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    Canonfire :: View topic - Miniatures Inspired by AD&D and Greyhawk
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Miniatures Inspired by AD&D and Greyhawk

    Other than Bullywugs and Sahuagin, what minis should I do?
    Ogres
    3%
     3%  [ 1 ]
    Hobgoblins
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Goblins
    3%
     3%  [ 1 ]
    Orcs
    9%
     9%  [ 3 ]
    Bugbears
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Lizardmen
    12%
     12%  [ 4 ]
    Player Characters
    12%
     12%  [ 4 ]
    NPC Villains
    25%
     25%  [ 8 ]
    Bandits
    3%
     3%  [ 1 ]
    Mercenaries
    6%
     6%  [ 2 ]
    City Guard/Soldiers
    6%
     6%  [ 2 ]
    Fantastical Monsters
    18%
     18%  [ 6 ]
    Basic Undead(Skeletons, zombies, ghouls)
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Total Votes : 32

    Author Message
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:07 am  
    Miniatures Inspired by AD&D and Greyhawk

    I have added a poll to this thread as per chaoticprime's general instructions.

    ---Cebrion


    I have started a miniatures company which intends to produce 25mm fantasy gaming miniatures inspired by the AD&D Monster Manual and Fiend Folio as well as some of the older modules. We are currently awaiting our first greens, and should get some goodies out before too long.

    I will post again later with our web page which will not be up until I get the blister packs ready for sale.

    To start, there is another company called Otherworld Miniatures, that also has this same mission statement, and I will state that as I am a customer of theirs, anything they already produce I will not.

    There will initially be two main product lines which are Tribes of Terror (Humanoids) and Random Encounters (Single, iconic creatures).

    A three pack of bullywugs is already on its way, and they will somewhat resemble this picture that my wife drew http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/sobegrrl/bullywug.jpg but there will be three different torsos and three different sets of interchangeable arms with a variety of medieval weaponry.

    Next would be bullywug shamans and a chief.

    Then we go to Sahuagin country.

    Questions, comments, and especially suggestions are the goal here. Please, speak away.

    We are located in Kansas very close to the geographic center of the United States. As far as shipping goes, this is a magnificent bonus.

    Email me at chaoticprime@yahoo.com if you want to, I want to hear your input. I am not doing this to get rich, I am making the miniatures I want to have and cutting all of you in too.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:18 am  

    congratulations, i hope everything goes fine!

    will you ship to other countries too?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:34 pm  

    Absolutely. I plan to use an ebay store for awhile at first.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:59 pm  

    VERY glad to hear it! Keep us informed, eh?
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:38 pm  

    Concerning suggestions:

    Something I've always wanted to see and which I discussed a bit with Mortellan some time ago is Greyhawk-specific miniatures depicting certain key people such as Murlynd, Tenser, etc., as well as certain key creatures such as Kerzit, et al.

    Of course, if you plan to produce these it might get you into IP trouble, but there could be - and I stress "could be" since I'm not a lawyer - an easy workaround. Rob Kuntz, for example, simply renamed various characters. Ivid became Ovar, and so on.

    Would it not be possible to produce "Tonsor," "Merland," and "Murdelkainen"?

    Just a thought. Have fun with it.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:38 pm  

    I plan on getting to player character types at some point. I am not too worried about IP. For instance, I can use the written descriptions of the circle of eight and Mordy to draw an image which I can have a miniature sculpted from. As for calling them what I want, my market base is pretty much about fans of the old school style of the game, and I expect word of mouth to take care of that. For everyone else, they would be a cool source of wizards.

    Though it may not be for over a year, I would very much like to do a circle of eight-ish boxed set or something. As to which of the eight to use, well, I may well leave that to you all--granted I am focusing on humanoids and monsters for the entire first year.

    Still, I plan to run things responsibly and intelligently so barring calamity things should go as planned.

    My intention is to literally cater to the kind of crowd that runs around here at Canonfire and I know no one wants to pay sixty bucks for a pack of out-of-print sahuagin for their game. I also have plans to release a 100mm bulette sometime this year cast in resin. That should be nice.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:08 pm  

    I like the art, but those legs and arms should be thickened up on the minis, as they would be very flimsy and fragile as pictured. You have to take a little bit of artistic license when creating something that is meant to be handled as a game piece.

    For anything that is humanoid I'd recommend doing a warband of about 12 minis consisting of the following:

    *main leader
    *shaman
    *champion
    *warrior 1 matrix
    *warrior 2 matrix
    *warrior 3 matrix
    (A "matrix" is a basic pose to build multiple variant models from by the way.)

    Do three variants(conversions) of each warrior matrix, giving you a total of 9 slightly different warriors based on the three poses in the end. Vary their weapons and armor accordingly, for instance:

    Bullywug Warrior pack 1: base matrices w/ wicker shields and hand weapons(club, axe, sword)

    Bullywug Warrior pack 2: matrices variant #1 w/a bunch of shortspears/javelins and either club, sword, or axe(different variant arms for the non-spear weapons than the first three above)

    Bullywug warrior pack 3: matrices variants #2 w/spears and animal hide/turtle shell shields

    That's a total of 6 original sculpts and 6 modified sculpts(much cheaper), though you might consider doing one additional pack of three "elites" too. For Bullywugs than might be slightly bigger and meaner looking ones with turtle shell armor and two-handed weapons. If the arms, legs and torsos are separate you can leave it to everyone to mix and match even more combinations if they want a larger warband. Have your sculptor do conversions rather than full re-sculpts wherever possible, as that will cut down on your costs dramatically. If it doesn't perhaps you need to look for another sculptor.

    I obviously like miniatures, and the one thing I really do hate is having only three or four miniatures for something that you really should have a dozen or more of to represent them well. Humanoids are just one of those things. Start with an overall plan, map out how man different bits you will have for the entire group of minis, set aside funding, and contract to have them sculpted. Always have a contract with your sculptors, and a standard NDA.

    Also, who is sculpting your minis?
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    Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:38 pm  

    The bullywugs are being designed as you say, with three bodies and three different sets of arms which are interchangeable with any of the three bodies. Conversions have been a must-have.

    Mu sculptor is Jason Wiebe. He's a favorite of mine and has been very helpful in showing me the ropes of the miniature gaming industry.

    I will likely do the first three-pack of bullywugs, and then a command pack with a champion, shaman, and chief.

    Depending on how well these do, an additional two packs of variant warriors would seem like a good idea, providing I can get them out the door.

    I also should say I am having all of them made for use with slotta bases, and they will be packaged with a 25mm round base.

    Continuity of design is important with me, so I plan to get things done as they can be done without compromising my values. Meaning, Jason has agreed to help me with all of my miniatures because I don't want discrepancies with their style of scale or otherwise.

    Once I get the ball rolling, I hope to be able to release one new blister pack every month and for a three pack of humanoids I am likely going to have a price tag of $ 14.99 to $ 16.99 depending on information (weight, primarily) that I do not yet have.

    I want to make the miniatures that Greyhawk lovers will put in their collection for keeps. I pretty much got tired of looking around for what I wanted and never finding it. I figured, "hell, I'll do it myself."

    @Cebrion - I want to get to sahuagin after I get the bullywugs squared away, if you have suggestions as to which minis to make that would be cool. I have planned for a three pack of warriors, a two pack of shark riders, a three pack of priestesses, and a single packed baron. Most of the miniatures in the line should feature interchangeable arms.

    After the sahuagin, I want to do three stage lycanthropes (human, animal, hybrid) which Jason really wants to do, so I might have him get one of those done before the sahuagins get launched.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:45 am  

    I'm familiar with Jason's work. He's a good monster guy.

    Looking at the first two units you are doing, and what your campaign is about, it would seem that you have fallen into the old pitfall of getting into the business so that you can get your toys at cost. There's a Dork Tower comic about this very thing, starring the owner of Pegasaurus Games. Laughing

    You gotta love what you do though. Wink

    Shark riders sound very cool. A tab with a bit of coral sticking up, attaching to the shark's belly so support it and make it look like it is swimming through the water. I'd do more than just 3 basic warriors,and definitely go old school U-series covers for the Sahuagins' look. I still haven't seen a really good Sahuagin yet, so I hope yours look good. I believe they are covered under the OGL too(I just checked the SRD). Cool
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:31 am  

    oh, i would love to have griffons!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:39 am  

    When you are just starting out it is best to start with smaller things that cost less to sculpt, that you will sell more of, and that will therefore be more profitable. Once you get a good solid base miniature range going, then you can do the larger or oddball pieces like a griffon, a dragon, giants, etc. Wink

    I'd recommend starting with humanoids and player characters, as that is what most people use the most of in games. After that would be evil NPCs(Lesser Boneheart baby! Cool) and undead. Another thing that few companies have done a good job at are city guard(studded leather, conical helm, cudgels, swords, daggers; sgt. in chain hauberk), which of course could have a hawk on the chest. Wink Before doing city guard though, a great set to do would be a *bandit gang*. Total scum. 1 Half-ogre, a couple half-orcs, 6 scummy humans, and 1 brutal and scummy human leader to keep the rabble in line. They could of course also double as minions for villains. I am reminded of the old sets that Grenadier used to do. 10 minis per box. That worked very well for everything from Orcs to wizards to fighters to whatever.
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:31 am  

    wise words, my friend!

    just remembered the battle for the moathouse chainmail game.

    i wish i had some generic soldiers, but the, you could do Greyhawk generic soldiers, with the emblem of verbobonc, veluna and such.

    in this case, i would love crossbowman and pike man
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:45 am  

    Well, producing minis for mass combat is surely the way to sell more of them, but it requires a lot more planning and start-up funds.

    I know a couple of sculptors, and a friend of mine has his own mini business. Knowing what I know of the cost of having minis sculpted(which can vary) and what it costs to produce them(the cost of having the molds made and the cost of the castings themselves), such a start-up cost can grow to be pretty big. I do resin casting(so I definitely know more about that) and that isn't cheap either. Starting small is definitely the way to go for somebody new to things.
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:14 am  

    just came to me...it may not be possible to use greyhawk "shields", right?
    like the symbols of each city.. Cry
    Site Theocrat

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:27 am  
    Design Style?

    Hi all -
    ChaoticPrime, what is the overall design style that you will be utilizing?
    I'm talking about the differences from old Ral Partha/Iron Wind and Reaper as well as WotC's 3e metal mini's and even their newer plastic mini's.
    The old official AD&D 2e mini's were by Ral Partha and at the time they were the best things on the block. Then of course Reaper came along and kicked everybody's ****. WotC's 3e mini's were OK, but the biggest difference between Reaper and WotC was size. Most mini's today have gone to 28mm with a few of the WotC plastics still being 25mm.
    With the cost effectiveness as well as the greatness of monsters that WotC can utilize with their plastics I do prefer the plastics for this reason. I have a boatload of Reaper PC mini's (far too many are still white primed), but with Reaper focusing on mainly PC's WotC has the market cornered.
    Thus I'm not opposed to seeing new "GH" mini's - in fact I'll purchase what I can get my hands on (I have a few of those non-Ral Partha ones back from the '80's) - even if they're not monsters (although, you've stated that Bullywug's and Sahugaiun are going to be your first sets).
    But I would like to know the conceptual style. I see your wife's artwork - but again style based on Ral Partha or Reaper tells me a bit more.
    Also, will you be going with the lead free Iridium or going back to lead. Iridium seemed to be all the rage in the mid '90's because of the lead poisoning - but with it not being natural to the planet (it comes from metor's and asteroids) it seems that the cost has increased and thus part of the reason Reaper has come out with P65's.
    What other options are there - is plastic an option? even if it's not pre-painted plastic. I've not painted any plastic mini's (I've repainted several of WotC's plastics but I've never painted something that wasn't already based). Guess I mean is it an option for plastic mini's with a base so that we can paint them (nobody else is doing this, so maybe it isn't an option).
    What is your turn around time - from mini concept to greenies to metal (plastic) to being in my greedy little hands? Who else besides art concepts by your wife are you using? Who will be doing the actual sculpting? I've only met one other person (here in Vegas, BABY!) that actually ever sculpted their own mini's. Hmm, wonder if he still does.
    I hope that you keep us informed of what's going on - like pictures of the greenies, pic's of the art concepts (not letting us vote on them, but maybe giving ideas), YouTube video of someone sculpting - you know with today's invasion of privacy stuff - and voyerism, we all want to know what someone else is doing (OK, I don't - I don't even have a Twitter or other stuff accounts).
    I hope some of these ideas are not out of line and maybe helpful.
    Be Well. Be Well Conceptualized.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:27 pm  

    Once I get pictures of the greens I will show them here first thing.

    As for style, I think these miniatures will fit best with your Grenadier and Ral Partha miniatures moreso than your Reaper ones. If you are using a scale of a one-inch square equals five feet, then most of your Reaper guys are going to be about eight to nine feet tall.

    They are true 25mm scale. Now, I am not literally going to be designing every miniatures to be five feet to the eye, I basically am having them sculpted so that 5mm equals 1 foot of height. I believe the bullywugs are around six feet tall if standing straight up, which of course they are not.

    It is my plan to creep along at a conservative pace with releases. I will tell you all day long about what I want to have done, but I will not announce something until I have paid the commission and I will not set stuff up for order until I have it in my garage ready for shipping.

    As for their construction I will most probably be working with Iron Wind Metals to have this done. I would like to have them cast in lead-free pewter or even white metal, depending on the cost.

    I do not know what my turn around is right now from concept to green to production to release. I can tell you that I have everything done that needs to be done, meaning that I am running the company legit to the letter. I will pay full retail for any miniatures that I get from my company. I do not want to fail, I want to have an impact.

    As for my sahuagins, the concept art I will have done will be 100% derived from U3 - The Final Enemy. My sahuagins will not resemble the monstrous fishmen from 2nd Edition and upwards. They are tall green elven-looking bastards with fins and sharp teeth and all that. I want their muscles to be tight and lean like Bruce Lee but evil and aquatic.

    I have thought about undead, but I would want them to be more stylized, like using Wolfgang Bauer's White Kingdom as inspiration for ghouls and ghasts or making zombies undead saxons or something.

    I can also have the miniatures (guards or whatnot) sculpted so that their shields are a blank slate as perhaps an area on their armor or cloak so as to painting or transferring an emblem there would be viable. If some noble-hearted individual here on Canonfire could take the time to create some transfers for print-out that would likely do everyone a proper solid.

    I do not know how to put together a voting poll, but if everyone wants to put together one I promise that after I finish the bullywugs, and the sahuagin, I will commission someone to make the poll piece. I will not be able to make anything huge, though. No large dragons or tarrasque just yet, please.

    I suppose that I should also tell you all the name of my company, although I am reluctant to do so until I get the web page up, but here it is.

    Secret Skeleton Miniatures

    I will not have a site up until I get product ready to ship, so don't look for one.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 2:07 pm  

    Oh yeah, as for plastic miniatures, perhaps in the future. I have had a pretty difficult time finding a mould maker and producer just for metal. I would think that someone who routinely moulds plastic pieces would require minimum orders and whatnot.

    I think that if sometime down the road I could get someone to do cheaper plastic moulds I could release boxed sets of like, all the bullywugs or something. It is just an idea, but for now I want to stay close to earth and creep along this path very slowly and cautiously because at this stage, literally every dollar makes a huge difference to my survival. I have enough money for what I am doing now, so I feel as long as I remain prudent I will make it.

    I am doing all of my marketing on the internet for free. You guys here at Canonfire may make all of the difference. All of my profits will be going to making more miniatures. So the better I do, the more cool stuff you will all see.

    Pretty much everything we will be doing is from the 1977 AD&D Monster Manual, the Fiend Folio, and all of the old modules. So if I do a creature, such as a griffin, it will be from there. Continuity is king to me, so that's what you're looking to get.

    There is also a list of miniatures which are non-GSL or OGL which I legally cannot produce, but I am not totally against finding some shenanigans to skirt around that...but that's still up in the air, regardless.

    I won't be using the real names on the packaging unless they are from mythology. Like, Bullywugs will be Frog Men from the Vast Marsh, and sahuagins will be Devil Men of the Deep. Peryton is mythology, griffin, manticore, David Lee Roth, svirneblin, loads still is.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:13 pm  

    "david lee roth"

    Laughing

    i wish all good to you and Secret Skeleton!

    funny thing is that im doing a translation of some texts from DnD Lead (http://dndlead.com/default.htm) about oficial d&d miniatures, but i intend to do a "non-oficial" one in the future. hope to write about you, my friend!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:34 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    They are true 25mm scale. Now, I am not literally going to be designing every miniatures to be five feet to the eye, I basically am having them sculpted so that 5mm equals 1 foot of height. I believe the bullywugs are around six feet tall if standing straight up, which of course they are not.


    I would recommend NOT using a "feet to the eyes" measurement. Give height from the sole of the foot to the top of the head. Artistically speaking, standard height is 6 feet, so 5mm per foot would be 30mm, which is about standard these days(it really is a great size for painting). This is how artistic proportions are figured(in one foot increments up to 6 feet; from the sole of the foot to top of the head). Whoever first thought up the "feet to eyes" method needs to be killed horribly, resurrected, killed again, etc. Then, some complete and utter imbecile began including the thickness of the attached base in the height(bottom of base to the eyes)! The idiot who first started doing this needs to be beaten to death by three year olds(yes, because it would take longer)! Evil Grin

    I would highly recommend that you go with a more standard size as the utility of your minis will be higher(ie. they will blend in with other miniature ranges well) and thus will be more attractive to more buyers. Believe it or not, a noticeable difference in scales turns off many buyers. Suck them in rather than turn them away. As your mini range is going to be small for while, being proprietary will only hurt you.

    chaoticprime wrote:
    It is my plan to creep along at a conservative pace with releases. I will tell you all day long about what I want to have done, but I will not announce something until I have paid the commission and I will not set stuff up for order until I have it in my garage ready for shipping.


    Yes, don't announce anything until you have a green in your hand and it has been paid for. Some stuff you may not want to announce until the molds have been made for it. Either/or.

    chaoticprime wrote:
    As for their construction I will most probably be working with Iron Wind Metals to have this done. I would like to have them cast in lead-free pewter or even white metal, depending on the cost.


    Those are basically the same thing. "Lead free pewter" is a white metal. there are of course different alloys of "white metal", and they have been called interesting things(like "Ralladium" Laughing), but the metals that most companies use are about the same. If Ironwind does offer more than one type of casting material, ask about the hardness and brittleness aspects of each. Or, just go with "what they normally use", as whatever alloy they normally use is perfect.

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I do not know what my turn around is right now from concept to green to production to release.
    I'll try to remember to ask somebody about that this Sunday.

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I do not know how to put together a voting poll, but if everyone wants to put together one I promise that after I finish the bullywugs, and the sahuagin, I will commission someone to make the poll piece. I will not be able to make anything huge, though. No large dragons or tarrasque just yet, please.


    PM me the details and I'll set up a poll for you. Also, if I don't forget, I'll post a slew of images on how to set up a poll(for you and everyone else).
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:00 am; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:24 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The idiot who first started doing this needs to be beaten to death by three year olds(yes, because it would take longer)! Evil Grin



    ...with spoons! Evil Grin
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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:27 pm  

    Well, regardless of what scale they are attributed to, when I design them I will consider 5mm to be equal to 1 foot. When posting photos of the miniatures at our store, I will be very specific to their size.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:36 pm  

    That will make people VERY happy. Pic of the mini next to a ruler. Cool
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Site Theocrat

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    Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:23 pm  
    Size Matters

    Hi all -
    Yes, size matters in miniature.
    I have a boatload of old Ral Partha mini's that look like Halfling's nowadays because they are 25mm when compared to the "heroic" 28mm that Reaper is using. No idea what actual size is but a wizard from 1e and 2e days of Ral Partha is a Gnome or Halfling sized wizard in comparison. Even the early plastics from WotC's first DDM sets are much smaller than what they are in later 3.5 DDM2 and now 4th Edition DDM.
    I must agree with being beaten by three year-olds. In fact I declare it a religious act to be beaten by three year-olds.
    Now Go Forth and Be Religiously Beaten by Three Year-Olds.
    Be Well. Be Well Aged.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:05 am  

    I've added a poll to the thread. Be sure to vote. If you don't see an option there that you want, then vote for the nearest one and then SPECIFICALLY post what it is in your reply. I only put the choices that most people would require to use in a game. As the "Fantastical Monster" option covers such a vast number or critters, post what type of fantastical monster you would like to see. Other choices likewise cover a lot of options, so SPECIFICALLY mention what you'd like to see.

    ***Keep in mind that only creatures covered in the SRD HERE are even an option. Also, keep the size of the creature to Large/Huge or smaller. Basically the mini needs to be small enough so that it fits on a 40mm or 50mm sized base comfortably.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:40 am  

    Okay, so I voted for "Orcs". So far as the minis would look, by "Orcs" I mean Holloway/Elmore/Trampier/Roger Raupp style "Orcs", not the pig-faced Orcs of the MMI.

    See the cover of Dragon #62 and the article "The Gods of the Orcs" inside of it, and the adventure "Citadel by the Sea" in Dragon #78, page 48 for picture references.

    Wow! What a pain in the butt it is to find pics of old D&D art on the web. Not much out there at all, so those references will have to do.
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 6:12 am  

    i voted for "soldiers", inspired in this dragonsfoot topic"Battle for the Moathouse"
    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18776&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

    you see, troopers dont need to be human, as you can have som elven archer company, or halfling slingers, and so on.
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:09 pm  

    I voted for NPC Villains, since having a box set of folks that would be useful in GH-specific campaigns is about my perfect sweet-spot as a DM and a consumer. The same could be said for famous PCs too.

    Also: where in KS are you located, chaoticprime? I'm in Wichita, so if you're nearby, it would be great to get together sometime.

    Lastly: in addition to Otherworld Miniatures, you may want to look at Center Stage Minis @ http://www.centerstagerpgs.com/ since they're also doing a line of retro-minis and have already produced a dracolisk and sahuagins with some other figures in process.
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    Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:48 pm  

    I voted orcs too (pig headed of course).
    But I would really die to see miniatures of Beek Gwenders of Croodle, Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter, Frush O' Suggil etc. :)
    A set with the Circle of Eight wouln't be too terrible, either.
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:25 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    I voted orcs too (pig headed of course).
    But I would really die to see miniatures of Beek Gwenders of Croodle, Gleep Wurp the Eyebiter, Frush O' Suggil etc. :)
    A set with the Circle of Eight wouln't be too terrible, either.


    i thought someone said that they werent doing pig faced orcs
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:40 am  

    Say Iuz the Old, Ivid the Undying and Rary the Traitor? I don't know which ones people would want.
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am  

    Hi.

    I see a few of you are voting for orcs. I am curious - why orcs? There are already tons of orc options from various other sources for you to choose from - including the wonder pig-faced orcs from Otherworld miniatures.

    The reason I ask is simple. I am the the other half of Secret Skeleton Miniatures. Chaoticprime and I are brothers - he is the heart and soul of the company and I am the number and money dork.

    One of the things he and I talked and talked about prior to beginning our venture was the existence of, or rather a seeming glut of, certain types of miniatures - specifically orcs, goblins, zombies, and skeletons. We didn't honestly think there would be that much additional demand for such things. As a small company, we cannot afford to take any risks on anything that isn't practically guaranteed to turn some kind of reasonable profit.

    Now granted, the numbers thus far are far from conclusive, but I am still very curious what is driving the "orc vote".
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:07 am  

    I'm just guessing since I haven't done any real research, but I suspect the reasons behind the selection of orcs is that while there are lots of orcs out there, lots of people prefer one style of orc over another. Some people like the pig-faced orcs, some like the hairy 3.5e kind of orcs, etc. I, for example, hated the hairy ape-like 3.5e orcs. On the other hand I'm not fond of the pig-faced depiction of them from the 1e MM either. In fact, I have yet to see any orcs I really liked, so I've ended up using them all. But if I did find some I liked I'd buy them in a heartbeat.

    But none of that really helps you as a company. If my hypothesis is correct and you decide to start making orcs, then you'd run a big risk of producing them in a style that nobody likes. That's not a very good risk.
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:07 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I'm just guessing since I haven't done any real research, but I suspect the reasons behind the selection of orcs is that while there are lots of orcs out there, lots of people prefer one style of orc over another. Some people like the pig-faced orcs, some like the hairy 3.5e kind of orcs, etc. I, for example, hated the hairy ape-like 3.5e orcs. On the other hand I'm not fond of the pig-faced depiction of them from the 1e MM either. In fact, I have yet to see any orcs I really liked, so I've ended up using them all.


    Hehe. That cracks me up, and(unknowingly) answers the question too.

    Why is there a glut of orcs out there? Because people like orcs!!! Even when they don't like a particular range of models, they often still buy them just because they are orcs!!! Laughing

    Consequently the market can bear there being a whole bunch of orcs to choose from, and more orcs will not be a bad thing or change that in any way. Just make sure your orcs look good, have their own distinct look and character. Don't put them in Roman armor or anything lame like that. Only a few companies have done pig-faced orcs over the years(one long ago, one very recently), but I still don't like them at all. The most recently ones are too cartoony in a Snarfquest-ish sort of way. I designated the look for orcs that I chose because nobody has done it yet, and because it looks good. Here's some pics:







    The styles are a little bit different from pic to pic, but a conglomeration of the whole would look good, and unique enough. I like the facial structure of the orc with the giant rats the best. The tusks could be toned down ever so slightly, but that's the type of face I would like to see. That's just me though. I particularly like Holloway's eyed for clothing and armor styles. It similar to real world stuff, but not exactly the same as real world stuff, meaning it is unique, yet functional, unlike some idiotic fantasy stuff I've seen.

    One other pointer: know you subject matter very well. Researchers! Researchers! Researchers!(yes, I'm stealing Steve Jobs' "Developers Developers! Developers!") Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:57 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:



    I've always been partial to the Gruumsh pic, above. More apish, less piggish.
    Quote:

    One other pointer: know you subject matter very well. Research! Research! Research!(yes, I was inspired by Steve Jobs' "Developers Developers! Developers!") Laughing

    I think you mean Steve "Monkey Boy" Ballmer of Microsoft, not Steve "Black Turtleneck" Jobs of Apple. Both would probably be horrified at the confusion. ;-)

    The original monkey boy dance, for the few who haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc

    Aaaand...Ballmer meets the iPod for a Zune ad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FncILxajmlw

    BTW - how did you get the line breaks in your sig? Everything I've tried comes out showing the HTML instead of the breaks.
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    Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:15 pm  

    Yeah, Steve Ballmer. I knew it was "a Steve". The guy's a crack-up to be sure. Laughing

    Also, I recommend that chaoticprime and company not make any suggestions, give ideas, or anything like that now. Ask for clarification of poll choices perhaps, but try no to bias the voters. Telling us of your conversations about what you think people want may very well skew the results. Let the people tell you what they want. If you ask for yes-men then that is what you'll mostly get. If you ask for unbiased opinions, and really do want them, then be prepared to hear something that may be counter to what you are thinking.

    Once the popular categories get detailed down, we can do another poll with more specific choices for each major category that people choose.
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:17 am  

    i would prefer soldiers, but that is the palce my campaing is going ;)

    as for orcs, i like the 2ed looks, kind like the warcraft/warhammer ones.
    but then, they would be no diferent from those models, eh?
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:42 am  
    Not An Early Voter

    Hi all -
    I always vote early to avoid the lines. Plus Cthulu says to vote early and vote often.
    However, I've yet to vote here. I've been reading each response to this topic and like each of the arguments for orcs so far. I have always loved that Dragon Magazine cover (as a kid, I tore off the covers and hung them on my wall [I know, hearsay now, something I'd never do as an adult - now I'd print that cover and hang that up![), and am in favor of those orcs versus the others that have been posted.
    However, here are some of the best orcs out there - by Reaper Mini's
    These ones have major tusks:

    I actually painted this one a bluish color - to match more of the color of the 'orcs' from Star Wars Ep3 (the ones protecting Jaba). That was my inspiration.


    This one I painted a pinkish lavender color. I feel that orcs won't always be green.


    These orcs don't have those major tusks, but they follow an early 3e or even a later 2e aspect and look to the feel. These are 'black orcs' and thus I painted mine with a blackish color.


    This orc is one that I don't have. But the look of this looks like a middle to late AD&D 1e to an early 2e orc.

    However, again, I still have not voted. I also am not looking to vote for orcs, because there are so many out there - from Reaper, from WotC's plastics (OK, not in the same league as Reaper, but still they're out there, as well as the older Ral Partha / Iron Wind that I still have.

    I like the original post ideas about 'guards' that have a shield with the actual logo for Greyhawk City, Veluna, Horned Society versus those with a blank shield and we have someone draw the heraldry and we use a sticker to put it on the shield. This is more of a personal aspect because I've never done it before. For me, I always remove the primer on the swords and shields - scraping that away so that the sword/shield has a more natural look. I also usually nick the shield a tad as well to show its 'abuse' from combat.
    So if the guards and villains would have a more regional mark to them, that would be beneficial. However, that is also limiting, as I've now moved to WoG 2.0 (Golarion) and maybe a Greyhawk City guard wouldn't be as usable (unlikely, but it still might limit some people's choice of purchase, thus going back to the sticker thing being more usable in the long run). But the breakdown of player characters, villains, bandits, mercenaries, and guards are all so close that its hard to choose one. Bandits and mercenaries are very much the same - unless there is a canonized mercenary band that he'd be utilizing.
    I do like the idea of fantastical creatures. But without an idea of what options might be utilized, I'm hesitant to vote for that aspect. Also, I like that other companies Sea Devil Men (an earlier post listed the company). Those are awesome, and if I had a job and money (80 weeks and still no job) I'd be buying some.
    In the end, though, if I knew which aspect of NPC Villains we'd be looking at that would certainly be a choice. Warduke? The Lord-Mayor of Greyhawk City (he's certainly a villain)? Iuz the 'Good'? Vecna? Graz'zat? Those are what I'd like to see. Even over fantastical monsters.
    So as with my political voting, I wait to see the debates, see what aspects I like about the canidate and what they each bring out in the other. So I'm leaning towards NPC Villains or the Fantastical Creatures, but I'd like to know what each one considers major topics and areas of concern.

    Be Well. Be Well Voted.
    Theocrat Issak

    EDIT - How come my images didn't post? I did the whole push the img button, posted the url and then posted the img button again. Also, who designed the Web site. It says Font Colour :Default - We are not British. We are American English and Color has no U.

    ***Image links fixed.

    --- Cebrion***

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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:29 am  

    It seems NPC Villains has pulled ahead. I think the poll should stay open for quite some time, however, maybe some people should make posts as to which NPC villains they would like to see.

    Greyhawk has a wonderful Rogues Gallery, I am personally curious as to which of them is most wanted to be seen as a miniature.
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:47 am  
    Re: Not An Early Voter

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Hi all -
    I always vote early to avoid the lines. Plus Cthulu[/color] says to vote early and vote often.
    However, I've yet to vote here. I've been reading each response to this topic and like each of the arguments for orcs so far. I have always loved that Dragon Magazine cover (as a kid, I tore off the covers and hung them on my wall [I know, hearsay now, something I'd never do as an adult - now I'd print that cover and hang that up![), and am in favor of those orcs versus the others that have been posted.
    However, here are some of the best orcs out there - by Reaper Mini's
    These ones have major tusks:

    I actually painted this one a bluish color - to match more of the color of the 'orcs' from Star Wars Ep3 (the ones protecting Jaba). That was my inspiration.


    This one I painted a pinkish lavender color. I feel that orcs won't always be green.


    These orcs don't have those major tusks, but they follow an early 3e or even a later 2e aspect and look to the feel. These are 'black orcs' and thus I painted mine with a blackish color.


    This orc is one that I don't have. But the look of this looks like a middle to late AD&D 1e to an early 2e orc.

    However, again, I still have not voted. I also am not looking to vote for orcs, because there are so many out there - from Reaper, from WotC's plastics (OK, not in the same league as Reaper, but still they're out there, as well as the older Ral Partha / Iron Wind that I still have.

    I like the original post ideas about 'guards' that have a shield with the actual logo for Greyhawk City, Veluna, Horned Society versus those with a blank shield and we have someone draw the heraldry and we use a sticker to put it on the shield. This is more of a personal aspect because I've never done it before. For me, I always remove the primer on the swords and shields - scraping that away so that the sword/shield has a more natural look. I also usually nick the shield a tad as well to show its 'abuse' from combat.
    So if the guards and villains would have a more regional mark to them, that would be beneficial. However, that is also limiting, as I've now moved to WoG 2.0 (Golarion) and maybe a Greyhawk City guard wouldn't be as usable (unlikely, but it still might limit some people's choice of purchase, thus going back to the sticker thing being more usable in the long run). But the breakdown of player characters, villains, bandits, mercenaries, and guards are all so close that its hard to choose one. Bandits and mercenaries are very much the same - unless there is a canonized mercenary band that he'd be utilizing.
    I do like the idea of fantastical creatures. But without an idea of what options might be utilized, I'm hesitant to vote for that aspect. Also, I like that other companies Sea Devil Men (an earlier post listed the company). Those are awesome, and if I had a job and money (80 weeks and still no job) I'd be buying some.
    In the end, though, if I knew which aspect of NPC Villains we'd be looking at that would certainly be a choice. Warduke? The Lord-Mayor of Greyhawk City (he's certainly a villain)? Iuz the 'Good'? Vecna? Graz'zat? Those are what I'd like to see. Even over fantastical monsters.
    So as with my political voting, I wait to see the debates, see what aspects I like about the canidate and what they each bring out in the other. So I'm leaning towards NPC Villains or the Fantastical Creatures, but I'd like to know what each one considers major topics and areas of concern.

    Be Well. Be Well Voted.
    Theocrat Issak

    EDIT - How come my images didn't post? I did the whole push the img button, posted the url and then posted the img button again. Also, who designed the Web site. It says Font Colour :Default - We are not British. We are American English and Color has no U.


    theocrat, i believe i got the pictures. you were just copying the url of the site, not for the picture
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:51 am  

    chaoticprime, maybe it would work better if you open another poll to see about the npc and stuff :)

    hey, Robilar could be a good and a evil npc, ehehhee
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:04 pm  

    To be clear I have not voted and have no dog in the fight but I can see the minature confusion. To succeed these fellows need to hit the ground running which means hopefully discovering a needed but untapped aspect of the minatures market not attempt to satisfy a perfect wishlist for an orc that comes later when the process runs smoothly and they have become established so be patient.

    Rather then what minatures should I do ?

    What minature do you want but can't seem to find Question

    Orc Commentary
    Players always seem to complain their is no variety and yet when asked vote "orc" once again. In part because we each have are specific perfect image (damn imagination).

    However as I looked over the post a thought occured; why must their be but one archetype orc. Other races have variation and enough orc interpretations exist on the market to offer regional or dare I say different tribal orcs. Various features and equipment (armour and weapons) provide regional distinctiveness.

    Cebrion Pics
    White Horseman: Orc appear to wearing fur and ofcourse the horned helmets. Popular although false scandanavian theme. Bone March Orcs or Northern Kingdom. Orcs: Apelike heavily armed and armoured very functional.

    Dragon Cover: I immediately given the red/gold colour scheme of the Orcish Uruzary Corps of the Sultanate of Zeif. Baklunish Basin has orcs too Wink. Orcs: Elaborate flashy almost ceremonial armour and arms but still apelike.

    Forest Pic: Thought of Tehna with the flan connection but could be the Vesve also. These "pig face" orcs could be from the lands of Iuz. Could be a natural variant or whim of Iuz to identify his orcs. Sometimes I feel the whimsy of Iuz is overlooked. Do not forget Iuz does have a sense of humour and when not boiling paladins he gets bored. Orcs: pig faced mishnash of armour and various weapons. Dented shields different heraldry to signify scavanging on the various battlefields.

    Perhaps the more apelike orcs resent these "pig-faced freaks" and the Iuz orcs are more determined to enter battle in part because they suffer self-esteem issues about their own features.
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:49 pm  

    What we need i feel,is a range of personalities like Mordenkainen,Iuz,Rary and so forth.Now i know that these characters are licensed,however,they don't have to be exact duplicates as to ensue legal troubles of any kind,but i do believe that you could make simaler figurines of the over all character designs without crossing the border into a sea of legality.What you have in mind is inspiring nontheless.
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:58 pm  

    Did i fail to mention Vecna???
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    Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:00 pm  

    Another person why you will certain choices time and again is that few companies actually do a line of them that people generally like. While most people may not want whole armies of a certain type of miniature, they do often want a small warband of them(20 or so). i fall into this category. having a rhyme and reason to your releases is a very good thing, and if you do competing warbands, it is good to release one new thing for each of them rather than a bunch of new things for just one of them. There is equitability in this, and it keeps the broad range appeal of your line active. Everyone who bought even one thing will have something to look forward too. privateer Press has done a great job of adopting this tactic.

    Personalities are fine, but you have to look at them for what they are. They are all about lower utility but higher coolness factor. You could do Vecna in the context of a whole undead range. He becomes the "Arch-lich" leader for them. When we see he's missing a pinpoint of light in one eye, and a hand(left iirc), we kinda know who he's supposed to be. The same goes for other personalities who can be rolled into the PC category. We really know what the three 3-model sets of "The Wizards' Conclave" is supposed to represent. Wink

    Though I only voted for orcs, if I could have set up the poll so that people could vote for two choices then I would have. If I could have, I would have voted for "Orcs" and NPCs/villains". Start with a theme rather than go willy nilly all over the place.
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:54 am  

    and lizardmen keep getting votes, but no explanation! Laughing
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:14 am  

    If I do lizardmen, they will resemble the AD&D Monster Manual or the back cover of U2 - Danger at Dunwater. I would like to begin a line of them, I just need to bide my time...
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:52 am  

    rossik wrote:
    and lizardmen keep getting votes, but no explanation! Laughing


    Yeah, I don't get the lizardman thing. I have nothing against them, but I'm assuming most miniature buyers go for what they need in their own games. I can only think of a few mods that use lizardmen and I don't know of any minis games that use them extensively, so I'm curious about why they're so popular. Perhaps we should add this to the ever-growing list of gaming mysteries.
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:01 am  

    rossik wrote:
    and lizardmen keep getting votes, but no explanation! Laughing

    Tastes like chicken? Happy

    I still like the lizardmen from Grenadier's "Denizens of the Swamp" box - http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tpope/sol/grenadier/images/2010.jpg. The gnolls in that one were pretty cool, too, but I could do without the carrot-nosed troll.
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:19 pm  

    All tribes of humanoids are worth having, if you ask me. Generally what I do when designing a campaign is go over the map and designate which humanoid tribes live where.

    Meaning, if I need to have adventurers pass through an area I know what I can joyfully harass them with.

    You would be surprise how a tribe of lizardmen can turn into a really cool thing. First off, they are not evil and they respect strength more than anything else. I mean, if you kill off 2/3 of their tribe, the latter third will likely join up with you rather than oppose you. Your adventuring party could wind up with lizardfolk henchmen. Every party needs a Chewbacca, and lizardfolk fill that niche nicely, too.
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:41 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    All tribes of humanoids are worth having, if you ask me. Generally what I do when designing a campaign is go over the map and designate which humanoid tribes live where.

    Meaning, if I need to have adventurers pass through an area I know what I can joyfully harass them with.

    You would be surprise how a tribe of lizardmen can turn into a really cool thing. First off, they are not evil and they respect strength more than anything else. I mean, if you kill off 2/3 of their tribe, the latter third will likely join up with you rather than oppose you. Your adventuring party could wind up with lizardfolk henchmen. Every party needs a Chewbacca, and lizardfolk fill that niche nicely, too.


    i think they are cool, its just a surprise since nobody comment about their lizard votes :D

    but i agree too about the chewbacca thing: Robilar had Quij :P, and batman had robin...


    oh, wait, not like that! Embarassed


    about NPCs: i think i know the answer, but the inspiration art would be the pre-3edition art, right?
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    Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:53 pm  

    Yeah, the entire purpose of my company is to produce miniatures styled after the early years of DnD. To get miniatures out there that are the real, original thing. I personally do not care much for the monster designs of 3E and (especially) 4E so therefore I took it upon myself to make the miniatures I want to have. A side-effect of this is that to afford them, I must therefore sell them.

    However, as I realize there are most certainly like-minded people out there (especially here at CF) I would like to include all of you in my vision of making the miniatures that I want to have.

    Does that make any sense?

    At any rate, I will let this first poll run 30 days from its first day, and then I will make a second poll featuring a sub-set of the winner of this first poll. Then we can get to specifying the design of the overall winner.
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:52 am  

    Ya know,i've never seen a range of Greyhawk miniatures from the 2e Greyhawk monstrous manual.Those might be worth looking into as well,since you have a lot of competition on those darned pig-faced orcs.But i think i'd still have to give the old fiend folio a look over,those monsters we're great! (aside from the wolf in sheeps clothing/rabbit on a tree-stump monster.)Problem with that is,i think too many other companies are catching on to the same idea but are charging an arm and a leg.What do you plan on charging for these miniatures once thier ready for selling?
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:10 am  

    chaoticprimes's 4th post on page 1 of this thread says likely $14.99 to $16.99 US, though that is surely just an estimate. First things first though. Give chaoticprime a chance to get back his first batch of production minis cast in metal, total the initial investment costs, figure out how many units he'll have to sell to break even, let alone make a profit, and then you'll likely get a more informed response. Until then it would be unrealistic to expect an exact price on things. Who knows. Maybe there will be a poll on pricing and packaging options too.
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:40 am  

    If wotc's prices are a comparative estimation, I could produce them in pvc, have my 4 year old daughter paint them, and then sell them to you for 4 dollars apiece. I am joking, of course.

    I think a 3 pack will be about 12 to 15 dollars depending on the cost of production. Reaper has a three pack of hobgoblins thats 15.99, so that's the best I can give at the moment.
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:13 pm  
    4 Year-Olds Beating or Painting...All The Same

    Hi all -
    Hmm, PVC might not be too bad. Not just pre-painted mini's. It is one that I did post about earlier. But if you're daughter can paint like those Malysian kids (some are decent, must be painted by 6 Year-Olds) then I'd be open to it. However, their attention span seems to be lacking and I don't think that you'd even be able to get the quantity that you'd be looking for - for your own game much less to sell.
    I'm not opposed to plastics that I have to paint. I look at my friend that just bought Space Hulk and put together those plastic mini's. Also Zvezda makes plastic mini's. They're a Russian company. I have two of their castles (25mm) and one small box of wizards that I've not yet put together. I don't think that plastic should be overlooked.
    I do realize that the look of plastic isn't what you would want. However, you have to look at all the smaller miniature companies out there. Crunchy Waffle (just one I can remember off the top of my head) charges a bit more for their mini's than Reaper. But I see one CW mini at HobbyTown and I see 500 Reaper mini's, so mass production is the key there for lower costs. You have to seriously get into distrubution with ACD, Diamond and even BlackHawk before you can really quote a price. Selling small amounts from your Web site will never truly profit you much - not enough to make it more than just part of your hobby.
    I speak of this from a business stand point. My best friend owned Dreamland Hobbies here in Vegas, BABY!. He made enough money the first couple of years, but the downside was that it was his hobby and he quickly grew tired of the running the business. While I was still in college we discussed me purchasing the place, but it would have to wait until I graduated. He was quite wealthy, and made more than enough from the store (I looked at the books, lawyers were involved and such) but with all things, things happen. You have to have enough money to make it without thinking that your game related 'store' will bring you much income.
    If you're doing it to break even, it's a long haul. First and foremost you need to join GAMA, attend GAMA/Origins and get to know people in the industry. GAMA is a great organization - they helped me with one of my college papers as well as helping me to determine what was the best course of action for moving forward with buying Dreamland Hobbies. There are several people that will help on the business end, as well as the creative end. ACD will certainly be willing to help - tell you what needs they have and how best to get your product into stores.
    I hope some of these ideas help. It's your (and your brother's) project so I hope you the best.
    Be Well. Be Well Stocked.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:13 pm  

    I am not even gonna think "distributor" for at least two years or more. Keeping it small has its advantages, especially in the profit department. My costs will not reflect our own labor, and I fully am prepared to work for free until such a point that we can openly afford to get paid for what we do.

    Once I have a catalog of products and a market presence I could afford to go with distributors but I know of several online miniatures companies that do very well without dealing with them in the least, even after several years of being in business.

    I am confident in my numbers, as conservative as they are, that as long as I do not betray my convictions and stick to my books, I will be more than alright.
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    Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:52 am  

    chaoticrpime (everytime i read your nickname, i think about a evil optimus prime), this may be a silly question, but the miniatures bases are going to be round ou square?
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    Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:41 am  

    I intend to release them with 25mm round slotta bases. I used to use square ones for all of my monsters and then round for the pc's, but after playing Castles & Crusades where facing matters rotating a square base gets annoying. Plus, when I really sat down and looked at them, round ones seemed to look better.

    Not that its too big of a deal. I usually cut the slotta off of them and then sculpt a base anyway.
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    Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:58 pm  

    Slotta? Bummer.
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    Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:25 am  

    Here is some preliminary concept artwork for the Sahuagin I drew up tonight.

    http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/chaoticprime/Sahuagin.jpg

    Obviously I am going for the U series look not the later look applied more in 2nd Ed.

    Also, I like slotta bases best because they can easily become anything you want. I do not like integrated bases as they do not always fit within a 25mm square or they are too tall, etc. I usually end up sawing integrated off.

    With slotta you can just clip off the little bar and customize away or even leave it on and just detail the base later.
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    Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:07 am  

    Nice art. Did you check out Center Stage Miniatures' sahuagin yet?: http://www.centerstagerpgs.com/catalog/
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    Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:23 am  

    Like your concept, Chaoticprime. Happy

    Reminds me of "The Creature from the Black Lagoon!" Ahh, the good old days! Cool rolleyes

    Thanks for the link, Grodog! Happy
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    Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:55 am  

    Thank you for your compliments. Yes, I have seen the Centerstage Sea Devils, but I really don't care much for them. I love the Dracolisk they have, its cool-as-hell, but their fish men just are not what I want. Point of fact, before I decided to just up and make my own miniatures, they were one of the places I was very nearly about to buy from just to have sahuagin. I ended up buying a dozen or so slithe from Reaper, but once I get my own I'll sell them off but quick.

    I will probably have my wife do a final drawing after my brother and I have sat down and what not. Also, I want to announce a (sort of) contest to the person who can give me the best original design for an underwater crossbow that looks thematic to the Sea Devils.

    The designer I choose will get a pack of Secret Skeleton miniatures on me.

    I know its a rather hollow offer until I actually get them made, but I can think of no better place to pick brains about this kind of thing than right here.
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:19 am  

    I just officially hired Jo Brumby to sculpt the sahuagin miniatures. He says he will start this coming Friday. They will be done in a pack of three with one wielding a spear, another a net and trident, and a third will be fighting with his claws. The arms will be interchangeable. You can take a look at Jo's awesome catalog at www.miniaturemonsters.com.
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:49 am  

    I rebooted my collection at the time Ral Partha took over so I'd love to see goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, ogres, blullywugs, and sahuagin that bear some resemblance to those sculpts rather than anything too radically new. I'm a traditionalist too - I like my draco orientalis as wingless so I use the old Genadier gold dragon.

    I think the original concept of the sea devils was based on some old Jon Pertwee Dr Who episodes, as were the locacinth? (although I don't recall their Dr Who species names) - right down to their alignments - the Sea Devils wanted to conquer Earth (LE) while the locacinth equivalents just wanted to be left alone (N).

    My vote would generally go for both fantastic creatures and npcs. We have seen enough background and/or illustrations for likenesses of Iuz, Iggwilv, Tenser, Otto, Jallarzi, Evard, Robilar, Cobb Darg, and dozens of other less well known characters.
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:13 am  

    Awesome stuff there, Chaoticprime. Looks like you hired the right guy. And thanks for the link. Happy
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:15 am  

    Doctor Who and the Sea Devils, haha. That is the name of the episode. Most of my designs are coming from the AD&D Monster Manual.

    There were the Sea Devils and the Silurians. I like me some Doctor Who.
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:46 pm  

    Any chance you can give us a preview of the 10cm bulette art, chaoticprime? (I was digging around on OW's boards tonight :D ). I take it you're going for the giant-sized versions hinted at in the description (11 HD, 11' tall at the shoulder, so probably over 15' long?). So is your 10cm one about 20HD (if 25mm = 6 feet or so)? :D

    Also, do you have any plans to create any multi-armed sahuagin? I don't recall ever seeing them done before.
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:00 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Doctor Who and the Sea Devils, haha. That is the name of the episode. Most of my designs are coming from the AD&D Monster Manual.

    There were the Sea Devils and the Silurians. I like me some Doctor Who.


    Silurians! They were totally ripped off - they even look exactly like Locacinth (are they even called locacinth? It's something like that). I wonder why they never ripped off the Zygons?

    I guess the Ochre Jelly was ripped off from the Blob? What other monsters have their origins in trashy sci fi and old B movies I wonder?
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:59 am  

    Dopplegangers are kind of a rip-off of the Zygons.

    I plan to do a big four-armed sahuagin Baron as the crowning piece of the sahuagin line. He will be about 45mm tall and cool as hell.

    I do not have concept art for the bulette yet. I based the size off of the original monster manual scale of the creature of which I am doing an averaged sized example. The bulette will be pretty big, I think 9 feet to the shoulder (45mm) and have again as long. I think four inches is what it actually will be. I actually am still designing that one, but I will keep you updated.

    I also heard from both sculptors to expect an update within this week, so I hope that means pictures. If so, you'll all be the first to see them.

    BTW, in three days the poll will change to which NPC Villain everyone wants. I will give that poll 30 days and then we can design him/her/it specifically.

    Additionally, I have been thinking about having an aurumvorax sculpted at some point. Would anyone be interested in a golden gorger?
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I have been thinking about having an aurumvorax sculpted at some point. Would anyone be interested in a golden gorger?


    Yes! Long live the Aurumvorax! One of my favorites back in the day -- sneak into camp, eat up your hard earned treasure! Shocked

    (Hey! Where the heck is the gold!?) Evil Grin

    By all means, do the Aurumvorax. Happy Cool Wink
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:22 am  

    Something else I have considered with the Random Encounters line is having bits of treasure with each miniature. Like, for instance, the bulette would come with a bulette scale shield you could attach to a pc miniature. The aurumvorax could come with some manner of shield or whatnot of its fur. With the otyugh it would not be treasure, rather its eyestalk protruding from a mound of garbage.

    Stuff like that.
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:25 pm  

    Sign me up for one of those too. Happy

    All good ideas Chaotic, I think you're going to do well. Cool
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:58 pm  

    Before starting a new poll for the category winner, NPC Villains, everybody give a list of NPC Villains that you would like to see transformed into miniature form. Cool
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:22 pm  

    In no particular order:

    Obmi
    Zagyg
    The Wizard of the Black Reservoir
    Ecladra
    Lyme
    Charinida
    The Slave Lords
    Acererak, perhaps in various forms (human, lich, demi-lich, demi-lich ghost)
    The Nine Imprisoned demigods
    Iuz
    Iggwilv
    Drenlza (both sleeping on the pedestal, and wielding her sword)
    Lareth the Beautiful
    Lolth
    Personalities of Hommlet and ToEE
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:09 pm  

    Okay. Fine. Let's make it NPC Villains/Heroes then.
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:57 am  

    Watch out for copyright though. Obmi should be listed as demi-god's dwarf lieutenant; Iggwilv should be witch-queen of the north valley; Nerof Gasgal should be mayor of central metropolis etc. You can use my character though - I haven't copyrighted her yet.
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:52 am  

    What, no Zargon?
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    From: brazil

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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:06 pm  

    should be a little disapointing with the choosen one were accererak.

    just a skull with jewels :P
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:00 pm  

    On the plus side a skull laying in a pile of jewels would be cheap as hell to have sculpted. Of course, if you really wanted a cool demi-lich I think Magnificent Egos or Hasslefree did one.

    It looks like a skull floating around in some ethereal ****. I have one laying around somewhere...I think....
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    Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:07 am  
    Grodog's Mistake!

    Hi all -
    I always make all sorts of mistakes, cause I don't know better.
    But Grodog listed all the Imprisoned Demi-Gods by Zayag as well as listing Iuz. But Isn't that implied with the "Imprisoned Demi-Gods by Xaygag"? (I spelled his name differently each time, because well you know, he did.)
    NPC's and villians, what about Braveheart (and his copper dragon), Melf, Warduke (and his steed) and all those other action figures. Like the White Wizard and the half-orc assassin.
    Be Well. Be Well Action Figured.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:00 am  
    Re: Grodog's Mistake!

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Hi all -
    I always make all sorts of mistakes, cause I don't know better.
    But Grodog listed all the Imprisoned Demi-Gods by Zayag as well as listing Iuz. But Isn't that implied with the "Imprisoned Demi-Gods by Xaygag"? (I spelled his name differently each time, because well you know, he did.)
    NPC's and villians, what about Braveheart (and his copper dragon), Melf, Warduke (and his steed) and all those other action figures. Like the White Wizard and the half-orc assassin.
    Be Well. Be Well Action Figured.
    Theocrat Issak



    it could be hard to make a warduke, since Wizards already made one, and he have lots of unique characteritics that i think it would be hard do to a "look like" and still be good.

    but it would be great to see the others!
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