I'm pretty sure this information has been captured somewhere but... has anyone compiled a list of all the names of the various orc tribes found in the Eastern Flanaess? _________________ Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (Translation: I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.)
The Blood Moon and Vile Rune were two competeing tribes in the Bone March. The name of an orc tribe that lives in the Yatils is mentioned in the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and EGG told me the names of the two orc tribes that dwelled in/around the Greyhawk Castle dungeons, but I can't remember their names right now.
Scott
the orc tribes listed in the 1e MM are: The Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, and Dripping Blade. I believe that 1e Unearthed Arcana revealed that the tribes were loosly named after the symbol of which ever god in the orcish pantheon they considered thier patron (For example Broken Bone orcs revered Bhargtu, god of strength and stupidity, while Evil Eye orcs held Gruumsh as thier patron etc).
the orc tribes listed in the 1e MM are: The Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, and Dripping Blade.
I seem to recall that Vile Rune and Death Moon were located in the Bone March. And I might be wrong but some obscure memory cells are tickling my sense of recall that the Bloody Heads might be from the Pomarj.
But all that's going off my memories which are admittedly spotty at best. _________________ Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (Translation: I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.)
Why don't we start a catalogue for Orc and other humanoid tribes, just like the nice one done for the Dragons of Oerth? I know a lot of tribes are listed in a Dragon Magazine article entitled See the Pomarj and Die. I'll try and find it and see if I can catalogue the various tribes there.
Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.
There is no reference to the MM orc tribes in the Pomarj issue so its fan's fiction at best.
Not that there is anything wrong with using any of the above (as I'm sure we all have been not really discerning the original creative intent of the World of Greyhawk at one time or another and just played. ;) I had developed my own tribes for the entire continent a long time back. ) but if we're going to discuss heartily the aspects of the world consider what came first above all then let the rest fall where it may. I know it sounds harsh but just follow me in the end you'll be glad.
This is what needs focus right now:
The MM tribes
The WG4 orc subtribe of one of the MM tribes in the Yatils (I think its MM's Rotting Eye but I don't have it on hand to check or to get the subtribe's name either.) This adventure is very important to see how these tribes are structured.
The Bone March Dragon article by Kuntz (at the time was in charge of creative development of Eastern Flanaess).
Iuz when Gygax was featuring him often (Pre-Sargent)
Various other modules, the WoG Boxed set, etc.
Then consider that later stuff.
I'll try to scour through some of this stuff this weekend and see what comes up.
N.B. Rob Kuntz said Robilar's Quij did not belong to any notable orc tribe.
Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.
We're gonna use em all.
Quoting the FAQ
Quote:
· What is Canonfire!
Canonfire! is a portal site/webzine produced by the members of the GREYtalk Mailing List. It is an interactive place to post and read news, articles, and archive material focusing primarily on the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting. Furthermore, Canonfire! is editionless (or rather editionfull) catering to all editions and/or game systems as well as all products Greyhawk.
I'll start on a special feature page when I see a bigger list.
Please attempt to follow the following format and we'll see whcih categories stick...
Tribe Name - Leader - Population - Location (Hex or Area) - Deity -Flag/Symbol - Product Appearance
Those, I think, are the 7 most important column categories.
It is interesting that this thread has popped up, Mortellan and I were shaking some ideas around similiar to this. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
Last edited by abysslin on Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Heh, thanks. But... is it "Death Moon"? Or "Blood Moon"? _________________ Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (Translation: I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.)
We know that Zief has a high orc population (Where they are even somewhat accepted in society), but do we know what tribe or tribes the orcs belong to?
Alright so its established that you'll use them all and my "edition" doesn't, so what?
I've got just as much right to lend a hand at compiling an original structure.
According to WG4 you have a close look at members of the Orcs of the Rotting Eye, belonging to the clan of the Jagged Knife. It features their shield device as what appears to be a short sword through a splayed eye capsule, muscles and optic nerve. It doesn't match the description of a huge glaive-like knife with a serrated edge with a targe below it shaped and colored like a rotted eye but its close enough.
It goes into more detail describing the Rotting Eye orcs garb and other details.
An excellent foundation and well worth the consideration.
the 1e MM makes no claims that the list of orc tribes given is exhaustive, infact it lists them as examples...thre for other tribes of orcs were assumed to exist in the flaneass at the time of the writing, and future products simply expanded upon that (IMO).
that being said I feel that Sergeant's orc tribe names in Iuz the evil are so obviously an error that they should be listed seperatly from any sort of huge compiled list of orc tribes etc. that we create.
finaly, Gene: Any help you decide to provide whether drawn strictly from 1e sources or not, will be valued. :)
Secondly, I think we can commonly agree on Sargent having a fault on this subject. I can organize it much like the Dragons of Oerth page with seperate tables with hardly any extra labor involved. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.
There is no reference to the MM orc tribes in the Pomarj issue so its fan's fiction at best.
You should look at Slavers again--it was written by Sean Reynolds & Chris Pramas, not David Cook.
As for orc tribes beyond MM1e, like Wes said, they weren't meant to be exhaustive.
And I agree that Sargent screwed up by using the "Flan" names for his orc tribes. But then again, I've always felt that the Flan names for various demihuman & humanoid races were stupid--they all sound like someone trying to say the "traditional" name while chewing on a big dirt clod.
People are throwing the words "tribe" and "clan" around as if they were interchangeable. Perhaps in common usage they are, but my take on their general use in the social sciences is that they are different.
With the warning that I am not an anthropologist, I think tribe is more properly used as a political designation. A tribe is a political entity, having political leaders and a defined territory. You belong to your tribe because your tribe is where you live, and is similar to the idea of nation.
A clan is not political. A clan is primarily based on bloodline. You belong to the clan you were born into (either your mother's clan or your father's, depending on whether the society is matrilineal or patrilineal), and that does not change regardless of shifts in politics, conquest, etc. Usually clans have exogamy rules, that is, you are not allowed to marry within your clan.
A tribe (political unit) typically has several clans (religious/descent units). The neighboring tribe probably has many of the same clans. Since you have to marry outside your clan, each tribe has bonds between the clans. But likely the clans compete within the tribe for position, with the clan of the leader probably having a better position. If you leave your tribe to deal with another tribe, you will be most warmly received by members of your clan within that other tribe.
As a specific example, IIRC, the Iroquoi confederacy had five (later six) nations: Onandaga, Seneca, Mohawk, Cayuga, and Oneida. These might be considered Great Tribes, since they were organized political units that ruled specific terriories. Each village belonged to one of the nations, so a village might be considered a sub-tribe, or tribal chiefdom. However, regardless of his tribe/nation, an Iroquoi belongs to one of four (?) clans, based on matrilineal descent, for example, Turtle. Most of the clans were common across all the nations/tribes.
So, how does this relate to orcs? I recall reading somewhere that orcs are dominated by their religious affiliation, and that orc groups of different religious affiliation will almost always fight upon contact. Whereas orcs of the same religious affiliation will be much more inclined to peaceful negotiation, even if from different political entities. I believe this comes from Roger Moore's excellent articles about the humanoid races that appeared in Dragon #62 and #63, IIRC. Definately those are sources worth checking out in relation to this topic.
In my campaign, and I propose for this project, an orc tribe is a political designation, with a political chief or leader. Each orc "lair" is a sub-tribe, and some of them are organized into alliegence to a warlord or greater tribal leader. These groups have local names and there exist very many.
However, each orc tribe/lair is dominated by shamans of one orcish god, only. Thus, a single clan, or religious affiliation, controls each tribe, simply because orcs of different religious tradition will kill each other given the chance. The only orcs in a lair not of the dominant clan would be prisoners, slaves, captured brides, etc. They would not be allowed to practice their faith. Obviously orcs would not have the prohibition on within-clan marriages.
Thus, two orc tribes of the same clan (patron diety) would be likely to ally even if they were ruled by different overlords, while two orc tribes of different clans would almost always fight, and even the most skilled or powerful warlord would be hard pressed to maintain an empire encorporating tribes of different clans. Iuz most likely has to see that the clans he rules have different geographical deployments. This is what I think Gygax meant in the MM when he wrote "If orcs from one of the /clans/ are encountered in an area, it is likely that all other orcs nearby will also be from this same /clan/." (p.76). Although he used the word tribe, not clan, I think his meaning more properly matches the word clan.
And, as has been previously mentioned on this thread, the list of "tribe" names (should be clan names) given in MM is meant to match the various orcish dieties. This list should be more or less exhaustive for the Flaneass, as the orcish dieties worshipped are few and universal. A list of tribes for the Flaneass would be huge and constantly changing, as political affiliation is a more ephemeral, local, matter.
My interpretation would be
Vile Rune = Luthic, goddess of caves, healing, females (the rune is a rune of protection and fertility placed at cave entrances and birthing chambers)
Death Moon = Shargass, God of night, theives (Death moon is the New Moon under which raids are better conducted)
Broken Bone = Bahgtru, god of strength and unarmed combat
(bone broken from being smashed in a fight)
Evil Eye = Gruumsh, Great God of orcs (one-eyed)
Leprous Hand = Yurtrus, god of death and plague
Dripping Blade = Ilneval, god of warriors and battle
(blade dripping with blood of enemies)
I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety.
Kirt _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
People are throwing the words "tribe" and "clan" around as if they were interchangeable. Perhaps in common usage they are, but my take on their general use in the social sciences is that they are different...
Kirt
Nice treatise, but the only post I saw in this whole thread that had the word clan in it was Gene's, and that was in reference to a clan that was part of a tribe.
Regardless of what else it can mean, one commonly accepted definition of tribe is a group of clans living under a chief or leader, and for orcs, I think that works fine.
Personally, I don't like the tribes divided by what god they venerate concept, as I never considered them to be an overly religious lot.
I have each shaman/witch doctor call on whichever deity seems to fit the bill for any given occasion.
Scott
Nice treatise, but the only post I saw in this whole thread that had the word clan in it was Gene's, and that was in reference to a clan that was part of a tribe.
True, but I was also referring to the WoTC thread referenced above, which was titled The Euroz Clan, and in which at least five different people used the word clan, including yourself. Although you seem to be using it only in response to abysslin's usage.
ScottG wrote:
Personally, I don't like the tribes divided by what god they venerate concept, as I never considered them to be an overly religious lot.
I have each shaman/witch doctor call on whichever deity seems to fit the bill for any given occasion.
You can do what you want in your campaign. I maintain that I recall orcs as being presented semi-officially (in Dragon) as having their political divisions based on religion. This is in contrast to the goblins and hobgoblins, for example, whose situation is more like what you describe. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I don't remember the names or have my reference books handy, but I don't believe anyone has mentioned the names tribes of orcs (2) mentioned in the City of Greyhawk boxed set lairing in the hills near Maure Castle or the tribe dwelling in an ancient ruined city in the mountains between Tehn and Stonefist. I believe the latter was mentioned in the Five Shall Be One modules, among other places.
I don't remember the names or have my reference books handy, but I don't believe anyone has mentioned the names tribes of orcs (2) mentioned in the City of Greyhawk boxed set lairing in the hills near Maure Castle or the tribe dwelling in an ancient ruined city in the mountains between Tehn and Stonefist. I believe the latter was mentioned in the Five Shall Be One modules, among other places.
SirXaris
I did index both of those so I must have missed these references.
We know that Zief has a high orc population (Where they are even somewhat accepted in society), but do we know what tribe or tribes the orcs belong to?
-I'm guessing that most of the Ziefi orcs are unaffiliated.
Kirt wrote:
... I maintain that I recall orcs as being presented semi-officially (in Dragon) as having their political divisions based on religion...
-I forget the issues, but initially, Gyagx wrote a letter to the editor giving Moore some praise for his demi-human and humanoid articles, but also some caveats. Later, in a "Sorcerer's Scroll" column (IIRC), Gygax gave Moore's articles his full blessing for use with Oerth. That would include different tribes having different patrons.
Kirt wrote:
...My interpretation would be
Vile Rune = Luthic, goddess of caves, healing, females (the rune is a rune of protection and fertility placed at cave entrances and birthing chambers)...
-I figured that the "vile" rune would be a vagina symbol (for Luthic), but:
...Scruby Fantasy 30mm minis (1975): Per Gygax on Enworld (10/8/07), "Jack Scruby began casting orcs, so we had real miniatures for them -- the Orcs of the Vile Rune whose symbol was a fist with a raised digit."...
...still a fertility symbol, but from the other side.
Kirt wrote:
...I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety...
-One of Iuz's unholy symbols is a bloody skull. Rotting eye could a variant for Yurtrus.
...I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety...
-One of Iuz's unholy symbols is a bloody skull. Rotting eye could a variant for Yurtrus.
Agreed with Iuz for the Bloody Skull orcs. I went with Incabulos for the Rotting Eye tribe; his symbol is the eye of possession (an eye in a possession rune).
...I forget the issues, but initially, Gyagx wrote a letter to the editor giving Moore some praise for his demi-human and humanoid articles, but also some caveats. Later, in a "Sorcerer's Scroll" column (IIRC), Gygax gave Moore's articles his full blessing for use with Oerth. That would include different tribes having different patrons...
-EG Gygax's letter to the editor was in Dragon #64, his recommendation of Moore's orc articles was in the "Sorcerer's Scroll", Dragon #71.
JasonZavoda wrote:
...Dazark Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
WGR5 - 55,56,58...
...Haggnoh Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
GW:ADV - 28...
...Jublizoi, Hill Renders Tribe (Orc)[CLN]
FTAC - 26...
-These are the Orcish names, which translate to the typical "Disturbing Adjective : Noun" pattern. Therefore, there's a lot of overlap on this list. Which ones?
...there's a lot of overlap on this list. Which ones?
...well, first: Jublizoi = Hill Renders (FTA Campaign Book, p. 26).
The Celbit, which, coincidentally, also happens to be the Flann word for "kobold" , "...were the first to flock to [Iuz's] service when he conquered this land, and were the most ready to greet him when he returned" (Iuz the Evil, p. 17). However, some Celbit (considered renegades) follow a leader who posseses the Torch of Gruumsh (p. 29), and presumably hold him as their primary patron, probably seeing Iuz as unworthy for whatever reason. I propose that those Celbit who follow Iuz be the Bloody Head tribe.
I took a look at the article on Orcish in Dragon #75 on the outside that chance that Sargent may have used it for inspiration, or that something might be made of it just by coincidence. All I got was that "gar" in Garek Enkdal would mean "dig".
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises