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    Canonfire :: View topic - The god's Trap
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    The god's Trap
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
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    From: France

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    Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:07 am  
    The god's Trap

    Hoping to exchange with the current calm, here is my vision of the God's trap.

    I don't like the vampire Thrommel, the clones and the Godís Trap. Concerning the Godís Trap, it is described in WGR1 initially, in the Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk Castle and in Rob Kuntz's homage in The Bottle City.

    It seems possible to me that Zagyg captures Iuz with his band of quasi-deities and Saint Cuthbert. But why ?

    EGG gives nine names of demi-gods which are, in fact, 8 gods of lower rank (AD&D1) and then of intermediate rank in AD&D2. Problem: 8 important gods and Iuz, a demigod ! An important item: in WGR1, there are 8 alcoves and Iuz in the middle of the room. Interesting !
    I am against the idea of Zagyg capturing such 8 powerful gods for his divine ascension. Zagyg is not Vecna. Boccob would oppose it.

    And now: we can imagine 8 alcoves for 8 gods of intermediate statut with either a statue of the god, or a throne, with a statue of Boccob in the center of the room, facing the prison of Iuz.
    OK for the prison of Iuz.

    The truth: the alcoves are used to communicate with the 8 gods at the request of Boccob (system to be defined by the DM, which Zagyg executes). Voir The Bottle City.
    And Iuz is in the God's Trap.
    Your opinion ?
    Jacques
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    Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:59 am  

    Itís necessary to consider that at the time Gary Gygax listed the imprisoned deities, the rules governing those deities had not yet been published (or written). Various authors have suggested different deities, and the only ones canonized (to the best of my knowledge) are Iuz, Wastri, Merikka, and Zuoken.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:29 pm  

    The Nine are : Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnul, Olidammara, Heironeous, Hextor, Celestian, and Obad-Hai
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:54 pm  

    I really like the idea that the nine as listed by EGG/RJK were mere demigods at the time of their imprisonment, but have risen to Lesser God status as a result of their freeing.

    I don't like how many gods occupy Intermediate status as per FTA (it was only Cyndor in the Goldbox set), so I keep Cuthbert, Ehlonna, and the rest as lesser deities who but a century past were demigods.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:33 am  

    Docjacques wrote:
    The Nine are : Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnul, Olidammara, Heironeous, Hextor, Celestian, and Obad-Hai


    Those were the nine prisoners in Gary Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign, but his original campaign is deliberately different from the published setting. When he published the World of Greyhawk Folio, he changed details to avoid spoiling his players. Other than Iuz and arguably Olidammara, the Gygax-era sourcebooks don't give us a full list, and apart from the City of Greyhawk boxed set adding Wastri fans of the setting had the freedom to come up with lists of their own. It was only as the internet took off that we learned it in the mid-1990s.

    Details on the gods have changed, too. When Robilar and Terik (was Terik there?) first loosed the demigods, named like Heironeous and Hextor meant nothing to them and much of Greyhawk's world was undeveloped, so whether they were imprisoned or free had no immediate consequences. Robilar's patron was Odin; Erac's Cousin gated in Zeus. The theology of the original Greyhawk campaign was very different from what the setting would become. But now we're told Hextor is the patron of House Naelax and one of the most prominent deities in one of the most powerful nations in the Flanaess. Whether you call him a demigod, a lesser god, or an intermediate god isn't important; what's important is that he's a culturally important god, and his disappearance should have major consequences that the setting as described doesn't account for. Could Naelax have held power so soon after the Turmoil Between Crowns with their god going silent for decades, their clerics reduced to their most basic spells? Iuz lost much of his kingdom during this period. What of the Shield Lands, what of Nyrond, what of the County of Ulek, ruled by druids of the Old Faith? If a god can disappear without consequence to the setting, is that an interesting story to tell?

    In contrast, some of the alternatives already do have consequences. Merikka's disappearance led to the Cult of the Reptile God taking over her temple in Orlane. Alia no longer answering her clerics is part of the backstory of a pregenerated character in The Lost Shrine of Tamoachan. Rudd's capture led to Olidammara's transformation to his carapaced form as he attempted to rescue her. And of course the Horned Society took over half of Iuz's lands.

    I'm not sure Boccob the Uncaring would really care how powerful the prisoners were, but I think he would demand balance. I think the gods in general would have to agree to a roughly balanced mix, not because they agree that balance is desirable in itself but simply to avoid divine war. Perhaps Merikka volunteered to sacrifice herself as counterbalance to Chaos and Evil losing Iuz as an active piece on the board.

    In any case, Gary Gygax's Greyhawk campaign is obviously the most important and consequential Greyhawk campaign, but it's still just one Greyhawk campaign, and I think he always intended for other groups to create their own Greyhawk adventures rather than imitate his group exactly.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 04, 2023 11:33 am  

    The "demi" of their status could be in the classical sense and they are all part-mortal.

    Also, "intermediate" ranking was added later on in 2nd ed, so it is perhaps not appropriate to critique the 9 because their rank was raised so dramatically from demi and lesser.

    As for Iuz remaining demi status, he likely had more issues than the others in raising his rank, getting in trouble with Tzuggtmoy and such. Of course, he also has a soul object like a demon lord, so he might well be closer to a lesser power anyway, like demon lords were in AD&D.

    As for why, and how, they were captured, I would chalk it up to whimsy. Or, as I off-handedly quipped to EGG one time, because Xagyg beat them at chess and the wager was imprisonment until released. He liked it, and while I just tossed it out, I realized it was as good an explanation as any, so that is the "secret" in my campaign. And a reason to be particularly careful when you encounter chess puzzles in random dungeons.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 11, 2023 5:05 am  

    Quote:
    In any case, Gary Gygax's Greyhawk campaign is obviously the most important and consequential Greyhawk campaign, but it's still just one Greyhawk campaign, and I think he always intended for other groups to create their own Greyhawk adventures rather than imitate his group exactly.


    I agree.

    IMC, our primary GM made one of the gods in Zagig's Godtrap Myrhiss. When we released her, she blessed the PC who actually freed her as thanks for "bringing love back into the world." That event has had continuing impact on our game 20 years later in real time ... including the current events of our most recent sessions.

    It's cool knowing who Gygax used in his game, but I don't think it should be a stranglehold on DMs running their own games. We should be free to come up with our own ideas to tell new stories and create new lore.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
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    Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:45 am  

    [ It's cool knowing who Gygax used in his game, but I don't think it should be a stranglehold on DMs running their own games. We should be free to come up with our own ideas to tell new stories and create new lore.[/quote]


    Thank you all for your responses. Agree with Rasgon. EttRoG is 2013. Zuoken prisoner at the end of Erik Mona's adventure, for almost a century? what has become of its priests, its monks? how did Xan Yae, the Bakluni pantheon, react?
    AD&D1 was a big time when a group of gamers asked a magazine for the release date of D&DG 2 because they had killed all the gods in D&DG soon!

    Jacques
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