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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk map - pre-migration
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    Greyhawk map - pre-migration
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:06 am  
    Greyhawk map - pre-migration

    Did anyone tried to map what the Flanaess could have looked before the migration (i.e. mapped Vecna's empire, realm of Queen Ehlissa, Olve realms...)

    if not could all of your share your tought about where ancient kingdom might be situated then I'll try to represent it.

    Any info as where, date of creation and date of end would be appreciate as well.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:00 am  

    Migration-era rather than pre-migration, but hopefully useful nonetheless. Not finished stuff, just work-in-progress. Someday, maybe....

    Primary sources: Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Iuz the Evil, the Marklands.

    Note the forests aren't redrawn. Vecna's empire should [sigh] probably extend to the Nyr Dyv...that seems to be how the trend is. Gary Holian places Tdon somewhere in the Utter West and the Oeridian prehistory, but since there's an anecdotal reference to it in Tenh in Iuz the Evil, I've placed it there.

    Just names.
    http://home.comcast.net/~nellisir/ghmigration1.JPG

    Yellow: Oeridian.
    Green: Suel
    Dark blue: Flan
    Light Blue: Elves.
    Ditto on the forests. Not redrawn.
    http://home.comcast.net/~nellisir/ghmigration.JPG

    I've got more notes on another (easter flanaess only) map, but my scanner isn't working:
    - Adrihal - a small flan kingdom between Relmor Bay and the Harp River.
    - Ideen - location as current.
    - Megia - location as current Medegia.
    - Sunndi - location as current.
    - Teesar - Evil flan kingdom, near current Bellport.
    - Yrinloru - location as current Rinloru.

    On a 4th map, which I believe was my "taking notes" map, I've got the following (these may be from a variety of time periods):
    - ancient dwarven stronghold near Big Seal Bay.
    - Garal Entedal (?) - orcish stronghold in Griffs.
    - "Forest People" in Hraak Forest
    - Uritag in Burneal Forest (still there)
    - "Garyik" in Land of Black Ice.
    - Skrellingshald in place of Veralos (alternate nomenclature or my confusion?)
    - Kingdom of the Iron Hills in the Iron Hills.
    - Glorioles dwarves
    - Abbor-Alz dwarves
    - Yorodhi in current Tusmit
    - Satrapy of Ghayar in current Zeif.
    - Sulm in current Bright Desert (destroyed long before migration period); not contemporary with Ahlissa or most other mentioned kingdoms).

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:30 am  

    Exactly what I was looking for Happy

    Quote:
    Not finished stuff, just work-in-progress. Someday, maybe....


    If you wish, I might help...

    Also, any info on dwarven kingdom?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:38 pm  

    Mordo wrote:
    If you wish, I might help...


    Do whatever you like -- that's about the extent of my notes. I've got my hands more than full elsewhere right now.

    Quote:
    Also, any info on dwarven kingdom?

    Nope. I think the Kingdom of the Iron Hills is just my conjecture, and the Gloriales kingdom is mentioned several times in the various GH setting books (in the Gloriales entry, usually).

    I usually work by figuring out what's already recorded in canon, then what's hypothesized in noncanon articles, then changing what I need to to match what I envision and filling in the blanks that are left. In this case, I only got to step one.

    Have fun with it
    Nell.
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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:28 pm  

    For my 175 CY game we reverse-engineered deforestation and what-not based on population growth along the migration paths. I'll see about scanning the map at work tomorrow....
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    Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:22 am  

    Happy Your maps are really interesting, Nell.
    I will think if I use the ideas you detailed there in my Kul'gobsula campaign.

    BTW, what's that Shadowend campaign about? - Sounds interesting...

    Wink
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    Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:59 pm  

    Ivid wrote:
    Happy Your maps are really interesting, Nell.


    Thanks. I used to do alot of maps -- I was bored alot in high school & my father, a builder, had lots of 24" x 36" blueprints that had errors, or changes, or something...regardless, they were all blank on one side. I'm not an artist, but some of them were nice, and it was fun to do. I just never seem to get the time anymore...

    Quote:
    BTW, what's that Shadowend campaign about? - Sounds interesting...


    House campaign setting. More or less your standard pseudo-medieval high fantasy setting. I've run all but one of my campaigns there (and the one was set in Faerie, not so far away...).

    For the last year or so I've been working on Winterfall, a high-fantasy norse/slavic/celtic-inspired setting with shades of just about everything you can imagine. I'm stealing the mechanics of Void from Rokugan to create Wryd and Glamour, bits & pieces from Midnight & Dawnforge, and additional stuff from Blue Rose, The Black Company, Unearthed Arcana, some of the Quintessential books, and Andy Collins' website.

    I'm a really big fan of the Open Gaming License. Wink

    Winterfall is related to Shadowend (Winterfall is Scandinavia & Russia to Shadowend's England/France/Netherlands), but I need to Sit Down and FINISH! I'm caught in a dilemma between the rules as I think they ought to be written, and as they are written. It wouldn't be an issue except I keep thinking of more ways to tie things together for a (IMO) better game, but I'm not sure I want to write the Nellisir Edition of D&D.

    See, now you've gotten me WAY off topic. Wink
    If you're really curious, email me and I can send you the Shadowend Player's Handbook/Gazetteer I wrote awhile ago.

    Nell.
    nellisir at comcast dot net
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    Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:50 am  

    Mail sent - I am a kind of d20 addict too, running a campaign in Erde by TLG and preparing another one in the Wilderlands!
    (The later seems to have become kind of my RPG heaven...)

    BTW, do you know about Chris Perkin's World of Gaille? It's a free pdf setting with some kind of old - school flavour, but interesting nevertheless...
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    Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:46 am  

    Reply sent. Be warned, the attachments are not particularly, ah, small.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:28 am  

    Thank you, Nell!

    *Will take some days until I find the time to download/read them, but then I'll send you my review (and some kind of package...) Happy

    See you,

    R
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    Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:52 am  
    Notes

    Just a couple of things...

    Nell, on your map showing the boundries of various groups, you show Vecnas realm terminating around Shiboleth. I think that his realm extend thoroughly over the Rushmoors, though I cannot find the text at the moment. I think though, that this is where the Spidered Throne supposedly rests. Just a thought.

    Grodog,

    You plotted out some deforestation? Working on Gran March (as an example) even with the dramatically increased populations of the LGG, there is only about 1/3 the people in the Flaness as there was in the least populated of Medieval regions (in this case the British Isles).

    My thoughts on this was that even Gran March with a strong army and martial tradition, is going to have a very difficult time holding back huminoids of any type. This is probably better served in a new thread, so I will move it there.
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    Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:08 pm  

    BTW, I think that a supposed Flan kingdom would have been found more to the north - the quick military actions Vecna is supposed to have made against the Olves are unexplainable if we assume that his forces had to cross the entire Nyrond bassin first...
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    Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:06 am  

    So now the line is that Vecna ruled from the Rushmoors to the Great Kingdom?

    And was still ruling when the Oeridians and Suel came in?

    But didn't actually notice, or impede them in any significant way?

    Vecna is the drow -- that's all I've got to say.

    Where is all this written down?

    (I'm annoyed at GLH & Iquander for perpetuating this nonsense.)
    Nell.
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    Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:18 am  
    Whoa!

    Whoa Nelly!

    I did find several references to the Rushmoors in Canonfire text. I have not been to my shelf yet to try and find the references, but I will look up what I can.

    I was interested more in your map than ranting though. Where did you get the info for Vecna's Realm? As I have told everyone until they are probably tired, I am working on a project for this area and would like all the concrete facts I can find.

    Actually I have read so much, that I dont always remeber which is "Canon," and which is not.

    However, from a practical standpoint, I cannot see an empire in this area that does not choose to fortify the Rushmoors. Swamps are great for defense, horrible for offense.

    How did you decide where Vecna's Realm went? and where did you dig up the info on Tdon, i have been searching for that for some time. THanks
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    Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:27 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    So now the line is that Vecna ruled from the Rushmoors to the Great Kingdom?

    And was still ruling when the Oeridians and Suel came in?

    But didn't actually notice, or impede them in any significant way?

    Vecna is the drow -- that's all I've got to say.

    Where is all this written down?

    (I'm annoyed at GLH & Iquander for perpetuating this nonsense.)
    Nell.


    If I am not mistaken, Vecna Lives is the source for Sheldomar Vecna, while the Book of Artifacts (2E) is the source for Central Flanaess Vecna. The two conflict, particularly on the topic of the Yaheetes. I do not recall an attempt to reconcile the two; it seems one may be chosen over another, depending on who is doing the choosing.

    IMC, I have the Yaheetes native to the shores of the Nyr Dyv but pushed south by the Ur-Flan in prehistory. Vecna later crushes the southern Yaheetes. Subsequently, an atavistic Yaheete survival in eastern Ferrond is put down by the Overking centuries later. This resolves at least the Yaheete conflict, holding both sources valid.

    As an aside, I do not subscribe to the theory that "everybody before the Migrations was some kind of Flan." IMC/O, the Ur-Flan were distinct from the Flan generally, as I laid out in my article Return of the Ur-Flan. Even more distinct were the Yaheetes, who were not Flan at all but a rival group, once vassals to the masters of the Isles of Woe in prehistory (given their presumptive location in the central Flanaess per the Book of Artifacts).

    I think the fall of Vecna in the early Migration period, -357 CY per Samwise's Sheldomar Timeline Part I, works as it keeps the Oeridians moving east, not south, for the most part up to that point. I might have pushed it back a bit more in time but I think the -357 CY date is workable, IMO.

    Vecna II in Tyrus in -72CY is more problematic, IMO, but still workable. Two Vecna's itch a little, IMO. I might have pushed the date forward as well. Still, I think it works.

    I agree that Vecna has worn a little thin but I would not put him in the same shop worn category as the drow. Vecna is one of the few things I like about Iuz. Like Godzilla and Ghidorah, the two have memorably clashed. Twice, each taking one fall. With Vecna now a god, the rubber match should be spectacular. IMC/O, it will result in Iuz ascending to full godhood and physically leaving Oerth, finally. I think Vecna still has some mileage in him.
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    GVD
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    Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:45 am  
    Vecna

    I am not actually that interested in Vecna. The whole Vecna Lives! Die Vecna Die! cycle was a little more of him than I wanted. He was better as unknown/unknowable history.

    However, where his dark realm extended is of interest. I recently read Vecna Lives, and will reread the appropriate sections. What I need from all this is the influence this has, if any on the world today. Are there troves of artifacts from the regin of Vecna under Shiboleth. Not if his empire was in Hepmonland.

    However, if Vecna was in the central Sheldomar, I find it suprising that A) he would build his tower in the Rushmoors; B) he would not fortify the area as it is a natural defensive barrier.

    By the way, where is Fleeth?
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    Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:45 pm  

    I don't have Vecna Lives. I don't have the Book of Artifacts (2e). I obviously don't have any of the really important stuff. I just have the LGG.

    page 50, under Gran March: History "Legend holds that, after the defeat of Vecna and the dissolution of his empire (placed in the northern part of the Sheldomar Valley in some accounts), the nascent Keoish crown created an order of knights in the frontier region."

    The "frontier region" is presumably the Gran March. If Keoland defeated Vecna, then there must be SOMEWHERE Vecna doesn't hold. So, he might hold the Rushmoors, but no further -- otherwise there'd be no place for Keoland.

    Never mind how the Oeridians all walked through Ket and into Keoland but didn't notice him, or the peaceful, primitive flan people they encountered just to the north....all the Vecnites doubtlessly teleported back and forth between their Keoish holdings and their little hangouts in the Isle of Woe.....

    Then again, you could go with page 64, Keoland:History "The remaining Suel houses fought the local Flan and abundant nonhumans for control of the rest of the land, which was dominated by near-mythical Empire of Vecna in the north. ... The next few seasons brought many changes to the land, as the Oeridian tribes entered the Sheldomar Valley from the north after a great upheaval brought down the Empire of Vecna from within."

    The only contemporary (non 1st-ed DMG) Tdon reference I found was in Iuz, where a disappearance is compared to the disappearance of the Dervishes of Tdon. It reads to me like a colloquial, local sort of analogy, and since Tenh isn't strongly Oeridian, I choose not to accept GLH's argument that it's a carryover from the Grande Olde Anciente Oeridiane Times. Someone, not necessarily GLH, also noted that "dervishes" are more likely to be found in Bakluni lands than the Flanaess, but that isn't really helpful either. Dervishes aren't found in the Flanaess because the Oeridians don't have them, and because of our (the reader's) real-world biases, reflected in designer's insistence on making everything east of Rome in our world west of the Yatils in Greyhawk. It's sad, really.

    Also, I think making all the ancient heros Oeridian and the ancient villains Flan is getting really old, like drow and the great, trans-oceanic empire of Vecna the Really Good At Teleporting, At Least Until The Last Time When He Came Apart .

    I can just picture a thousand inns ALL across the Flanaess, with little plagues..."Vecna Lost His Lefte Thumbe Here!"

    Nell., The Slightly Prickly.
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    Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:11 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I can just picture a thousand inns ALL across the Flanaess, with little plagues..."Vecna Lost His Lefte Thumbe Here!"

    Nell., The Slightly Prickly.


    ROFL! A villianous George Washington, Father of a Thousand Atrocities! Laughing

    I know your mini-rant is not aimed at me as I am no one in the grand scheme of published matters or the fannish Vecnization of the Flanaess. I will offer a comment, however.

    Vecna Lives and the Book of Artifacts both talk about Vecna in terms of "millennia." This would seem to rule out his empire in modern times. Vecna was, however, a fully human arch-mage before he became a lich, arch-lich, demi-god and finally god (in Die Vecna Die). He had a long time to rule. In the later stages of his reign, pre-Kas, he is described as pretty much an absentee landlord; thus, he forged the Sword of Kas as a symbol of Kas' authority to run day-to-day affairs. Kas, apparently, was as busy plotting against Vecna as he was running the empire, and we all know how matters turned out.

    Given this, it is not unreasonable to imagine that the "empire" was not at its height, or a least being terribly assertive, when the Migrations hit. Waves of immigrants might have pushed through the outer areas of the empire without being greatly impeded. The sheer number of Oeridian immigrants would have been difficult for Kas to halt, particularly if (lich) Vecna was otherwise away (working on arch-lich status (?)), and Kas was plotting against Vecna all the while.

    As for Vecna being everywhere, a case can be made for that, certainly. He becomes a Flanaess-wide bogey-man. He was Iuz-like before Iuz was Iuz and his "empire" may have similarly expanded and contracted like that of Iuz.

    The LGG material is troublesome IMO because it attempts to shoehorn Vecna into the Sheldomar without accounting for the "Vecna-sightings" in a variety of sources or the implications of having Vecna as a neighbor. Pardon the observation but Vecna, in his own way, is as variously described (at least his empire) as WeeJas. Cool

    If I have a complaint about the LGG it is that it is often too "pat." It is a fine job but suffers from the "I'm in charge and I say it goes like this because I like it this way and I don't need to explain nothing" syndrome. The LGG tried to "cleanup" the greater portion of the Flanaess and, in the main, did a very good job, IMO. Smile But explainations are sometimes wanting and any kind of digging will reveal that the LGG swept things under the rug as much as it cleaned them up. (My particular peeve is how it describes patterns of worship that make almost no sense Mad but that's another rant. Happy )

    I think the Vecna of the LGG is plausible and as well the Vecna of the Sheldomar Timeline Part I, but nothing is perfect. As with a certain goddess, there is grist for any number of mills. Wink
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    GVD
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    Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:28 pm  

    It's funny to see a thread on ancient cultures, as I just spent a great deal of time going through my resources on the topic.

    I agree with GVDammerung in that the "everything pre-migrations was Flan" line is getting very old. In fact, the established published lore of the Greyhawk setting hints at dozens of pre-historical cultures that have yet to be "assigned" to any known Flanaess cultural group (and that probably shouldn't be).

    I've discovered several of these cultures and posted the relevant "canonical" references to them on my almost-ready-for-prime-time blog, which can be found here:

    http://www.superunicorn.com/erik

    As for Vecna, my vision of his "empire" at the time of the Migrations is a wide swath of land extending from the path of Oeridian migration north of the Nyr Dyv (the dotted line on p. 10 of the Guide marks its rough northern border) to the Rushmoors in the south, which comprised the seat of Vecna's power and was the site of the Spidered Throne. Basically, the Suel and Oeridian "arrow points" near the Rushmoors indicate conflict with Vecna's empire.

    I haven't yet figured out why Vecna wouldn't have just dominated the Fals Gap and thus prevent most of the migrants, but then I also tend to think that the sheer numbers of refugees would have tested even his considerable defenses. Perhaps some native folk prevented such dominion? I dunno, yet.

    As far as the Book of Artifacts and the Yaheetes are concerned, I consider that the domain of a "False Vecna," which is to say some crazy bastard with the lich's Eye and Hand who arose after the "original" Vecna. This figure was possibly the first to do so.

    In my vision of Greyhawk's ancient history, Kas the Bloody-Handed managed a group of fairly primitive Flan berserker types (think Picts, with the body paint and all) who dwelled along the north shore of the Velverdyva River, near modern day Dyvers. The vampire lord was one of the only characters in Vecna's loosely affiliated "empire" who could keep these primitives in line and use them as effective shop troops, and thus Kas's value to Vecna grew and grew, until he ultimately beyrayed and (mostly) destroyed the lich. Kas ruled from a city called Tycheron, incidentally, located somewhere near Caltaran or Dianrift.

    A lot of the basis for this comes from Vecna Lives, and a little from the Book of Artifacts. Admittedly, these sources are far from precise and often contradictory, but that's part of the fun of making sense of Greyhawk.

    I favor placing Vecna in the Flanaess as a Migrations-era figure simply because I think the setting is more interesting with a major villain present at the time of the most important historical event of the (eastern) continent.

    Some day I will work all of this up in a more cohesive manner, and make efforts to fix a couple of minor errors that crept into the Vecna piece I've posted on Canonfire.

    It's likely that I will post this on my blog, which I hope to keep as an active "working space" for my Greyhawk thinking, among various musings about life in general.

    --Erik Mona
    www.superunicorn.com/erik
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    Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:15 pm  
    Vecna, Vecna, everywhere

    Vecna, Vecna, everywhere?

    Well, to me this does not pose as much of a problem as it might seem. Myths, legends and stories are not history, but can often be confused for them. We see this happen in many ways and times in the past.

    So here is what I would posit... Vecna was just in one place, the Sheldomar seems to be a good candidate for that place. His throne fell at or before the coming of the various tribes, but not long before. His lieutenants were still fighting over the remnants of the kingdom (think Alexander the Great here or Charlemagne, or just about any other great and tyrannical leader who failed to have offspring).

    Then the various tribes started showing up. And pushing through. But the stories of Vecna's depridations were so horrendus, the evil so pervasive, that the stories themselves became part of the legends of the various tribes.

    Even if the Oerdian tribes never truly encountered Vecna, or Kas, their legacy lived on in the tribes stories. The Holy Grail was an almost unknown tale, prior to Chretien De Troyes in the 1100s. Even today, everyone knows what the holy grail was Smile

    So, where was Vecna? it doesnt matter; the stories of him spread, and the bard telling them found the story much scarier if the audience thought that Vecna died just around the corner, or under the next hill.

    One way of skinning the cat.
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    Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:11 pm  

    iquander wrote:
    I haven't yet figured out why Vecna wouldn't have just dominated the Fals Gap and thus prevent most of the migrants, but then I also tend to think that the sheer numbers of refugees would have tested even his considerable defenses. Perhaps some native folk prevented such dominion? I dunno, yet.


    Here's a hypothetical - maybe Vecna's western border wasn't fortified against Oeridians because Oeridians were fortifying his western border. They were mercenaries. It's not unreasonable that an Oeridian tribe was tasked, recruited, or paid to hold Fals Gap, but when push came to shove, that group was simply absorbed into the general Oeridian migration. Vecna's empire didn't pass into general folklore because the people who encountered and overcame it a) were those already familiar with it, and b) took the brunt of damage.

    One thing that periodicly strikes me, and I've been reminded of recently, is the absolutely incredible variety of peoples, cultures, and nations that can live in far closer proximity than we usually acknowledge today. The fantasy worlds we create, when compared to "real life", nearly always come up looking like the grossest of simplifications. I absolutely understand why this is, and accept it...but a little complexity is alot of fun.


    Someday I'll have write up just one or two little hexes on the map. That'd be cool.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:26 pm  
    Cheers Nell

    Cheers Nell, that is exactly what we are engaged in as we speak. We hope to have an indepth view of just a few small sections of Gran March.

    Also, I like the whole mercenary angle, though I would think from the descriptions that Kas would be the one practiacal enough to put mercenaries on the border.
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    Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:00 pm  

    Quote:
    Also, I think making all the ancient heros Oeridian and the ancient villains Flan is getting really old, like drow...

    I've noted that as well but I think it is merely a function of the subjective nature of history -- we all know the adage that the victors write the history books.

    Today's Flan are entirely marginalized by mainstream (Oeridian) society. They do not have access to the same economic, academic and social resources afforded those of Oeridian (or Suel) descent.

    Events in American history from the perspective of a native American would scarcely be recognized by a member of mainstream American society. (Although I suppose post-modern approaches to the study of history are changing that.)

    It is entirely possible that Vecna's contemporaries viewed him as something of a national hero and it was only subsequent Oeridian historians that villified him. Along similar lines, the flaws of Oeridian "heroes" may have been excised by those same authors.

    The reality of the Flanaess is that it is essentially an Oeridian world, and it is the Oeridian worldview that has come to dominate.

    It would be interesting to see a revisionist account of Vecna where he is viewed as the defender of Flan civilization against the barbaric Oeridian hordes.
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    Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:40 pm  

    Mordo wrote:
    Exactly what I was looking for Happy

    Quote:
    Not finished stuff, just work-in-progress. Someday, maybe....


    If you wish, I might help...

    Also, any info on dwarven kingdom?


    Check out the Runes of the Dwur(RD):
    Here: http://hem.passagen.se/warlich/Greyhawk/World/the_world__greyhawk.html ->Dwarves Runes and Migrations
    and here: http://billg350.tripod.com/races_of_greyhawk.htm

    There`s some great fan made material on the Dwur in GH tying in the Axe of Dwarvish Lords into the history of the Flanaess. I found "Personnages Dwur" and "Les clans de Dwur" (detailed compilation and extrapolation on Dwur history) on my HD. Both by Laurent Debelle and Stéphane Tanguay (Les Faconniers) . I even found a half complete attempted translation into english of Les Clans Dwur.

    French versions available here:
    http://perso.netultra.net/ggf/biblio.htm
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