Tharizdun was imprisoned in circa 330 OR or -315 CY. In other words, just around the time of the founding of the City of Greyhawk. See tAB p. 56. Don't belive me? Click the link and read the details.
In short, one of the human heroes of the campaign to imprison Tharizdun was Dardallion of Greyhawk. To be so named, Greyhawk had to exist at the time of Tharizdun's imprisonment because Dardallion is identified as being from Greyhawk. Or I suppose you could date Tharizdun's imprisonment to an earlier period, say, the founding of Geoff! Again, this is derived from one of the human heroes of the campaign to imprison Big T - Lord Marshal Sir Reikhardt of Geoff. See generally Complete Champion at p. 65.
Anyway you slice it, Big T was imprisoned sometime since the Great Migrations, not sometime back in prehistory. Who knew?
This is just the juiciest piece of GH fact contained in the Complete Champion. 3X may be just about history but that 3x GH default is not going down without a fight! _________________ GVD
Last edited by GVDammerung on Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Whose bright idea was that? Geez, WotC never ceases to amaze me...usually in a bad way.
Is there room to interpret it as saying that those two heroes were merely involved in one of Tharizdun's many attempts at escape? Does it clearly state that they were involved in his original imprisonment?
You know, to my taste, the Imprisonment of Big T was something the Gods did a LOOONG time ago, definately pre-Cats.
If this were pushed on me, I would say that the titles are things that were ascribed to the heroes later..."Dardallion of Greyhawk" was, at the time of the Imprisonment, simply called Dardallion the Bold. She was from the region of the Nyr Dyv, became a cult hero, and much later was adopted by the city of Greyhawk as a patron saint under the name of ..."Dardallion of Greyhawk", in a manner similar to that of King Arthur becoming King of England or Saint James becoming Saint James of Compostella or Saint Peter becoming the Bishop of Rome.
If this were pushed HARD on me, I would say that the gods needed all the help they could get, and opened up a possibility war by reaching into the future and bringing back some heroes from the could be...if Zagig can time travel back, I think the gods could pull someone out of the future. By those very actions though, they may have insured that most of those heroes didn't come to be in their own times, or that the times that would produce them, various possible futures, did not end up happening.
Perhaps this is where they had the advantage over Big T. Once T decided to make his power play, there were two possible kinds of futures, some in which he won and some in which he lost. In those in which he lost, he did not have powerful followers because he could not support them. In the futures in which he won, he did not have powerful followers, because as the lord of entropy and destuction, there simply was not much left but barren waste. By his own nature he had limited his potential followers.
While the other gods did not have powerful followers in the futures in which T won, they DID have powerful followers in the futures in which he lost, as they still would have worldly concerns that required powerful followers.
So their decisive advantage over T was opening up the theatre of the war to allow recruitment from the future: once that was allowed, T was sunk. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I have reviewed the Complete Divine here, and guess what? ... See generally Complete Divine at p. 65...
It seems to me that your above cited review is of Wizards of the Coast's Complete Champion, not Complete Divine.
Anyway, I believe Daren Drader provided most of the erroneous information on Tharizdun for both products. How seriously can you take these people when they indicate that Tharizdun's favored weapon is "check toee"? And that is a quote from Complete Divine.
I'd stick with the long standing, commonly held belief that the Dark God was subdued and imprisoned by a coalition of the other gods eons before the Oerth was fully formed and millennia before man and elf trod upon her ground.
I swear, Wizards makes my job of parodying their material too easy sometimes. Sheesh!
I'd set this book, fluff wise, right next to your copy of Rose Estes novels. The author clearly knew little of Hawk events and probably only heard of the proper names for city of Greyhawk from its many publications and Geoff from the Liberation of Geoff. I guess if one was really backed into a corner by his players over this fluff, I'd say it was one real cool time travelling adventure that Boccob and Istus pulled these heroes into for some off handed reason.
Gotta love those offhand Greyhawk references thrown into the splat books. There are more than a few mistakes in "canon". Here is just one more instance of it. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
It seems to me that your above cited review is of Wizards of the Coast's Complete Champion, not Complete Divine.
Anyway, I believe Daren Drader provided most of the erroneous information on Tharizdun for both products. How seriously can you take these people when they indicate that Tharizdun's favored weapon is "check toee"? And that is a quote from Complete Divine.
I'd stick with the long standing, commonly held belief that the Dark God was subdued and imprisoned by a coalition of the other gods eons before the Oerth was fully formed and millennia before man and elf trod upon her ground.
Don (Greyson)
Nyrond Triad
You are correct. My error. It is the COMPLETE CHAMPION. I have corrected the entries in this thread and that! Thanks for catching this. I was under Big T's spell there for a moment! _________________ GVD
Whose bright idea was that? Geez, WotC never ceases to amaze me...usually in a bad way.
Is there room to interpret it as saying that those two heroes were merely involved in one of Tharizdun's many attempts at escape? Does it clearly state that they were involved in his original imprisonment?
The reference is directly to his original imprisonment. But I think Kirt has a good idea.
Kirt wrote:
If this were pushed HARD on me, I would say that the gods needed all the help they could get, and opened up a possibility war by reaching into the future and bringing back some heroes from the could be...if Zagig can time travel back, I think the gods could pull someone out of the future. By those very actions though, they may have insured that most of those heroes didn't come to be in their own times, or that the times that would produce them, various possible futures, did not end up happening.
Perhaps this is where they had the advantage over Big T. Once T decided to make his power play, there were two possible kinds of futures, some in which he won and some in which he lost. In those in which he lost, he did not have powerful followers because he could not support them. In the futures in which he won, he did not have powerful followers, because as the lord of entropy and destuction, there simply was not much left but barren waste. By his own nature he had limited his potential followers.
While the other gods did not have powerful followers in the futures in which T won, they DID have powerful followers in the futures in which he lost, as they still would have worldly concerns that required powerful followers.
So their decisive advantage over T was opening up the theatre of the war to allow recruitment from the future: once that was allowed, T was sunk.
This sort of time travel possibility was my immediate thought to explain the citation. _________________ GVD
Gotta love those offhand Greyhawk references thrown into the splat books. There are more than a few mistakes in "canon". Here is just one more instance of it.
Actually, it is not offhanded. There is quite an extensive writeup on the Six from Shadow - the humans who helped imprison Big T.
mortellan wrote:
Whhhaaaaaat?
I swear, Wizards makes my job of parodying their material too easy sometimes. Sheesh!
I'd set this book, fluff wise, right next to your copy of Rose Estes novels.
I'm not going to do that, right off. The time travel angle, I think, saves the references from that fate.
But yeah. The parody practically leaps off the page suggesting itself. _________________ GVD
I noticed this a few months ago. The legend of the Six From Shadow is just that - a legend - and it might not all be literally true.
"Dardallion of Greyhawk" might be associated with Greyhawk in contemporary folklore, but what else are unlettered minstrels supposed to call the Domain of Greyhawk in the time before the cataclysms? They don't have another name for it. "Dardallion of the land currently known as Greyhawk" doesn't really roll off the tongue, does it? "Dardallion of Proto-Greyhawk" seems an awkward sobriquet. It seems like it might screw with the ballad's meter. The same is true of our Geoffite friend. Legends are full of anachronisms, anyway - look at the Mallory's version of King Arthur, for example, which describes places that manifestedly didn't exist in 5th century Europe.
The strongest likelihood is that Tharizdun's prison only weakened during the time of the Six From Shadow - that his influence over the world grew during this period (perhaps allowing him to create the Scorpion Crown), and they simply resealed it before he could entirely escape. If I recall correctly, this doesn't even require stretching the book's wording.
If you're talking about 3e canon, we know for sure that Tharizdun was imprisoned during the Age Before Ages, before the Battle of Pesh. Recall this excerpt from the Monster Manual IV:
"Long ago, both good and evil deities allied against Tharizdun, who seeks the annihilation of all reality, and sealed the god in a mighty prison. The evergreedy Princes of Elemental Evil, too young to remember that ancient war, allowed their ambition to blind them to Tharizdun's deception..." [Emphasis mine]
The Princes of Elemental Evil are too young to remember that war? But they seem to recall the Battle of Pesh perfectly well, if we're to believe the recent articles on the Princes of Elemental Evil and Elemental Good in Dragon Magazine, and the Age of Worms adventure path, all of which mention their participation on both sides of the long war between the Wind Dukes and the hosts of Chaos. These are ancient, ancient beings, among the oldest still extant; it seems likely that there weren't any humans or even elves around in those long-gone days. Even humanoid demons, such as succubi and Graz'zt, didn't manifest from the sins of mortals until after the war was over. Certainly, the vast majority of the gods of Oerth are incalculably young compared to the archomentals - Boccob, Istus, Pelor, Lendor, and Nerull were probably around during the binding of Tharizdun, but not many others.
So, really, no, I don't think this makes a recent imprisonment of Tharizdun (a mere few centuries ago) canon. It's possible that Dardallion really did come from Greyhawk City, and Tharizdun's prison may have been weak enough during that period for him to release an aspect or avatar of sorts, but we don't even have to assume that much.
I would agree that if it actually says, "The Six From Shadow are the ones who imprisoned Tharizdun," this is canon in the broad sense, though certainly not definitive.
Last edited by rasgon on Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:36 am; edited 4 times in total
Does it say big T, perhaps it was only an aspect the heroes imprisioned.
That is one large square peg to fit especially since it strains the pact between the gods the very basis of GH divine order. Big T imprisonment was the reason the deities came to an agreement.
Just to stir the pot, here's some older canon regarding Tharizdun's imprisonment. From Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, p. 4 (relevant portions italicized):
"The deity Tharizdun is a being of pure destructive force, of cold, conclusive obliteration and utterly evil nihilism. So terrible is he that in eons past, all the other deities banded together against him. But even their combined might was insufficient to destroy him, and they were forced merely to banish him to a special prison plane."
'Twould seem either we have to accept the time travel theory above or else come up with some other explanation. Once again, WotC designers screwed up and we're left trying to fix it. Anybody surprised?
This actually meshes pretty well with EGG's comments on the imprisoning of Tharizdun himself eons past vs. the imprisoning of Tharizdun's avatar in the more recent past.
The exact quote from the Complete Champion is paragraphs long but here is the pertinent part for now, I think -
"Many ages past, the Mad God Tharizdun and his cult of lunatics threatened to destroy the entire known world. In an alliance unheard of before or since, the various deities and their priesthoods put aside their enmites and moved as one against the forces of the Lord of Entropy. And while the deities struggled to imprison Tharizdun in a distant realm, a veritable army of heroes of every faith matched into battle against his cult.
When the chaos had faded and the dust had settled from the air, only six remained of this army of thousands. From the shadow of Tharizdun's greatest temple came the clever Dardallion of Greyhawk, the devout Imdastri of the Heavens, the sagely Ktolemagne the Sky-Reader, the relentless Orsos the Black, the brutish but brilliant Sunyartra of the Eight-Fingers, and Lord Marshal Sir Reikhardt of Geoff. These heroes became known as the Six from Shadow . . ."
The details go on and there are further details scattered throughout the Complete Divine as relates to the Six from Shadow.
Point is - this is not presented as a legend. It is presented as a fact. The modern day followers of the Six from Shadow are called Disciples of Legend but the Six from Shadow are presented as factual, historical figures not misty "might have been" legends.
Given Bubbagump's and Rasgon's quotes about Big T, I think Kirt's time travel idea is probably the only way to make sense of the Six from Shadow.
Of course, GH has it time cops in the Monitors of Infinity. Maybe the Six from Shadow were Monitors of Infinity or working for them? This would avoid the gods having to pull in help from the future, if the Monitors did it for them.
I really think we have established language confirming the fact that Tharizdun was imprisoned long ago, before the ages of men and elves on Oerth.
As ably noted above, perhaps Dardallion and company's exploits benefited from the lack of accurate information. The reports of their deeds were exaggerated as they emerged from whatever dungeon the found "Tharizdun" in. The name Tharizdun was simply mentioned and the tale took on a life of its own. The clever and dangerous traps the party overcome were probably exaggerated, too, as were the actions of the "heroes." The exact nature and personality of the evil being they encountered was certainly caught up as the deeds of the delve were retold over and over again.
The truth is less spectacular. Dardallion's party found something Tharizdun-ish, a spawn of the Dark God. A horror of this nature appears in Dungeon 121. At the end of Richard Pett's "The Styes", the heroes find and fight a spawn of Tharizdun - a tentacled, darkly magical nightmare hiding in the depths of Landgrave's Folly underwater.
There are certainly some twisted spawn of the Dark God like this creeping in the dark places of the multiverse. When there is no unholy priest to serve as a receptacle for the whispers of Tharizdun's power, emanations of his black will pervert and malform whatever life it can blight.
Sure, Dardallion and company fought something. They may have locked up something malevolently dark and tentacled underground. It might have been tattooed with a dizzying, purple spiral. But, not Tharizdun. Just a reflection of his will, a shadow of his maddening persona.
It certainly makes for a better tavern experience to say it was Tharizdun, though. The general public in the Flanaess does not the details of sages and loremasters. And, enterprising bards shall make more easy coin on the ignorant masses.
Of course, GH has it time cops in the Monitors of Infinity. Maybe the Six from Shadow were Monitors of Infinity or working for them? This would avoid the gods having to pull in help from the future, if the Monitors did it for them.
Thoughts?
Okay GVD you slipped one by me that time and I had to google it. I hadn't heard of the Monitors until now, for those who are clueless like me they were in the loosely GH related, generic D&D product Chronomancer, which obviously dealth with time travelling campaigns (2e?). GH has had a few time bending instances before in canon and these obscure Monitors never stepped in. They would for Tharizdun I would hope, so good call there.
Of course, DMPrata's comment regarding an avatar of Tharizdun could also supply a workable solution. An avatar, after all, (as opposed to a mere aspect) could be referred to as "Tharizdun" without actually being Tharizdun.
Given Bubbagump's and Rasgon's quotes about Big T, I think Kirt's time travel idea is probably the only way to make sense of the Six from Shadow.
Even without our quotes, your quote specifically places this "in ages past," which sounds like rather more than a few centuries. I think the time travel idea is overcomplicated and unnecessary, however. The description seems to describe the time when Tharizdun's cult was last at its height - in the period when his great temple was built in the Yatils, which I believe was during the period of the great migrations. Tharizdun's prison weakened during that time, and abominations and cultists of Tharizdun were on the march, seeking to free their patron completely. The other gods, as the quote says, were seeking to shore up the Dark God's prison before it was too late. Perhaps, as bubbagump suggested, Tharizdun was able to manifest an avatar during this rare conjunction of the stars and planes, and the gods were trying to rebind the avatar before it succeeded in collecting the keys to its cage.
Dardallion would've been from the region claimed by the Oeridian warlord Carashast, in a trading village characterized by distinctive gray hawks, and Reikhardt from a colony being built by the Keoish between the Barrier Peaks and the Stark Mounds. I don't think there's any good reason to assume that Greyhawk or Geoff necessarily refers to the modern regions of those names. Occam's Razor suggests they weren't.
GH has had a few time bending instances before in canon and these obscure Monitors never stepped in. They would for Tharizdun I would hope, so good call there.
The Monitors of Infinity (which are said to be similar to Chronomancer's Guardians) exist to protect the timelines from chronomantic meddling, not to cause that kind of temporal malfeasance. They'd be busy trying to arrest the Six From Shadow, not busing them in. Even with the fate of the world at stake, it's their job to be dispassionate about destiny and the proper course of history. If you want to invoke time travel in Greyhawk, I'd use Tovag Baragu, the Suloise Null, Heward's nexus, or the interference of Lendor, Istus, or Cyndor. They could even use independently researched chronomancy of their own. With so many ways to justify time travel, why use the least appropriate one? The Monitors/Guardians would be the antagonists in this scenario, not abettors of such a deus ex machina.
The only scenario where I can see this making sense is if the Six From Shadow were themselves members of the Monitors of Infinity, busy hunting down minions that Tharizdun had brought from other times before they could affect the past. But again... why make things so complicated? The story of Tharizdun's binding is interesting enough in its own right without having to turn it into a timewar.
Besides, one would think the past would have its own heroes. I'd much rather bring "locals" into the fray than to invoke the conceit of time travel just to rationalize the use of two place names in a generic 3.5 sourcebook, especially when there are so many easier and better ways to do so.
I feel the same way about theories that a time-traveling Zagyg helped create Ehlissa's Nightingale, incidentally. I'd rather make "Xagy" one of Ehlissa's contemporaries, probably unrelated to the Mad Archmage we know.
Rasgon, we all know 'Zagyg did it all' so why deny it?
The main time bending episode I referred to was Tovag Baragu when Vecna tried to bring hordes of his worshippers into the present. If that isn't chronomantic meddling I don't know what is. Otherwise, yeah I get your drift.
And while the deities struggled to imprison Tharizdun in a distant realm, a veritable army of heroes of every faith matched into battle against his cult.
This is an important passage while the deities sought to imprision Tharizdun - maybe the prision was weakening and Big T was able to send an aspect to aid his followers.
The army of heroes was sent to battle his cult not Big T personally - perhaps they discovered the cult had discovered a way to weaken the prison and had an emmissary, servant, manifested part, aspect, avatar - which the heroes destroyed at great cost.
The avatar idea has merit, certainly. It adds some serious spice to the early post-Migration period that is otherwise pretty much of a cypher. On the other hand, I like the time travel option for its grandeur. _________________ GVD
The whole time-traveling idea makes me nervous. Having run some time-traveling adventures and having seen plenty of others, I tend to think that time-traveling gets too complicated too quickly. Some of you may remember what happened when they opened up the Dragonlance world to time-traveling - a good series quickly became a sloppy mess.
I have to say, that as this post started the idea of time travel rankled. I have never found it enjoyable for PC adventures, usually becuase it is used as an excuse to "spelunke," through the past, and change history. I have only had a few players who were not mischevious and would want to torture their DM.
That said, I have also never been a huge fan of Tharzidun. However, it seems to me that if there ever was a reason for a time travel storyline, this is it...
It also, in my mind carefully wraps up the whole idea... chronomancy requires power almost beyond that of the Gods. Only when Tharzidun was forced away would the gods exercise such power. I have to say, I like it.
The army of heroes was sent to battle his cult not Big T personally - perhaps they discovered the cult had discovered a way to weaken the prison and had an emmissary, servant, manifested part, aspect, avatar - which the heroes destroyed at great cost.
"Once more, I have no file of data dealing with Tsojcanth. I imagined him as one of the exceptionally potent magic-wielders who arise amongst humans every so often. I considered him the channel used by the Good deities for the further abridgement of the actual Tharizdun, as it were. Tsojcanth and a circle of other mages of good alignment, and certainly others of like persuasion and other capacities, assailed and defeated the followers of the avatar Tharizdun, and then by sympathetic means, and empowered by deital power, Tsojcanth (and his associated mages lending their power to him so as he could survive channeling of deital energies) forced the avatar Tharizdun to rejoin its parent entity.
"I did not identify Tsojcanth as to race, but I think he was more likely Flan or Oeridian than a Suloise. He was certainly human and of Good alignment.
"Perhaps to better convey the matter, there should be a distinction between the entital imprisoning and the chief avatar imprisoning--greater and lesser, if you will. "
"Years ago, but not beyond the reach of a historian’s quill, an Oeridian archmage named Tsojcanth rose to power. The predecessor of more famous wizards, such as Mordenkainen and Otiluke, Tsojcanth was a student of great magic and a protector of the mortal realm. For many lifetimes, Tsojcanth defended Oerth from incursion and assault. He battled the minions of the demon princes, Orcus and Graz’zt, slew a wielder of the horrific Hand of Vecna, and even stood against the forces of the mad god Tharizdun."
It sounds to me that Tsojcanth was certainly an ally of the Six Against Shadow mentioned in Complete Champion - that the six named were among the "Others of like persuasion" mentioned by Gygax in his interview.
That helps date things, as well. Tsojcanth certainly preceded the Company of Seven as well as Mordenkainen and Otiluke; his time was explicitly centuries before Iggwilv found his lost caverns in the fourth century. So I think we can place the binding of Tharizdun's avatar at the second century CY at the latest. Since Tsojcanth was Oeridian (or half-Oeridian, as the Dungeon adventure goes on to reveal), we might place him specifically at the fall of the Gnomelord of the Blemu Hills.
Well reasoned Rasgon, and a nice save for what I think was a slipshod intrusion to GH canon by Complete Champion. Iggwilv's legacy luckily fits nicely with CC and surprisingly even EGG as you said. Good to see this mod finally gives us some halfway concrete background on this enigmatic NPC.
It sounds to me that Tsojcanth was certainly an ally of the Six Against Shadow mentioned in Complete Champion - that the six named were among the "Others of like persuasion" mentioned by Gygax in his interview.
Yes, except the quote given above from CC says pretty clearly that The Six From the Shadow were the only survivors of the thousands that assisted in imprisoning Big T, and that they were not of like “like persuasion”. The “like persuasion” that EGG spoke of were powerful good spell casters*, and CC implies differing alignments and professions. Because of the CC's mention of an alliance of different alignments and the magnitude of the opperation, the authors were probably refering to the imprisonment of Big T. I think its safe to assume the authors just didn't make any attempt to fit with (or even knew or cared about) existing canon, leaving those interested in reconciling the various published materials to resort to time travel, loose interpretations, and discounting some information as legend.
I just ignore this type of contradictory information from newer products, unless the product itself explains and gives a good reason for the discrepancy.
*EGG Makes a distinction between the alliance of good, neutral and evil gods against Tharizdun (Big T) in ages past, and the coalition of good that imprisoned an avatar of Tharizdun (Little T) some time after the Invoked Devastation/Rain of Colorless Fire.
The “like persuasion” that EGG spoke of were powerful good spell casters
No, if you reread the answer in question, it clearly means "good alignment, but of classes other than magic-user." "Capacity" in this case is used in the sense of "position, function, role."
Tsojcanth was accompanied by a "circle of other mages of good alignment," so it would be redundant if the "others" were also mages of good alignment. The former sentence said nothing about level, after all. It says they were "of like persuasion and other capacities" - "other capacities" means they weren't mages. I imagine they belonged to a variety of classes. Their role, "to assail and defeat the followers of the avatar Tharizdun," is something that fighters, monks, rangers, and thieves can do as well as mages and clerics.
As for Tsojcanth, he probably faked his death, or was so uninvolved with the actual fighting that he wasn't counted among the armies who faced the minions of Tharizdun.
Quote:
I think its safe to assume the authors just didn't make any attempt to fit with (or even knew or cared about) existing canon
Oh, certainly. I didn't mean to imply they did. My point is only that, by coincidence, what they wrote fits with what Gygax and Marmell wrote remarkably well. It fits so well, in fact, that ideas about time travel or dismissing things as legend is entirely unnecessary (apart from noting that Tsojcanth wasn't as good as everyone believed him to be).
Questions of magnitude or alignment aren't as definitive as you're claiming. I don't think there's anything incompatible at all with the idea that groups of other played some role in the defeat of Tharizdun's minions, even if "those of like persuasion" played the most direct role. Gygax's words don't rule out the participation of others at all, and they certainly don't address the question of scale. There may well have been thousands.
As for the initial binding of the true Tharizdun, mortals weren't involved with it in any capacity. I don't think there were any mortals back then. The difference is not just that the true Tharizdun was bound by many alignments and the avatar only by those of good - the difference is far more substantial than that. It's the difference between myth and legend.
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