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    Canonfire :: View topic - Suel Lich 3.5 Conversion?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- D&D 3.0e/3.5e/d20/Pathfinder
    Suel Lich 3.5 Conversion?
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    Lemmikins
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    Sat May 21, 2005 11:48 am  
    Suel Lich 3.5 Conversion?

    Has anyone seen a Suel Lich conversion to 3.0 or 3.5 yet? I'm willing to do one on my own, but I'm not confident about it at all.

    Frankly, the Lich in question is a very tangential NPC, with no chance of a direct encounter, so actual stats don't really matter. But I'd like to see a 3.5 conversion if anyone's got one.

    Thanks for any reply,

    L
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
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    Wed May 25, 2005 11:42 pm  

    I haven't seen a conversion for the Suel Lich yet, but that doesn't mean no one has finished one. http://www.enworld.org/cc/index.php has a LOT of the monsters from 1e converted to 3e. However, Campaign Setting monsters dont seem to be included.

    I might actually convert the Suel Lich over myself b/c I have to get that finished to convert an old adventure of mine.

    I will keep all informed on this process.
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
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    Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:19 pm  

    Ok I finally finished the Suel Lich conversion! woot!

    It can either be found in the Downloads section here under Monsters and Races or at the following link http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan/conversions/suellich.html

    Tell me what ye think.
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
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    From: Orland Hills, Illinois

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    Fri May 19, 2006 8:10 am  

    Paizo has now published a 3.5 Suel Lich template in Dragon 339.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 27, 2007
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    Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:07 am  
    Sule Lich Conversion

    Duicarthan wrote:
    Ok I finally finished the Suel Lich conversion! woot!

    It can either be found in the Downloads section here under Monsters and Races or at the following link http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan/conversions/suellich.html

    Tell me what ye think.


    I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts to a 2 year old message.

    I've just compared your Sule Lich to the Lich in the SRD and I think you are missing a couple of things. Here is the SRD version of the lich for reference:
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

    I'll go through both section by section.

    1) Descriptive text:

    The standard lich has the description of what it is in one paragraph and what it looks like in a second paragraph:

    SRD wrote:
    A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.

    A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.


    You mix the two up:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    When the empire of the Suel was destroyed by the Rain of Colorless Fire more than a millennia ago, one of the few creatures to survive this destruction was the Suel lich. This powerful wizard, similar to the common lich, endures the centuries by transferring its life force from one human host to the next. A Suel lich appears as a human with coarse, leathery skin and eyes which glow an ominous black fire. As the Suel lich grows in power, the skin becomes a thick hide, and the fire in its eyes becomes more pronounced. At the peak of its power, the Suel lich is little more than wrinkled husk whose head is bathed in black fire. Those who meet a Suel lich are in for more than they likely can handle.


    I think that it might be a bit clearer if you were to seprate the two types of information and start off with the fact that it is an undead wizard who has used their magical powers to transfer their life force from one human host body to another.

    2) Only Wizards Need Apply?

    Are you saying that sorcererers and clerics and other spellcasters are unable to become a Sule Lich? It seems to be what your flavor text suggests but the normal lich potentially allows all spellcasters to become a lich.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't limit it to only wizards, but if you do exclude sorcerers, clerics and other spellcasters from qualifying for the template an explanation might help.

    3) Human Hosts?

    You say that the Sule Lich "transferring its life force from one human host to the next". But you also say that the Sule Lich is "an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature". (Stress added to both of those sentences is mine.)

    If an elf, dwarf or even a goblin is able to become a Sule Lich why can they only take over a human host?

    Maybe the host should be a humanoid. Maybe it should even have to be the same humanoid race as the "base creature" (i.e. a dwarf Sule Lich can only take over a dwarf body).

    4) Armor Class/Natural Armour

    Sule Lich wrote:
    A Suel lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the base creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better.


    If the Sule Lich switches body then why would it continue to gain a natural armour bonus from its original body (the base creature). Shouldn't you be saying something more like:

    "A Suel lich has a +5 natural armor bonus or the host creature’s natural armor bonus, whichever is better."

    5) Attack/Natural Attacks

    Sule Lich wrote:
    If the base creature can use weapons, the Suel lich retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons.


    If the Sule Lich takes over a human body then it doesn't seem logical that it would continue to keep bite or claw attacks from its original body (the base creature). A human doesn't have any natural attacks.

    I think you have two ways around this problem.

    Either:

    ...the process of possessing a host transforms their body to have the form and natural attacks of the original base creature...

    or

    ...the process of possessing a host gives the Sule lich access to the natural attacks (but not the special abilities) possessed by the host body.

    The second option would only allow a Sule lich to have additional attacks if you changed the rules to allow them to possess humanoid hosts (who might have natural attacks).

    However, you would need to be careful if you allow a Sule lich to take over any humanoid body as they could obtain flying ability from avian humanoids.

    6) Damage/Natural Attacks

    You say this:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    A Suel lich with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d8+5 points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.


    This obviously has the same problem as above.

    7) Special Attacks Formatting

    Your individual special attacks follow a different format to your individual special qualities. It might be worth adjusting your formatting.

    8) Special Attacks/Gaze of Millennia Past (Su)

    You say this:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    Unlike the common lich, the Suel lich revels in combat against weaker foes. Although it normally doesn't go looking for a fight, the creature will often fight to the death against superior forces (and usually wins).


    This is a description of the behavior of the creature rather than something connected with this ability. I think you should move it out of this section into the description at the top of the page.

    9) Special Qualities/Negative Planar Possession (Su)/Humans

    You say this:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    The Suel lich is an unholy amalgamation of the human body and energy from the Negative Material Plane.


    This is another reference to humans. If humans are that important then perhaps the base creature should be a human.

    Otherwise you are saying that a gnome can become a Sule lich and start taking over human bodies. If that is what you want then this isn't a problem, but if it isn't what you want then you might need to make some adjustments.

    10) Special Qualities/Negative Planar Possession (Su)/Host Body

    You say this:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    When it comes time to seek a new body, the essence of the Suel lich must take a host with Hit Die or levels equal to the Suel liches level minus 15. Thus, a 19th level Suel lich must take the form of a 4th level human.


    However, "levels" are meta-game information and monsters should not normally be able to understand them or know what level a human is. (Furthermore all humans will have levels rather than HD.)

    I think that perhaps you need to give the Sule Lich some sort of ability to detect the amount of lifeforce a potential host has. It should be something that works in a general sense similar to Detect Magic.

    Alternately the Sule lich would need to paralise a lot of humans (or humanoids if you allow that) and keep a few of them in storage (in case their existing host was destroyed).

    You then say this:

    Sule Lich wrote:
    If successful, the essence of the victim is destroyed when possessed; the spirit is annihilated and cannot be raised or restored by a miracle or wish spell.


    If a PC is unfortunate enough to be taken over by a Sule lich you don't give the rest of the party any incentive apart from revenge for attacking the Sule lich.

    I think that this creature might be more dangerous if the original soul was imprisioned by the Sule lich and they were burining it out in order to stay "alive". This would make the adventure party want to deal with the creature to get their friend back. (Mind you I don't have access to the original material, so don't know if that fits in with its style.)

    You say that the Sule lich "causes the body to age at three times the normal rate" so if you provided a method to remove the lich and keep it away from the body for an hour it could be "cut off" from the body when it "died". This could then allow the other PCs restore the original host soul to life. (Although the PC would be a lot older.)

    11) Sule Lich's Host

    The Lich in the SRD gives a separate descripton of "The Lich’s Phylactery". I think it would be logical to follow a similar format and put the information about the hosts that the creature needs to possess into a separate section at the end of the template.

    By the way, I think it might help if you clarified what happens when a host gets to old or a Sule lich levels up.

    Effectively a Sule lich is a bit like a hermit crab using its human hosts as a shell to contain its life force. A hermit crab walks around looking for its new shell while still living in its old one. I think that (unless the host body was destroyed in combat) the Sule lich should be able to find a new body before the old one fell apart.

    They really should know that they were about to get a character class level before their body fell apart. They should also be able to guess when the body of their host was near to death from old age.

    If a Sule lich was able to try new bodies on for size, before their old one fell apart then it might explain why they would be so aggressive in combat. They would always be looking for a body that had a soul strong enough to allow them to "move in".

    If a Sule lich was able to voluntarily leave one body and move to a new one then it wouldn't need to risk its host dying from old age at a bad time. It could keep hunting for young adventurers to possess.

    12) Web Page Title

    You have this in your title tag:

    Code:
    <title>____________________________Suel Lich</title>


    I think that you should get rid of all those underscores as they look really ugly. The tile should be Sule Lich or Sule Lich [Template].
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:55 am  

    I used Suel Liches in a campaign that just ended. They work great.

    Why Humans? They pick Human hosts because they're Suel, the most xenophobic of Human subraces. Nothing else is good enough for them. Happy

    Maybe it's possible that one would inhabit something else in a fit of desperation, but even a hated Baklunish would be far better (and more fitting, as the Lich feeds on his traitorous soul) than a gritsucking Dwarf or a shrub-cuddling Elf. Ugh. Wink

    Seriously, one of my Suel Liches from before the Twin Cataclysms was trying to renegotiate with Wee Jas. He had seen the error of his ways, and wanted to become less evil. One of his conditions was to only occupy the bodies of unapologetic murderers who had been condemned to death by a legitimate court. I guess he could have occupied any number of other races; it wasn't intentional, but he was only Human during his appearances.
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    Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:54 pm  

    Suel Liches in my campaign are like the poster above, they prefer to inhabit the bodies of their ilk. I can't imagine them taking the body of a gnome or dwarf or elf. The magic is inherently of Suel research in my opinion.
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