Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Canon charge!
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Canon charge!
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:11 am  
    Canon charge!

    Greetings Greyhawkers!

    Iíve been a long-time lurker on these boards content to soak up the good ideas floating around here for my own Greyhawk campaign(s). I havenít exactly felt the need to express my own views on these boards but the recent (and heated) discussions on the Greyhawk canon thread prompts me to take voice. First, three caveats: 1) The other thread got locked due to personal attacks and thread hijacking so please be careful how you respond in this thread, 2) Iím an old-school Greyhawk fan and probably terribly biased, take that into account if you will, 3) itís a long post.

    Whenever Greyhawk canon is discussed there is bound to come a lot of heat. Many threads have resulted in pointless bickering and tedious arguments about obscure trivia. Thereís also a lot of history in the community that allows for long-time enmity or rivalry. Not a pretty picture! Iíd like for us Hawkers to tone it down a little for the good of the setting but I canít do that! Why not? you might ask. Well, simply because there isnít any ONE setting anymore.

    A long, long time ago, during the early 70ís there was one Greyhawk campaign and that was Garyís own campaign that sprung from the castle and city of the same name. In that campaign Gary ruled with sole authority, at least until Kuntz got to be co-DM. From the events in that campaign came a lot of well-known dungeons and adventures that later would make it into the series of AD&D modules. But this Greyhawk is a far cry from what we, the fans, think of when we discuss Greyhawk. The geography is completely different, as well as a bit hazy away from the City of Greyhawk, and the while some PCs worshipped the Blinding Light and He of the Cudgel other deities were Thor, Odin and Zeus. All the cool gods and demon lords we are familiar with seemed to be trapped by Zagyg! (or was it still Zagig at this time?) This campaign setting is still mostly hidden from us and unless we get to game with Gary we will never experience it!

    Then with the advent of the 1980 folio and the box of í83 something fantastic happened Ė we, the players of AD&D, finally got our very own campaign world to shape and craft as we wanted to. Gary indeed urged us to make it our own. He didnít seem to mind since very little of his own campaign had been transported to this new world. That didnít hinder it from quickly becoming a labor of love. Gary was obviously very fond of his creation and it didnít take many years before those who played in his home campaign thought in terms of the published world rather than the one Gary had started with. It seems that they even started using Darleneís maps! This new campaign was very open and allowed for a lot of tinkering for all the eager DMís out there. And here were all the reasons for loving it, summed up by NiteScreed pretty nicely. Gary gave us a few additions to the world by more modules and a few articles in Dragon and everything associated with Greyhawk had to have Garyís stamp of approval. Everything! And it was at this time that the published campaign was at its most coherent state. Every DM could take the ball and run with it, including killing Iuz or freeing Thrommel. How Gary would have handled Thrommel in future products would have been interesting but he was ousted from the company, finally getting thrown out of his own office with all his material locked away! Ouch!

    Then came a few years of total disaster! First came WG7, a nasty and vicious, not to mention awful, parody of Garyís Castle Greyhawk. Then there was a total stop due to the process of finishing 2E. Then a few products came out such as the Greyhawk adventures hardback, the City of Greyhawk box, WG8-11, WGA1-3 and WGS1-2. They were not very well done, they did not make use of the vibrant world they were supposed to be set in and it certainly seemed to be lacking that certain special magic that had been there before. I remember at the time that I figured that all products vary in quality and that it might only be a temporary slump. After all there were still plenty of nuggets for the avid fan! I was hungry for every scrap of material that would flesh out my favourite campaign world. New material to study exhaustively and to spring on hapless players!

    Then comes the notorious moment when the bigshots at TSR wonders about what to do with the strange bird of Greyhawk. Itís not FR or any of the other flashy campaign setting they were planning and it came with a special baggage i.e. the legacy of Gygax. From their minds came the fresh idea of ďblowing upĒ Greyhawk. Shake it around and see what happens. So they do Vecna Lives!, the Greyhawk wars box and later on From the Ashes. A new world order so to speak. I remember that I always thought it funny how the bright heroic Easley picture from the í83 box got transformed by Easley to the nightmarish ride on FtA. That was good! But now all internal consistency had been removed from the campaign and anything goes was the method to rule Greyhawk. For instance, in the City of Greyhawk box refugees came to Greyhawk from the Shield Lands in 580/581 after a vicious invasion from the Horned Society but in Greyhawk Wars we learn that the free Shield Lands are invaded in 582 by Iuz shortly after having eradicated the Horned Society! Huh? The Circle of Eight was now a collection of mighty wizards, namely every named Arch-mage that had his own spells! The City of Greyhawk had turned into a town with a predominant LG alignment (due to space restrictions on the alignment map in the í83 box I wager). Robilar was now a traitor in league with Rary seemingly at odds with his old pal Mordenkainen and former henchman Otto. Vecna had returned as a demi-god only to be banished by Iuz taking the Old One with him even though Iuz was able to soon thereafter conquer the entire northern Flanaess. The leaders and prominent figures named in the Dragon articles were never heard of again (at least not until Moore and Mona tried fixing the mess). Etc. etc. Iím sure there are some compilations of errors during the various incarnations of Greyhawk for those interested.

    It turned out to be a real mess and it totally divided the Greyhawk fans. I wonder if thereís anyone willing to state that the result of these times werenít built upon the ignorance and lack of interest from the authors Iíd like to hear them explain their explanations to the glaring errors. I do not, unlike others, think that Sargent is a hack but it is evident that he wasnít as familiar with Greyhawk as Gary. How could he be? He also had to work within the established campaign world and the contributions of other such as Cook etc. Iím convinced that Sargent did his best to make a good Greyhawk, exciting and fresh. In some ways I think he did a good job but Iím saddened that he had to kill some of my Greyhawk darlings. Also, Iím convinced that what remained after the FtA version was a Greyhawk that would never have a united fan base again.

    Unfortunately Fta changed the campaign world of Greyhawk, for every Greyhawk product published from then on had to accept the changes that had been wrought upon the world. Before then I could choose to ignore S3 if I didnít think it fit into my Greyhawk, I could ignore the City of Greyhawk box if that didnít fit my view of the city of thieves and I could have Thrommel alive and married or dead and buried. Now everyone had to assume that Iuz ruled the north, that Archbold was an aged and incompetent fool, that Ivid V was not only insane, diseased and incompetent but also an undead, that Hold of the Sea Princes, Tenh, Bissel, Almor, Bandit Kingdoms and the Shield Lands were gone! We also got a powerful blue wizard that was more akin to Gandalf or Elminster than Mordy or Tenser. All of this we had to swallow or we would have little more use of the Greyhawk products than the FR ones.

    These were drastic changes and they came with little regard to what had been before. It matters little to me if this was far from what Gary or Rob had wanted for Greyhawk, what matters to me is that it differs from what I had before the changes. I donít care if Rob says that his character would never ally himself with Rary to betray his friends in the circle of Eight. I care because the character of Robilar in the published Greyhawk campaign was obviously a proud person to stand by his friends, which not included Rary, and that heíd not betray them for any obscure reason. I donít care for such drastic and illogical changes to my campaign and it forces me to choose whether I accept the published material wholesale or disregard it entirely. There is very little room for a middle ground.

    Then, finally came the waxing years. First total silence, then Mooreís attempt at a revival and finally the current fractured setting (I call it undead since it clearly isnít dead but doesnít belong to the land of the living either). This was an attempt to smooth out the rough edges left over from Sargentís tenure. It didnít really do anything new but rather tried to bring the fractured elements into a whole that most of the fans could accept while at the same time updating the world. The idea was a good one but it evidently failed since the fans are still pretty much splintered into factions. In fact, most fans seem to spend more time bickering about Greyhawk than actually enjoying the setting.

    What it all boils down to is that can you accept one version of the setting without at the same time disregarding another version? If you accept every change that the published world has seen during the last 25 years then you must accept errors, logical mistakes and some sub-standard products along the way. I donít want to have it and it also goes against that promise I got those many years ago that Greyhawk was my world to do with as I please. Iíd never plan some events that transpired through the years and Iím still a bit uneasy by having S3 take place in my campaign!

    On the other hand if you want your world to stay at the point in time where Gary left TSR then pretty much everything that came after must be dismissed. It at least means a severe dissection of the published world. Such an option is unpalatable to many simply because they like elements of the newer stuff or they want new stuff regardless.

    Either option seems to be pretty sad in my book and Iíd like to offer a solution to all of this. To the Abyss with canon and grand campaign schemes! In the RPGA LG everything must be on such an epic scale, invasions of aliens and demons, civil war, cataclysms and major upheaval! Such events can be exciting and fun but they are a pretty heavy-handed way of getting popular. Greyhawk has always prospered in the little details Ė a dungeon (of 2 or 3 levels!) with clues to another treasure or foe that can be places almost everywhere! Yes, I propose that we stop focusing on macro-Greyhawk and return to micro-Greyhawk. A village here, a dungeon there and new spells and magic that doesnít have to be drow, Suel or Tharizdunian. Refrain from the ten-page background that ties into every major event or character and two-page NPC capsules and do material that can fit as seamlessly into my Greyhawk as into yours.

    Will such efforts not be bland and totally generic? Only if we let it be. The important thing is that stuff on the micro-level can be easily ignored if not suitable to my tastes. Erik Mona is doing a pretty good job of this type right now. The first Age of Worms adventure is clearly set in Greyhawk but very little puts it into a certain version or era, despite the use of the d20 system.

    What do you think, can we agree to disagree on the big scale of things but produce material that feels like Greyhawk but doesnít offend any of the different versions of our beloved setting?
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:41 am  

    Hi Gilban, Smile

    And welcome from "lurkerdom." Smile

    What you propose, a focus on smaller details, has validity, I think, particularly as regards avoiding the canon/version issues you identify. It may be the only way.

    I think, however, we would loose something in the process. I like the sweep of Greyhawk that I cannot get just in Hommlett and its like. I love Hommlett but I also love adventures that sweep from the Baklunish West to the throne of empire in Rauxes, or Kalstrand, now adays. I would not want to give that up.

    Your point about Erik Mona is extremely well taken, I think. He epitomizes the approach you describe - petit point Greyawk. Knit one. Pearl two. Wink I find his close, piece-work approach satisfying only in the small doses he seems to prefer. When I want a big, brawling, epic Greyhawk, I must look elsewhere. It is a matter of taste. Smile

    Still, I very much agree that not everything has to be "macro-hawk." Too much Iuz. Too much Tharizdun. Etc. IMO. Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 12, 2001
    Posts: 188
    From: Hanover Park

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:50 am  
    I agree!

    Well, not with everything...mainly the "Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua" part.

    ~Scott C. :)
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:11 am  
    Well

    Well,

    I liked the summary. And I like the premise. I think we are from the same era, Gilban, going back to the Folio myself. I love Greyhawk, but just can't get that riled up about it all.

    This was actually a long post, and I edited it all out. I dont want to get caught up in canon with so many other good threads. Embarassed
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 08, 2002
    Posts: 66
    From: Finland

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:59 pm  
    Re: Canon charge!

    Gilban wrote:
    In the RPGA LG everything must be on such an epic scale, invasions of aliens and demons, civil war, cataclysms and major upheaval! Such events can be exciting and fun but they are a pretty heavy-handed way of getting popular.


    And your argument about 'everything in LG' is also false. LG, despite it's continuous smearing does not do things you say. Sure, some regions might go for big guns, that is unavoidable but just as many regions go for smaller stuff.

    S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 10, 2002
    Posts: 83
    From: Buenos aires

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:42 pm  

    well, my humble point:


    I beging i Greyhawk whit "The Adventure Beginīs" book, and later read some books thanks to the maginc of internet, like FtA and other campgains. I came interest whit Greyhawk because of the more logical and "terrenal" (if one can say that in D&D) conflicts than in other worlds (FR and DS for example). The rise of Iuz, the fall of some kingdoms, and the disentigration of a great Empire, whit the "recent" old history (in comparision to the 10K years old history of FR) caought my atention and fuel my imagination to create adventures and campgains full whit accion, dungeons and politic. I read something about the old material you love, and while its good, its too static for my personal taste. The image of conflict, evil atacking evil and good equally, good bickering by thenselfs, and NPCs having more human reasons atracts me more than the old version of Greyhawk. I consider FtA and Ivid the Undying very good meterial for the world, and now i like the way the LG organizations are taking whit the world development.
    Its maybe because i am from a diferent generation, or because i am not such a purist, but has i said, i prefer the pesent Greyhawk to the old or "original feeling" Greyhawk.



    Saludos!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:43 pm  

    Thanks for the welcome!

    GVDammerung wrote:
    When I want a big, brawling, epic Greyhawk, I must look elsewhere. It is a matter of taste. Smile


    So do I and then I go to the only source that matters in my campaign - Me, the almighty DM!

    I don't want TSR of WotC, or any other current owner of the IP, telling me what happens to my Oerth on an epic scale. No sudden magical blasts that eradicates a major city (as in Rauxes), no sudden assassinations of great leaders (I'm not a member of LG but I've heard that quite a few heads of state have been killed or indisposed), no world-spanning wars and no great cataclysms that shake the world. I will, along with my players, work and hammer out the events of my Greyhawk. And while I thankfully accept the building blocks available to me, after a suitable amount of cogitation regarding how it fits my Hawk, I refuse to accept arbitrary changes on a massive scale.

    That feeling would not change if it was Gygax or Kuntz that tried to force violent upheavals upon me!
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:52 pm  
    Re: Canon charge!

    Simpi wrote:
    Gilban wrote:
    In the RPGA LG everything must be on such an epic scale, invasions of aliens and demons, civil war, cataclysms and major upheaval! Such events can be exciting and fun but they are a pretty heavy-handed way of getting popular.


    And your argument about 'everything in LG' is also false. LG, despite it's continuous smearing does not do things you say. Sure, some regions might go for big guns, that is unavoidable but just as many regions go for smaller stuff.

    S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave

    I'm sorry if you felt smeared by my comment. Saying anything about as large an organization as LG is bound to either be very long or too generalizing. Due to the already long post I chose to generalize. Naturally not every region has the same approach to Greyhawk but it matters little to me if the state in Naerie is fine and dandy if other regions, such as Urnst, Veluna, Nyrond and Ulek, come up with grand and far-reaching events.
    (Note: The other regions were chosen randomly and not because of any specific reason so no need for representatives to come and complain about being attacked!)

    And frankly, yes, I believe that certain facets of the LG organization are deserving of being criticized. Not willing to accept that doesn't help the cause of Greyhawk nor does such an acceptance cast any aspersions on other regions.
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:59 pm  

    Mekorig wrote:
    Its maybe because i am from a diferent generation, or because i am not such a purist, but has i said, i prefer the pesent Greyhawk to the old or "original feeling" Greyhawk.

    Saludos!


    Thank you for your comments. My response is, to each his own. I do not begrudge anyone their enjoyment of the current stage of our setting, quite the contrary. Instead I abhor the lack of unity while such is unnecessary. There are a myriad ways in which great Greyhawk material could be presented without having to disrupt any version of the setting so why not aspire towards creating instead of mostly bickering and nitpicking for an eternity?

    And, finally, I'm not as much a purist as I'm the final arbiter of MY Greyhawk. I will excise anything unfitting and not be forced to swallow things I don't believe is fitting to MY Greyhawk.

    And I'm getting a bit more riled up about it than I thought I'd be! Wink
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 08, 2002
    Posts: 66
    From: Finland

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:18 am  
    Re: Canon charge!

    Gilban wrote:

    And frankly, yes, I believe that certain facets of the LG organization are deserving of being criticized. Not willing to accept that doesn't help the cause of Greyhawk nor does such an acceptance cast any aspersions on other regions.


    That can be said of any organisation, including this website. Certainly LG has it's own weaknesses such as incorporating too much stuff from builder books and putting out modules which would have needed a bit of more editing.

    But as you said in your other message. You are final arbiter of your Greyhawk. This is the problem which I have with people who attack LG.

    Why do some people think that LG takes something away from them? As far publications go LGG was the final book for Greyhawk. Circle or RPGA does not send a Soviet commissar to overseer your home campaign with 'thou shall' and 'thou shall not' stone tablets and a Makarov pistol.

    Thousand upon thousand people have fun with LG but it's not away from you (note: Generalising comment), so what is the trouble? If it is because not all material ever published is automaticaly available for, as one person once said that he should have access to every single module ever published? (never mind that he could find a ton of stuff from regional pages, but obviously he was just too lazy to write his own adventures)

    If it is because you think LG will somehow change the face of Greyhawk in the future I can say: So what? You can still run whatever you want in Greyhawk, changing whatever you fancy, it does not hinder LG or someone elses home game.

    S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:35 am  

    Well, Simpi, the problem comes from the need of a common ground when Hawkers discuss. It is quite tedious to have someone claim that Archbold rules Nyrond while others claim it's Lynwerd or a third that it is Severnd (sp?). It is troublesome when some claim that the Horned Society never lost control of their lands while others say that Iuz obliterated the Hierarchs forver and a third person claims that the Horned Ones are alive and kicking and actually have their home base on the Spindrift Isles.

    The problem is also that if all the regions, despite various degrees of quality and knowledge of Greyhawk, get to determine what will be "canon" Greyhawk in the future there will be even more splintering among the Greyhawk fans as well as more confusing issues. Greyhawk needs more unity and less divergence of facts. Otherwise websites like this one is totally useless unless it chooses to cater to the current fad of Greyhawk.

    I'm not bothered by LG at all when it comes to my campaign but for some reason I'm not content to live in isolation when it comes to Oerth, I'm interested in exchanging knowledge, gaming material as well as gaming stories. It gets difficult to do so if some people refuse to accept alternatives to "Thrommel is a vampire", "the wormcrawl fissure has cracked" or "Vecna is a lesser god".

    So, I guess my problem is that the LG regions not only want to be free from smearing but also wants to be accepted as the accepted providers of canon development of Greyhawk. That is not a good thing in my book.
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 08, 2002
    Posts: 66
    From: Finland

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:05 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    Well, Simpi, the problem comes from the need of a common ground when Hawkers discuss. It is quite tedious to have someone claim that Archbold rules Nyrond while others claim it's Lynwerd or a third that it is Severnd (sp?). It is troublesome when some claim that the Horned Society never lost control of their lands while others say that Iuz obliterated the Hierarchs forver and a third person claims that the Horned Ones are alive and kicking and actually have their home base on the Spindrift Isles.

    The problem is also that if all the regions, despite various degrees of quality and knowledge of Greyhawk, get to determine what will be "canon" Greyhawk in the future there will be even more splintering among the Greyhawk fans as well as more confusing issues. Greyhawk needs more unity and less divergence of facts. Otherwise websites like this one is totally useless unless it chooses to cater to the current fad of Greyhawk.
    .


    And you seriously think that the cooperation/Circle supervision between LG regions is so non-existant that (for example) all Iuz Border state region can make whatever they want out of Horned Society, Iuz troops, etc.

    When doing our regional history timeline the Circle check-up was quite through-out, picking out smallest details and contributing to the historical events timeline so it would not interfere with surrounding regions.

    Do you think that there isn't a meta-regional development thought by Circle and regional Triads? At least in Europe it advances slowly, with biggest thing that has happened in five years is a 'realpolitik' compact between Ahlissa, Sunndi & Onnwal which probably culminates to the liberation of Scant.

    Some people probably say that such a time line (5 years = 1 city) is still too fast for Greyhawk or just stupid for whatever reason, probably not thinking how our world has developed in five years.

    Splintering: This is not caused by LG. The fanbase itself is already divided to 'Pro-Gygax, Anti-Sargent, Anti LG, Anti (name an official supplement), etc.' groups. Go to message boards and look for some opinions people have. Read articles published here and you can see how it develops right here.

    S.H, Ahlissa (Naerie) webslave
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
    Posts: 634


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:29 am  

    Gilban wrote:

    The problem is also that if all the regions, despite various degrees of quality and knowledge of Greyhawk, get to determine what will be "canon" Greyhawk in the future there will be even more splintering among the Greyhawk fans as well as more confusing issues. Greyhawk needs more unity and less divergence of facts. Otherwise websites like this one is totally useless unless it chooses to cater to the current fad of Greyhawk.
    <snip>
    So, I guess my problem is that the LG regions not only want to be free from smearing but also wants to be accepted as the accepted providers of canon development of Greyhawk. That is not a good thing in my book.


    I've knocked the idea that all regional material in LG is going to be ported into future GH canon on the head before, but no harm in giving it another tap on the skull.

    Regional LG material will not be ported en masse into any future published iteration of GH for the simple reason that establishing the Intellectual Property rights over a lot of it will be next to nigh impossible. In the first couple of years of the campaign, WotC and the RPGA bought the rights to every Regional, Adaptable (as they were then) and Core module produced for LG. That changed about year 3 of the campaign, when the sheer volume of regional modules began to overwhelm the RPGA HQ resources. So HQ outsourced the sanctioning of regionals and metaregionals to the Circle and the triads and no longer bought the rights to them (because they didn't want to buy anything they hadn't sanctioned directly themselves). However, they continue to sanction and buy core modules.

    So - this means that the only IP material relating to LG that WotC unequivocally owns is that which appears in either Dragon or Dungon, in Year 1 and 2 LG modules and in Year3 + Core modules. Everything else belongs to whoever created it and, given the cooperative nature of regional development in LG, that's a lot of people. Trying to tease out who exactly detailed which bits of, say Keoland, would be a the kind of nightmare that IP laywers wake up screaming from (although, were I them, I'd just send a big fat check to Samwise and let him sort out the mess. Laughing ).

    The bottom line is if WotC don't own the rights to it, it's not going into any new published canon. That's not to say everything in every Core would automatically get a pass into published canon, but it does prescribe the pool of LG material from which stuff can be drawn.

    BTW - this is my read/opinion on the situation. It's not a stated policy by LG, the RPGA or WotC.

    But I do think it's the likely outcome, because I just do not see WotC (or anyone else) going to the trouble and expense of trying to establish author's rights on vast amount of regional LG material that exists. It's a legal quagmire (liberally strewn with mines).

    My two euros,

    P.
    LG Circle guy for the Splintered Sun
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:58 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    I'm not bothered by LG at all when it comes to my campaign but for some reason I'm not content to live in isolation when it comes to Oerth, I'm interested in exchanging knowledge, gaming material as well as gaming stories. It gets difficult to do so if some people refuse to accept alternatives to "Thrommel is a vampire", "the wormcrawl fissure has cracked" or "Vecna is a lesser god".


    While I can sympathize with this statement personally, I also dont think that LG is any more canon than yours or my own GH campaign. Finding common ground might seem tough with each DM's plotting and players doing things differently from each table to table, but each group will have different tales and experiences, say from the GDQ series of modules or, one group may say the Slavelords are still in power all this time because the DM of the group never ran them through the A series of modules. I guess be glad someone knows who Thrommel is, even if you arent happy with how they play it at their table.

    Simpi wrote:
    Splintering: This is not caused by LG. The fanbase itself is already divided to 'Pro-Gygax, Anti-Sargent, Anti LG, Anti (name an official supplement), etc.' groups. Go to message boards and look for some opinions people have. Read articles published here and you can see how it develops right here.


    Correct. GH fandom didnt need LG to splinter, it, like any other group of fans, was doing that all on its own, but neither does LG provide a better GH canon or avoids confusion than past events in GH's long and torrid history have done. Going to message boards and seeing the diverse opinions offered is all well and good as long as you realize that opinions on what GH should and should not be are going to vary, and thats not always bad. Its bad when people entrench themselves so deeply into an idea that they are not willing to hear or let others speak without a retaliatory flamefest that it becomes a problem.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar


    Last edited by Dethand on Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:09 am; edited 2 times in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
    Posts: 33


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:42 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    ...Your point about Erik Mona is extremely well taken, I think. He epitomizes the approach you describe - petit point Greyawk. Knit one. Pearl two. Wink I find his close, piece-work approach satisfying only in the small doses he seems to prefer. When I want a big, brawling, epic Greyhawk, I must look elsewhere. It is a matter of taste. Smile


    Personally, I like this approach.

    In fact, this piecemeal style produced the best (and most defining) parts of GH: Hommlet/ToEE, the Giants series, the Drow series, Slavelords... not to mention Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, and others.

    They were also just enough a part of a greater whole to allow a vision of the World of Greyhawk to form. Products with more sweeping scope (like the Glossography) contained relatively few details, and thus didn't limit DM options. Exceptions to this include Fate of Istus -- hmmmm...

    The point being, I think Erik Mona's style is what made GH what we love. I have high hopes for Age of Worms, and I think it promises to be an addition as good as many of the early works. Whether it delivers on that promise remains to be seen :)

    Regards all,

    Jack
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:04 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    I don't want TSR of WotC, or any other current owner of the IP, telling me what happens to my Oerth on an epic scale. No sudden magical blasts that eradicates a major city (as in Rauxes), no sudden assassinations of great leaders (I'm not a member of LG but I've heard that quite a few heads of state have been killed or indisposed), no world-spanning wars and no great cataclysms that shake the world. I will, along with my players, work and hammer out the events of my Greyhawk. . . .
    That feeling would not change if it was Gygax or Kuntz that tried to force violent upheavals upon me!


    I have gone through "stages," like they say a dying person does, with respect to GH. Shocked

    I was Gygaxian up the wazoo in the Folio/83 Box era. I still think this was the best GH ever.

    When FtA came out - I plotzed! Oh, how I hated it! Mad Over time, however, I made peace with the changes and found things were not as awful as I first imagined and that there were some positives. Cool

    Then the Living GH Gaz came out. On first read, I loved it! It "undid" a lot of FtA's worst excesses. Later, however, I started to see problems with the LGG and now I'm sort of neutral/positive.

    In between these big stages have been things like Roger Moore, Sean Reynolds, Zeb Cook etc.

    And now we have Dungeon-Hawk, which I am neutral/positive toward.

    At the end of the day, I am now accepting of change in GH, even massive change. In fact, I could get behind another huge upheaval if the alternative is LGG Forever.

    I think once we left the "Garden of Eden," the simple "paradise" of the Folio/83 Box, there was no going back. Ever. Unless you close your eyes to Greyhawk after that time and go - "La, la, la, la, I can't hear you!" That I am not willing to do. So, I adapt.

    To me, GH is now an evolving tapestry that swings between poles. Its not whether we are nearer one pole or the other at any given moment, but the ride itself.

    I like Greyhawk. Come what may. As for the Next Big Thing? Bring it on! Wink

    Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:10 am  

    jwb3 wrote:
    The point being, I think Erik Mona's style is what made GH what we love.


    That's one vote. Wink

    I think the jury is still out on Mr. Mona.

    As for Age of Worms, I too wait. Here's my question - at the end, does it leave GH changed in a meaningful way? Or was it all much ado about nothing and the status quo is preserved? Wanna guess which alternative I think would be preferable and which would be a form of GH "self-abuse?" Wink

    Smile
    _________________
    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
    Posts: 165
    From: Seattle

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:18 pm  

    While I agree that the verdict on Mona is still out, I'm strongly leaning toard agreeing with jwb3. So far, I'm able to base my opinion on a decent amount of work he's produced:

    - The Whispering Cairn
    - two Absolute Power LG adventures
    - the Canonfire articles found here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=47
    - the writeup on Diamond Lake, and his contributions to the Istivin article in Dungeon
    - several LGJ, but especially his Places of Mystery

    The only real question in my mind is just how much of the rest of the material was his and how much was others, such as Gary Holian (is it a coincidence that Gary's initials are GH??).

    While Erik hasn't yet produced the same amount of material as, say, Carl Sargent, he's quickly getting there. So have several CF authors, but I also feel comfortable saying the verdict is in on how each of them has handled Hawk thus far.

    GVD, maybe you've stated this before, and I apologize if I've just missed it, but I'm curious about these comments:

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Then the Living GH Gaz came out. On first read, I loved it! It "undid" a lot of FtA's worst excesses. Later, however, I started to see problems with the LGG and now I'm sort of neutral/positive.


    and then, after quickly moving straight away past Roger Moore, Sean Reynolds, Zeb Cook, and 'Dungeon-Hawk', he wrote:
    At the end of the day, I am now accepting of change in GH, even massive change. In fact, I could get behind another huge upheaval if the alternative is LGG Forever.


    So, what did you dislike about the LGG?
    _________________
    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:34 pm  

    basiliv wrote:
    GVD, maybe you've stated this before, and I apologize if I've just missed it, but I'm curious about these comments . . .

    So, what did you dislike about the LGG?


    "Dislike" is too strong a term.

    The LGG did GH a great service, IMO. It filed off the rough edges of FtA. It also "collected" a good deal of Greyhawk's history to form a foundation for future GH writing.

    It was, however, upon further review, remarkably unambitious and overly cautious, traits I have begun to associate with the name "Mona." For example:

    (1) The Scarlet Brotherhood, while paired back from the excess of FtA, was still left with an untenable "empire" and its overexposure problem.

    Turrosh Mak and his ridiculous "empire" were not paired back at all.

    Two of the great "adventure incubators" of the Flanaess - The Wild Coast and the Hold of the Sea Princes - were left compromised.

    Because of the SB's direct involvement with the Hold and, through Turrosh Mak, the Pomarj and Wild Coast, one stone could have killed four birds quite effectively.

    (2) Iuz The Failed was left as a travesty - not a successful conqueror, not a credible threat, just taking up space in sad devotion to the role EGG assigned him years ago but which FtA all but vitiated. He should have been rehabilitated in some way or sent on to the planes - not left in a failed limbo.

    (3) Numerous, less miserable, failures of ambition.

    The LGG is a solid work. It could have been so much more.

    IMO.
    _________________
    GVD
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:12 pm  

    I think what everyone is really missing is the true point here. GH is many things to many people for one reason. Unlike many other settings its much more barebones and flexible to the DM's needs and while many may argue points that usually are based from their own campaigns rather than a canonical (is that a word?) reference.

    Some exceptions are the LG and published GH worksm which also conflict to a degree. But as I stated we all share a common ground. But really, GH is all about making the setting your own. Even if it means ticking off a couple hundred other GH fans... =P

    On that thought.
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 78
    From: Renton, WA

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:49 pm  

    My greatest regret with the LGG (and there are several) is that we were forced to stick with the 591 CY timeframe introduced in "The Adventure Begins" and "The Player's Guide to Greyhawk." Roger did what he could to redress some of the worst grievances of the From the Ashes era, but he didn't go nearly far enough with exactly the places GVD mentions. My least favorite part of FtA, by far, was how it took all of my favorite chaotic neutral places (the term "adventure incubators" is an excellent one) and basically ruined them.

    In some places, such as the Wild Coast, the status quo had been cast in iron thanks to developments in "The Adventure Begins." In others, such as the Bandit Kingdoms, I had more leeway (and hence overwrote by a considerable magnitude--compare the space spent on each bandit kinglet to, say, any of the provinces of Nyrond, Furyondy, and North Kingdom).

    I would have vastly preferred to set the book in CY 600, but we wanted to benefit from the "synergies" of multiple products and moving the timeline forward was never presented as an option.

    In hindsight, I think I could have done it anyway and no one at Wizards of the Coast would have known one way or the other, but back then it seemed like the whole department was standing over my shoulder looking for a reason to kill the product.

    --Erik Mona
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:30 am  

    Iquander wrote ::snip::

    To the extent that Roger Moore was responsible for the scope of the LGG and to the extent that the Wotc "Powers That Be" demanded that the LGG narrowly confine itself to Moore's vision, then I apologize to Mr. Mona and the other LGG authors for criticizing them for what was outside their immediate control. Embarassed
    _________________
    GVD
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 26, 2002
    Posts: 470
    From: Canada

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:39 pm  

    These are all interesting and fascinating points. Quite frankly, I have no problem throwing canon out the window (especially if the likes of Grubb or Reynolds had anything to do with it) and going my own way, although in fairness I've tried, in the various contributions I've made to this site, to incorporate recent canon where I can.

    I too truly hated FtA. I used to blame Sargent, but now I blame Lona Williams and-more pointedly-Jeff Grubb. Grubb was apparently the one who suggested ''blowing up'' Greyhawk, and I think I know why:

    The setting offended his sensibilities.

    Unlike FR, Greyhawk is a low-to-mid-powered setting, I think. 9th level characters command respect, 16th-level fighters can wield ordinary swords, and the number of characters at or above 20th level can be counted on one hand. Whereas FR, despite its great potential and lots of good ideas, is flooded with Epic-level characters, masterwork and magical items, and other such ridiculousness. Your typical Fire Knife, in the FR 3E handbook, has five separate permanent, magical items.

    Sean K. Reynolds also had some of the same traits in the Lords of Darkness FR supplement...just how many Epic-level wizards can one world's Weave (magical ether) handle????? It wouldn't surprise me at all if Grubb, Reynold et al. had it in for the old-style Greyhawk because of what it seemed to stand for.

    Heck, that's an ugly trend I think came out with 3E-20th level is now seen as a starting point in some circles, magic items are ridiculously easy to manufacture, there are Epic-level characters around every corner, and there are prestige classes and feats everywhere you go. The days of +1 magic swords being precious and cherished treasures seem to be long gone, and that's something that factored into pre-Wars Greyhawk being ''blown up'', so to speak.

    It's not the same thing I want in my Greyhawk. Sorry Mortellan, but the idea of hedge wizards being able to manufacture permanent items (as you mention in the teaser to your Magic Items of Ull article) make me want to scream. Even NPC villains should have to make do with what they can get in terms of magic-they can't mass-produce magic items anymore than players can, and should be bound by the same rules of rarity that the players are. I wouldn't have a problem, for example, ripping out half of Hedrack's magical arsenal in the ToEE series if I decided he had too much stuff.

    But then, maybe I'm just old-fashioned, despite being only a 23-year old kid.
    _________________
    <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ.&nbsp; They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along?&nbsp;</div>
    CF Admin

    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 178
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:12 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    Unlike FR, Greyhawk is a low-to-mid-powered setting, I think. 9th level characters command respect, 16th-level fighters can wield ordinary swords, and the number of characters at or above 20th level can be counted on one hand.


    With various game changes and editions levels are'nt as solid of a measuring device as what they were. In 1st Edition AD&D getting to 18th level was quite a feat of gaming, now it can be done in a short time if you play often enough.

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    Heck, that's an ugly trend I think came out with 3E-20th level is now seen as a starting point in some circles, magic items are ridiculously easy to manufacture, there are Epic-level characters around every corner, and there are prestige classes and feats everywhere you go. The days of +1 magic swords being precious and cherished treasures seem to be long gone, and that's something that factored into pre-Wars Greyhawk being ''blown up'', so to speak.



    While you can overblow things and make it seem like around every corner there is an Epic level character waiting to make you a nigh-powerful artifact, there are'nt that many and they don't tend to do much or impact the setting. If you look at the whole of the World of Greyhawk a lot of the powerful NPC's were characters that once upon a time were played in the campaign, and as such its not unthinkable that characters themselves will at some point want to join them or make their own legends.
    Treating GH like a pristine low level setting is missing the point. What and how you do with magic items (one of the primary power indicators of the game) is crucial. Simply treating a player made longsword +1 as some mass produced item is a product of bad gaming not too mention increasing the cause and affect symptom of out-of-control power gaming. In any case, Greyhawk is full of items best left forgotten or lost as well as things like a Ring of Shooting Stars on a doorsill in a certain Temple. A lot of the game rests on each DM's tastes and preferences as to whether it will be memorable or forgettable for those who participate. Make it a game not a rules memorization excercise.
    And as far as 'Blowing Up Greyhawk', I think that had to do with some of the old TSR staff members bitter feelings about the setting and that EGG and others tended to have control over it instead of letting it be developed but thats my take from being around back in the day.
    _________________
    Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:25 am  

    In my view rectifying the mistakes from the Wars/Ashes era, e.g. bringing back the Sea Princes and the Wild Coast, is not the best of solutions since it still means that you have to take them into account. Not all of the Greyhawk fans are willing to have such drastic and far-flung consequences alter their campaigns. Greyhawk products shouldn't be about who rules which country and when will they be assassinated/charmed by this or that high-level NPC. Such events drain the dynamics of DM-player interaction that should be the basis of every Greyhawk campaign.

    The old classics were all pretty low-key in that they didn't really have any great impact on the campaign world unless the players made it so and then it didn't mess up following products. Is that a bad thing?
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:39 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    In my view rectifying the mistakes from the Wars/Ashes era, e.g. bringing back the Sea Princes and the Wild Coast, is not the best of solutions since it still means that you have to take them into account. Not all of the Greyhawk fans are willing to have such drastic and far-flung consequences alter their campaigns.


    To dig out that old chestnut - "The genie is out of the bottle."

    Sargent inaugurated "big change," for good or ill. It is now not fair or reasonable to say - "Okay. Sargent did it but no one else can institute 'big change.'"

    "Big change" is now "all's fair" in Greyhawk design.

    IMO Smile
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:22 am  
    CSL

    Hello all. In a recent discussion with a friend we were discussing the conversion from AD&D to 3rd edition and decided that one of the biggest flaws of the whole product line was that there was no explination of the conversion and nothing to establish scale between the two.

    As Deth relates earlier... the levels are not congruent as one might imagine. As an experianced player in both AD&D (I never did really convert to 2nd) and 3/3.5, I have only in the last few months really begun to grasp the subtle differences. It is obvious that the levels are different. But I would like to take Mordenkainen as an example. I (among others) have perceived that he has been advaning in levels as modules come out, and that Duicarthan advanced him yet again in his 3.5 NPC list. However, as I have looked at it recently, I dont think that this is the case.

    In order that Mordy remain as powerful as he was in previous editions, he had to assume a higher level. Maybe 18th to 30th is too far (though I have heard arguments that an AD&D Archmage would kick the tar out Duithcarn's version). This does not correspond to some sort of 30th level 1st or 2nd ed character.

    The same is true of magic items. MOST 3rd edition magic items are not as powerful as their earlier edition counterparts. This includes magic swords. A +1 sword in AD&D was a treasured magic item (at least until 10th level); in 3rd, due to changes in the system, it simply isnt impressive. Less than impressive actually. The system works subtly but dramatically different. As an example I drafted a (3ed) 4th level fighter and gave him reasonable stats and such. The addition of a +1 sword added +1.1% to his chance to hit. The same fighter at 8th level only gains +.8% on his hit chance, from the sword. So, no, a +1 Sword is not going to be treasured family heirloom because it is such a legendary blade.

    Many items are toned down, and staves and rods are significanlty less powerful. Many items previously available, and included in various modules are no longer available, or are Artifacts in 3rd. In most 3rd ed. games that I have witnessed, even Epic Level Play, Artifacts simply dont wander around games, they are too unbalancing and the DMG strongly suggests limiting their availability.

    I have read (in the 30th Anniversary Coffee Table book I believe) that the designers of 3rd struggled mightly to keep many things that are hallmarks of D&D. Classes, Races, 3-18 ability scores, Saves, etc.

    These similarities both entice and confuse. I have gone through this long example for a simple point.. the Game Mechanics and the events of Greyhawk are seperate.

    As to GH being Low Magic? Well this is an old saw that has been around since before the internet or groups such as this one. I should point out that it is what you make it. But there are/were two gods who live in the Flaness as well as innumerable liches, animuses, archmages and demons Happy
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:39 pm  

    Yeah I tried to offer decent templates for 3.5e characters in GH there. I kinda let it go the last 2 months to get a few projects done.

    As for a 1e - 2e wizard kicking Mordy's butt that depends on the player. I surely wouldnt be sitting around while they cast.

      1-2e all I have to do is deal damage to them every round via Melf's Acid Arrow or the liek and their spell fizzles. While in 3e the wizard can make a Concentration check to continue casting.

      3e - can counterspell 1e - 2e spells and with greater dispel magic with efficiency!

      Metamagic feats make a spellcaster more efficient and with the Item Creation Feats they can make their own items.

      2e fireball = 10d6, we'll say 30 dmg avg.; 3.5e maximized fireball = 10d6, 60 dmg!


    So really it depends on how you play it. Though I have to say those who don't try it will never know. Anyone can complain about something esp if it changes their perspective. But until you've really experienced it, what do you really know?
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:13 pm  

    Most characters in my campaign wax and wane in power as time passes by since they live dangerous and dynamic lives. That Mordenkainen faces the same fate is not surprising. However, I couldn't care less what TSR. WotC or LGG says about Mordy's levels. If my players ever has to face that Archmage I'll decide his current power stature.

    The problem between editions is such minor matters as the strength of various monsters (demons, giants, dragons etc.), the class and level restrictions of the races, the effects of spells and items and the standard xp system.

    Monsters: Many old heroes have faced ancient, huge red dragons and survived the conflict. In OAD&D they might've been around 7th to 12th level and while it was dangerous it certainly wasn't impossible. At what level will the biggest, baddest red dragons be fought in 2E or 3E? A lot higher if you want equal chances of survival. The same can be said of giants. Those who've tried to convert G1-3 to 3E must have had a tough time making it useful for lvls 8-12. Demons and devils haven't really acquired more power over the editions but their capabilities have changed, sometimes drastically.

    The races: In 2E mothing much changed except the level limits for demi-humans. Suddenly all elves could advance as high as lvl 15 in wizard while in OAD&D they were pretty much limited to lvl 11. The change in fighter was even more drastic, from lvl 5 to 12 in a heartbeat. That change could've altered a lot of demi-human societies. It's a wonder that Celene didn't enter the war since their armies were suddenly much more puissant. The big change comes with 3E, though, as every race can choose every class and advance all the way just like the humans. What the heck happens to a campaign after that "small" change? It's like Gamma World smack in the middle of Greyhawk, mutants and wild magic everywhere! (slight exaggeration, but it really has a HUGE impact on a world).

    Spells and magic also changed. In 3E a spell-caster can cast more spells but many of them have a more limited effect or comes without restrictions or has more restrictions. A player of an OAD&D mage with a common and wellknown reportoire of spells must really do his homework if that character's going to be converted into 3E. Nothing works exactly the same. The same goes for the magical items, they are very different.

    It isn't Mordenkainen that has been altered, it is the entire campaign that's been altered simply by the change of the rule system. Not a good thing in itself but it can be worked around.
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:04 am  
    Interesting

    Well Gilban, your point is well taken. And Dui, I was only using Mordy as an example, your conversion was excellent. My point was that the rules change did not simply convert GH to a Monty Haul Campaign, though this and similar assertions have been leveled at it since the first day of sales. While magic may be slightly more prevelent, in most cases it is significantly less potent, (i.e. the +1 Sword example.)

    I was arguing that the edition did not make much of a difference in relative power levels, and I stand by it on a indavidual level. As Duicarthan points out, it is actually impossible to know. But Gilban, your points about Races and certain monsters are things that I had forgotten about. We eliminated racial level caps in our games so long ago, I forgot that they were in the official rules.

    These changes actually do alter the way armies and nations are perceived. I suppose in AD&D the racial benefits were to be balanced by the limited levels. Maybe there wasnt supposed to be balance (which is nice in some respects). I dont rememeber, and as my AD&D PHB and other books are lost, I cannot reiview it.

    From a character/indavidual perspective I have never been troubled by various iterations of editions and alternate rules. Even the inclusion of sorcerers has never troubled my much. I suppose I subconciously applied this lack of concern to the Flaness at large. A fairly revisionist view, but this never really bothered me as I had no campaign leaping the transition.

    So, this raises a question I hope to gain input on... How do we best couch and present stats?

    In our Gran March Gazzatteer we struggled briefly with editionless writing or which edition to use. Due to the nature of the project, most will be editionless (Politics/Flora/Fauna/Population/etc.) But the campaign arc will be in 3.5 with the bulk of stats in the Appedices. A shorthand stat block, which is vague enough to allow players from other editions near effortless conversion, will be in sidebars.

    I dont know what will be made of level caps. Anyone using Dwarf as a class will be disappointed, as will users of Elf. Sorcerer should be a simple substitution with Magic User, or maybe Cleric. This will have to be left up to the indavidual DM, as I see no other solution. Suggestions on this?

    Please ommit any snarls expressing the superiority of one edition over the other. We want to know what will make this the most useful to the most people, but remain a concise introductory piece for those new to GH.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 895
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:07 am  

    As an AD&Dģ Greyhawk DM, my opinion would be to go ahead and print the 3.5 stat blocks, but try to avoid race/class combinations that do not easily convert to previous editions (e.g., no gnome paladins, half-orc ranger/monks, or kobold dragon disciples, please). Levels can be easily adjusted by each individual DM, but it's much harder to work around a character concept that's "illegal" in the first place.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
    Posts: 165
    From: Seattle

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:30 pm  

    Well, I think DMPrata's got an excellent point. Also, I think your shorthand stat blocks sound like a great idea.
    _________________
    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:42 am  
    Weed em out

    Well, that seems a reasonable suggestion. I dont think it is anyone of the authors to use this as a showcase of the absurd and unusual. Most such combinations would be rare and not likely to be central to the overall work. I cannot tell you there will not be a Dwarf Paladin (there probably will, but he would be a NPC of minor note in the Dwarf holds, for example).

    I think the most unusual thing will be Prestige Classes (Some shadowdancers in Shiboleth), and a Centaur Tribe known as the Horselords. I will also PM Ivor to note this thread, as he is the one constructing the Campaign Arc. I think that it is there that the stats are most important (trying to maintain game balance and such) and where they would prove problematic on conversion.

    I would ask though, that as we go through the peer review stage (hopefully in three to four months) you visit our GM page and provide input prior to the final version being put out.

    A final note, I have asked several authors from here on CF! to include some of their previous works which are for earlier editions. If they agree, 3.5 stats will be provided, but the original edition stats will also be included.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
    Posts: 165
    From: Seattle

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:39 am  

    For shadow dancers, you might consider providing alternate stats for the NPC as a shade. Certainly not an exact fit, but it'd retain the flavor.

    MMMmmm...flavor...
    _________________
    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.41 Seconds