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    Canonfire :: View topic - Sieges of the Flanaess
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    Sieges of the Flanaess
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:18 am  
    Sieges of the Flanaess

    Some time ago I read an interesting discussion on how extremely rare were field battles compared to sieges, for obvious reasons (less bloodshed etc.).
    Is there a list of canon (or lgg canon) important sieges in the history of GH?
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:37 am  

    You may find some references to historical sieges in the Flanaess if you research Daern. She was a famous wizard known for her defensive inventions and magic - specifically for use against siegewarfare.

    SirXaris
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    Adept Greytalker

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    From: Verbobonc

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:29 pm  

    From my Timeline project, that has been set back, thanks to Microsoft, by about a month.

    449 Harvester Rel Deven
    449 Rauxes
    453 Westkeep
    506 Jurnre
    511 Winter, Dour Pentress
    578 High Summer Eru-Tovar
    582 Redspan
    583, Reaping Chendl
    583, Rift Canyon (de facto siege)
    584 Goodmonth 17 Chathold destoyed in the Day of Dust
    584 Autumn Millennium
    585 Appolled (concluded in Flocktime)
    585 Coldeven Pontylver
    586 Low Summer Crockport
    588 Grabford
    589 Safeton (more of battle before the city walls than a siege)


    There are undoubtedly more out there in canon, but this is what I have at the moment.


    Last edited by tarelton on Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:01 pm  

    I'll add --

    Sometime between 420-455 - Critwall (by Halmadar the Cruel) Probably toward the end of this period from the description.
    447 Irongate (by Great Kingdom) Battle of a Thousand Banners
    499 Thornward (by Ket)
    578 Rookroost (by Tenh)

    It should probably be noted that the siege of Westkeep seems to more mockingly be called a siege because it lasted only long enough for the demoralized Keoish force under Tavish III to stumble out of the Hool and be slaughtered by the Sea Princes' forces. 70 minutes according to the LGG.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:08 pm  

    Isn't Scant in Onnwal considered under seige in the 590's?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:20 pm  

    I would consider Scant under de facto siege in the 590s, though not formally so. The hinterland is not under their control, though Free Onwal has not drawn up siege lines or any such formal measures.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:05 am  

    Can't believe you guys left out Elred, Chendl, and Admundfort. Elred is cool and all, being defended by mercs and adventurers, and Chendl falling = Iuzian victory over Furyondy (kind of a big deal, that), but c'mon! Admundfort? An island siege? How more awesome can a siege get than that? Enemy ships and the city bombarding each other with war machines as enemy troops land on the island, the city falling, and surviving heroes and scum alike continuing to fight a guerrilla war from bases in the the city sewers? Hands down, Admundfort would be the most awesome Greyhawk siege to roleplay. Cool
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:46 am  

    Wasn't Krestible under siege by Ket several times?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:10 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Can't believe you guys left out Elred, Chendl, and Admundfort. Elred is cool and all, being defended by mercs and adventurers, and Chendl falling = Iuzian victory over Furyondy (kind of a big deal, that), but c'mon! Admundfort? An island siege? How more awesome can a siege get than that? Enemy ships and the city bombarding each other with war machines as enemy troops land on the island, the city falling, and surviving heroes and scum alike continuing to fight a guerrilla war from bases in the the city sewers? Hands down, Admundfort would be the most awesome Greyhawk siege to roleplay. Cool


    Tarleton did list Chendl, but he noted that it took place in Reaping, so it's easy to miss.

    Yeah, I feel like a bonehead for missing Admundfort. Embarassed

    What's the source on the siege of Elredd, Slavers? I need to reread that. There's a ton of material in there.
    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:05 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    Can't believe you guys left out Admundfort. but c'mon! Admundfort? An island siege? How more awesome can a siege get than that? Enemy ships and the city bombarding each other with war machines as enemy troops land on the island, the city falling, and surviving heroes and scum alike continuing to fight a guerrilla war from bases in the the city sewers? Hands down, Admundfort would be the most awesome Greyhawk siege to roleplay. Cool

    Yeah, I feel like a bonehead for missing Admundfort. Embarassed


    I guess I'll put my "bonehead" hat on too..
    Embarassed Embarassed Shocked
    Is there anything detailing out this seige? would love it , since I have quite abit going on the veng and the Razing line.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:20 pm  

    I think there is the barest mention of it in GH Wars and the LGG. Somebody should have been beaten with socks filled with holy symbols of various gods held sacred by Shield Landers for dropping the ball though. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:05 pm  

    I think the definition of siege needs to be addressed. Are we referring to the investment of a fortified place with the intent to take it by assault or starvation, or simply any attack/assault against the same. Admunfort seems to have been overwhelmed almost in stride by Iuz, so it would not necessarily be a siege, nor would the battle of Critwall Bridge.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:22 pm  

    Courwood has never been explicitly mentioned, but according to the territory map in Wars and the cover of the Atlas of the Flanaess, orcs held the Lortmils up to Celene Pass in 584-585CY. This cut the County of Ulek in half and left Courwood in enemy territory for some time.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:34 pm  

    Certainly there is a story to tell for Admundfort, though it is not of an epic struggle. More of an epic tragedy, as its doom was inevitable, and the defenders' action were holding actions, just to allow more people to escape. It just isn't going to be a "The siege lasted for over a year, each side wearing the other down, but the defenders had no reinforcements..." type of story, but one of heroism, catastrophe, and utter defeat. Also, Turin Deathstalker fought in the Shield Lands, fell back to Admundfort, and then fell back from there to Greyhawk. It is not like he was alone either, and somebody had to slow down the attackers so that more people could escape. So, there is a story there. Wink

    Perhaps I have a different perspective on this, seeing as we gamed fighting in the the Shield Lands, the retreat to Critwall, crossing to Admundfort on ships being attacked by Iuzian vessels in the Nyr Dyv, the fall of Admundfort, and narrowly escaping from the island to Greyhawk (but no, our PCs weren't hangin' with Turin or anything). Lots of dead NPCs known to the PCs were left along the way. It was pure carnage, meaning it is was good story telling, and yes, there is a good story to tell when the good guys lose too. Our DM did a good job of things. Cool

    One more slightly notable siege: Vecna vs. Fleeth. Fleeth never stood a chance, so is there no story here as well? Wink Yes, I keed, I keed. Laughing
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:24 am  

    Ceb,

    I really like the way you handled the fall of Admunfort... tragedy adds a lot to a campaign, and is often overlooked as a tool to motivate characters.

    I am not discounting the value of Admunfort as an adventure location, just that I am not sure it qualifies as a siege. A siege requires at least a blockade to be set up preparatory to other actions, but my interpretation of the fall of both Admunfort, and Nevond Neven were that they fell by direct assault and were not technically sieges, but rather city-fights. I am basically bringing my work home I think...
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:46 pm  

    Well, yes, both were short sieges. Admundfort was basically abandoned as an untenable defensive location due to how few forces of good were left compared to the overwhelming size of the opposition. Still, they would hold the city as long as they could so that as many people could board ships to take them away to safety, just as was done at Critwall Bridge. In any event, the siege wouldn't have lasted more than a week at most, as once the forces of evil brought across enough troops to the island, they could simply assault the walls en masse. In our game, there was some treachery within the walls that dropped that week to a few days, and so the level of carnage and tragedy was maintained all the way to the end. Cool Oh, and it wasn't me who handled it, it was my DM who handled it that way. He played it out as it would go down. It was a defining series of game sessions for his campaign.

    Anyways, the Shield Landers didn't just locks the gates, not man the walls, and make a run for the docks. They bled the forces of evil as they could all along the path of their retreat, including at Admundfort, but their cause was a hopeless one and they knew it. If I were to write an article on it, it would not be entitled "The Siege of Admundfort", but "The Fall of Admundfort" or "The Fall of the Shield Lands".

    We also have the Siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Shocked That one didn't take too long either, but that's sort of because of who was involved. Still, heavy fire power is needed to take on the powerful servants of demon lords and demi-gods, let alone the demon lord and demi-god themselves. Many did die just prior to this at the Battle of Emridy Meadows (Serten of the Circle of Eight being among them), but other powerful figures were present at the siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil too. I wonder if EGG and company gamed out Emridy Meadows and the siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would be pretty fun to do.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:42 am  

    Quote:
    I wonder if EGG and company gamed out Emridy Meadows and the siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would be pretty fun to do.


    They did in 2006 (sort of; this was the battle for the Moathouse rather than the Temple itself).
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:41 am  

    Just imagine the role that magic plays during a siege, both in defense and offense! Magic can completely alter traditional methods of fortifying a position as well as the assault needed to take one down. Just pondering all the tactical implications for both divine and arcane-based magic makes the mind swim with...possibilities! Shocked

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:20 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Just imagine the role that magic plays during a siege, both in defense and offense! Magic can completely alter traditional methods of fortifying a position as well as the assault needed to take one down. Just pondering all the tactical implications for both divine and arcane-based magic makes the mind swim with...possibilities! Shocked

    -Lanthorn


    Yes, magic can effect the efforts of sieges. However, I played around with a rule that lead could not be affected by magic. The natural impurities in lead dissipate the source of a spells power. So lacing a forts walls with lead aids it in combating the effects of magical sieges. However a balista bolt that is enchanted deals normal balista bolt damage it just negates the enchantment placed on the bolt when it strikes the fortification. However, lead poisoning is a side effect that must be included when dealing with this rule. Otherwise, PC's would be carrying around lead laced weapons and armor.

    Later

    Argon
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    Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:03 pm  

    Quote:
    Just imagine the role that magic plays during a siege, both in defense and offense! Magic can completely alter traditional methods of fortifying a position as well as the assault needed to take one down. Just pondering all the tactical implications for both divine and arcane-based magic makes the mind swim with...possibilities!

    -Lanthorn


    I think we had a debate along these lines a while back, but is started off along the lines of using gunpowder. Of course, if the besieger is using lightning bolts to batter the gates, the besieged might be using some call lightning on that collection of tents the besiegers are living in...
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:33 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    I wonder if EGG and company gamed out Emridy Meadows and the siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would be pretty fun to do.


    They did in 2006 (sort of; this was the battle for the Moathouse rather than the Temple itself).

    Yep. Heard about that from grodog around that time. I have the pics of that saved somewhere too. They did the sort of thing that I like to do in my campaign, but, even though I can, I have never purpose built something to match the terrain/encounter perfectly as they did. There are a few builders in our gaming group, so perhaps we will do something like that. I still haven't given up on doing the Siege of Chendl. Different groups of characters in my campaign exist in different timelines, so there is still a chance that somebody's characters will get to do it.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:31 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    I wonder if EGG and company gamed out Emridy Meadows and the siege of the Temple of Elemental Evil. That would be pretty fun to do.


    They did in 2006 (sort of; this was the battle for the Moathouse rather than the Temple itself).

    Yep. Heard about that from grodog around that time. I have the pics of that saved somewhere too...


    They bring that model of the Moathouse to GaryCon every year and play a large miniatures battle with it. It is an incredibly awesome display. Happy

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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:48 am  

    according to a third edition download about the city of verbobonc had a long siege of 412CY that destroyed the church of Tritheron.

    I didn't see it in the Oerth journal writeup on Verbobonc but the oerth one says the knights of Tritheron were instrumental in the defense of the city against a keoish army. That army "besieged" the city. That date was 360CY.
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