Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Canon vs. Fandom?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Canon vs. Fandom?
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 06, 2008
    Posts: 14
    From: College Station, TX

    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:02 pm  
    Canon vs. Fandom?

    I didn't know how else to title this thread.

    I was recently perusing an article from the article area here that referenced the current ruler of a country as the step daughter of a count. Yet the Greyhawk Gazeteer I read right after that said the same person was the daughter of someone else. (I know, not necessarily mutually exclusive, but, if you could indulge me, please?)

    I guess my question is ... Is there some threshold of "canon"? Is there a measurable benchmark?

    The impetus for my wanting some discussion on this is that I'm extremely interested in expanding upon a topic with a work of fiction. Perhaps a major work of fiction. But ... I'm not entirely happy with the political situation as is in the geographical area.

    How much can I bend the "reality" of canon before I offend? Can I tweak certain personalities alignments to fit my vision? Can I take a storyline that drastically alters the doom and gloom of Greyhawk at present? And, again, how do I benchmark what is "canon?"
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3199
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:12 pm  
    Re: Canon vs. Fandom?

    EricTheRed wrote:
    How much can I bend the "reality" of canon before I offend?


    As far as you want. This site isn't called "Canonfire!" because it expects rigorous adherence to the canon. Quite the opposite.

    Articles that adhere more closely to the canon baseline tend to be more useful for more people's home campaigns than articles which don't... much of the time. But if you're writing fanfic rather than a game supplement as such, there's no reason not to go wild.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 06, 2008
    Posts: 14
    From: College Station, TX

    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:32 pm  
    Re: Canon vs. Fandom?

    rasgon wrote:
    ... there's no reason not to go wild.


    Well, I don't want to "go wild" Wink Just tweak a few things that would make the storyline a little more compelling and less predetermined.

    And if I'm being obtuse and close-chested by not specifically mentioning the subject, I apologize. Its because I'm only in that wistful planning state, where anything seems possible. Realization of the actual enormity of the task is the next stage. Happy
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
    Posts: 594


    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:09 pm  

    From the various interviews I have read where Gygax and others from the formulative years of GH, the running theme seemed to be that they desired the players to write the history, that, in effect, anything anyone does in GH is the canon and that's how it was supposed to be.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3807
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:00 pm  

    You should write what you want to. Some articles are written to stick to all canon sources while adding new material to it. Others are based on canon but diverge slightly from it. Some are written only loosely based on canon and wildy diverge on their own course. All types of articles are welcome at Canonfire! We'd actually like to have some sort of rating system for articles that rates their usage or non-usage of canon material, as determined by the authors themselves. That would just help people to know the basis of what they are reading. What does everyone think of this idea?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 01, 2005
    Posts: 53
    From: Sacramento, CA

    Send private message
    Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:41 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    You should write what you want to. Some articles are written to stick to all canon sources while adding new material to it. Others are based on canon but diverge slightly from it. Some are written only loosely based on canon and wildy diverge on their own course. All types of articles are welcome at Canonfire! We'd actually like to have some sort of rating system for articles that rates their usage or non-usage of canon material, as determined by the authors themselves. That would just help people to know the basis of what they are reading. What does everyone think of this idea?

    That's a great idea. Adding Work Cited or References to articles and fan-fiction would be great as well. Greyhawk has so many plot hooks it's difficult for me to figure out which hook a particular piece of fan-fiction latches on to. References and Work Cited would help me determine the "Canon Rating" for myself.
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:55 am  
    Canon Baseline

    Hi all -
    My baseline for canon objectivity is as follows:
    If it's written for my home campaign I can muck up canon all I want. If I intend to publish it here on CanonFire! I do my best to at least have a tad bit of canon reference. If I intend to publish it in the Oerth Journal it needs to have as much canon usability as possible. The few articles I've had in the OJ have reference points and list where and why I believe things are as I'm writing.
    For example, my Hegemony Wars article reference a new war. With it I referenced other articles from CanonFire! to help facilitate the ability for others to be able to utilize my concepts. Because I want some continutiy in my campaigns - even though the last one took place in Dyvers (using Necromancer Games' Bards Gate sourcebook) and not in the Pale - the effects of the Hegemony Wars were still set.
    However, as I wrote it I still attempted to utilize canon-ish references to give a solid base for why I believe things happen the way I declared.
    I'm still in the planning stage for my future OJ article on the Churches of Pholtus. With this, I will reference Living Greyhawk - even though I personally hate what they've done to The Pale region, as well as it not being canon. But as enough people played the RPGA system and there are enough resources for the RPGA's concepts, and I do like a few of them. Because some say RPGA's module are canon and some don't it is a toss up as to what you want to use. This then muddy's the waters a bit in terms of what is and what is not canon.
    So ultimately, I have to say that you need to determine what baseline you will use as canon for whatever you plan on writing. I think this should also be stated so that when I'm reading it I now what you support and this allows me to understand and accept the changes as "canon-like" or as heretical!
    Be Well.
    In His Path and Glory We Follow,
    Theocrat Issak of the Church of the One True Path of Pholtus
    _________________
    Theocrat Issak
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:23 am  

    Post removed.
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods


    Last edited by EileenProphetofIstus on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:11 am; edited 2 times in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:13 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    You should write what you want to. Some articles are written to stick to all canon sources while adding new material to it. Others are based on canon but diverge slightly from it. Some are written only loosely based on canon and wildy diverge on their own course. All types of articles are welcome at Canonfire! We'd actually like to have some sort of rating system for articles that rates their usage or non-usage of canon material, as determined by the authors themselves. That would just help people to know the basis of what they are reading. What does everyone think of this idea?


    Non-Serious Reaction - Cool! I'll get the charcoal briquets and bring the beer! Let's get this flame war started! Laughing

    Serious Reaction - Cool! It would be useful to readers. Rather than 1-5 stars, however, I suggest 1-5 grains of salt .

    Wink Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:47 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    We'd actually like to have some sort of rating system for articles that rates their usage or non-usage of canon material, as determined by the authors themselves. That would just help people to know the basis of what they are reading. What does everyone think of this idea?


    -If it was used, which I doubt (look at the current rating system), we would argue over it. While I like to adhere as much as possible to canon for articles, of it some sux, we cannot agree on what it is, and even good stuff can be eclipsed by better ideas. A passing note by the author might be good, but not a rating system.

    EricTheRed wrote:

    Well, I don't want to "go wild" Wink


    I do. I want to be a half naked proto-hobbit chasing dire vorpal bunnies with an itty-bitty atlatl.


    Quote:
    The Little Glaciation was dominated by early halfling cultures. While the highest civilizations belonged to the elves and dwarves, halflings dominated the landscape much as humans predominate today. Short and thickly built, the Stoor and Hairfoot halflings of the Little Glaciation little resembled the svelte halflings now familiar. Halflings first harnessed fire, first worked in stone, first domesticated animals and built the first permanent hominid settlements. While now classed as demi-humans, halflings bear little resemblance to other demi-human races and are more accurately classed as proto-hominids. It is believed that from halflings men first learned the rudiments of civilization.


    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=659
    _________________
    Plar of Poofy Pants
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:55 am  

    Proto of the Fine Flingers and the Sting of Doom
    _________________
    Plar of Poofy Pants
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:46 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I want to be a half naked proto-hobbit chasing dire vorpal bunnies with an itty-bitty atlatl.


    Oh, the humanity! Won't someone think of the children!?! Wink Laughing

    Pass the xuxe chicha! Cool

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Chicha is a traditional ceremonial beer made by the Olman from corn fermented after mastication. For mundane chicha consumption, corn is usually little more than a symbolic adjunct to the fermentation of the more readily available staples, such as rice and various fruits. But Xuxe’s Chicha, being made from extraordinary ingredients, sanctified maize and the incendiary drool of the Greater Gibbering Mouther, Xuxeteanlahucuxolazapaminaco (2), is far more potent.


    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=763
    _________________
    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 158
    From: Little Rock, Arkansas

    Send private message
    Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:14 pm  
    Re: Canon vs. Fandom?

    EricTheRed wrote:
    I was recently perusing an article from the article area here that referenced the current ruler of a country as the step daughter of a count. Yet the Greyhawk Gazeteer I read right after that said the same person was the daughter of someone else. (I know, not necessarily mutually exclusive, but, if you could indulge me, please?)

    I guess my question is ... Is there some threshold of "canon"? Is there a measurable benchmark?


    One of the colorful components of Greyhawk fandom is our complete inability to agree on what is canon and what is not, and this is quite unlikely to change any time soom. Perhaps the 83 boxed set is the only thing everyone can agree to include.

    However, if the narrow question is which is higher canon: a fan-made article posted on Canonfire or the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, you may safely assume that the vast majority will choose the Gazeteer.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 01, 2005
    Posts: 53
    From: Sacramento, CA

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:14 am  
    Re: Canon vs. Fandom?

    OleOneEye wrote:
    One of the colorful components of Greyhawk fandom is our complete inability to agree on what is canon and what is not, and this is quite unlikely to change any time soom. Perhaps the 83 boxed set is the only thing everyone can agree to include.

    However, if the narrow question is which is higher canon: a fan-made article posted on Canonfire or the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, you may safely assume that the vast majority will choose the Gazeteer.

    I agree - what is true GH Canon? It's the reason I suggested that writers cite sources and annotate their work. It allows the reader to judge what is Canon, rating or not.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3807
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:15 am  

    The Submit Article system will include a "Credits & Recommended Reading" section too. Most of the details have already been ironed out. There will also be an option to NOT choose a canon rating for your articles- a "Decline to Classify" option. There will likely be a similar set-up for classifying articles that feature rules for a specific rules set. We are still looking into the feasability of some of these options within the PHPnuke format, but they look possible. These added fields would allow people to search for articles using this extra criteria. Ideally, "Decline to Classify" articles would appear in any search of its basic article type. Some people don't want to classify their articles, and that's fine by me. Hopefully we'll be able to do a test run of this system soon.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 23, 2004
    Posts: 1212


    Send private message
    Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:16 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:

    Oh, the humanity! Won't someone think of the children!?! Wink Laughing


    That's the problem! Why do you think there are beastmen are in the Vesve? They were peddling chicha to the the hobbits of old, the only people they are not afraid of. Peddling that- and other things. This is why hobbits have such an affinity for ale and "pipeweed". Watch out for those the counterculture hobbits that think its "cool" to die their foot-bush green. You know they are up to no good.

    At least, I can find no better explaination consistant with canon. 5 grains of salt for me!
    _________________
    Plar of Poofy Pants
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2781
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:04 pm  

    I think that as long as you aren't trying for outside publication you should "tweak" it as you need too. Cool

    I started a work of fantasy many years ago, but WotC has changed the Canon significantly from my time in the late 70's. Mad My book would probably never receive their sanction for publication, and thus, it ends at chapter five, until I decide to change the names and places and make it something else. Sad

    But as has been said above, this is Canonfire!, not WotC. Everyhting here (from what I have read) is based upon the various games of the many Dungeon Masters out there. Remember, the Dungeon Master is Ao. You are the Overgod of your WoG. Run with it. Happy

    Just my thoughts.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.31 Seconds