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    Canonfire :: View topic - Count Lorgan of Urnst
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    Count Lorgan of Urnst
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 15, 2013 8:18 am  
    Count Lorgan of Urnst

    Reading the Folio + the 83 box I read that Count Lorgan (16th level fighter) was the count of Urnst in 576 CY. Was he the father of Belissica? When did she became Countess?
    GreySage

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    Wed May 15, 2013 5:50 pm  

    That seems to be an error. According to both the Guide (page 40) and the 1980 Greyhawk Folio (page 18) Belissica was Countess of Urnst in 576 CY.

    Probably the best way to reconcile the discrepancy is to assume that Lorgan died in 576, with Belissica becoming ruler the same year. The house of Gellor seems to have ruled the county for some time, so it's probably safe to say that Lorgan was a parent or other older relative.


    Last edited by rasgon on Wed May 15, 2013 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed May 15, 2013 6:31 pm  

    Interesting. The Guide and Folio both say Belissica, but the Glossography p17 says Lorgan. Looks like we have a new NPC to rationalize! Maybe the Countess was indisposed for a few months and Lorgan filled in as regent.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu May 16, 2013 1:13 am  

    Also, the Folio says Belissica, but it also referes to an unnamed F16, so unless Belissica was a 16th level fighter (!) the discrepancy was present in the Folio, too.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu May 16, 2013 4:44 am  

    You're right. Belissica is a CG wizard in later sources (13th in FtA and 14th in LGG). She must have been quite young in 576CY with all the talk of marriage. Either the court was in transition and Lorgan was the out-going Count or Lorgan was a temporary regent.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri May 17, 2013 6:04 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    Also, the Folio says Belissica, but it also referes to an unnamed F16, so unless Belissica was a 16th level fighter (!) the discrepancy was present in the Folio, too.

    Specifically, the folio states:
    Quote:
    URNST, COUNTY OF

    Her Noble Brilliancy, the Countess of Urnst (Fighter, 16th level)

    ... The land to the great bend of the Artonsamay, south to the Franz, to the shores of Nyr Dyv is ruled by the House of Gellor, whose current representative is the Countess Belissica....

    Seems pretty clear to me that Gygax intended Countess Belissica to be a 16th-level fighter, and the later reference to Lorgan was an editorial error (since Belissica is still named in the Gazetteer). If there's a need to reconcile the two, could she be Countess Belissica Lorgan of House Gellor? (Consider King Kimbertos Skotti of House Lizhal.)
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri May 17, 2013 7:15 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:

    Seems pretty clear to me that Gygax intended Countess Belissica to be a 16th-level fighter, and the later reference to Lorgan was an editorial error (since Belissica is still named in the Gazetteer). If there's a need to reconcile the two, could she be Countess Belissica Lorgan of House Gellor? (Consider King Kimbertos Skotti of House Lizhal.)

    I would go with this in a strict Gygax campaign, but since multiple later sources made Belissica a wizard, we need another explanation.

    Even without the typo and later changes, Belissica as a 16th level fighter doesn't make much sense. 16th level would make her one of the highest level NPCs in the Flanaess while still a young, eligible bride for Karll's eldest son. Extrapolating from Greyhawk Adventures and the LGG, Karll is approximately 46 in 576CY, so his son can't be too old.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 18, 2013 7:28 am  

    vestcoat wrote:
    I would go with this in a strict Gygax campaign, but since multiple later sources made Belissica a wizard, we need another explanation.

    Even without the typo and later changes, Belissica as a 16th level fighter doesn't make much sense. 16th level would make her one of the highest level NPCs in the Flanaess while still a young, eligible bride for Karll's eldest son. Extrapolating from Greyhawk Adventures and the LGG, Karll is approximately 46 in 576CY, so his son can't be too old.

    Meh... primacy of canon and all. Belissica is a 16th-level fighter. I think that was clearly the creator's intent and not a mere typo. We need to reconcile later sources with that information, not the other way around.

    Since the starting age for an AD&D human fighter was 16–19, Belissica could reasonably be in her early 30s c. 576 CY—still young enough to marry and bear children for Karll's son. Perhaps Karll's son is in his mid-20s, or perhaps Karll was meant to be a little older than later material suggests. I'd say letting Belissica be a few years older than Karll's son is the easier solution; think a slightly younger Cersei Lannister being married off to Loras Tyrell.

    Belissica's later wizard levels are easily justified if one uses AD&D dual-classing rules. She reached 16th level as a fighter through her 20s and early 30s, then took up the study of magic when her advancing age and the responsibilities of her office precluded frivolous dragon-hunting. Between 576 & 585 CY, she achieved 13th level as a wizard—impressive, to be sure, but hardly game-breaking. (Of course, that would make her a 29th-level character in 3E, but converting characters for later editions isn't my problem. Razz )
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