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    Canonfire :: View topic - Canonfire Annual/Best Of
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Canonfire Annual/Best Of
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


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    Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:29 am  
    Canonfire Annual/Best Of

    Hi there, Smile

    What would people think about a Canonfire "Annual?"

    What I'm imaginging is a once a year, opportunity for CF members to contribute a single new work or article to be collected in a Canonfire Annual.

    Unlike a postfest, contributors could write on whatever they pleased. Whatever tickled them pink. A sort of personal "best of."

    It would be an "annual" (say compiled each November?) as a PDF like the Oerth Journal. So, there would be a 2005 Canonfire Annual, a 2006, a 2007 etc.

    It would be like a scrapbook or yearbook of Canonfire for that year.

    Like some people have their yearbooks from highschool or college signed by friends and classmates, you would "sign" the Canonfire Annual by submitting one new creative work or article.

    What do people think? Thoughts?
    _________________
    GVD
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2584
    From: Ullinois

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    Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:32 pm  

    Not bad, any reason to write new material is good, makes me wonder, did they stop doing annuals for Dragon?

    Anyhoo, for a true yearbook-best of at CF. Contributing authors should give permission for a compilation of their favorite article published for that year. That way some of the best articles wouldn't be buried in a category on the topics page they'd be neatly tied together in a PDF much like the OJ's as you mentioned. New/ Old, I'm game either ways! Happy
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

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    Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:17 pm  

    I actually mentioned this a few times at greytalk. Acompilation of the best from that year would be great. Or perhaps getting some of the old articles revisted in either a module format or additional game notes on these articles from this years best. I'll throw in my two cents.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 12, 2001
    Posts: 188
    From: Hanover Park

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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:06 am  
    An excellent point!

    >I actually mentioned this a few times at greytalk. [snipped]

    Greytalk contributions should definitely be included in such a compilation Greytalk and Canonfire may be different in format, but any other differences are purely artificial. They are, and should be seen as, two faces of the same body of fans.

    I too like the concept of a "Best of" compilation. Perhaps even one called "Best of Greyhawk Fandom" and drawn from a larger pool than even Canonfire and Greytalk combined.

    A compilation of new material, like the postfests, too often becomes a pot luck of varying quality. Peer review would be essential for rating publications for inclusion. Speaking of rating...Canonfire's rating system would be useful in that regard, though obviously articles drawn from outside Canonfire would not benefit from such a system. Perhaps a poll would be held annually for best non-Canonfire articles online -- regardless of address -- that should be considered for inclusion?

    ~Scott C.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:55 am  

    Please note there are two distinct ways of approaching this -

    (1) New material produced specifically for the "Annual," see my post above; and

    (2) A compilation of preexisting material already submitted to CF in a given year.

    I personally favor Option 1 - entirely new material.

    I do not favor Option 2 - compilation. I do not favor a compilation because a) it has already been seen within the past year, b) there is the question of who chooses and c) no one who has not already submitted material is encouraged or allowed to do so.

    My hope would be, in the line of "signing the Annual/Yearbook," more people who have not as yet sent in a submission might think to do so under Option 1 - new material.
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:03 pm  
    Re: An excellent point!

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    Greytalk contributions should definitely be included in such a compilation Greytalk and Canonfire may be different in format, but any other differences are purely artificial.
    ~Scott C.


    Meaning no disrespect to you, Scott, or anyone else who has tried to meaningfully contribute to Greytalk in the last 2-3 years - I disageee.

    Greytalk is all but dead. It is home mainly to flamewars over content theft. Where once it may have been host to vital GH discussions, it is now home to flames, off topic posts, odd rants and the pursuit of "wild geese" of one feather or another. Greytalk is like the old AOL GH folder, except Greytalk has not had the good sense to go quietly into the night. Instead, like a senile senior citizen with both Parkinson's disease and Tourets Syndrome it dodders on in its bathrobe and slippers, living on past glories no longer in evidence in the recent or even mid-term past.

    Greytalk is dead in any meaningful sense. It should be closed down and its participants should be encouraged to participate in Canonfire, or banned from CF, as the case may be in the worst cases.

    The day of Greytalk has passed. It is fondly remembered but is not just an embarrassment to Greyhawk fandom.

    Long live CANONFIRE!
    _________________
    GVD
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 2:21 pm  

    Honestly, I'd like to see both. The best of CF could be a one time thing to catch up to date, then we could easily use GVD's idea from there on in.

    GVD> GH isn't dead, its just suffering a mid-life crisis. Though the colorful analogy was quite amusing!
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
    Posts: 165
    From: Seattle

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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:00 pm  

    GVD wrote:
    Greytalk is all but dead. It is home mainly to flamewars over content theft. Where once it may have been host to vital GH discussions, it is now home to flames, off topic posts, odd rants and the pursuit of "wild geese" of one feather or another.


    Er, wasn't this stuff always a big part of Greytalk? Wink

    Seriously, I respectfully disagree. I've seen very poor behavior here on Canonfire as well, and I've gotten great ideas and replies from Greytalk within the past month. I find them both to be good resources, though I agree with Duicarthan about the mid-life crisis. Smile

    IMHO, what really should be done is that the powers that be for Canonfire, Greytalk, and the OJ should sit down and talk (I think 2 out of 3 of those are Gary, but still...). I think it would be in the best interest of all Greyhawkers if each of these resources had more of a direction.

    Totally off the top of my head, and there's obviously a lot of overlap:

    - For quick answers to questions, news items, product discussions and FYIs, or general discussion, use Greytalk. Maybe use the weekly Greyhawk chats for running rough drafts by folks before submission elsewhere.
    - Canonfire would largely remain as it is.
    - The OJ would maybe become a place for larger projects, whether we're talking a coordinated effort like the Gran March project (just a random example of a big project), a join-authorship like several articles from the new issue, or maybe a series of inter-related articles, drawing on elements of each other to provide a larger view.

    Again, that's just a rough suggestion. Maybe I should have presented that at the weekly chat...

    But now to get back on track for this thread, I'd love to see a Best Of. I've got a whopping 3 submissions under my belt, but I'd love to see what other can come up with (or what they already came up with that I missed).
    _________________
    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:26 pm  

    basiliv wrote:
    Er, wasn't this stuff always a big part of Greytalk? Wink

    Seriously, I respectfully disagree. I've seen very poor behavior here on Canonfire as well, and I've gotten great ideas and replies from Greytalk within the past month. I find them both to be good resources, though I agree with Duicarthan about the mid-life crisis. Smile

    IMHO, what really should be done is that the powers that be for Canonfire, Greytalk, and the OJ should sit down and talk (I think 2 out of 3 of those are Gary, but still...). I think it would be in the best interest of all Greyhawkers if each of these resources had more of a direction.

    Totally off the top of my head, and there's obviously a lot of overlap:

    - For quick answers to questions, news items, product discussions and FYIs, or general discussion, use Greytalk. Maybe use the weekly Greyhawk chats for running rough drafts by folks before submission elsewhere.
    - Canonfire would largely remain as it is.
    - The OJ would maybe become a place for larger projects, whether we're talking a coordinated effort like the Gran March project (just a random example of a big project), a join-authorship like several articles from the new issue, or maybe a series of inter-related articles, drawing on elements of each other to provide a larger view.

    Again, that's just a rough suggestion. Maybe I should have presented that at the weekly chat...

    But now to get back on track for this thread, I'd love to see a Best Of. I've got a whopping 3 submissions under my belt, but I'd love to see what other can come up with (or what they already came up with that I missed).


    I have never seen flames the like of Greytalk on Canonfire. Canonfire flames are brief magnesium flares. Wink Greytalk flames are like a gasoline fueled tire fire - hot flames amidst plumes of obscuring black smoke that smells to high heaven. And the dang thing just won't go out! Shocked

    Greytalk also has some of the sleeziest posters this side Steve Busceme. Although they all may be one in the same if the rumors are true.

    In any event, Greytalk duplicates the function of the CF message boards but less efficiently. GT and CF are redundent of each other. Just merge GT with CF, banning the worst GT offenders. I think most GTers with no GT would move to CF with fair ease. Scottenkainen is a good example.

    GT by its mere existence hurts CF and keeps it from greater heights. GT goes emplty for days but there are GTers who post nowhere else in devotion to what once a premier GH site. Now, GT is just an embarrassment - Greyhawk's tire fire. Confused

    Back on track - Cool

    I think both versions of the Annual have some support and merit.

    I think the most immediately workable or implementable is the "new" Annual.

    I think there are more questions that would need to be worked on in the case of a "reprint" "Best Of."

    I guess it is up to the Admins.

    I'd like to hear from more Canonfirees, however. Maybe people who have not yet submitted any articles? Thoughts?

    Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 12, 2001
    Posts: 188
    From: Hanover Park

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:33 pm  
    Greytalk Never Dies!

    First off, "GVD", I just don't see the point of a "best of" volume of new material based on contributors' sense of best. Very few people have the time to contribute fan material to Canonfire or elsewhere and still hold back something else they think is extra special -- and the Oerth Journal is already where those extra special articles should be going.

    Jim has spelled out an elegant solution. So much of what gets discussed on this messageboard could easily be moved over to Greytalk. It could be used for peer reviewing Canonfire and Oerth Journal submissions before publication. The Canonfire messageboards, if kept at all, could be seriously pared down and wouldn't become so cluttered in the future.

    Canonfire would be the heretics' realm for individual interpretations of Greyhawk. Oerth Journal would be the home of a fan-based canon. Greytalk would be the support forum -- the solid base on which the others stand.

    It's clear that you feel more loyal to Canonfire than Greytalk, "GVD." Whether this colors your perception of messageboards or your perception has always been that messageboards are better for organization and retrieval -- not opinions shared by all -- remains to be seen.

    ~Scott C.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:08 pm  
    Re: Greytalk Never Dies!

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    First off, "GVD", I just don't see the point of a "best of" volume of new material based on contributors' sense of best. Very few people have the time to contribute fan material to Canonfire or elsewhere and still hold back something else they think is extra special -- and the Oerth Journal is already where those extra special articles should be going.


    I need to back up and regroup as I think you misunderstand me or I was not clear.

    I suggested -
    "Please note there are two distinct ways of approaching this -

    (1) New material produced specifically for the "Annual," see my post above; and

    (2) A compilation of preexisting material already submitted to CF in a given year."

    Option 1 is the "Annual" approach.

    Option 2 is the "Best Of" approach.

    The material produced for Option 1 is not necessarily "something else they think is extra special." Its more like signing the highschool yearbook. My thought was it might encourage more people to contribute topical submissions who have not done so to this point. Surely, that is not a bad idea. If it is a "best of," it is a personal "best," as in "my best to Canonfire, here is my contribution to the Annual."

    The material that would be collected in Option 2 is more the "BEST OF" in all caps. It is a more judged thing, which is why I beleve it cannot be easily implemented, because the judging criteria would be open to discussion. And first time submitters would be excluded.

    Please understand, in my original post I was tossing out ideas for discussion that arose out of last week's Greychat. I did not have a formed plan, although now I do favor Option 1. I apologize if I confused matters.

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    So much of what gets discussed on this messageboard could easily be moved over to Greytalk. It could be used for peer reviewing Canonfire and Oerth Journal submissions before publication. The Canonfire messageboards, if kept at all, could be seriously pared down and wouldn't become so cluttered in the future.


    The reverse is even more true. Greytalk could be shuttered and the discussion moved here. Canonfire has the ability to host multiple folders. One could even be called Greytalk, I suppose, if there is value in keeping the name around. Same goes for peer reviews. CF just opens a new folder. Greytalk is just a mailing list. Canonfire is far more flexible.

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    Canonfire would be the heretics' realm for individual interpretations of Greyhawk. Oerth Journal would be the home of a fan-based canon. Greytalk would be the support forum -- the solid base on which the others stand.


    Canonfire relegated to a "heretics' realm?" Charitably - "I don't think so."

    The heirarchy you suggest would enshrine inefficiency. CF can do everything GT can do and it can do it better and it can do more things besides. GT is just redundent.

    The Oerth Journal is a different matter. However, its publication schedule issues would need to be addressed before its role could, I think, be fairly or fully considered.

    Scottenkainen wrote:
    It's clear that you feel more loyal to Canonfire than Greytalk, "GVD." Whether this colors your perception of messageboards or your perception has always been that messageboards are better for organization and retrieval -- not opinions shared by all -- remains to be seen.

    ~Scott C.


    Actually Scott, "loyalty" has nothing to do with it. The word you want is "practicality."

    I joined the GH online fan community August 14, 2004. I'm a newbie with not yet a year under my belt. As such, I came to the GH community with open eyes. Guess what I saw?

    You don't have to guess. It is available for anyone to see.

    Greytalk's archive speaks volumes about it. Weeks with no posts. Then a sudden flame war occassioned by the same person(people) on virtually the same grounds that burns for months. If I am missing the "secret" "wonderful" Greytalk please point it out to me. I'm just a newbie, after all. Happy But this newbie can read. In 3 years of posts, Greytalk has become either vacant or a pit far more often than anything actually germane to Greyhawk. Please. Show me how I'm missing something. Embarassed

    Then. Let's look at Canonfire. What you see is ever increasing participation. Happy The numbers are readily available to all members, just click on Eyeballs (Detailed Statistics). Here are the numbers -

    2002 - 253631 Views
    2003 - 417970 Views
    2004 - 836665 Views
    2005 - 835705 Views

    Two things jump out at you. First, CF is almost doubling its views every year. Second, in 2005 CF is on pace to double 2004 numbers to approx 1,600,000 views - in a single year!

    You can chart topical submissions the same way and posts, but the numbers would not be as dramatic.

    "Loyalty?" No. Practicality. In the same time period, Greytalk has sunk lower and lower into silence or sleeze.

    Canonfire is the superior product and demonstrably so. If there is a question of "loyalty" it is your loyalty to Greytalk _despite_ the fact that it is CF that is on the grow.

    Is Greytalk just in a "phase?" Let's check back in a year shall we? I believe Greytalk has demonstrated a fundamental inability to generate sustained conversations. Shall we test that theory? Lets. Happy

    "GVD" Please. Call me Glenn. Cool
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    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
    Posts: 165
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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:54 pm  

    IIRC, the main flame war of late was regarding a very valid issue of IP/Copyright rights which were violated again and again by the same individual. Since you're new to the Greyhawk online community, I can understand it seeming like a silly flamewar to you. But having personally been on Greytalk since 96 or 97 I've seen the work in question as it's been posted, and I've seen several incidents. I can attest that all evidence suggests it happened repeatedly and the only change in the pattern is the effort made to cover tracks. I think newbies should be forewarned, and the guilty party did not take things lying down...and you know the rest. I stayed out of it on Greytalk simply because I felt no need to fuel the fire. Several people even tried to post creative material amid the heated emails, and I find that commendable.

    Greyhawk fans are pissy -- I could point out many examples in the forums, but I'm sure you can recall plenty of examples yourself. Been that way for years, I'd be amazed if it changed now.

    Egos are apparently fragile things, who knew? Wink

    So, obviously, I'd be opposed to Greytalk being disbanded. I've had success there when posing suggestions or questions that met with nothing but cricket chirps here in the forums. I don't think that it's ever a bad thing to provide folks with choices.

    But what I would really love to see happen is to ban folks from the Greytalk list if they consistantly fail to behave themselves. Smile
    _________________
    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 464
    From: Ithaca, New York

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:39 pm  

    I'll be darned if I know why I still speak about the OJ....

    First off, I've signed onto and off of Greytalk three times over the years so far. I much prefer messageboards; it's much easier to sift out the chatter.

    Second off, while I'd still like to see the article comments combined with the messageboards, I think CF! is pretty fine overall. It's the place for Greyhawk on the web. 'Nuff said.

    Third off, the Oerth Journal doesn't get as many submissions as you think it does. Never has.

    Do you care about the future of the Oerth Journal? I'm starting a thread on its future on the OJ forum. Bring your ideas.

    Cheers
    Nell.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 12, 2001
    Posts: 188
    From: Hanover Park

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:47 pm  
    Ah, thanks!

    >"GVD" Please. Call me Glenn

    Good to know, Glenn. Being an ornery old-timer, I found chat names amusing eight years ago when I started going by Volstagg (and Vinge's "True Names" was still fresh in my memory), but nowadays they just annoy me. I like to "know" who I'm talking to.

    ~Scott C. (and sometimes still Scottenkainen)
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:32 pm  

    Mailing lists have certain values, but they will never reach the number of people that a well run forum will, especially if the forum is part of a site that is valuable in its own right.

    I don't see any particular reason to close down Greytalk if there are still people interested in it. But the idea of shifting content from CF to GT is pretty silly, IMHO. Why would you want to take discussion from a more public to a less public venue?
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