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    Canonfire :: View topic - Prestige Classes In Greyhawk
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    Prestige Classes In Greyhawk
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:12 am  
    Prestige Classes In Greyhawk

    I am interested in any Prestige Classes that others have found that are GH grounded or fit well in GH.

    Let me caveat this... Prestige Classes are my favorite and most hated addition created in 3E. I love the Core Prestige Classes found in the DMG. There are other good ones. The majority that I have found in other sources, and that come out in the supplements (Tome & Blood for example) are simply methods to get the benefits of several levels of advancement, without having to wait on the advancement.

    I would welcome any recommendations, but would covet those P. Classes that you have playtested.

    Thanks.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:34 am  

    My friend, the prestige classes in Tome & Blood should not scare you. Most of them are feeble and none of them are more powerful than a straight wizard. There are broken prestige classes out there, but you won't find them in that book.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:25 am  

    Anced_Math

    I loved the prestige class "Magi of the Arcane Order" and use it in Oerth to represent the Silent Ones.
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    Victor Caminha
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:39 am  

    some prestige classes that I have found that work good in my greyhawk (Your milage may varry of course)

    Knight Protector (duh)
    Spellsword (Used mostly with elves to represent the benifits that a 1st edition Fighter/magic-user got)
    The Guild Thief (from FRCS)
    Fist of Hextor
    Ravager
    Blighter
    Shining Blade of Heironeous
    Pious Templar
    Deepwood Sniper
    Various archdevil deciples and demon thralls from the BoVD (Since Devilish and demonic cults play a role in my game).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 11, 2003
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    From: Ulek

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:25 pm  

    I generally dislike prestige classes. I love the idea of them and what they can add, but the reality of them is more so-so with me.

    My main gripe is the imbalance between melee prestige classes and magic using ones.

    Take a fighter for example. He gives up the primary benefit of the fighter class (all those bonus feats) to gain levels in a PrC. However, a wizard continues to advance in his primary benefit of the class (spells) as well as pick up the added bonus of a PrC. The fighter gives something substantial while the wizard does not.

    If a class offers enough benefits to make up for the loss of their primary class abilities then it wouldn't be an issue, but this is not always the case.

    Has anyone else felt the same or is it just goofy ol' me?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:12 pm  

    You have it wrong.

    The fighter ones are among the best. Fighters have the most feats to burn to qualify and the requirements aren't usually worthless feats (Skill Focus: Knowledge[religion] for the Pale Master) but ones that are actually useful. Your hit points stack, your saves stack, your BAB stacks. These are the important features. Most prestige classes will improve your saving throws, even if only by giving out the bonus on your good save again. These are the important features to a fighter.

    What you end up trading is the thing that distinguishes you from other martial classes (bonus feats) for class features. These improve things you are already good at thanks to your feat selection, usually beyond what you could do with feats. So you trade a little diversity to go from good to disgusting at what you do best. Net result: you win.

    Cleric Prestige Classes tend to go like this: keep your spellcasting progression. Everything else gets messed as we trade ability X for ability Y. The Hospitlar is a well known powerhouse, but Divine Disciple and Hierophant (high level) are also good examples of good Divine prestige classes.

    Mages get boned. Most prestige classes work off of the take useless feat and get an improvement in caster level every other level instead of every level. In return for this momentous sacrifice we will give you slightly better hit points and saves and some cool special abilities. Of course, if you had full caster progression you could cast spells even more powerful than these special abilities, have more spells to boot, and beat strong SR more often than occassionally.

    There are exceptions. Alienest (almost always NPC), Incantrix, Hathran, Red Wizard, Shadow Adept, Eldritch Knight, and Arch Mage don't suck. Mages, rogues, and druids have the worst designed prestige classes.
    Master Greytalker

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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:57 am  
    Cooler head

    Alright everyone, it is obvious that this tickles a bone. I appreciate the input, and you have all thought about this a great deal. As far as who is wrong, or who is right, that is really not that important.

    There are good (i.e. well balanced) prestige classes, Uber prestige classes (too powerful), poor classes (too weak), and then there are the Munchkin Prestige classes (when the player says "I want 4 levels of wizfighter, but I do not want to wait or multi class)... I know, I will create my own Prestige Class!!!"). The merits of the Spell Casting vs. Fighter classes really dont interest me.

    What I want to know is which ones have worked for you as a DM or even as a player. Have you playtested them? Have you you found them balanced and unique enough to justify? CWSlyClgh, can you help me with a reference or site on each of these?

    Example Problem: Our 9th level ranger (an improved ranger class similar to Monte Cooks) asked to take Arcane Archer. She met all the requirements, and away we went. And it benefited her not at all. A single level of just about any class or other prestige class would have worked better. The Class looked fantastic on paper, and I still love the concept. However, she has taken three levels now, and the cracks are really showing. She is only marginally better with a bow today that she was almost 9 months ago, yet everyone else is showing significant gains, which is reasonable with three levels of advancement.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:39 pm  

    It helps to read the full class description. The arcane archer get free magic arrows and an arrow of death attack at high level. A reasonably intelligent player should think "do I need free magic arrows since that is most of this class?" before picking. The name is cool, the class is dangerous at high levels , but if you are leveling slowly and don't need free magic arrows it is going to suck.

    Order of the Bow Initiate and Deepwoods Sniper are better arrow monkey prestige classes.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    From: Ullinois

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    Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:40 pm  

    Surprisingly my group has used very few PrC's from the various books. Most of my fighters lean towards Weaponmaster. I've had a few assassins too. It's been my experience like said before in this thread that fighters get the best of PrC because they have feats to burn and generally get the most useful and USED special abilities.

    On a side note there is a Dragon magazine that contains a few good Priestly PrC's, 283 I think.

    Mighty Contender of Kord
    Fleet Runner of Ehlonna
    Radiant Servant of Rao
    Shining Blade of Heironeous (already mentioned)

    p.s. I like the thrall PrC's in BoVD too Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Edmonton, Canada

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    Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:04 pm  

    I find that the Prestige Classes seem to work better for NPCs than they do for PCs. I never found a PrC that would really suit my cleric. As DM though they give one interesting twists to NPCs and give the players more out of the ordinary encounters both helpful and not.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:22 pm  

    Quote:
    I find that the Prestige Classes seem to work better for NPCs than they do for PCs. I never found a PrC that would really suit my cleric. As DM though they give one interesting twists to NPCs and give the players more out of the ordinary encounters both helpful and not


    I agree with u, there r really few PrC for PCs....but some PrCs, like the prviously mentioned by other, add a lot of flavor to the world....I'm eager to try the "Knight of Holy Shielding", a PrC that is in Dungeon #113, its really good and well balanced.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:28 pm  

    Quote:
    I never found a PrC that would really suit my cleric.
    that is more a problem with the PrC's available to clerics then it is to PrC's available in general... many of the figterish PrC's are perfectly as suitable for PC's as theya re for NPC's.

    like all things moderation is helpful when decideing what PrC's are available in you game, certain prestige classes can add a lot of flavor to the setting... but to many can spoil the stew.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Pécs, Hungary

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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:28 am  

    Hi!

    I've got a simple (?) question to the communitas!

    I'm looking for a "canon" (or fan-made) version of the former Gnarley Ranger-kit in a 3.x-converted PrC-format.

    Any idea?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:34 am  

    Does this help? It's the mechanics of the class for my campaign. If the chart is hard to read, it's fighter attack bonus and good Fort and Will saves. It is also written for 3E. For 3.5, substitute Bluff and Sense Motive for Innuendo.

    Ranger of the Gnarley Forest

    Description

    Hit Die: d10

    Requirements
    Base Attack Bonus: +5
    Innuendo: 3 ranks
    Knowledge (Nature): 5 ranks
    Wilderness Lore: 8 ranks
    Feats: Track, Weapon Focus (any bow except a crossbow)

    Class Skills

    The Gnarley ranger’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Animal Empathy (Cha, exclusive skill), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intuit Direction (Wis), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int, exclusive skill), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Wilderness Lore (Wis).

    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

    The Gnarley ranger
    Level BaseAttack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Spells
    1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Extra Favored Enemy, nature sense +1 level of existing class
    2 +2 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride +1 level of existing class
    3 +3 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step +1 level of existing class
    4 +4 +4 +1 +4 +1 level of existing class
    5 +5 +4 +1 +4 Extra Favored Enemy +1 level of existing class

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the Gnarley Ranger.
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Ranger of the Gnarley Forest is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields. Note that armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick Pocket, and Tumble. Also, Swim checks suffer a -1 penalty for every 5 pounds of armor or equipment carried.
    Extra Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a Ranger of the Gnarley Forest receives this as a bonus feat regardless of whether or not the prerequisites are met (it is described in Masters of the Wild.) If the Gnarley Ranger does not have the favored enemy class feature, bonus damage is limited to +1. Otherwise, all normal benefits of favored enemy and Extra Favored Enemy apply.
    At 5th level, the Gnarley Ranger gains this feat a second time.
    Refer to Table 3-14: Ranger Favored Enemies, p45, PHB, for a list of possible favored enemies.
    Bonus Languages: Rangers of the Gnarley Forest speak Druidic in addition to any other languages. This secret language is normally known only to druids, but through their dealings with them, the Gnarley Rangers have managed to decipher part of it. When attempting to communicate in Druidic, a Gnarley Ranger must make an Innuendo check with his Gnarley Ranger level as a bonus to the check. Druidic has its own alphabet.
    Nature Sense: A Gnarley Ranger can identify plants and animals (their species and special traits) with perfect accuracy. The Gnarley Ranger can determine whether water is safe to drink or dangerous.
    Woodland Stride: Starting at 2nd level, a Gnarley Ranger may move through natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain at his or her normal speed and without suffering damage or other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect the druid.
    Trackless Step: Starting at 3rd level, a Gnarley Ranger leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked.

    (edited for clarity)[/b]


    Last edited by callmeAndydammit on Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:43 am  

    Wow, thank you very much callmeAndydammit! It's a good work, and it is much to my taste! Happy (We use the Third Ed., so it will be perfect for my campaign.)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:16 am  

    I like it, it only has 5 class levels.

    So I have some questions- Why 4 skill points and not six, and how do you justify the switch from good fort and reflex to good fort and will???

    Otherwise the whole point is that you give up the bonus combat feats for extra foavored enemies which is great cause if you ever make it to 21st level you will be a stone cold killer.
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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:08 am  

    Plus not to be nitpicky but I would take diplomacy off the class list, the 2e kit specifically said that the gnarley rangers got a minus on their charisma based tests when within a city of civilised environment.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:24 pm  

    In my experience, you are better off discussing the whole issue of prestige classes with the players before the campaign starts, and selecting those they intend to use, or, even better, creating specific prestige classes for them based on your campaign and their desires.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:55 pm  

    Thanks for advices!

    I'm back to WoG after six (or more) years, so I need others' experiences in DnD 3.x Ed., and especially in the field of character-development on higher (5+) levels.

    It has already been obvious to me either (as Samwise point to it) that fitting the PrC-system in to the campaign needs more DM's efforts than former kits of the ADnD-era, but I need some practice in DMing in this system before I can make my own decisions in this matter.

    Nevertheless, I agree with ClobberinTime: I will take off Diplomacy...
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    Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:03 am  

    ClobberinTime wrote:
    I like it, it only has 5 class levels.

    So I have some questions- Why 4 skill points and not six, and how do you justify the switch from good fort and reflex to good fort and will???

    Otherwise the whole point is that you give up the bonus combat feats for extra foavored enemies which is great cause if you ever make it to 21st level you will be a stone cold killer.


    The class is designed to give 3E rangers some limited druidic ability. 3E rangers used 4 skill points per level, only had good fort saves and had bonus and virtual feats at level 1. If you wish to update this for 3.5, feel free.
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    Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:38 am  

    Ah, I see now- yes more druidic, but I misread it to give an extra favored enemy at 3rd level. I am converting a 21st level ranger over and getting more favored enemies for the Bane of enemies (maybe the best feat in the game) is paramount to me.
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