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    Canonfire :: View topic - Demogorgon Rocks!
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    Demogorgon Rocks!
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:26 pm  
    Demogorgon Rocks!

    I was less than pleased with the Istivin series of articles that ran in the Dungeon recently, finding them dull, plodding and a bit "put up."

    Well, I finally got a copy of Dungeon 120. The Lost Temple of Demogorgon is much more what Istivin should have been in terms of background, IMO, and this when Demogorgon was not even trying to provide significant background!

    Demogorgon's "savage time" didn't feebly prop itself up with stale canon and invocations of the same as per Istivin.

    Demogorgon snarled and made canon. Happy Istivin wimpered and sucked up to canon. Too clever by half. Sad It is not quantity of words but the use they are put to. Istivin poured ink on the page. Demogorgon made the words it used count. Fingerpainting vs calligraphy.

    Sean Reynolds' Demogorgon rocks! Happy "Make Mine Marvel!" Happy
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    GVD
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    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
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    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:28 pm  
    It Is Good

    Definitely, Lost Temple of Demogorgon is a great adventure. I like that Holian's Death Knights of Greyhawk articles were put to good use. I am underwhelmed by Demogorgon as a Greyhawk bad guy, but I like the premise of Lord Khayven and the application of his "plight" in Lost Temple of Demogorgon.

    As a side note, this adventure is discussed at WotC's Greyhawk board, of course. Check it out HERE. Or, cut and paste: ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=372790 ).
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    Don (Greyson)
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    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
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    From: New York City

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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:17 pm  

    I agree wholeheartedly about the Istivin adventures. An idea that had good potential, but I thought it was weak to the point of being unusable. The Demogorgon adventure, on the other hand, is a home run. I question the placement of the adventure, and in my campaign will be running it further southwest, probably whenever the PCs get around to exploring the Amedio Jungle, but that's a minor quibble, obviously easy to rectify. Indeed, the sparse backstory, jumping rather quickly into the adventure itself, was a welcome sight. Huzzah to Sean Reynolds for a job well done.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Cooke City, MT, USA

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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:23 pm  
    Re: Demogorgon Rocks!

    GVDammerung wrote:

    Sean Reynolds' Demogorgon rocks! Happy "Make Mine Marvel!" Happy


    You had my interest up till that last sentence. I've been so utterly and completely unimpressed with SKR's Greyhawk lore in the past that it would take a true miracle to get me to consider using his material now.

    Specifically, what is it about this Demogorgon thing that makes it "rock"?
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    What would Raxivort do?<br />
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:25 pm  

    btgrover wrote:
    I I question the placement of the adventure, and in my campaign will be running it further southwest, probably whenever the PCs get around to exploring the Amedio Jungle,


    Well, the good news is that Erik's vague teasers about the upcoming new adventure path series in dungeon should involve some activity with a cult of Kyuss in the amedio.
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    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:45 pm  

    I just got 120 and I like what I see overall. Demogorgon hasn't always been my favorite demon prince, but hurrah, next issue hints that it will contain Iggwilv and Graz'zt. What a vile couple they make!
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:57 pm  
    Cool

    I have to say, I liked this adventure. Demogorgon and the Death Knights go way back, and have always been tied togeather in my mind. The only problem I had was the inclusion of Apes and Baboons in the Kingdom of Ahlissa.

    But I will take all the GH I can get. Keep it coming. I liked Istvin too, and have no complaints. Could it have been better, possibly, but I dont know that I could make it so.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:23 am  
    Re: Demogorgon Rocks!

    chatdemon wrote:
    Specifically, what is it about this Demogorgon thing that makes it "rock"?


    IMO, the biggest plus is that, for the first time in too many years playing this game, I have a sense of who Demogorgon is in more than just a passing way. There is an emphasis on "savagery" throughout the adventure that gives you a sense that Demogorgon is significantly different from Grazzt's smoothly charming evil, Orcus' gutbusting, bone crunching evil etc. Demogorgon is demonstrably feral and savage, almost animalistic, when compared to other demonlords. He is primal in his evil in a way that has not been previously exploited or explored. In this way, the use of apes in the module both fits with Demogorgon's motif (two baboon or mandril heads) and with the idea of an unregenerate savagery.

    The GH background also develops this "more primative time" feeling.

    At the same time, the death knight tie-in works in the way of making a villain the hero kind of twist, but also reveals Demogorgon's attempts to "update" himself to something more civilized and capable of appealing to a more civilized world. Alternatively, if you go with the schizo Demogorgon theory, the death knight thing also works in that vein.

    I like the idea of a "savage land" Greyhawk having once existed and Demogorgon as a more primally savage type of demonlord.

    Demogorgon comes across as different from his fellows and different in a cool way, IMO.
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    GVD
    Sage of Canonfire

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    Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:13 pm  

    Yes, this is a thread I've been developing with Demogorgon over the last few years, beginning with the original Death Knights piece in Dragon. Too many demon lords have been neglected in favor of the old stand-bys, such as Lolth, Grazzt, and Orcus. I'd like to think they are not the only ones with designs on Oerth and I have plans to expand on others. Greyhawk sometimes suffers a dearth of new enemies and faces.

    Demogorgon is unique. He is the demon lord of the "savage races" and is very much associated with the "savage time" before the migrations.

    He is "The Sibilant Beast", as the Flan used to call him. And with all that falls under his portfolio, I thought he was the perfect foil for the re-imagined Isle of Dread in Dungeon (jungles, dinosaurs, etc.) as the god-thing of the Kopru. I envision his cult more widespread in the south and east, in the Azure Sea and Densac Gulf (amedio and hepmonaland included.) It is still strong in the latter, but the Aerdi largely eradicated the last unburied vestiges of it following their migration to the Flanmi basin. It is therefore natural to understand his desire for vengeance on the Great Kingdom, a desire to see it devolve into savagery.

    His association with the Death Knights is a nod to the old Fiend Folio, but can also be seen as an attempt to re-inject himself into modern times, using modern means. Yes, Nerull, Orcus, and Hextor might have been more de rigueur, or natural choices if you will, but things are not always quite so pat. And I would not assume it was a solo act. In fact I can guarantee you it was not. Nerull almost certainly played a role, though Hextor did not (as some of the death knights were former followers of his). The nature of first death knights involves both a curse and enslavement, they are complex and individually motivated beings.

    I was able to edit some of the background info for Sean's article to tie it in better with the material. Hopefully, this kind of article gives DMs some new avenues and new enemies for their campaigns.

    -Gary
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    Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:55 pm  

    Several years ago, when discussing one of his last posts to the old AOL folders, Nellisir and I shared ideas about the Invisible War--a millennial battle between the demon lords and princes that has played across Oerik.

    This idea incorporates many of the old online discussions by GH fans of the demon princes and is also influenced by the Realms of Chaos of the Warhammer game system/setting. Demogorgon features large in this struggle--having once held dominion over the Amedio Jungle and other southern parts of the Flanaess. He has consistently defeated Dagon, once a major rival in the ages before the Great Migrations--in the time when a nation of the vile Ur-Flan became the kuo-toa.

    As some of you know, I enjoy braiding together the many Alternate Oerths that folks have shared online. Kudos to everyone who helped publish Sean's latest contribution to Greyhawk. While I disliked significant parts of The Scarlet Brotherhood, I never understood the large flame-war that drove Sean from GreyTalk (in early 2000? 2001?). While I wouldn't want him in control, I'm happy that he has again started contributing--and pleased that folks are able to edit his work.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:00 pm  

    PSmedger wrote:
    Too many demon lords have been neglected in favor of the old stand-bys, such as Lolth, Grazzt, and Orcus. I'd like to think they are not the only ones with designs on Oerth and I have plans to expand on others. Greyhawk sometimes suffers a dearth of new enemies and faces. . . .

    Yes, Nerull, Orcus, and Hextor might have been more de rigueur, or natural choices if you will, but things are not always quite so pat. And I would not assume it was a solo act. In fact I can guarantee you it was not. Nerull almost certainly played a role, though Hextor did not (as some of the death knights were former followers of his). The nature of first death knights involves both a curse and enslavement, they are complex and individually motivated beings.

    -Gary


    I agree entirely with this approach, particularly not chalking things up to "The Usual Suspects."

    If I've a qualm, it would be including any godly involvement at all. Demogorgon does not need the help, IMO.

    I very much like the development of Demogorgon, and seeing how matters are developing, will have to give Isle of Dread another look, as I felt Demogorgon was "tacked on" at the end, upon a first reading. I may need to rethink.

    Excellent work. Smile
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    GVD
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    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
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    From: Blue, The Pomarj (Lehigh Valley, PA)

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    Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:10 pm  
    Demogorgon and Pazuzu in Dungeon 120

    I liked the fact that in the cover art of issue 120 they returned Demogorgon's depiction to that of a twin-mandril-headed demon, instead of the hyena-esque version in BOVD... the new cover harkens back to his 1E MM illustration... totally cool!!!!

    Also, the Pazuzu worshipping kenku module in 120 isn't bad either.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:56 am  

    It's a bit offtopic because the source is the OD&D Immortal Boxed set, but have anyone see Demogorgon's stats as a High Eternal Immortal of
    Entropy? Not to mention the best pic of him I ever see? THAT rocks Cool
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