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    Canonfire :: View topic - Rest Between Spell Memorising
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Rest Between Spell Memorising
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    From: British Isles

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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:19 am  
    Rest Between Spell Memorising

    Is there a rule anywhere that states spellcasters cannot memorise spells more than once within a certain time period? I can't find anything but I might just be looking in the wrong place!
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:21 am  

    All spell-casters require periods of rest before they can rememorize/pray for new spells. The length of time required is directly related to the level of spell needed. Basically, the higher level spells are considerably more draining on the mind and body than lower level spells, and thus, more rest is needed before they can be regained through prayer or study.

    1e DMG (if you have it...shouldn't everyone?! Wink ) has a chart, on page 40, delineating the amount of time required:

    SPELL LEVEL Rest Time
    1-2: 4 hours
    3-4: 6 hours
    5-6: 8 hours
    7-8: 10 hours
    9: 12 hours

    The time needed is NOT additive, but the overall required. For instance, if you cast 2 2nd and 3 3rd lvl spells, the time needed to restore one's strength before prayer/study would be 6 hours.

    I've allowed characters who fail to meet the minimum for higher level spells the chance to study/pray for those spells they have met the requirement. For instance, if one rests for 4 hrs, they have enough rest to start praying or studying for 1st and 2nd lvl spells, but nothing more. At a minimum of 6 hrs, 1st through 4th can be obtained, but nothing over that, etc...

    Furthermore, 15 minutes/spell level are needed to pray or study to re-acquire spells. 2e DMG reduced this time to 10 minutes per level...

    This is another balancing system keeping spell-casters in check, especially with respect to those high-level spells.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:38 am  

    Thanks Lanthorn but you misunderstood my query.

    What I want to know is how many times a spellcaster can rest and learn spells within say a 24 hour period.

    For example - could a priest rest for 4hours, pray for his spells, cast them all then immediately rest for another 4 hours.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:24 am  

    Embarassed

    I allow them to do so, if time and the situation permit.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:18 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    For example - could a priest rest for 4hours, pray for his spells, cast them all then immediately rest for another 4 hours.


    I believe that is acceptable in 2e.

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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Yeomanry

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    Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:26 pm  

    Yes Wolfling. I've let players hole up in a dungeon -spike the door closed is often used - to regain healing spells and bandage their wounds. It also tends to give the denizens of said dungeon time to prepare a beat-down for them when they come out though, but I've certainly let the players do it. The time of day isn't relevant to the prayers, as long as time is spent resting and praying.

    -GreyMaus
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:23 am  

    Thanks.

    I'd assumed they could rest as much as they like but just wanted to check.

    You make a good point GreyMaus - all that resting gives plenty of time for the enemy to prepare and for random encounters to rear their ugly heads!
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:44 am  

    Although it seems we all (?) allow such rest and recuperation, keep in mind that it is not as simple as one would think.

    Firstly, is there enough food and water to refresh the characters between bouts of activity?

    Do they get adequate rest? Sleeping on a cavern floor, dank and wet, cool and eerie, with foul smells permeating the stagnant air, creepy crawlies scuttling about...I doubt your PCs are going to get much sleep in that situation.

    Then there's the focus needed to pray or study. I typically have my player roll to see how much the character can concentrate in one bout. If you've cast your full complement of 23 spells, let's say, I doubt you can restore all of them in one fell swoop of absolute focus. How many of us have crammed for a test the night before the big exam? For how long do you think a person can devote FULLY to perusing notes, memorizing algorithms and formulae, or maintain concentration on a single mental task without fatigue?

    I've run into many DMing situations you speak of, and that is why I am rather meticulous about all these factors. The Wilderness Survival Guide is my 'Bible' (or insert your particular Divine book) for keeping track of food, water, and decent rest. Whether dungeon delving or slogging through the great outdoors, these all become crucial elements.

    Somewhat recently in my "Lost Caverns" game, the PCs had to shore up and hide in that deadly subterranean maze to 'recharge' their proverbial batteries. They were in a deadly cat-and-mouse game against a rival faction serving Iuz. After countless back-and-forth battles, the priests and mages of the party needed MUCH time and rest to pray and study. It was NOT that easy, as my player found out, and seldom did they get all the necessary time they truly needed to FULLY restore themselves. It was a real war of attrition and made for some great role-play as well as strategy and the stuff of heroes.

    just some things to consider,

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
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    Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:31 am  

    I think Lanthorn has a really good point about the rest period. I agree in allowing them as many rest sessions as they can pack into 24 hrs as long as the required rest is met. As Lanthorn stated, it is getting the proper rest that is the problem.

    Granted, these would be professional adventurers but it would be hard to concentrate for the old Calc2 or Physics final if the instructor were banging on your dorm (dungeon) door and happen to be a 9 1/2 foot tall troll that wanted in to rip you limb for limb.

    In similar fashion, I allow the rest periods but you may not come out of it completely refreshed and recharged.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:03 am  

    It's definitely a valid point about the quality of rest whilst adventuring. Previously I was keeping a record of food and water supplies but the party had the luck to chance upon a mirror of mental prowess and now all the fun (for me) of roughing it in the field has been diminished with handy portals being opened to allow them to return to base to rest. Fear not though - I'm working on a way to make it difficult for them! Evil Grin
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: Dantredun, MN

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    Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:36 pm  

    There's a 2e rule somewhere that says characters need to be awake for at least 8 hours before they can rest again. Unfortunately, I can't locate the source right now. I'll keep looking.

    Sage Advice #232 wrote something similar:
    "As long as the character gets a good night's sleep (about eight hours), he can expect to start memorizing new spells whenever he wakes up. Itís pretty difficult for anyone to sleep for a full eight hours unless heís been awake and active for the preceding 10 to 14 hours, but exceptions do occur." (my italics)
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:39 pm  

    Vestcoat, I will keep my eyes peeled for the 'rule' you are referencing. Offhand I don't recall one...

    I have often conjectured if 'rest' means sleep or basic general inactivity (like my 1st period high school students without coffee! Laughing ), or either one.

    -Lanthorn
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    From: The Pomarj

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    Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:43 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:07 am  

    I agree with you all about quality of sleep in a wretched damp dungeon. My only concern would be the effect being too realistic and harsh would have on continuity of play. In the Temple of Elemental Evil I'm currently running there is a random encounter chance every 10 minutues. That's a lot of rolls during an 8 hour rest period! If the spellcasters had to rest for even longer on account of poor quality of rest it would be even more difficult.

    Maybe that realism is a good thing though, I'll have to have a think how harsh I want to be on them!

    Lanthorn makes a good point about what rest actually means. In the 1st edition DMG it says "complete rest (usually sleep)". So that implies it doesn't have to be sleep I suppose. 2nd ed seems to require actual sleep.

    I've just spotted a reference on p.81 of the 2nd ed PHB:
    "The number of spells a wizard can memorize is given by his level; he can memorize the same spell more than once, but each memorization counts as one spell towards his daily memorization limit."

    So that would imply that the table showing wizard spells per day is intended to represent a daily allotment. It would make sense that the same goes for priests - afterall you don't want to go pestering your divine superiors too often!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Yeomanry

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    Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:45 pm  

    Not trying to beat a dead horse here but rest in a dungeon is quite possible. The mental and physical exertions of combat take a heavy toll on a person. The number of hours you've been awake are worth factoring into your fatigue, but so are the stresses you've endured for those hours. Having marched more than my share of miles in government issued boots I can attest to this fact (though i've never been in a troll infested dungeon!hehe). Knowing a friend has got your back so you can catch a few z's is important. Granted I'm no spell-caster, but i've slept well enough in all kinds of crap to wake up feeling rested, although it does take a little practice (try sleeping on running boards sometime haha it can be done).
    In additon most folks in history have slept on the ground or floor so an old catacombs for instance wouldn't be too much different from any other place.
    As a dm i rarely allow a full recharge of spells, but a few hours counting sheep and praying for (or memorizing) a few spells can always be attempted - especially because the party is gonna need it when they see what suprises the monsters cooked up for them in the meantime!

    -GreyMaus
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    Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:14 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    In the Temple of Elemental Evil I'm currently running there is a random encounter chance every 10 minutues. That's a lot of rolls during an 8 hour rest period!

    B1 and some other old modules have two different rates for wandering monster checks in dungeons. One is a frequent check for when the characters are exploring and talking, the other is usually a total of 3 checks for eight hours sleep if they hole up somewhere.

    Quote:
    So that would imply that the table showing wizard spells per day is intended to represent a daily allotment. It would make sense that the same goes for priests - afterall you don't want to go pestering your divine superiors too often!

    I just rule: 8hrs awake + 8hrs rest (no more than 1 interruption) = new spells. This cuts the players a little slack (16 vs. 24 hrs) without unbalancing the game with a stock of Cure Light Wounds every 4hrs.

    GreyMaus wrote:
    Not trying to beat a dead horse here but rest in a dungeon is quite possible. The mental and physical exertions of combat take a heavy toll on a person. The number of hours you've been awake are worth factoring into your fatigue, but so are the stresses you've endured for those hours. Having marched more than my share of miles in government issued boots I can attest to this fact (though i've never been in a troll infested dungeon!hehe). Knowing a friend has got your back so you can catch a few z's is important. Granted I'm no spell-caster, but i've slept well enough in all kinds of crap to wake up feeling rested, although it does take a little practice (try sleeping on running boards sometime haha it can be done).
    In additon most folks in history have slept on the ground or floor so an old catacombs for instance wouldn't be too much different from any other place.

    +1. I went on a no-budget motorcycle trip in my twenties and within two days I was comfortably sleeping on gravel, in freezing-cold parking lots, and at abandoned gas stations.


    Last edited by vestcoat on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Yeomanry

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    Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:47 pm  

    Thats the spirit Vestcoat! Honestly I don't know that I could do it now, but a small recharge should clearly be allowed for the young and adventurous types that frequent the dungeons of Greyhawk. A tough DM could add a column to the "effects of aging" table or something like :
    "%chance of resting w/o a matress" haha eg.
    middle age=50% old age=25% venerable=5%

    -GreyMaus
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:40 am  

    GreyMaus wrote:
    A tough DM could add a column to the "effects of aging" table or something like :
    "%chance of resting w/o a matress" haha eg.
    middle age=50% old age=25% venerable=5%

    LOL. Sounds like a Lenard Lakofka topic for Gygax Magazine!
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