wee Jas would be more likely to allow her clergy to put to rest such undead. I see the favored(lawful and powerful) dead being allowed to be animated or controlled as guardian spirits for either Wee Jas’ churches or graveyards, so that others might not disturb the rest of the dead. Wee Jas might also allow her clergy to make use of such (lawful) undead to further the goals of Wee Jas. So among the earliest canon sources, it is quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that Wee Jas is more of a guardian death deity than a bringer of death deity, though as a guardian of the dead she is not perceived in the benign way that Anubis is(another guardian death deity). While Wee Jas and Nerull are both death deities, Nerull is a death dealer and takes joy in making things dead while Wee Jas puts her effort into making things [i]stay[/i] dead. They share the same power over the death domain, but exercise it in different ways.
I am not saying that the limitations are not without some possible reasoned basis but rather that the meta-game consequence is a very real limitation on WeeJas' presentation as a deity, particularely when compared to Nerull (and Boccob). We can (with enough effort, give or take) rationalize almost anything in the game. The meta-game effects, however, put the lie to any notion that we have done nothing more than make WeeJas "distinct." The meta-game consequences reveal a diminished deity.
Cebrion wrote:
Statistically, I see Boccob as having more wizard levels than Wee Jas, but not by a huge margin. I also see Wee Jas as having twice the cleric levels that Boccob does. This goes to their relative areas of specialty and their spheres of influence. In a solely arcane duel, Boccob has the advantage, but any such duel between to two wouldn’t be solely arcane so this is really irrelevant. I see Nerull and Wee Jas having similar levels in cleric, while Nerull would also have fighter and assassin levels as well. As a bonus, Nerull probably has access to any arcane necromantic magic as well, as long as it is of a destructive sort- it’s his specialty after all. In any event, all are matched fairly evenly across the board. I see this as the basis for the relative power levels for the various rankings of dieites(greater, intermediate, lesser, demi, quasi).
Avatars are part of the game. I really dislike them, however, precisely for the "definations" they may be percieved to "provide" and the tendency to "who would win" type stuff. That said, I have no real issue with what you have described. I am more concerned with classification (greater deity etc.) and practical limitations that may belie any classification.
Cebrion wrote:
The main point is that by simply describing Wee Jas as implementing her spheres of control in a certain way does not necessarily denote that she is inferior to other gods with access to the same spheres. Each of the gods manifests their influence of the same spheres in different ways (usually based on moral and ethical reasons). This is what at a fundamental level illustrates the differences between deities with similar spheres of control. To have all deities make use of their access to certain spheres of control the same is simply lacking in character.
I agree, so long as this thinking is not undercut by meta-game realities/practicalities that reveal a sharply lesser or diminished result.
Cebrion wrote:
Downgrading Wee Jas to an intermediate deity is a baseless thing, particularly when no reason is given as to why, but describing her as having a specialty so that her emphasis is simply different than that of another god is not.
I agree. The speciality needs to be specialization, not limitation, however. I do not think we have a huge disagreement but rather a very bridgeable one. Too bad we didn't have a hand in WeeJas' 3 through 6.
Thank you for your well thought out response. _________________ GVD
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Who knew Paris Hilton was such a nice little slut? Looks. Background. Mean little.
How utterly absurd. I don’t think she “televises” her midnight jaunts with Norebo within the holy fonts of her temples for all to see a' la P.H. style either. 
She is known as the Lady of Death and Magic. She is not the Chaos comic book character Lady Death. As one of the most beautiful goddesses, she really doesn’t need to “sex-up” her image to attract more followers. I think this is more a result of current comic book and Hollywood themes than anything else. As Wee Jas “upholds law above all else”, using a “holiday of chaotic debauchery within the law” as a reason for the aspects of Black Satin lacks believability. For Wee Jas, there is only Law.
