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    Religious Matters
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:57 am  
    Religious Matters

    Hey all!

    Looking for a little help before I throw this ball at Anced Math. He's already juggling enough...

    Two quick questions that will help define how this neglected area will shape up for the Gazeteer. I've got the key Greyhawk materials (folder, box set, LGG), but I'm missing FtA, the Vecna stuff, etc, etc.

    First, is there any mention of a "state religion"? Even a religion that enjoys a "favored status"? I doubt if there's anything as extreme as the Pale, but is there any reference to something like the Great Kingdom-Hextor connection?

    Second, is there any mention of religions that are simply not tolerated (outside of the norm)? GM doesn't hold much love for the Baklunish; does that translate into intolerance or aggression towards their religions? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Thank in advance for the nudge in the right direction. Smile
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:11 am  

    Okay, looks like there's not much out there. Driving on.

    Thinking out loud here...

    First, let’s start off with some of the facts culled from 81/83/LGG. LGG has priority, as it is the “latest” information, but ’81 and ’83 folios were not outright discounted even if they had contradictory information.

    Gran March is listed as LN, LG, and N, with the leadership being predominantly LN. The current Commandant is actually a Cleric of Heironeous (and a wizard, but we’ll ingore that for now).

    The LGG lists the major religions of GM as: Heironeous, Saint Cuthbert, Pholtus, Fharlanghn, Zilchus, Oeridian agricultural gods, Phyton, and Obad-Hai.

    The major human ethnicities are Suel and Oeridian, but there is a large Flan minority. Other ethnicities are not present in any mathematically significant numbers.

    There, now that’s out of the way. Let’s get into some reasoning…

    Heironeous appears to be enjoying a sort of “favored status” in GM. He is an Oeridian god, so this makes some sense. GM is a lawful and militant nation, making His worship more attractive and commonplace. The Commandant of GM is well-liked, and is likely a role-model of sorts, and is also of the faith. And He is a good and just god, making him popular with the masses.

    Saint Cuthbert is not an Oeridian god, and is in opposition to Pholtus; things that detract from His popularity. However, He too is a lawful and militant god. While not necessarily good, He is just. He is also vengeful, making Him more popular with those affected by injustice and war.

    Pholtus is in opposition to Saint Cuthbert, and seems to duplicate many of the same portfolios as Heironeous; both could draw potential worshippers away from His faith. He is Oeridian, and is good, so He is still quite popular in the lawful and sometimes stern GM.

    We’ll skip over Fharlanghn, Zilchus, Phyton and Obad-Hai for now.

    The “Oeridian agricultural gods” is a rather vague entry, so I’m going to assume that Beory (Oeridian) is chief among those, with Merikka (Oeridian) included as well. Including these two goddesses means that the Oeridian gods are the ones primarily worshipped in GM; which makes sense given that much of the population is Oeridian.

    There may be Suel gods worshipped in GM, but it would be in small quantities for two major reasons. First, many of the Suel gods are not exactly pleasant, and would have probably been stomped out by the Oeridian invaders centuries ago. Second, GM seperated from Keoland, which has a major Suel population that does not look favorably on their Suel brothers from other lands. I assume that this is because the Keoish Suel have a more tolerant or accepting attitude than those in the Sea Princes or the Scarlet Brotherhood. GM Suel are descended from this Keoish Suel stock, and most likely have the same attitude, which does not mesh well with the Suel pantheon.

    I know that this seems kind of trivial and simple, but this information is going to become the base of later thinking. If we can make sure that this base is solid, future work should be a lot smoother.

    Okay, so where did I mess up? Time for you to poke holes in my thought processes.
    Smile
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:30 am  
    Churches Politics and Beliefs

    Firepower...

    There are two ways to be biggest on the block....

    To be the best or to be ther first.

    You have effectively summarized the various sects involved in GM. I would say though, that with this orderly group of people, the sect that organized and established a hierarchy first is probably the most influential and widespread. This probably means that whomever came in to conquer and pacify the March brought their god, and is probably still the largest church.

    This does not seem to me to be the type of people who are going to go chasing off after wild talk, but will stick with what they know. However, they have a touch and go history with the rulers of the March in the past, so a second church, not affiliated with "the government," would be nipping at the primary churches heel i would think.

    Also, as a polytheistic society, they are probably not wedded on a daily basis to any one god. Soldiers may venerate Heironus (or even Hextor in some cases) but they still make offerings to the agricultural gods at harvest time and Oldimarra at the tavern.

    The Living Greyhawk did something I liked and makes sense... they grouped the followers of the Oerdian Agricultural gods Merrika and her ilk as a sect that worship the pantheon. This makes sense and has a little more flavor that the general description. It also gives their church more influence than if they were representing just one god.

    Also, which god would handle commerce? Any Female Commerce god might enjoy limitied but very profitable worship as many women head up numerous commercial enterprises. Wouldnt that be interesting, the wealthiest church is no the largest or most influential?

    Also, as you progress, I would suggest keeping a sharp line in your mind between the Religion and the Church. I think it is more fun if the church takes on a life of its own, with its own self interest, and does not exactly align with what the followers think of it. It allows for more politics, intriuge, bad apples and over zealous persecutions!
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:37 pm  

    Anced,

    You're on the East Coast, I'm on the West; you're too far away to be that deep in my head! Laughing

    I'm thinking Heironeous as the "government approved" god, and therefore the most established church and religion. I'm chewing on where to put the line on this one.

    Then Saint Cuthbert, probably popular with the refugees, would be the hot new religion. The church wouldn't be very wealthy or well-funded, but it would have a large grassroots base.

    And Pholtus, long associated with the Oeridian lawmakers, would have a old, inflexible, and ostentatious church. The religion however, would probably be somewhat in decline due to the grassroots efforts of the Cudgel Clerics.

    I like the idea of a female goddess of commerce/trade. I'll have to see what I can dig up.

    Next up, the gods you don't want to get caught worshipping in GM...
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:42 pm  

    So we’ve got a little bit on who’s on the “A-list” (god-wise) in GM. There are lots of religions that aren’t as popular or prolific, but the worst reaction from GM folks would probably be an odd look.

    Here’s who I’m thinking would be on the “most unwanted” list…

    Vecna. GM has lots of connections with Keoland, and Vecna is NOT popular there. This attitude probably crossed into GM. Even mentioning his name is likely to get you a visit from some government/church officials.

    Iuz. Here’s another real unpopular name, what with him pretty much starting the Greyhawk Wars and all. Plus, he’s suspected of stirring up the giants, which doesn’t win over any of the refugees. The government doesn’t fear this guy like Vecna, but the population does. Priests of the Old One can probably expect to be beaten before being turned over to authorities.

    Al’Akbar. Not really too much of a surprise here. Sure he’s lawful and good, but for the “other side”. And GM folks aren’t too keen on Baklunish for some reason. Any priest of Al’Akbar is likely viewed as a spy, and probably can’t operate openly in GM, further adding to his already shady image.

    Then there’s the usual trio of evil gods (Erythnul, Nerull, and Incabulos) that only evil countries THINK about tolerating. Throw in Hextor, just because Heironeous is the favorite in GM, and those two get along SO well. Confused And add some Baklunish gods (Istus, Geshtai) for the same reasons as Al’Akbar.

    For the 3.0/3.5 folks, you can add Taiia and Toldoth to the bad list. Taiia because she doesn’t fit in to the lawful sensibilities of GM. She’s good! She’s evil! She’s lawful! She’s chaotic! There’s no way to easily define her (or her clerics), so she’s viewed with distrust. Toldoth, well he’s the opposite of light and good. That’s pretty much reason enough for most folks.

    The other gods don’t get much reaction for a variety of reasons. Some are okay, just a little “off” for GM folks (Olidaramma, Rao). Some don’t fit in, like sea gods in land-locked GM. Some are obscure, like Dennari (who?) or Zuoken (that’s south of Greyhawk, right?). But most just don’t have the numbers to get noticed much.

    Again, any issues with this? Or am I on the right track?
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:30 pm  
    just about there

    I think you are just about there firepower, and i applaude the work already. However, i think there are two exceptions to your overall concept.

    Al Akbar... I seem to remember reading somewhere that his cup and talisman had gone missing in this area. I doubt he is reviled. Not loved, not worshipped, but one of the grudging respect type deals. Maybe, maybe not, depending on the worshipper.

    Oldimarra... I have yet to meet the soldier who wouldnt venerate Oldiamarra, and as a trade god, he may work for what most soldiers see as trade.

    Finally, Vecna... Vecana has to be the boogey man under the bed. His tower was here, his empire was here, the Knights of the March (which became the KoW) were created in order to subjugate his Flan followers. He is the evil in the history.


    And I think Hextor is probably more popular than most want to claim. After all, this is a LN society first.
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:48 pm  
    Re: just about there

    Anced_Math wrote:

    Al Akbar... I seem to remember reading somewhere that his cup and talisman had gone missing in this area. I doubt he is reviled. Not loved, not worshipped, but one of the grudging respect type deals. Maybe, maybe not, depending on the worshipper.


    I recall something similar. How this for nasty? The Cup and Talisman are in an area where the Baklunish are not welcome. Or maybe, someone just set up GM as the scapegoat, and the artifacts are elsewhere. Either way, such a twist would cause the Al'Akbarians (uh... whatever) to dislike GM folk as much as GM dislike Baklunish. And this gives excellent reason for Baklunish holy men to seek these sacred relics in the lands of the heathens and unbelievers. Of course, GM just view it as another Baklunish invasion...

    Quote:
    Oldimarra... I have yet to meet the soldier who wouldnt venerate Oldiamarra, and as a trade god, he may work for what most soldiers see as trade.


    I'm gonna disagree with that one. From Dieties and Demigods' view on the god: "Dogma. Olidammara loves upsetting anyone who seems too attached to an ordered life and a predictable routine." A soldier's life IS predictable routine. Now, the "wine, women, and song" part I totally agree with. But merely raising a glass in His honor wouldn't translate in Him being a popular god, IMO.

    Is he present? Yes. Is he tolerated? Yes. But I don't see him making the Top Ten. At least in GM.

    Quote:
    Finally, Vecna... Vecana has to be the boogey man under the bed. His tower was here, his empire was here, the Knights of the March (which became the KoW) were created in order to subjugate his Flan followers. He is the evil in the history.


    No argument there. Preach Iuz, and you get hauled away as evil. MENTION Vecna, and men in black suits (or the March equivalent) are investigating your friends and family, seizing your assets, and putting you someplace dark and small while they question you. For a few years.

    Hextor... I guess I can see Him being a little more popular. Not with any Heironeous worshippers, of course. But there are plenty who don't, so we can probably move Him to the "not really noticed" list. His worshippers are there, but they stay low-key. No building a grand temple across from Heironeous'. Smile
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:58 pm  
    Oldimarra

    I see oldimarra as being popular at every tavern... and pretty much only then. Not as constant reverence but as the Anheiser Busch god of GH.

    Hextor would be popular with those who lost family to the war and want vengance and slaughter
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:01 pm  
    oh

    oh, and IMC the worshippers of Al Akbar do believe that he Cup and Talisman are lost in this area so there are lots of Al Akbar Paladins and such on a holy quest. And while not loved, IMC, the population kind of says "Oh there is another one of those Akbarians." They dont cause trouble, and they help fight evil when it rises up. Actually, IMC a Akbar Paladin has created quite a reputation defending a river crossing a few miles N of Hochoch.
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:27 pm  

    Nice work on the religious aspect.
    I think that since the present commandant is a cleric of Hieroneous the Hextor worshippers would be mostly underground in a figurative sense or in more remote areas as would any Baklunish living in Gran March given its recent history.
    I am working on the city of Hookhill and would the help of someone interested in developing the placement of places of worship for the various faiths and interaction of the cleric within the capital city as well as development clerical NPCs. If you are interested.
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:08 am  

    IvorMac,

    With what's coming next on this part of the project, you may just be able to get what you need here. But if that doesn't work, I'd be happy to help out.
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:29 am  

    Summary so far...

    Favorite gods are Heironeous, then Saint Cuthbert and Pholtus (or vice-versa depending on who you ask). The Oeridian agri gods are very popular among the citizens, but are not unified.

    Gods that will get you in trouble are Vecna, Iuz, and the typical trio of Erynthul, Nerull and Incabulos.

    Al'Akbar and the other Baklunish gods' status is still being decided, but we'll get to that a little later.

    Other gods are represented in GM, but operate "under the radar" by choice or by chance. They're probably not going to get detailed too much.

    In some religions, there is a significant difference between the religious tenets and the church operations.

    A mercantile god, preferrably female, is going to be researched and will most likely have the wealthiest church in GM. More work to follow on that.

    Did I miss anything?

    If not, it's time to focus in on the four major players. Defining how their churches operate, where they operate, what their congregation is composed of, etc. I might even have some preliminary stuff by tomorrow.
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:39 pm  
    Oerdian Agri God

    You mentioned that the Oerdian Agri gods are not unified, how do you mean?

    I like the idea of them being worshipped as a pantheon, and that is the only way I see them making it in the top 4... but it would be nice to have one who is a little out of the Blinding light/ Flashing sword mold.

    What about Atroa, Merrika and Sotillion as a triumvrate, who are venerated as a group... otherwise i dont think they could possibly have enough worshppers to rank among the top 4.

    Also, there almost has to be a nature god... one who is maybe feared and respected as opposed to venerated.
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:57 pm  
    In opposition

    Also, I would suggest that Hieronous, St. Cuthbert and Pholtus are in opposition, i.e. they are competing for the same followers. However, I would think that all the other gods mentioned are worshipped in addition to one of these three for most people.

    THoughts?
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 5:54 pm  

    Quote:
    You mentioned that the Oerdian Agri gods are not unified, how do you mean?

    I like the idea of them being worshipped as a pantheon, and that is the only way I see them making it in the top 4... but it would be nice to have one who is a little out of the Blinding light/ Flashing sword mold.


    Exactly. Worshipped as a pantheon. Worshippers who favor Beory, but venerate the rest number x. Worshippers who favor Merikka, but venerate the rest number y. And so on. X is less than any one of the Top Three, but X+Y(+all the others) is greater than any one (maybe even two or three) of the Top Three.

    On reflection, I probably should've said they ARE unified. That's what I get for typing at work...

    Quote:
    Also, I would suggest that Hieronous, St. Cuthbert and Pholtus are in opposition, i.e. they are competing for the same followers. However, I would think that all the other gods mentioned are worshipped in addition to one of these three for most people.


    Perfect! They're all reasonably close from a dogma perspective that this would work great. Maybe even changing loyalties once in a while (opening the door for Hextor a little more), unless they're clerics.

    And I'm picturing something like Farmer Bob worshipping the Oeridians, then falling in with the Heironeous crowd when he's conscripted, maybe changing over to Cuthbert or Hextor when times got tough, and over to Zilchus when he cashiers out and starts his own business. He still does his little bit to his "old" gods here and there, but Zilchus (or whoever) is his "main" god now.

    While General Disorder... pardon, Marshall Disorder... has to uphold his image with the nobles and be an example to his troops and so on. Goes to the church of Heironeous every Godsday. But his little shrine at home is to Fharlanghn to watch over him while he travels away from his home and family.

    Makes for some nice dualities among the non-cleric population.
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    Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:51 pm  

    AM, good news/bad news!

    I found your female god of trade/commerce/merchants!

    Okay, I know this is probably heresey, and I'll be burned at the stake. It's Waukeen out of Forgotten Realms' Faiths and Pantheons. Embarassed

    With a little work, I could morph her into a new, local demigod. Sort of like an ascended hero. But that's definitely straying outside of canon.

    Otherwise, it's Zilchus.

    Your call...
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    Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:59 am  
    Waukeen

    Well, I think that would offend so many people as to not be reasonable. FR is just too anthema to most of the GH world. That said, I dont think you should abandon the idea.

    I have two thoughts. First, a while back we were discussing having the Gran March be a place of ancestor worship, maybe a remnant of the original Flan inhabitants or some such. The ancestors would not replace the gods in any way, they would be venerated spirits whom each family believes to be in the service of the Gods. The most recent National Geographic, with the Great Grey Owl on the cover has a fantastic piece on this. If the idea is agreeable, we can go into more detail. It is shown in Gladiator if you have seen that, with his household gods.

    Second, the female merchant goddess should be a Hero Diety of unique design and very local origin. Maybe the Ancient Matriarch of one of the more powerful clans of women merchants. I have a D20 supplement that is excellent for creating such stats. I think that would work better than drafting in a FR diety.
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    Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:23 pm  

    AM,

    I like the idea of a local Hero Deity the best. Unfortunately I have no d20 products (except War, and let's not discuss that), so I would have to make up this Demigod from the DDG. Should work, and I can probably have her finished by next weekend. Very local, fairly new, and fairly narrow field of interest. But a broad support base from the women in GM.

    The churches part of the project is moving along. I've got who's in what areas, and I've got a rough draft of the support/involvement levels. I'll wrap that up shortly. I would be floundering around if not for those draft maps... big help.

    More to follow...
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    Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:47 am  

    Okay, here's what I've got on the Oeridian agricultural/nature pantheon...

    The most commonly worshipped deity in Gran March is not actually a single entity, but a loose pantheon of Oeridian gods and goddesses holding domains that relate to the agricultural bent of the people. Beory Greater Goddess of the Oerth, Velnius Lesser God of Weather, Atroa the Lesser Goddess of Spring, Sotillion Lesser Goddess of Summer, Telchur Lesser God of Winter, Wenta Lesser Goddess of Autumn, Berei Lesser Goddess of Agriculture, and Merikka Demigoddess of Farming. Beory is given her due in conjunction with whatever other deity is being petitioned, thus placing her at the head of this pantheon. The other deities are worshipped according to the needs of the people, and one does not compete or hold dominion over another. For example, Wenta sees few prayers in the spring when her sister Atroa is favored, but as harvest draws near she hears more and more from the people of Gran March.

    It is important to note that this is not an actual pantheon; i.e. it was not established by the divine members. Rather, it is the choice of the people conducting the worship who to venerate to best serve their needs. Since there is little need to worship Procan within the Gran March, though he is an Oeridian god, he is not included in this grouping. There is no intended disrespect or sleight to the gods by this grouping, and the nature of this pantheon has demonstrated the wisdom and foresight of their worshippers.

    In the homes of most farmers and ranchers can be found the physical symbol of the Oeridian Nature Pantheon; a simple shrine about two cubic feet in size, depicting the nine members of the pantheon in paints or carvings. This shrine is typically hand-made from local wood, and usually is not considered of any saleable value. However, offerings and prayers are made at these home shrines on a daily basis by tens of thousands of people throughout the nation. The offerings are usually something that the family can spare, and are more symbolic than anything. Prayers are likewise short and direct, so that the rigorous duties of a farmer or rancher are not delayed.

    In most of the communities within Gran March larger shrines to the Oeridian nature gods can be found. These shrines tend to resemble amphitheaters, and are located in natural settings such as stands of trees or gardens. These public shrines are not overly large, and are normally tended to by a cleric of one of the gods of the pantheon. There may be a couple of lay clergy to assist the cleric in larger communities, but usually the cleric operates alone. This cleric, though holding one god of the pantheon as his or her personal deity, is knowledgeable about all the gods in the pantheon out of necessity. A cleric of Velnius would do well to know Wenta’s teachings near harvest time and Atroa’s in Planting.

    Just south of Hookhill is a larger amphitheater, capable of seating over a hundred, located on a lightly forested hill a short walk from the city walls. There are a handful of clerics here, though rarely are two dedicated to the same god, and about two dozen lay clergy. Each cleric of this “chapel” tends to either a small garden or a few animals, both to support themselves and to serve as an example to their congregation. Despite holding different gods above others, these clerics cooperate with and learn from each other, all to better serve their congregation, the pantheon, and their own god.


    Am I fired? Smile I'm doing up Heironeous, Cuthbert, Pholtus, Hextor (yes, Hextor), Obad-Hai and the female-commerce-god (no name yet) in the same manner. But I wanted to nail down the pantheon first.

    Thoughts?
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    Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:02 pm  

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer list the Oerdian agriculture
    As Atroa(spring), Sotillion (summer), Wenta (autumn) Telchur (winter) and Velunius (weather). p19

    Zilchus is the money god for Gran March I think we should stick with that for this project. One could hint at raise of a woman hero of money, which the cleric of Zilchus woud view as a threat. Potenial adventure or intrigue

    In many cultures of our world women are the maintainers faith as woud be in Gran March. Since they do most of the work and farming the Agriculture gods would be very well supported at all times.

    Overall gods do not support fickle worshippers so I do not think their would be much advantage to bouncing around to suit the sitution. As all good clerics know strength comes from faith. The faithful are rewarded.
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    Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:57 pm  
    Disagree

    What I think we need to do with religion in Gran March is something that I think has never been done before in Greyhawk, and that is make it a real componenet of politics and game play.

    I disagree somewhat Ivor, in that I think we need to change Zilchus up some. He is the god of trade. However, I disagree that everygod is jealous of thier followers. This is, I think, an oversimplification in a complex polytheistic world.

    In ancient greece. one prayed to Venus for love, Zeus for weather, Posiden for good sees, Athena for wisdom. You could pray to Venus for guidance, but you would be wasting your time asking for a succesful war.

    I think a better statement would be that each god is concerned with receiving their due, except of course from those they granted divne gifts, such as spells. So, Hieronus would frown upon a warrior who prayed to Heirounus and Kelanen for prowess in battle.

    This raises an obvious problem with Zilchus and another god of trade. However, maybe not, and maybe not one that offends the rest of the Greyhawk world. Zilchus is, after all, a god, and an intelligent one. So he notices 500 or so years ago that the women of Gran March are still venerating him, but with reluctance, as they seem to consider him somewhat on the side of their competitors, men. So, he calls in a faithful servant, Aonea, whom he instructs to speak to the women. The Planetar (for the lack of a better example) speaks to the women, and they listen. And now, there has arisen a small cult of followers who consider her the "hand of Zilchus," and pray to her to interceed with Zilchus on their behalf. Maybe it is a mystery cult like Deneri? Wheather a real goddess or not, she receives veneration, and under a variety of methods, could have additional power over the standard outsider of her type. THis could be from the veneration itself, or from additional boons granted by Zilchus for bringing these followers closer to the fold? In many ways this could mirror worship or veneration of the Virgin Mary or one of the Saints.

    Either way, I think that it gives the female merchant class more character and depth if they have their own patron. And lets say that everyone of their temples has as its center piece an altar to Zilchus, but all the reverence is given to the small idol in the corner? And it is this sect of Zilchus worshippers who collects the most tithes every month, making it the wealthiest church in all of Gran March, even if it has a fairly paltry number of followers. After all they are all wealthy merchants.

    Its just an idea, but I feel strongly that we need to describe a religious/spiritual world that is far more compelx (and interesting) that religion normally is in GH. GH has interesting gods, and attrocious religions. Who answers to whom? Is the partriarch divinely inspired, or the cousin of the King?

    I think the only people who have a simple view of religion in the Flaness are the priests, as they have chosen a single entity to venerate. The average farmer is not going to tithe St. Cuthbert for good weather. Lets change it up a little (or a lot) and make this a complex world for our players, one with texture, ebbs and flows.

    In my mind the only people in a polytheistic world who worships only one god are priests, paladins, etc. This sounds easy, but players often claim to venerate all the gods, but in my game, they have too. On monthly festivals, they would perform certain traditional rites for/with their ancestors, such as a sacred meal. Then they head off to drink beer with living family. After the performance in the tavern, they pour wine and a little coin on the bard's portable altar to Oldimarra. As they leave they pass a shrine to Farlaghan, and since they are going on a long journey they drop a little Hard tack and coin as an offereing, while praying that his lord would watch them on their journey. As they leave town, they intentionally make a side trip to the Temple of Velnius to hold back the late blizzards of spring.

    This doest mean that you tithe players to death and let them do as they will. A Marcher who has grown up in a Merchant house may venerate Zilchus, and be very suspicious of Mouqul. They may follow Pholtus as their center, and it is to his temple they go on high holy days. So, casual tithing to Heironus could result in a very minor divine annoyance. The more powerful the character, the more likely divine displeasure.

    Oh, and I like keeping the Oerdian pantheon down in number just a little, maybe the 4 winds, and Merrika?

    Lets make it possible for religion to be an energizing focus for a campaign. I dont think in general that anyone has ever detailed this aspect of religious life anywhere in the Flaness.
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    Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:13 pm  

    I agree about the Greek gods and I was not clear enough as to what I meant.You said it better.
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:09 am  
    On Second Thought

    On second thought, the Lortmils are to the East, lets skip the East wind, the Marchers dont ever see one. The North and South wind though, would play a major role IMO. I think Telchur would be feared. Thoughts?
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:16 am  

    Is there anything canon on the role of religion generally, as opposed to specific dieties for GM? GM would be impacted by the Keoish perspective, perhaps it goes along with that or overreacts one way or the other. Lots of possibilities.

    Take the Keoish perspective that they cannot be trusted, but toss in the adage "keep your friends close, and you enemies closer". You could have every cult required to obtain a license and perform public works, which could involve serving in the military other other government positions. Every cleric could be required to be something like a second class civil servant with a patron or body keeping an eye on them. Of course, what looks good on paper does not always work out. The Keoish view is anti-institution, not anti-religious, and things could turn upside down. Second class civil servents could not tell you what to do, but they could end up running thing.
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:42 am  
    Wolfsire

    Those are good points Wolfsire. I was think more on detailing how a church operates. I think your observations, though, are valid. What is societies thoughts on Gods, vs. churches.

    The old adage, "there are no athiests in a foxhole," comes to mind immediately. I can see the Keoish, whose populations has never been that militant (or not in a long, long time) being suspicsious of the churches, and the militant Marchers happy to see them coming.

    I would think that the Marchers would prefer a structured church (es) as opposed to the less institutionalized format of Keoland. I hope others will weigh in.
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:49 am  

    When you look at the Oeridian goddesses in terms of wind direction, not all of them would be appropriate. If you look at the seasonal aspect however, they become more relvant.

    That said, cutting the pantheon down to the four seasons, plus either the agriculture or farming goddess, makes quite a bit of sense. After all, Obad-Hai is also listed in the LGG, and Beory and him tend to draw the same followers I would imagine.

    Among the population (at least the conscripted males), I can't imagine anyone so confident in their own prowress in combat that they don't pray to someone. True, the Keoish folks to the south don't put as much stock in the churches, but they don't need them like the March troops do.

    Face it, any troop that is looking across the field of battle and thinking "Looks like I'm getting my *** kicked today" is gonna start looking for a little edge. And that cleric of Heironeous did help us out before and after the last battle. Maybe there's something to that praying stuff...

    But I'm just a biased old soldier. Smile
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:02 pm  

    I like that the idea that there are four Agricultural gods. It is more representative of Native American, Wicca and other earth based religions, which existed before many of the more "sophisticated" pantheons. The present Oeridian Agricultural god work well enough, they are winds (Atroa goddess of Spring and the East wind p 165 LGG) and they do not exclude Merikka.
    I also noting that a number of Cities and towns in the old days and even now in the Mediterranean cultures would have and have patron saints of the town. So as an example Orlane's patron god is Merikka. This may be difficult to do for every town, but the townsfolk would be more or less lean towards one god and falling back to others when the need was there. Just an idea.
    One other item I think need to be thrown into the mix here is the Druids. They ware going to be important especially in such a sparely populated country. I am also going to suggest that their be not only druids protecting the forest but the plains swamp and mountains as well.
    Also with 92% of Gran March's population living out of cities and in smaller communities and rural that the gods that bring good crops and healthy horses are more important than gods of money or even war.
    I do agree that gods Like Hieroneous and St.Cuthbert are going to be popular given the martial/lawful nature of Gran March.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:15 am  
    Obad-Hai

    I said I'd have some stuff by this weekend. So here's some more religious matters to chew over with your Easter eggs...

    Obad-Hai
    One of the more noticeable churches in Gran March is defined by it’s lack of a building and blending of natural elements; the church of Obad-Hai. Found mainly near the Dim Forest and the Rushmoors, there are few worshippers of The Shalm outside of the smallest of towns. Since many of the worshippers blessed by Obad-Hai’s grace are druids, it is only fitting that their places of worship be in the most natural of settings. However, a remote glade unseen by man for a century is not the best location to minister to the congregation. So a compromise of sorts has been reached; only a few villages in the more remote areas of the land have a grove in their proximity.

    Even a rough estimate of the number of worshippers of Obad-Hai in Gran March tends to be inaccurate. Many do not set down roots like the rest of the population, and live off of what the land and their god provide them. It is certain that there are at least five groves to The Shalm, though more secretive places of worship are thought to exist deeper in the Dim Forest. There is a grove near Audley, seeming to watch over the main artery to Hochoch. Another is north of Rymar along the wooded banks of the river. A third grove is a few miles north of Wolsingham, while the last two are near Nighley and Prouse.

    Clerics and druids of The Shalm tend to stay out of political discussion and the day-to-day lives of most of the population of Gran March. However, they are staunch defenders of their charges, and take the intrusions of civilization seriously. Rarely directly violent, the power of nature is subtly brought to bear by the priests against those that would harm the wilderness. But the wisdom and beliefs of Obad-Hai have helped the population in the past, and continues to do so today. A russet-robed traveler instructing a farmer about the damage that clear-cutting a small wooded area could cause is not taken lightly. Either the priest is correct, or the priest will arrange for a demonstration of nature’s power. And while the priests are not allowed to run roughshod over the people, they are treated with respect and their advice is usually welcomed.

    The Shalm’s worshippers do not seem to care about any of the factions in Gran March, religious or otherwise, unless their domain is threatened. The Oeridian pantheon holds sway over much of the population, but concerns itself little with the wilderness, so they are ignored. The logging operations in the eastern Dim Forest are nudged in the proper direction, and prodded when they become complacent or greedy. Military patrols are cautioned about straying off the road to Hochoch, without being threatened or lectured. The priests of Obad-Hai are the guardians of the wild, and they stay out of the affairs of “civilized” society as much as possible, but their presence is felt.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:18 am  
    Hextor

    And for my next trick...

    Hextor
    Though not widely known throughout the lands of Gran March, there is a foothold of an evil deity operating in the open in one of the largest cities. Hochoch, swelled with refugees and remnants of the forces that battled the giants to the west, is home to a surprisingly powerful contingent of worshippers of Hextor. A small but well-fortified chapel was built by unnamed and unseen sponsors after it became clear that the forces of Geoff and Sterich would not win out over the giant invaders. As the bitter seed of defeat grew in the hearts of those not killed or enslaved by the giants, the membership swelled and the chapel grew stronger.

    Of course those who held good deeds in high regard, and especially the followers of Heironeous, had little love for the church of Hextor. But as the resistance cells were crushed by giants, those who had hardened their hearts found comfort in the Scourge of Battle. And though those who prostrated themselves to the Champion of Evil were only infrequently revealed, the ones that survived surely became more powerful and influential. That the church continues to operate, and its members remain mostly secret, is a testament to the power and resourcefulness of the church, its members, or its sponsors.

    There are other religions operating in Hochoch that could likely put an end to Hextor’s church in the city, but there is a problem that everyone in the beleaguered city faces; no one can say for certain who is a follower of the Herald of Hell. Sometimes minor members are captured, tried, and punished. More frequently, the charges are dismissed or a witness reverses testimony. And most often, a twist of fate throws plots against the church into disarray. There may only be one or two powerful members operating behind the scenes. Or there may be dozens or more. And without knowing who to trust, no one dares overextend their hand and act directly against Hextor’s church.

    The mere presence of a place that openly worships Hextor within Hochoch is creating discord and conflict within the city. And though Hochoch is largely run by authoritative figures, the citizens are in chaos as their future remains uncertain. So the authorities in Hochoch frequently strive to bring order to the tumultuous lives of the people, occasionally crossing the line between safety and invasiveness, justice and tyranny. Whether the church of Hextor is behind this evil, or merely seizing an opportunity remains to be seen.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2005 12:21 am  
    Zilchus

    And, my last one for the night. The female hero deity of the mercantile women of Gran March...

    Inessa
    For hundreds of years, women in Gran March have tended to the homes and businesses of their husbands, brothers, and fathers while the men were away at war. True, not a small number of women joined the ranks of men throughout the years. But the vast majority of women learned from an early age that they were just as powerful as any army, for they ran the rich economy that flourished on the Northern Keoish trade route. Traditionally, Zilchus was held in high regard by the merchant middle-class for his tenets of disciplined business practices and far-reaching contacts. But his church in Gran March has taken a unique twist.

    While the Second Expeditionary Army was battering Veluna in the mid-300’s, a woman named Inessa Novak was given the temporary title of Mayor of Hookhill. She was a retired adventurer of some status, and was a very devout follower of Zilchus. History traditionally makes no mention of those who enable the heroes to fight and win, and so it was true with Inessa. By her second year in office, she had guaranteed the pensions of the soldiers in the Army through her exceptional negotiation skills and deft political and business maneuverings. Ensuring that the military was properly funded was her greatest goal, and she succeeded for over thirty years. She instilled a sense of duty in the merchants who called Hookhill their home, and under her guidance the women of the city brought prosperity to themselves, their neighbors, and the city itself. Just weeks after her death in 377, a statue of Inessa Novak was dedicated by the businesswomen of Hookhill in the center of the Merchant’s District.

    Zilchus took notice of the adoration his worshippers had for Inessa, and as she was a devout priestess of his, made her his herald in the Northern Sheldomar Valley. Inessa brought greater glory to Zilchus in the fledgling Gran March, though she was almost unknown of elsewhere. Seeing her true potential, Zilchus quickly invested her with a piece of his divine essence, making Inessa his proxy in Gran March, and letting his will and his worshippers be served through her. Inessa is seen as something of a patron saint by most women in Gran March, though she is only an instrument of Zilchus. However, she has been made divine, and receives devotions in conjunction with Zilchus.

    Today Inessa does not have any churches of her own, though her likeness is usually found in the rich shrines and chapels of Zilchus throughout the land. Her statue in Hookhill is now encircled by a chapel of Zilchus, and Inessa’s influence is nearly equal to his in that holy site. Though her worshippers do not have temples of their own, they have successfully created something of a juggernaut in the political and business areas. Most businesses in Gran March are owned or operated by women, and most businesswomen in Gran March at least pay homage to Inessa. As a result, her church is powerful in every aspect of the word. Trade flows because her worshippers will it. Efforts in war or negotiation are redoubled if there is greater profit in one or the other. Guilds thrive or crumble depending on their value to the church and the integrity with which they operate. If there is profit to be made without damaging the structure of the nation, the Cult of Inessa has a hand in the conduct of such business.

    As might be expected, Inessa’s influence is greatest in the largest trading areas. Lortenford, Shiboleth, and of course Hookhill are all heavily influenced by the cult. Beadnell, Darras Hall, Harnac and Sereneall also have notable temples of Inessa and Zilchus. The influence of Inessa does not extend far beyond the lands of the March however, as Mellit’s Wharf has a church of Zilchus, with no real mention of his female proxy.

    She does not claim clerics as her own, though more than a few women have altered Zilchus’ symbol to reflect their devotion to Inessa. Instead of the distinctly male hands of Zilchus clutching the bag of gold, Inessa’s devotees have changed the hands to those of a female. Being of the same divine essence, there is no difference between worshippers of Zilchus and Inessa, though Inessa’s worshippers are almost exclusively females of Gran March.

    The Big Three are last to go. Thoughts? Comments? Am I fired yet? :)
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:14 pm  
    Saint Cuthbert

    Here we go, the Big Three...

    Saint Cuthbert
    That there are many Lawful chapels in Gran March should come as no surprise. What is something of a surprise is how rapidly the Church of Saint Cuthbert has grown in recent years. There has been a small flock of faithful in these lands for decades, but the larger churches of Pholtus and Heironeous usually attracted those inclined to follow Cuthbert. However, since the west has been flooded with refugees and victims of the giant’s invasion, the ranks (and coffers) of the church have swollen considerably.

    Most influential and prolific in the west, the church of Saint Cuthbert can be found throughout the land serving to aid the people through discipline, common sense, and enforcement to the law. The Bishop of the Sheldomar March diocese in Hochoch emphasizes working closely with the sheriffs, constables, and law enforcement of Gran March. While at first glance this may seem to be in opposition to his dictum, he also discreetly encourages cooperation with bounty hunters and even assassins who work to bring down the giants and their lackeys across the Javan River. This makes the church of Saint Cuthbert immensely popular with the refugees from Geoff and Sterich, and many of the brave souls who strive to liberate Geoff and bring order to Sterich hold Cuthbert as their patron. It is rumored that more than a few seasoned commanders of the Knights of Dispatch hold Saint Cuthbert in high regard, though this cannot be confirmed with so many of the Knights in the field.

    The center of the church in Gran March is the temple in Hochoch, where the Bishop presides over standing-room-only services every Godsday. The temple in nearby Mellit’s Wharf is newer, and the High Priest’s services are only slightly less attended than the Bishop’s. Orlane, Audley, Wolsingham, Beadnell, Harnac, Hookhill, Mareton, Murille, Shiboleth, and even the Watch Fort west of Hookhill all have congregations of Saint Cuthbert served by priests. All of them count a substantial number of lawmen in their ranks. But Locks Heath, home to a tiny shrine of Cuthbert, serves as an example across the dioscese; only three (out of seventy-eight) of the guardsmen there do not hold Saint Cuthbert as their patron.

    While March law prevents the devout clergy of Saint Cuthbert from serving as judges, leaving that privilege to Pholtus’ flock, nothing prevents their presence in the militia barracks. Clerics of the Cudgel even occasionally accompany town guards and town watches on their patrols, earning them respect and even some converts among the town’s defenders. Of course this also brings them into direct conflict with the most violent and dangerous of law-breakers, where their martial training and divine powers can be put to good use. Those who enforce the law are always welcome in the chapels of Saint Cuthbert, whether officially sanctioned or not.

    The Bishop at Hochoch has wisely followed in his predecessor’s footsteps and courted the constabulary of Gran March, making only occasional sermons to the military, nobility, and other civil servants. While this has earned the church a reputation of being for the common man, it has also stirred legal debate with the church’s rival Pholtus. The two faiths frequently butt heads, resulting in shouting matches in the streets and the occasional scuffle as tempers flare, but neither side truly wins. And neither faith would ever think to take any illegal action against the other. So the typical battlefield is in the courts, where the advantage goes to those of Pholtus. However, if prejudicial rulings are handed down by the courts, the constabulary recognizes it as such and simply refuses to enforce unjust laws.

    This rivalry between Saint Cuthbert and Pholtus has carried over to their faithful and their flocks in recent years, resulting in a minor schism between those that make the laws and those that enforce them. For minor violations, judges tend to nit-pick the constables on procedure and technicalities. In turn, the constables tend to add on obscure or outdated charges to further frustrate the judges. For example, a simple bar fight might be charged as aggravated assault, brawling on Godsday, illegal distribution of alcohol (beer was spilled), and excessive noise after sunset. The judge would throw out many of the charges on technicalities or lack of evidence, but the accused could spend two days in jail for brawling on Godsday. However, both the constabulary and the judiciary unite against more serious crimes, and the petty infighting disappears. Common sense and the law unite, even though the clerics rarely do.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:16 pm  
    Pholtus

    And two...

    Pholtus
    The Gran March is not alone in the Flanaess in having an extensive codified system of laws. That the clergy of Pholtus were authors of many of these laws is also nothing unusual. However the near total control the church has over the judicial system of the nation is an anomaly in the Sheldomar Valley. Since before the Knights of the March thundered across the valley, the church of Pholtus has made every effort to bring the military and the people into the Blinding Light.

    National, local, and community governments are dominated by followers of Pholtus, and the clergy are required to serve as both lawyers and judges in the administration of the law. Organization of the land is managed by law, and the law is written and held sacrosanct by the church. Missionaries of Pholtus move into the smaller or more remote communities and help the people to organize themselves into efficient hierarchies and codify their values into law. For hundreds of years the clergy of Pholtus have followed this doctrine, and the Church of the Blinding Light is the official religion of Gran March.

    Old and impressive temples exist in both Lortenford and Shiboleth, though Lortenford is still considered the center of the church in the Gran March. Hookhill, Hollowdel, Harnac, Mareton, Holiford, Dohn Springs, and Murille all boast large and ornate chapels near or within the Baronial holdings. The annexed communities of Hochoch and Mellit’s Wharf are home to smaller, newer, but no less ornate chapels. Prouse, Sereneall, Wallsend and the Watch Fort all proudly display their smaller chapels alongside the town hall or center of government. Even Graven and Souldern, with their small congregations, have huge shrines with stained glass windows, gold leafing, and fine stone construction.

    Members of the Glimmering Order typically include neophyte clerics, government employees such as clerks and scribes, and lay clergy. The Gleaming Order counts lawyers, missionary clerics, baronial advisors, and judges in remote locations among their members. The high priests of the temples, senior judges, cabinet members, and the most notable lawyers are among the select few that belong to the Shining Order. The majority of the government of Gran March reveres Pholtus, but other faiths have made inroads in recent years.

    The Knights of the Watch (and the Knights of the March before them) have a long history of reverence for Heironeous, and the nobility has traditionally cast their lot with the Knights. Though the Church of Pholtus does not like this situation, they have great difficulties breaking these traditions, and are somewhat resigned to a long and difficult task of winning over the nobility. However, the sudden popularity of the heathen Saint Cuthbert is completely unacceptable and extremely worrisome to the clergy of Pholtus. Despite their best legislative efforts and most vigorous proselytizing, the clerics cannot sway the common folk from the siren’s call of the Cudgel. Many non-believers see the church of Pholtus as out of touch with the population, and a little archaic.

    Followers of the Blinding Light regularly clash with those of the Cudgel in heated debates, passionate shouting matches, and even an occasional profanity-laced scuffle. When the Cuthbert-favoring constables haul the offenders before the judge, the sentences are usually stiffer for the Cudgel-lover. However, this has seen fewer charges brought against those revering Saint Cuthbert over Pholtus. The two groups do see pretty much eye-to-eye when any serious crime is committed however, and seem to forget their differences to bring the criminal to justice. After the law has been executed and punishment delivered though, the two are right back in each other’s faces.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:18 pm  
    Heironeous

    And finally...

    Heironeous
    Since the Knights of the March stood against the evil and chaos that threatened the Sheldomar Valley, the church of Heironeous has been strong in the ranks of the military of the Gran March. The nobility contributed some of the greatest knights to the cause, and the most valiant knights were almost always titled. Heironeous served the knights well, meaning that reverence of the Invincible became a proud tradition among both the knights and the nobility. The Knights of the Watch continued this tradition, and other clerics typically found the just and determined knights to be impossibly stubborn in their faith. As the Gran March military developed their own structure and traditions, the influence of Heironeous lessened, but only slightly.

    While the high priests of Heironeous my not be in charge of the Gran March military, the same cannot be said of the Marshals, many of whom make pains to appear at services to Heironeous whatever the situation. Most of their subordinate officers, seeking to avoid displeasing their commanders, attend services at least on a superficial level. This is seen by the conscripted soldiers as tacit approval and acceptance of Heironeous in the ranks, and many of the conscripts follow Him while they are in the service. Additionally, the clerics of Heironeous are not exempt from the mandatory term of seven years service in the Gran March military, and can be found at all levels of command.

    The Fortress Temple of Heironeous at Hookhill is the center of the church in the entire region, not just the Gran March, and is still viewed as the premier training ground of knights and paladins in the entire Sheldomar Valley. Veteran knights from the Fortress Temple can be found training the Church’s faithful, as well as the secular Army of the Gran March’s heavy and medium cavalry and infantry. Any clergy here have fulfilled their conscription obligation to the nation, and are usually seasoned veterans with more than a few war stories and battle scars. The clergy here are virtually indistinguishable from the military, and vice versa, though any assumption that they are the same would be technically incorrect.

    Hochoch and Shiboleth also proudly display their majestic temples, each centuries old, to the Invincible. Harnac, Mareton, and Murille sport smaller temples, though they are only slightly less impressive than those in the cities. Stout chapels can be found in Coverdale, Darras Hall, Dohn Springs, Holiford, Hollowdell, Lortenford, Mellit’s Wharf, Rokeby, and of course the Watch Fort. Locks Heath has a small shrine, owing more to the chapels in surrounding communities than the influence of other religions. In every case, one can expect to find veteran clerics willing to protect the people and stomp out evil. And in every case, forces of Gran March train and maintain a garrison (however small) in the area.

    With every adult male in the Gran March exposed to the teachings of Heironeous, the church understandably has a huge support base among the population. However, in the smaller and safer communities there is less of a need (and presence) for a War God. Worship of Heironeous typically is supplanted by other less militant faiths, but most veterans hold a special place in their heart for the Invincible. Disrespect is not tolerated for long, and is likely to galvanize the veterans into action; usually a painful course of action.

    Other faiths in Gran March are usually not the concern of the Church of Heironeous; His status is nearly unshakeable so other’s is unimportant. Others are watched, but not closely, for signs of promoting evil or injustice. Those that the Church takes note of are dealt with swiftly and mercifully, most often without violence of any sort. For example if followers of Pholtus and Cuthbert clash in the military ranks, their senior officer (usually a follower of Heironeous) steps in. He ends the quarrel, and assigns both sides extra duty. While this does not resolve the underlying issue, it does serve to end the problem from the officer’s point of view. And while the two sides don’t agree, they won’t openly disagree again for fear of greater punishments.

    Rip it up, folks. Smile
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:40 pm  

    From my quick read I really like what you written thus far. After reading Inessa I think her story is subtle enough to keep her under the anti-god radar. There those who will object to adding another god and I am one of them. I think though that her story could work. Congrats on that. St Cuthbert growth in Gran March is a very good angle. My only quibble is that since we are using N1 as the opening to the campaign it states that Orlane benefactor is Merikka and there is not other god mentioned. So I would suggest the Bishops has designs on moving into Orlane but is not made it there yet. Maybe the aftermath of the Reptile God Cult allows for this for this incursion. I definitely like the development of Pholtus and Hieroneous and their involvement in the Army and the KoW
    It makes me think that we could align St. Cuthbert and Pholtus followers with the Nationalist movement in Gran March but their constant bickering hampers it somewhat. The followers of St. Cuthbert and Pholtus would also favour those who wish to lessen the Knights of the Watch's influence in Gran March as a way of lessening Hieroneous’s followers’ strength although the Commandant is a cleric of Hieroneous. But because they are lawful gods they would not support outright rebellion.
    The Gods of course are well removed from the mundane and trivial human issues.
    Also another note since Hookhill is the capital of Gran March I have placed a church of all the major gods in Hookhill some smaller than others. This would be so they can have some influence on the government and be visible to it. There is also a council of clergy where representatives of the Major gods "discuss" the effects of political decision on their members and attempt to "lobby" for their continued influence.
    I will work Inessa in Hookhill with Andy.
    At first glance I says very good work!
    Happy
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:10 am  

    IvorMac,

    Quote:
    My only quibble is that since we are using N1 as the opening to the campaign it states that Orlane benefactor is Merikka and there is not other god mentioned. So I would suggest the Bishops has designs on moving into Orlane but is not made it there yet. Maybe the aftermath of the Reptile God Cult allows for this for this incursion.


    You caught me. IMC, N1 happened years ago, and Cuthbert moved in to the semi-vacuum created by the Cult's destruction. So I didn't even consider that N1 may not have happened yet in this forum. Good catch.

    I totally agree that the Cuthbert and Pholtus factions would love to weaken the influence of Heironeous. But they can't stop bickering, and they don't want to forment a rebellion. Meaning that change will be slow.

    And the only churches I detailed that wouldn't be in Hookhill would be Hextor (SO not allowed) and Obad-Hai (just don't care). The other religions (those not mentioned) should definitely have representation in Hookhill, if for no other purpose than lobbying for more freedom to operate or legitimizing their claims.

    I'm glad you like Inessa. I looked up Zilchus, and he works pretty darn well. But Anced Math was looking for something female. The proxy rules out of DDG 3.0 worked perfect. Viola! A herald with Divine Rank 1, godly powers, but totally dependent on the base god's essence. Inessa is a god that isn't a god. Works nice in the god-heavy Greyhawk.

    Thanks for the good review. Smile
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:13 am  

    Anced Math and I talked about N1 before and decided that since the Module appeared to be timeless we could start with it without any changes. We both want to avaoid "the return to" or "the return of " concept.

    Yes Hextor is not in Hookhill and if fact I had wrote a law for Hookhill.
    "Any followers of Hextor are arrested on site and branded a traitor of the March. The brand is placed on the forehead for all to see. It is three broken arrows in parallel motion."

    I had put in a small contingent of Obad Hai not because they care anything about the city but to watch the decisions made by the government and how they will effect nature. Gran March Govermanet has been pushing development into Dim Forest and cutting a road througn Dim Forest. Something that the Obad Hai supporters would not want. They certainly would not be part of the council I agree. What do you think? Is this possible?
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:40 am  

    Just a quick question. What about Kelannan? In a country with such martial tradtions wouldnt the Hero-God of swords be a logical object of worship? Granted he is only a Hero-God or Demi-God<?> but he would seem to be a solid addition to the local pantheon.

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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:32 pm  

    When I read about Inessa, I could not help but think of the Susan B. Anthony and Sacagawea dollars. It probably would not be appropriate to introduce coinage in honor of Inessa that is notable for its inability to function in the market place, but it might be interesting to have had a limited minting to honor Inessa, with such coins having generally been kept out of circulation, and instead used as a keepsake because they function as pseudo-holy symbols. Perhaps silver instead of gold.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:50 pm  

    Wolfsire,

    I like the coin idea. That crosses out of church/religion and into economy, so I'd bounce it off Anced Math. But like I said, I think it's a cool idea.

    Maraudar,

    I don't know who Kelannan is. Care to fill me in? What publication can I find him in, etc.?

    IvorMac,

    I completely agree with the Obad-Hai druids watching the government. In fact, I was going to propose a fairly-powerful druid who does just that in the NPC section.

    Speaking of NPCs, I was going to start statting up NPCs for the various churches when I realized that I didn't know what I was doing. Uh... that didn't sound right. I mean, am I creating D&D 3.5 NPCs? AD&D? General overview NPCs (moderate warrior, novice priest)?

    If we are going with 3.5 (my recommendation is yes), the only gaps in my knowledge will come from Frostburn and Sandstorm. Which I think we can work around... Smile

    Well Boss-man, what do you think?
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:04 pm  

    FirePower, Info can found on Kelanen in the 2e folder. Cebrion did a write up on him and included sources. also check out this link for further info as well.

    http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/gods/kelanen.html


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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:16 pm  

    I like Wolfsire's idea. It would be like a special issue coin. Definately gives a bit more of a cultural feel to Hookhill. Perhaps it is used to seal important deals.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:19 pm  

    "Seal" could be a wax imprint, a transfer of the coin or both with a coin set in a wax seal. It could even be fictitous as in modern contracts where there is a recital of $1 of consideration, but that might go with less important transaction. "For and in consideration of the terms provided here and one silver Novak, the reciept of which is hereby acknowledge ..."

    "an extensive codified system of laws" got me thinking of how silly things can get. Imagine followers Pholtus and Zilchus gang up and draft the Uniform Commercial Code then fringe elements claim how it together with the Founding Charter of Keoland make everyone a "noble" and make it "legal" for them to avoid paying their taxes. If you don't know what I am talking about, be grateful. Wink
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:49 pm  

    Maraudar,

    After looking at those sources on Kelanen (except Dragon 71), he looks very appropriate for the Gran March except for one area.

    He promotes Balance and the AD&D concept of True Neutrality. While I think this would be fine elsewhere, the Gran March is clearly not just militant, but Lawful. Therefore, I don't see him being as popular as the more lawful deities.

    That said, I think that there is still a place for Kelanen in Gran March. Along with Rao, and Pelor, and Wee Jas, and others. But while there may be a representative in Hookhill or a small monastery-like school in the Lortmils, I don't think he would have much of a presence elsewhere in the nation.

    Unless I'm looking at him totally wrong...
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    Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:14 pm  
    Great Job

    Alright, Lets begin.

    Firepower I want to say to start what a great job you have done and the speed you have penned it out with is fairly amazing.

    So, lets takem as they come:

    Obad-Hai... excellent. I like and understand the take on all of this and it all sounds great. I think we should have a group in the Rushmoors also. I like having a group in Hookhill to watch the government. Unimportant it a DM does not wish to get too deep in politics, but a loaded gun if the do!

    Hextor... excellent except for one item. With a Commandant who is a priest of Heironus, the open temple to Hextor just doesnt fly. However, Ivor and I talked about it, and we think that the Hextor worshippers would have gone just across the river, just beyond the reach of all the Knights and erected as a taunt to the powerless of the knights to destroy it. In the Crusades there were giant fortified ceremonial wagons, that were sometimes pulled into battle, and clerics stood upon them issuing blessings. There is a name for them, but for the life of me I cannot remember at the moment. Anyway, I suggest this be shaped like that, a tall towerlike structure. Then the next time the Knights attempt to sweep the Giants from the field they will do so in the face of sacrifices and holy fire reigned down from up on high. The Knights know that Hextorians from within the city slip off to worship, but they dont know who they are?


    I really enjoyed Inessa, and I think that, should time permit, she deserves even more fleshing out. In many ways she is more compelling than Zilchus. I think we should play her in role similar to the Virgin Mary played for Constantinople. She was more often reveared than God or Christ. Not that she ever usurped them, or they were not revered, she was just more accesible.

    With her, we cam add descriptions of the conversations she has had in the past with the faithful and you suddenly begin to have a pantheon within a pantheon. A real doctrine of faith, rather than a Doman, which is a simple game mechanic. Which, IMO, is how religions should tend to develop. From a commoners perspective, many gods may be good; from a devout priests perspective, many gods may be acceptable; from the politically astute priests perspective, many gods are good only as false idols to be torn down. Therefore, I would, eventually like to detail the basilica of St. Inessa in Shiboleth, or some such. We can work on that as time permits. Again, great job. Also, in our D20 supplement section we will reference Legends and Lairs Small gods section, which details the mechanics of handling a worshipper of the less than total divine. Maybe she can grant a few basic spells, not as a cleric, but upon a prayer for healing, the petitioner is healed for example.

    I liked Cuthbert, he has always been a favorite. The only thing lacking here, i think, is a good strong description/definition of the Church and its heirarchy. I think this is something that applies to each of these entires, but you touch on it in this piece which is why I bring it up. How does the Dioscese play into the overarching church, or does it? Do Cuthbertites all answer to the Bishop in Hochoch? Lets dig in a little deeper in this area. Having a boss and someone watching would change the behaviour of many a priest I have played with in the past.

    Also, since you touch on it under the Cuthbert entry, I should make you aware that we are drafting the Laws of the March. These allow a variety of different things, one of which would be priest being a judge in a case involving a priest, or in a town whose charter was granted to a temple. Anyway, I will need to send you those email as soon as they get past a first draft.

    Pholtus... I think we need to revise this a little to say that, "IF Gran March had a state religion, it may well be that of Pholtus." However, I think Heironus would also vie for this seat, and we should discuss it. However, when you see the Laws, I think you will understand where we are coming from, and how it can weave into what you have written very well. I think that the general distrust of Keoland for churches would, as a legacy, prevent a Church such as that of Pholtus from being institionalized.

    Heironus...well this is the second best after Inessa. It hits on all points and I like it very much. The relationship of the Miliatry and the Priests is interesting, and i think we should run with that. After all, it may well give a priest a strong political influence over the strongest of the Institutions (again, see laws). You better check with Ivor and see if he created a Hieronian Church in the middle of Hookhill. I think it is mostly drawn.

    We need to flesh out these Churches, their high holy days, and their priesthood structure. Also, we need to have brief descriptions of how these churches impact daily life, or is the worship reserved for High Holy Days.

    Onward... I think there has to be a shrine in Hookhill, though not necessarily a temple, to Kelanen. Oddly, Ivor and I had discussed this prior to reading the post. Many soldiers go and pray just before going into battle? Sounds good.

    I will try and put in more later, but thanks again Firepower, excellent job.

    There is much more on these that I want to discuss,
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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:23 am  

    Not a problewm FirePower. I do think he would have a following among knights and soldiers though just for the aspect of perfection that he repesents in regards to swords. It would be a small following to be sure. Most weapon masters and trainers would probably invoke him while teaching them the blade. Oh and another thing. Wanted to compliment you, IvorMac and Anced-Math on the iincredible job you've all done so far. Gran March has been and alwayswill be my favorite realm.

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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:45 am  

    Thanks for the praise AM. I think it's a bit premature, but that's just me... Smile

    Points of discussion:
    Quote:
    Hextor... excellent except for one item. With a Commandant who is a priest of Heironus, the open temple to Hextor just doesnt fly. However, Ivor and I talked about it, and we think that the Hextor worshippers would have gone just across the river, just beyond the reach of all the Knights and erected as a taunt to the powerless of the knights to destroy it.


    Nice. I was thinking that Hochoch, not officially part of Gran March, might be able to get away with a Hextor temple. But across the river is even better. Way worse than "the other side of the tracks", one takes their life in their hands when they cross the Realstream. Bleak, desolate, dangerous. Sounds like fun.

    Quote:
    I really enjoyed Inessa, and I think that, should time permit, she deserves even more fleshing out.


    Not a problem here. We can go all CotVM with her, or whatever. She's not in any book, so we're in unexplored territory. Should be interesting to see what we come up with.

    Quote:
    I liked Cuthbert, he has always been a favorite. The only thing lacking here, i think, is a good strong description/definition of the Church and its heirarchy. I think this is something that applies to each of these entires, but you touch on it in this piece which is why I bring it up.


    Ah, he senses my uncertainity! Yeah, I wasn't sure how deep I should go with the Big Three, since I figured that they would play into other parts of the project. I was going to come up with a heirarchy for each (they ARE all Lawful), but I didn't want it to feel like an "add on". I'll have to revisit those notes.

    Quote:
    Also, since you touch on it under the Cuthbert entry, I should make you aware that we are drafting the Laws of the March.


    Oooh. Must. Have. Laws.

    Quote:
    You better check with Ivor and see if he created a Hieronian Church in the middle of Hookhill. I think it is mostly drawn.


    I figured as much. Renaming the Fortress Temple is easy, and I kept the description and location deliberately vague. I think there is a draft map of the city, but I didn't have it to reference most of the time, so I was less than detailed.

    Quote:
    We need to flesh out these Churches, their high holy days, and their priesthood structure. Also, we need to have brief descriptions of how these churches impact daily life, or is the worship reserved for High Holy Days.


    This may be too much detail, but what about sacraments? Coronation is out per se, but something similar could be neat. Weddings, funerary rites, christenings, entering the priesthood, etc. could all give a lot of detail to the project, but is it too much?

    Then there's typical services on Godsday, the high holy days, maybe a holy month or two (think Ramadan or Lent), and the local mythologies that tie in to each religion. We can link the GM churches in with the larger (regional or world) religion and structure. Throw in a couple of GM-specific PrCs, and give each sect an NPC or two or three.

    It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go... Smile
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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:12 am  

    Maraudar,

    Now you've gone and done it. More ideas!

    Quote:
    I do think he would have a following among knights and soldiers though just for the aspect of perfection that he repesents in regards to swords. It would be a small following to be sure. Most weapon masters and trainers would probably invoke him while teaching them the blade.


    I was thinking that the strict and lawful churches wouldn't like "their" knights talking about other gods. But then you went and planted a seed in my head with that invoking comment. What if he (Kelanen) became part of an oath (swearing)? Military guys LOVE profanity! I know I do. Happy Throw that in, and it makes Kelanen one of those things that just doesn't go away, even if no one knows why anymore.

    "Give yer heart to yer mum, an yer soul to Invincible, but yer arm belongs to Kelanen!"

    "We need Kelanen's edge" (i.e., we're screwed, or we need a miracle)

    "Looks like Kelanen's target" (i.e., all... fouled... up)

    "Kaysbane!" from "Kelanen's bane!" (something that blunts, i.e., a blockhead or a very stupid move)

    Ugh. I must be tired. I'm sure this will look ridiculous in the morning.
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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:54 am  
    Praise

    Well, maybe it is bit premature, but the rough draft was above expectations, so my hopes are high for the final product. As a matter of fact, I think this might well be as good a supplement as has ever been put out for Greyhawk.

    The work that has been done so far by everyone is stellar, so we just need to push on through.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:48 am  

    Doesnt look bad at all FirePower. Hell half of the trainers Ive had in the past all used swearing to get thier points across. And seeing as the trainers for basic weapons training would most likely common men not nobility or even gentry, their use of Kelanen's name would be very likely. And I have to say I love the oaths Laughing . As you can see I am a big fan of Kelanen.

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    Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:04 pm  

    Okay, it's been a while, huh?

    Opinion question; do I post the updated church information here, or do I send it to someone smarter than me for a web-link?

    The paper is 7 pages. Without Pholtus and Heironeous finished. And without the NPCs statted out for 3.5.

    Yes, if the decision is to post here, I will break it down by church again.

    The last two churches should be done by... Wait. What's my deadline again? Wink
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    Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:27 am  

    Quote:
    The last two churches should be done by... Wait. What's my deadline again?


    Ahhhhh the evil deadlines... My boss see4ms to think a deadline is an appropriate to tool to nag me with Mad .. But then I go back to sleep as drones on and all is well again.


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    Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:28 pm  

    I think a web link would be fine FirePower.
    Deadlines!! we have hard deadlines??!! Shocked

    Seriously, we do want to try to finish this in about a year but there is not a hard deadline for anything. I hear people have things called lives. Happy
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    Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:00 pm  

    Okay, a web link it is.

    Hopefully somebody knows how to set one up, because I haven't a clue. Embarassed

    Any help?
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:55 pm  

    Alrighty FirePower. I have your churches document ready to go for internet viewing. Cool

    The file is clean, but I know some people aren't all that excited about downloading and/or opening files from the net so I put your text on a page right here with proper credit and linkage back to your ID here at CF!

    http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

    Or if you want the doc itself for download I can also put that link up. I hesistated to do it because it did not have any author credits on it. I can put your info on it but I cannot edit a word doc without changing the format to a Microsoft Works Word Processor Document and I wasn't sure if that would be okay or not. Anyhoo, here you go. Happy
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:39 pm  

    Tedra,

    Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Happy

    Don't sweat author credits and so forth; this is a draft to be ripped apart by everyone. Besides, I really don't care if someone rips me off. The Big Guys did it in '95, no one here can do worse. Smile

    So, anyhow. Everyone take a look. I'm working out some NPCs, but otherwise what you see is what I've got.

    Tear it up, folks. Smile
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:51 pm  

    I am looking forward to it. Thanks both of you.
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:51 pm  

    Okay, here's the link to the .doc if anyone wants to save it

    http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc

    And you are most welcome FP, lemme know if you want to add anything. Wink
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:08 pm  

    Will do, Tedra.

    I'll probably hit you up when I finish the NPCs, but that won't be for a week or so I'd imagine.

    Thanks again! Happy
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    Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:28 pm  

    Thanks Tedra for Helping FirePower. Very Kind of you! Cool
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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:06 pm  

    IvorMac,

    I wanted to bounce the NPC "standards" off of you before I attached them to the Churches. Don't want a 3.5 Cleric/Sorcerer when you're set up for AD&D...

    So I'm running through with 3.5 rules and a 28-point buy. I build them up to an appropriate level complete with stats, skills, feats, abilities, and favorite spells (if applicable). From there I'll work up a very detailed profile and physical description.

    The Angel Tedra Smile has offered to help out with illustrating the NPCs, though I think I could hack something reasonable together if she's overloaded.

    Anything else you'd like to see in the NPC portion? For example, if you wanted stats for the same NPC for AD&D and 2nd Ed and 3.0 and 3.5, I can swing that, too.
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22 am  

    IvorMac wrote:
    Thanks Tedra for Helping FirePower. Very Kind of you!


    Most welcome. Not a problem at all. Smile

    FirePower wrote:
    The Angel Tedra has offered to help out with illustrating the NPCs, though I think I could hack something reasonable together if she's overloaded.


    Don't worry. Not overloaded yet. Wink On my plate so far are female clothing styles in the GM, a few NPC's for tiger Ivor, and a few for you. Not in the red yet. Cool
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:30 am  

    The campaign is in 3.5 format. I think that since many people play different versions in CF if you want to provide various editions styles then feel free to do so. The major focus should be 3.5.

    If your NPCs are as good as your write up on the Churches then I sure they will be very good. When you say appropriate level what are you levels are you considering?
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:40 am  

    Quote:
    If your NPCs are as good as your write up on the Churches then I sure they will be very good. When you say appropriate level what are you levels are you considering?


    Everything from the Priestess of Merikka from N1 (5th, I think) to the Holy General of Heironeous (PAL6/CLC9) and the Pholtian Archbishop of Shiboleth and the Northern Sheldomar Valley (CLC12).
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:44 pm  

    That sounds good I have a done a 3.5 edition spread sheet for NPC level in the cities if oyu want to have a look.
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:32 pm  

    IvorMac,

    I DEFINITELY want to see that sheet!

    I worked up something that gives NPC levels off of the Town Demographics tables in the DMG, but I'm just not very happy with it. I'd love to see something better... mine's too clunky.
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:36 pm  

    Hey Everybody!

    PLEASE take a look at the file Tedra hosted for me.

    I want to know everyone's thought's on what I've got up there. No, I don't want praise; I want criticisms. I want complaints. I want people to point out the glaring errors I've made and wonder aloud at where my head is located.

    Okay, maybe not that last part. Smile But give me some input so I can make this thing better.

    Thanks.
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:08 pm  

    It is hard to find much to complain about.

    Depending on how the rest of the Gazetteer looks, it may be too long. I generally prefer more information, but if it is much larger than any other section it might need to be cut back. A summary or introduction would be in order.

    You might have to wait for AncedMath to make some decisions, but I think the Church of Obad-Hai should say more about how it is dealing with the refugees. You nailed that with Hextor and Cuthbert, but you have the Shalm emphasized in the areas where most might be concentrated.

    I have no idea of the canon on this, but assuming it can be changed, I did not like in the Church of Pholtus: “The Cardinal of the Sheldomar Valley … answers directly to Wintershiven, … his superior.” When you couple that with “National, local, and community governments are dominated by followers of Pholtus” you could end up with Gran March being a puppet of the Pale, unless the Cardinal has no control over his Archbishops. I would think there would be something more like Eastern v. Western orthodox. I think distance and the history of the two nations would support that.
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:46 pm  

    Quote:
    I have no idea of the canon on this, but assuming it can be changed, I did not like in the Church of Pholtus: “The Cardinal of the Sheldomar Valley … answers directly to Wintershiven, … his superior.” When you couple that with “National, local, and community governments are dominated by followers of Pholtus” you could end up with Gran March being a puppet of the Pale, unless the Cardinal has no control over his Archbishops. I would think there would be something more like Eastern v. Western orthodox. I think distance and the history of the two nations would support that.


    Interesting. I hadn't thought of an Eastern/Western schism. Strong, centralized church in the Pale. Strong, but less centralized church in the west. Let me think on that one a bit, but I like where it's headed.

    Generally, I dislike the philosophy of Pholtus and his followers. So much so that IMC I replaced Pholtus with Saint Cuthbert in the Pale. But that's a tangent we don't need to travel.
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    Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:26 pm  

    Personally I feel you have misunderstood the Pholtian Church in regards towards the Pale, the Pholtus church already has a schism so an east-west one is unnecessary.

    The Church of Pholtus mainstream faith is “the blinding light” LG (LN), while the Pale sect “the one true path” (LN) is concentrated within the Theocracy of the Pale.

    Think of the Pale as Puritans, they left the former Great Kingdom for the isolated north (their new world), isolating themselves so they could practice their stricter, purer pholtian worship without being corrupted by the “compromised” mainstream church found within Aerdy.

    The “blinding light” mainsteam pholtian church views the Pale’s zealots “one true path” doctrine as misguided and intolerant (which is saying something because the mainstream faith adherents are themselves hardly open minded), while the Pale church views the “blinding light” doctrine as morally weak and corrupt.

    The schism is very real, with little or no communication between the two churches but has not reached open violence because both sides are confident of victory and reconciliation, once the pale zealots see the light and soften their views or the blinding light follows the shining example taking place within the pale.

    The “one true path” sect is primarily confined to the theocracy of the pale but since the wars, has taken a very agressive stance towards its immediate neighbours (Tehna and northern Nyrond), obviously the Pholtian faith of Gran March should be the mainstream “blinding light” faith.

    IMO there is no pan national Pholtian church or arguably any other (possible exception druids) since the successions from the GK, most faiths became national, simply put the churches of the same faiths may have friendly relations with fellow believers and even seek too quietly support mutual cooperation but if war is declared between their nations both churches would support their troops and war effort.

    So even if the GM church of Pholtus is of the “One true faith” can’t see how given the distance from the pale, The Cardinal of the Sheldomar wouldn’t answer directly to Wintershiven in any case, at most he would consult and work too bring closer relations between GM and the Pale.

    Just a thought, sorry too be so critical.

    Do I need a blindfold?
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    Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:11 am  

    You certainly don't need a blindfold, Crag. No executions here. Sad Wait. Mad Ugh... hold it. Smile There we go.

    I think that you and Wolfsire are basically saying the same thing: the Pholtian church in Pale and the Pholtian church in GM shouldn't be connected. You've got more detail, and expounded on the logic, but the message is the same.

    I'd have to say I agree. My corundrum is deciding how the church interacts with the "other" Pholtian sects. Is it shattered like Earth's christianity or muslim religions? Is it a trans-national or regional or national or local entity? Is there a central focal point for the religion akin to the Vatican or Mecca?

    That's the 800-pound gorilla I'm wrestling with. TSR had an aversion to making any religious comparisons in the 80's (for some reason), so background material is kind of sparse. There may have been an article in Dragon #2 that you remember reading that dealt with this very subject. So the insights are always welcome. Cool
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    Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:57 pm  

    Given the aversion of mixing church and state in the history of Keoland, but the redirection of that in the March that is developing for the Gazetteer, I think it would be appropriate to have a Church of Pholtus for the whole Sheldomar that is loosely organized around the Church in the March. As Craig points, that need not be, and perhaps should not be about belief, but rather about structure in response to the environment.

    For the Sheldomar, I could see a College of Cardinals without a Pope, but with the Archbishop of the March being the first among equals. Perhaps he could be called the Cardinal Primus, but cannot give orders outside of the March or the College, although any request would be likely honored. The College itself would only have such authority as its members agreed, so kicking out a member would not, by any church law, remove a bishop from office, but might result in that as a practical matter.

    Although they would be of lesser distinction in such an organization, the other bishops would welcome participation as a Cardinal because it would add to their limited authority in Keoland. This lack of authority would be particularly accented, more so than for any other church, given the power structure in the Pale, even thought that is considered an aberration. Keoland is an aberration, and by contrast the March, and the clergy would want to organize around a strong point. I cannot speak with any authority for the other Sheldomar states, but I would suspect they still have separation issues and you are not going to find anything like the power of the Church of Pholtus in the March.

    A bonus side of the loosely organized concept is that it can be ignored outside the March as the winds blow, whether you are taking about how a DM who wants to manage the other states without reference to this Gazetteer, or for one that uses this Gazetteer, and you are talking about changing political winds in the other states.

    As for anything outside the Sheldomar, only “friendly relations” sounds right to me.
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    Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:35 am  
    Executions

    Actually I think we need a few executions. Lets start with the guy who requires a person to return from Vacation. Yall tie him up, I want to do the shooting.

    Now that I am back, though, I really like what has been done here. I think that the Church of Pholtus should be independant, at least from the Church in hte East, in the Pale and the Great Kingdom.

    In general, the people of the Sheldomar are much more secular than in some other places (Veluna comes to mind, as does the Pale). I think that their churches would reflect this. I do like the idea though, of the March being a religious center (particularly for Pholtus) as it is the Most religious of these lands. I kind of see it as the difference between the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Churches.

    I am about to open a thread on the Laws of the Land, hopefully today. You will see, though, that my thoughts on the Law does not include the Participation developed by your work Firepower, and we will need to reconcile the two.
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    Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:29 am  

    Oh crap! He's back from vacation! Quick! Everyone back to work!

    Laughing

    WB, recently-lounging-in-the-islands one. Smile
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    Mon May 02, 2005 6:25 pm  
    Hey There

    Hey there Firepower! Hope you are well. I wanted to follow up on the religions and how it was coming togeather. Have you had any time to add some structure to some of the Churches. I found the discussion in this thread of various church structures fascinating, and wondered where you were going to take it.

    Talk with you soon.
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    Mon May 02, 2005 10:31 pm  

    Hey all,

    I hope to have something up next week. This week is out as I am still away from home (and my books, my notes, my PC, my...)

    So look for more on the churches next week. Hopefully I can sweet talk the angel of assistance (that's Tedra Smile ) into helping out with the posting-of-the-file-thingy.

    But for now, duty calls. Confused
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    Tue May 03, 2005 12:25 pm  

    FirePower wrote:
    So look for more on the churches next week. Hopefully I can sweet talk the angel of assistance (that's Tedra ) into helping out with the posting-of-the-file-thingy.


    Whenever you're ready, FP, just send an email over with your info. I'll be glad to assist with the file-thingy-posting. Wink
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    Thu May 19, 2005 10:44 am  

    Okay, I'm back.

    Military duty was a little more involved than I originally thought. Confused

    I should have church stuff up by Monday night.

    With Tedra's help, of course... Wink
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    Thu May 19, 2005 3:39 pm  

    Just send me an email FP and I'll upload it and post a link for the update. Cool
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    Mon May 23, 2005 9:18 pm  

    Monday night, and Tedra has the updated file in her hot little hands. Smile

    I hope to have the Church NPCs finished by tomorrow night.

    And now it's back to work for me!

    Your task, dear reader, is to look at the file with a critical eye and post your comments here.
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    Tue May 24, 2005 8:11 am  

    Just one thought. Since we have used LGG as a guideline should we not also write up the other two major influential gods in Gran March, Fharlanghn and Phyton?
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    Tue May 24, 2005 3:49 pm  

    What the!?!?

    (flip, flip, flip)

    GAAAAHH!!!!

    Okay, I can do this. I only missed Fharlanghn and Phyton.

    Guess I should look at the book, rather than my notes, once in a while. Embarassed
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    Tue May 24, 2005 3:54 pm  

    Okay, just got in from work and I think I've done it right. I simply rewrote the page at http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

    So stop over and check it out. The file can be downloaded here:

    http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc

    Enjoy! Cool
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    Tue May 24, 2005 6:56 pm  

    Okay, let's try this again... Embarassed

    The new, improved, economy-sized Churches of Gran March has been delivered (sorry Tedra). Now with more Fharlanghn! Made with the space-age ingredient Phyton! Don't miss this opportunity! Laughing

    As always, I'm open to suggestions, comments, criticisms, and out-and-out objections. Smile

    BTW, good catch on that IvorMac. Displaying the benefits of teamwork and all that.

    Now I'm back to work on the NPCs. They'll probably be up by tomorrow night.
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    Wed May 25, 2005 3:27 pm  

    Not a problem FP. Now updated with Fharlanghn and Phyton. Happy

    http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

    New file:
    http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc
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    Fri May 27, 2005 7:30 pm  

    Tedra,

    I should have the NPCs done tonight, but they'll probably go on Yabasuma's new site.

    But I was wondering if you'd like to collaborate on some NPC art? I've got 13 NPCs, and I think that between you and I we can come up with some pretty kick-arse sketches.

    Whaddya think?
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    Fri May 27, 2005 8:14 pm  

    I'd love to, FP. Just let me know! Cool
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    Mon May 30, 2005 8:54 pm  

    Hey all,

    The Churches are done*

    Yabs and Tedra should have the file in their collective hot little hands now.

    Look it over and punch holes in it. Smile

    But remember that the NPCs were written for the lowest common denominator; 3.5 PHB and DMG and LGG were the only tools I used on the NPCs. I wasn't looking for optimization, but showing a ready-to-use example for the end-user.


    *actual doneness of document may vary based on comments, criticisms, complaints, typographical errors, spell-checking, continuity errors, bone-headedness, planetary alignment, and day of the week. Dealer sets actual retail price.
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    Mon May 30, 2005 10:43 pm  

    mmm small print Laughing
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    Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:13 pm  

    No comments?
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    Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:56 pm  
    Firepower

    Hey Firepower,

    I dont know about everyone else, but I have been diligently trying to finish something, any thing that I have assigned myself in this little adventure. I will read the churches this weeked, and get you some comments.

    Sorry about the delay, I have been lax at finishing anything.
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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:50 pm  

    Hey all,

    Just wanted to give you a heads-up. Military duty calls yet again, so response times will be exceptionally spotty for the next two-to-three weeks. Things should stabilize a little at the end of the month, but hope to have some free time to work on some projects between now and then.

    Maybe even get a few NPC sketches to Tedra. Cool

    Your Advisor on Spiritual Matters (LOVE that title! Happy ),
    FirePower
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    Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:20 pm  
    GM Holidays

    I am not sure that this post strictly belongs here, but for Postfest II, GVD made made some specific Holidays for GM, or specifically referenced GM in holidays under these headings:

    The Caltaran Horse Fair
    The Gran National
    The Lost in the Dark Bells
    The Night of Fear
    Riding the Marches

    There are also some that he designed for all of GH, or were otherwise relevant under these headings:

    Courts Leet and Baron
    Crabapple Fairs
    Feast of All Souls
    Feast of the Gods
    The Royal Hunt
    The Royal Progress
    Rushbearing & Haystrewing
    Sorcerers Night
    Summer Carnival
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    Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:08 am  

    Now we just need to include these with his permission of course... Cool
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