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    Canonfire :: View topic - Class Specific XP Awards
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    Class Specific XP Awards
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:51 am  
    Class Specific XP Awards

    I've been using the class specific xp award system because a) my players need all the xp they can fairly get right now and b) I just think it makes sense.

    My question being: do you only award the bonus xp awarded to fighters for defeating creatures for;

    i) foes they single-handedly defeat,
    ii) foes they have contributed in killing or
    iii) any creature the party fights and defeats whether they have damaged it or not?

    Has anyone made any changes to the system as outlined in the DMG? I've started awarding priests xp for the casting of spells to solve a problem or defeat an enemy in the same way as wizards.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:50 am  

    I always liked the theory of class-based xp, but found it too daunting a task, as a DM, to continually keep track of each and every action by every PC that earned separate xp.

    In addition, it overly encouraged players to role-play. By that, I mean that they were so eager to have their PC do as many things as possible to earn extra xp that they didn't like to give up the spot-light to let another player speak. This was a problem since we had eight people in the group back then. I eventually had to give it up and award every PC that participated in an adventure an equal share of the experience. However, I did grant the group as a whole bonus xp whenever anyone did something outstanding - like slaying an opponent single-handedly, coming up with a novel and effective use a spell, etc. This encouraged them to be creative and brave without making them think that it was a competition against the other players for the spot-light. They were happy to let each other have their turns at the spot-light since they would all share in any xp earned for any individual's heroics.

    SirXaris
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:09 am  

    So far I haven't actually told them what they get bonus xp for, they don't even know what their totals are, that way I've managed to avoid the pitfalls you mentioned.

    I like your method of doing the xp though SirXaris. Anything to encourage team work is a good idea in my book!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:54 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    So far I haven't actually told them what they get bonus xp for, they don't even know what their totals are...


    -They must be the most Un-Min-Maxing, Non-Power Gamers who ever lived! Laughing

    The Story Points do give you a lot of lee-way for determining XP.
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:10 pm  

    Like Sir X and others, I use an amalgamation of XP calculations.
    Group> Monsters / Tasks/ Problems Conquered
    Individual> Single Handed, Unique Spell / Technique / Problem Solve Applications
    Other> Incharacter / InClass Roleplay, Alignment Adherence, Encounter Goals, Campaign Goals, etc

    Lastly, we also incorporate what we call Gamer Points.
    Players can earn GP for supporting our game by Subplot Riddles solved off table (I have 3300+ subplot elements for them to peruse), gaming supplies bought, actual logistics support, etc. While the GP can't "buy" them EXP, it can "purchase" a re-roll, a potion, a clue, etc, and the group has to collectively agree on how they are spent via their "stock weight". The one's that contribute more have more "weight". Wink
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:46 pm  
    Re: Class Specific XP Awards

    Wolfling wrote:

    My question being: do you only award the bonus xp awarded to fighters for defeating creatures for;

    i) foes they single-handedly defeat,
    ii) foes they have contributed in killing or
    iii) any creature the party fights and defeats whether they have damaged it or not?

    Has anyone made any changes to the system as outlined in the DMG? I've started awarding priests xp for the casting of spells to solve a problem or defeat an enemy in the same way as wizards.


    I award fighters XP both ways. This won't work for everyone, but I am a self-proclaimed, honest number cruncher when it comes to XP. For single combat, I give it ALL to the fighter. For a group effort, I give it only to the actual damage done in combat even though the 'guidelines' (that's for you, Mystic!) say otherwise (equal parts to everyone).

    I do like the class-based XP awards as outlined in the 2e DMG. In my opinion (humble or not), mages SHOULD get points for casting spells when they are used to overcome an opponent or obstacle (not cast willy-nilly, just cuz). Priests should get XP for casting spells when it furthers the ethos of their respective Power. That gets particularly tricky at times when you have to ponder (yes, Mystic, there I go again Wink ) what constitutes an 'ethos' rationale or not; you can have your player justify it, if needed (ultimately, YOU decide). Thieves should get XP for the successful, appropriate use of thieving skills (though I am NOT a fan of awarding XP for appropriate gold, etc. and don't use that ruling...errrr...guideline).

    However, as a paradox, I do not like the 2e DMG system of calculating XP for monsters, etc defeated in combat. Instead, I very MUCH favor the 1e DMG tables, and use it 'religiously.'

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:11 am  
    Re: Class Specific XP Awards

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...I award fighters XP both ways. This won't work for everyone, but I am a self-proclaimed, honest number cruncher when it comes to XP. For single combat, I give it ALL to the fighter. For a group effort, I give it only to the actual damage done in combat even though the 'guidelines' (that's for you, Mystic!) say otherwise (equal parts to everyone).

    I do like the class-based XP awards as outlined in the 2e DMG. In my opinion (humble or not), mages SHOULD get points for casting spells when they are used to overcome an opponent or obstacle (not cast willy-nilly, just cuz). Priests should get XP for casting spells when it furthers the ethos of their respective Power. That gets particularly tricky at times when you have to ponder (yes, Mystic, there I go again Wink ) what constitutes an 'ethos' rationale or not; you can have your player justify it, if needed (ultimately, YOU decide). Thieves should get XP for the successful, appropriate use of thieving skills (though I am NOT a fan of awarding XP for appropriate gold, etc. and don't use that ruling...errrr...guideline)...


    -One of the things which is good about the story points is that they help even things out. I thought that AD&D1 XP system was a bit unfair to fighters and wizards. The AD&D2 fixed it for wizards, but made it even worse for fighters, since they lost the "1 GP = 1 XP" all charcters got in AD&D1 (and OD&D IIRC). Under either set of rules, a fighter virtually had to commit genocide to get to 4th level. I once totaled the suspected kills for Von Richtoften AKA the Red Baron and discovered that the most famous fighter pilot in history probably wouldn't have made it to 4th Level based on his aerial kills. Crazy. Confused
    GreySage

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    Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:47 pm  
    Re: Class Specific XP Awards

    Lanthorn wrote:

    I award fighters XP both ways. This won't work for everyone...


    Lanthorn's Fighters go both ways. Now I know more about his campaign than I ever wanted to know. Shocked Cry Razz

    SirXaris
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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:58 am  

    Hmmm I guess I should give this whole class xp award thing a bit more thought. So far I've been adopting a primarily 2nd edition approach, but I've found that clerics seem to have a hard time gaining xp - only getting xp for either using their special ability or casting spells to further their ethos is quite difficult in some cases.

    For now I'll stick with giving fighters bonus xp for all the creatures they defeat as a party partly because I'm not organised enough to note which creatures they've actually had a hand in damaging!
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:16 pm  

    The problem for Clerics is that, like Bards, they are Jacks-of-(Almost)-All-Trades, Masters of None. They cast healing magics, sure, but they also cast other defensive magics, cast offensive magics like an MU, and fight like a Fighter. Failing to award Clerics experience points for any of those things lessens the Cleric's role in the party. Why shouldn't a Cleric, who is second only to the Fighter in melee combat ability (and his equal with buffing magics in effect), not be awarded experience in the same manner as the Fighter? Or for using his spells to defeat a monster in the manner of a Magic-User?

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:54 pm  

    I agree with my comrade, SX, on this one. Clerics and mages need to be rewarded with XP for casting spells (when and where appropriate, not just randomly). Otherwise, it will unbalance the game. What goes for fighters and thieves should apply to spell-casters, too.

    -Lanthorn
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:47 pm  

    i tried this for the first 3 or four levels. Damage taken/Done, spells cast, finding/disarming traps, opening locks etc but found it slowed down the game and became cumbersome. That and the fighters were getting all the bonux xp. Now its just monster XP and 1/10 gold to xp... and magic xp.

    The players operate as a cohesive party. might as well reward them that way. Also some of the characters may not have their player at the table. In the interest of everyone gets the same they share all xp.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:16 pm  

    You're right SirXaris and Lanthorn - perhaps a cleric should get bonus xp depending on their deity.

    Exeprience gained through combat would be suitable for a priest of a martial deity whereas xp for casting spells suitable for another like Boccob or Wee Jas.

    mcneilk - I've really been split between sharing all xp equally between players and giving individual awards based on what they do. My main concern with the egalitarian approach is that it might encourage some players to shirk their contribution, relying on more active players to carry them through.
    Paladin

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    Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:50 am  

    something that is not "rule specific" but it helps me when calculating exp, is to simply audio record the game session. It allows me to go back and review who said/ did what and award exp based on things I may have missed during table time, without slowing the pace of the game.
    You will also see an interesting sideeffect... you and your players will become more discriptive in their actions. Wink
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:42 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    mcneilk - I've really been split between sharing all xp equally between players and giving individual awards based on what they do. My main concern with the egalitarian approach is that it might encourage some players to shirk their contribution, relying on more active players to carry them through.


    See, I mentioned a similar problem in my first post in this thread. However, it seems to me that if any player is not role-playing well enough to earn an equal amount of bonus experience points to the other players, there are three possible reasons:
    1) The player is simply not as outgoing as the other players;
    2) Another player, or players, are hogging spotlight;
    3) The player simply doesn't enjoy the game very much.

    Awarding individual experience points doesn't fix any of those problems. In fact, it makes them worse. I think individual experience points should be a very limited tool that the DM uses only when a player makes a truly heroic choice for their PC or does something completely off the wall, but succeeds against all odds. And, it should be an incident that all the other players agree that that player deserves something extra; something beyond what the others are getting.

    SirXaris
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:23 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    something that is not "rule specific" but it helps me when calculating exp, is to simply audio record the game session...


    -Huh. Also gives you a permanent record if you save them.

    I type out a continuing narrative.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:26 pm  

    What about awarding for both? That way both groupwork/collaboration and individual determination, success, and motivation are awarded. This way everyone benefits (but the more proactive players get a little extra for their efforts, too) and nobody really suffers.

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:09 pm  

    I am more a giver based on roleplaying and teamwork. So there must be a balance. Individual awards for class were a hard and fast rule that did not fit my DMing style.

    I am a roleplayer at heart and min-maxing, plus power gaming are the equivalent of undead bile IMO. Some people like hack and slash everything and crunching numbers on dice rolls. That does not interest me.

    So, I guess what I'm saying it depends on your DMing style and what you want or expect out of your players and the game itself.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:59 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    I am more a giver based on roleplaying and teamwork. So there must be a balance. Individual awards for class were a hard and fast rule that did not fit my DMing style.

    I am a roleplayer at heart and min-maxing, plus power gaming are the equivalent of undead bile IMO. Some people like hack and slash everything and crunching numbers on dice rolls. That does not interest me.

    So, I guess what I'm saying it depends on your DMing style and what you want or expect out of your players and the game itself.

    Later

    Argon


    I have a feeling you and I are similar (not identical, but CLOSE) in DMing style, Argon. I don't mind creative uses of magic to enhance die rolls (to me, that's tactics and strategy!), but I would NOT consider myself a power game whatsoever. Perhaps that is why I am a 2e fan and don't have an interest to play other editions (note that I am saying this in the 2e forum and NOT another...so as to dodge an inherent edition war).

    I am also a role-player at heart who isn't interested in flat plots and the hack and slash style, either. For others, it works, which is OK. But I like a good balance of ROLE-play with some great battles mixed in as well.

    To quote somebody else we know,

    "That's Just Me." Happy

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:17 pm  

    A most luminous homunculi indeed!

    Yes Lanthorn,

    I think are styles are very similar. The only wrong way to play or rule the game is the one which no one has any fun. What I like works for me and not every one. Though I would not change my style for any other play type.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:31 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    To quote somebody else we know . . . "That's Just Me."


    What? Thought you'd sneak that one by? rolleyes

    Mwahahahahahahahahaha!
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    Paladin

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    Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:02 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    Some people like hack and slash everything and crunching numbers on dice rolls. That does not interest me.

    So, I guess what I'm saying it depends on your DMing style and what you want or expect out of your players and the game itself.

    LOL I hear yea there... Im slowly trying to convert my "gringot hairling" players from ROLL Players to ROLE players.... hehe
    But 3.0 3.5 4.....has turned them into accounting zombies.... Shocked
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:13 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    LOL I hear yea there... Im slowly trying to convert my "gringot hairling" players from ROLL Players to ROLE players.... hehe But 3.0 3.5 4.....has turned them into accounting zombies.... Shocked


    Then return to the fold of 2e and show them the Light of the Lanthorn! Happy See how they take to an older edition where there are no power stunts and cinematics to use. Maybe these younguns will learn to appreciate some old school gaming. One can only hope... Wink

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:21 pm  

    The edition does not matter. Make your role playing sessions revolve around role playing were there minds and actions can determine events. Puzzle challenges. Wrangling a rust monster they will have to leave all their metal arms and armor behind and think of a way to remove the creature without killing it.

    Later

    Argon
    Paladin

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    Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:37 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:

    Then return to the fold of 2e and show them the Light of the Lanthorn! Happy See how they take to an older edition where there are no power stunts and cinematics to use. Maybe these younguns will learn to appreciate some old school gaming. One can only hope... Wink

    argon wrote:

    The edition does not matter. Make your role playing sessions revolve around role playing were there minds and actions can determine events. Puzzle challenges.

    Agreed gents..
    My hairlings are (at differing rates) learning, while ranks of skills, feats, etc are good at helping detail out the PC, its the Role not the Roll that will make the difference.
    All their "pluses in the world" won't save them from bad decisions or bad play.
    and for any that may be peaking in....
    Or the Dark Lord...
    Mawwaahaaaaa
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:30 pm  

    Ut-oh, Now you did it !

    Lanthorn released the Dark Lord.

    Those poor players! Shocked
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:43 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    Ut-oh, Now you did it !

    Lanthorn released the Dark Lord.

    Those poor players! Shocked


    Release the Kra-....errr.. TEXAN!!! Laughing

    -Lanthorn, Emissary of Zeus
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    Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:54 pm  

    I was doing this when I started my recent campaign. However, after a while I found that everyone was getting a pretty decent chunk of bonuses, about 10%. So what I finally did was just give everyone a 10% and called it good! On top of the bonuses for prime requisites, people were basically getting 20%. Since I try to be stingy on money and magic, I started upping exp further, to make up some slack. So, now they just get a huge bonus, which amounts to about 25%, and I don't really have to figure anything out. It's a lot easier!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:56 pm  

    I give XP in a few ways (these are always where applicable and are not given every time)

    1. Based on class actions/performance for a specific adventure or episode. Fighters get a bonus if combat went exceptionally well for them; i.e. many hits, crits (yes, I use them in 1e!) and tactics, rush to the front, take a hit for the mage, etc.. Magic-users get a bonus for casting spells successfully, even moreso if it was a clever use. Priests for turning undead, casting spells, etc. Assassins for using disguise successfully and so on.

    2. Based on group performance - if the group worked together well meaning they overcame something together or in the case of an evil group, they tried to get each other killed off - so much the better. This award is minor and really up to my whim.

    3. Bonus for good roleplaying.

    4. +10% bonus for ability score...but of course!!

    I usually don't break it down for players, just give them a lump sum and say "that's for x, y and z". That way everyone gets slightly different and the situations feel a bit more custom because everyone will shine at one time or another.
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:59 pm  

    Elliva wrote:
    4. +10% bonus for ability score...but of course!!


    Now, that is one bonus to experience points I never understood. I mean, the PC with a low prime ability score that survives an encounter/adventure had to work even harder to do so than the adventurer with a high prime requisite ability score. It seems to me that the PC with a low prime requisite should be awarded a bonus to experience while the PC with a high prime requisite enjoys that as its own reward.

    SirXaris
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    Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:03 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:28 am  

    I hadn't really even bothered to think about the sense of the +10% xp bonus but actually I think I have to agree with BlueWitch and SirXaris.

    In future I'll either scrap the +10% or award it for PCs with lower stats! I might implement the changes now but my higher prime stat players would be pretty narked if they found out!!

    Now - on a tangent, albeit a closely related one, when it comes to multi-class characters, how do you assign the class secific xp?

    So far I just tally up all the class specific bonuses then split the xp equally between the two classes. I know arguments against are that xp earned in one class maybe shouldn't improve the other but I do it mainly for ease of calculation. Also I like the idea that the PC is blending their knowledge of the two (or three) classes together and thus benefits more holistically. What do the rest of you do regarding this?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:35 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Elliva wrote:
    4. +10% bonus for ability score...but of course!!


    Now, that is one bonus to experience points I never understood. I mean, the PC with a low prime ability score that survives an encounter/adventure had to work even harder to do so than the adventurer with a high prime requisite ability score...


    -I remember seeing a variant which based it on INT (ability to learn) or WIS (discipline and insight) for all classes, which makes more sense.
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    Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:47 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:38 pm  

    I believe the reason for the +10% was partly as a reward system for high statistics (yes, they are benefits unto themselves, for sure) but also to denote the extra 'ease' with which such abilities convey for a learning curve. That is the only rationale I can provide.

    As for multi-class, I used to divide straight down the middle in the past. Now I only grant XP for the appropriate class that is used. Let us take my elven bladesinger, "Lanthorn," as an example:

    Should he dispatch a foe using magic, then his mage class gets the points. If he hews the enemy with his sword, then his fighter class garners the points. The 'tricky' point comes when he uses BOTH to defeat a foe. In this case, I keep track what is used and calculate accordingly. Yeah, perhaps that is a bit more painstaking than some DMs are willing to do, but I don't mind the number crunching. I kinda like it, actually, and I think it is more accurate.

    -Lanthorn
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