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    Canonfire :: View topic - Destroying Greyhawk
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    Destroying Greyhawk
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun May 15, 2005 4:46 pm  
    Destroying Greyhawk

    This is a hypothetical thread, not an actual one. I am not destroying Greyhawk (yet). I'm not requiring you destroy Greyhawk. But recent thoughts in another thread got my mind on this topic.
    The goal of this exercise is to create a new, different, and revitalized Greyhawk setting.
    Assume your starting date is 595 CY, and everything previous confirms to current canon (ie, you're stuck with the GH Wars).

    How would you get rid of the current GH setup?
    Would you take the slow route, and simply move the timeline up a00, 200, or 500 years?
    Or the fast route, and unleash the Red Plague, which devastates the Flanaess in a matter of months?

    Cheers
    Nell.


    Last edited by Nellisir on Thu May 19, 2005 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Sun May 15, 2005 7:56 pm  

    If i were to destroy it, I'd turn it into a multiverse-wide event. One of the big planar forces decides to make their move on the power source that is Oerth, and comparable forces move in to counter the efforts.

    Slaad battling modrons, devils vs solars, yugoloths (daemons) making a play by supporting some of the underdog gods like the EEG, etc. Artifacts utilized to their fullest potential, demi-planes ruptured and spilling into the Flanaess, gates to the Plane of Shadow, the Far Realms, Ravenloft, or wherever sounded good to me at the time...

    I really don't want to destroy Greyhawk. But if yer gonna go out, make it extremely memorable.
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    Sun May 15, 2005 8:36 pm  
    Re: Destroying Greyhawk

    Nellisir wrote:
    This is a hypothetical thread, not an actual one. I am not destroying Greyhawk (yet). I'm not requiring you destroy Greyhawk. But recent thoughts in another thread got my mind on this topic.
    The goal is to create a new, different, and revitalized Greyhawk setting.
    Assume your starting date is 595 CY, and everything previous confirms to current canon (ie, you're stuck with the GH Wars).

    How would you get rid of the current GH setup?
    Would you take the slow route, and simply move the timeline up a00, 200, or 500 years?
    Or the fast route, and unleash the Red Plague, which devastates the Flanaess in a matter of months?

    Cheers
    Nell.


    My GM just finished running a lengthy story arc where Iuz nearly won the Greyhawk Wars. Iuz managed to trick our characters when they recovered the Crook of Rao and gave it to Grand Canon Hazen--when he performed the ritual to cause the Flight of Fiends, he also created a barrier that kept the gods from interacting with their followers unless they were on the Prime Material Plane when the ritual was performed. Iuz then started hunting down the other demi-gods and stealing their powers and became a lesser god.

    One PC ended up having to take control of Nyrond when King Lynwerd disappeared, and another went insane, recovered, but was forced to return to her home in the Great Kingdom to deal with problems there.

    Two new PCs joined in a quest to find the Codex of Infinate Planes to undo the damage. It was a fun ride. We eventually defeated Iuz, and undid his schemes, and the greater gods stripped him of most of his power, but he's still lurking in shadows with the possibility of coming back.

    Nonetheless, hope has returned to the Flanaess. Lynwerd is back in power, Nyrond and Furyondy are recovering, and there is an attempt underway to reunify the Great Kingdom. Much work remains to be done, Turrosh Mak and the Scarlet Brotherhood remain threats, but a great victory took place--lots of feel good stuff Happy

    Theala
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    Mon May 16, 2005 3:43 am  

    Why bother? There's a whole, wide world out there to explore - Greyhawk certainly doesn't end at the borders of the Flanaess. Developing/defining a new game world, or a sizable chunk of it, is a somewhat Herculean undertaking that I don't envision myself ever having the freetime for. But if I did, and my PCs had grown tired of exploring the Flanaess as is, I'd shuttle them off over the western mountains, or the eastern sea, in search of new adventures.

    I like the idea that you can always go home again - especially when home is the Flanaess, which is as near and dear to my heart as a fictional locale can be.
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    Mon May 16, 2005 4:57 am  

    More fun is to let Vecna win in 'Vecna Lives' which give you a darker, more sinister world akin to the Ravenloft realms. Since I want my pcs to play that mod, I have to wait until they are a few levels higher, but I haven't decided what to do about it yet...
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    Mon May 16, 2005 5:53 am  

    Quote:
    More fun is to let Vecna win in 'Vecna Lives' which give you a darker, more sinister world akin to the Ravenloft realms.
    I did just that a long time ago, in a time travelling storyline I did. Vecna had to be taken down at the behest of a couple elves who came from Vecna's twisted Oerth. I'm fuzzy on the exact details, I may have used Tovag Baragu's gates as a method, not sure.
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    Mon May 16, 2005 3:55 pm  

    Me, I'd have a VERY large army, renainassance style invade. They'd make comments about how quaint some paladin's full plate was and then blast him w/ a musket volley. A fireball is good and all, but a barrage of cannons?
    Not sure if I'd have them come from another continent or an invasion via Spelljamming...
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    Tue May 17, 2005 3:06 am  

    If GH is insufficiently new, different, and vital, why use it at all? Just start a whole new campaign.

    Just a thought :)

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    Tue May 17, 2005 7:50 am  
    The Flanaess in 645 CY

    A bit of both. Allow the setting to evolve 50 years or so:

    The Flanaess in 645 CY:

    Aerdy is reunited under the rule of the Darmen overkings after the second Turmoil Between the Crowns (otherwise known as the War of the Two Overkings) between Overkings Xavener of Darmen (called the Magnificent) and Overking Strychan of Naelax (called the Depraved).

    Keoland has returned to its imperial ways and reclaimed most of the Sheldomar-Javan Basin. Led by the Knights of the Watch, the armies of Keoland push once more into the Bakluni West - overrunning Ket and fighting to hold the line of the Tuflik while the hordes of the Great Madhi swirl about their border castles.

    The Bakluni lands have been reunited by the Great Madhi, who, raising the horde of the Paynim and with the blessing of the Shah of the Waters crushed in turn Ull, Zeif and Tusmit, before at last both the Caliph and the Grand Mufti knelt to recognise him as the servant of the Gods. The armies of the Mahdi have now rejoined the ancient struggle in defence of their homelands against the Suel in the form of the Knights of the Watch and the armies of Keoland in Ket.

    The Empire of Iuz collapsed when it was discovered that the demi-god had departed the Oerth soon after the end of the Greyhawk Wars. The Bandit Lands have reverted to type - warring with each other and the Knights of the Holy Shielding. Tenh is restored under the rule of the House of Labalah and is free once more after decades of Palish interference and occupation. The Rovers and the Coltens united briefly to destroy the legacy of Stonefist and the tyrannical rule of Sevvord, breaking up into their traditional tribal groupings once the victory was won.

    Iggwilv rules as Witchqueen of Perrenland and the north, having overun the cantons with the hordes of her late husband the Khan of the Chakyik. The Weigwur have been decimated and scattered, while the survivors of the Boneheart in Dorakka now look fearfully to the north and west. They hold the city and the Howling Hills with fanatical doggedness, guarding them for their Dread Master's return they say.

    Furyondy too is only waking to the new threat. After the death of Belvor the Defender and the short but catastrophic reign of Thrommel the Black, the throne of Furyondy has become a playing piece for the Great Lords of the realm, politicking and conspiring among themselves. Thus they failed to capitalise on the collapse of Iuz's territories and have been heedless to the fall of the Weigwur and the Perrenish, despite calls from the lesser nobility of the north and their allies among the Highfolk. The Furyondian Knights of the Hart have become wealthy and, some say corrupt, after their annexation of Verbobonc, Dyvers and Greyhawk City. A new king elect, Avras V of the House of Jakarti, has just come to the throne - hardly more than a boy and thus easy to manipulate, or so the Great Lords think.

    Celene has awoken. Stung into action by the razing of Enstad by the hordes of the Mak (as the hereditary Despot of the Pomarj is known), the Celeni and the armies of Ulek now wage the Second Hateful Wars throughout the Lortmils and Pomarj, a conflict that will only end with the utter destruction of one side or the other.

    Greyhawk's fortunes have waned. Weakened by the rebellion of Hardby and the cities of the Wild Coast, it foolishly became embroiled in an open war with Dyvers, which resulted in its sacking and occupation by the Furyondian Knights of the Hart (aided by the forces of Hardby and mercenaries hired with Ahlissan gold), who also rule in Dyvers and Verbobonc, reaping untold wealth from trade taxes.

    The County Urnst resisted reunification with the Duchy after Countess Belissica died without issue. The lines of Gellor and Lorinar still rule in peace and prosperity, the banks of Leukish and Radigast providing something of counterweight those of Kalstrand, Rel Deven and Rel Astra.

    In the Pale, the Radient Inquistion has burned out the last remnants of the Liberal heresy which briefly held power in the Theocracy after the death of Ogron Tillit. Defeat in Tenh and a reurgent Nyrond has forced the Palish to withdraw in on themselves, practically shutting themselves off from the outside world.

    Nyrond has enjoyed long years of peace and prosperity, interrupted only by a brief and doomed rebellion by Sewedernt, the brother of the late King Lynwerd the Reclaimer. The scarred lands of Almor have been restored, as have the mines of the Flinty Hills. However, the fate of the Bone March is rapidly becoming a source of tension between Ahlissa and Nyrond, with both sides citing rival claims to the former imperial province. Skirmishes have already occured between Nyrondese and Ahlissan ships in the southern seas.

    To the north, Ratik and the Fruztii are united by marriage and the Fruz have long since brought the Schnai to heel. Only the jarls of the Cruski remain defiant, claiming that the Fruztii are the lapdogs of the red panderers of the south (the Brothers of the Scarlet Sign).

    After many threats to its integrity (including a civil war in Onnwal), the Iron League endures, if still tenuously. Sunndi remains resolute behind her natural defences, trading through Dullstrand. Onnwal and Irongate stand fast together, their ships now joining the great boom of exploration to the south and east.

    The land of Shar has been battered and assailed, but are still in the hands of the Scarlet Sign. The Brotherhood suffered a crushing naval defeat at the Battle of Scant at the hands of the Azure League, which saw ships of Ahlissa, Keoland, Ulek, Nyrond and the Iron League united against the Brotherhood and the Lordship and Pomarji allies. An invasion of Shar followed. Howeber, while their armies struggled to take the passes onto the high plateau of the Tilvanot, the allies were sundered by quarrels and mistrust and in the end were forced to withdraw. The Brotherhood has drawn back into the shadows, spinning its webs of assassination, infilitration andespionage throughout the Flanaess, defending the shores of Shar, expanding its holdings on Hepmonaland and warring with the exploration fleets of Keoland, the Iron League, Ahlissa and Nyrond as they spread south along the coasts of Hepmonaland, setting up colonies and trading with the Touv states.

    As the influence of the northern traders grows in the courts of the Touv, some in Hesuel Ilshar, Kalstrand, Niole Dra, Rel Mord and elsewhere see the chance to use the Touv's divisions to their own advantage, supporting friendly states against those who favour their rivals. Among the Touv the conviction grows among the wise that unless they unite, they will be swallowed piecemeal by the voracious northerners. War clouds gather over southern Hepmonaland.

    In the south-east, trading ships from the Flanaess call at the fabulous ports of Zahind and the spice isles of the Kallaraj, where the Dragon Emperor rules. Some have even ventured as far as the fabled metropoli of the Celestial Empire, where the mandarins of the Celestial Emperor carry out his edits through thought alone, 'tis said. Equally ships from the south and west call to the ports of the Azure, Nyrond and Greyhawk City. However, the future of these routes has been threatened by the recent massacre of all Flanaessi traders in Kallaraj on the orders of the Dragon Emperor himself.

    To the west, the vessels of Ahlissa and the Frutz have reached the far eastern shores of Oerik and have set up trading colonies in the ports of the realms upon the Thither Shore.

    Then if you want an event that'll rock the Oerth, have a huge Kallaraj warfleet arrive off Naerie, their elite warriors resplendent in their wyrmscale armour, supported by flights of dragons, intent on avenging some offence (actually commited by agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood). A bit of reverse colonization anyone?


    Last edited by Woesinger on Thu May 19, 2005 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue May 17, 2005 6:35 pm  

    jwb3 wrote:
    If GH is insufficiently new, different, and vital, why use it at all? Just start a whole new campaign.


    Because that has nothing at all to do with the question, or this forum, and "What would you do differently if you're perfectly satisfied with Greyhawk? is a stupid question. ("What is your campaign like if you hate Greyhawk?", though related, isn't a stupid question, but is a pointless one in this forum.)

    It's a hypothetical. An exercise in imagination. A flight of fancy. Like the similarities between a postfest and a raven, but different. Care to play?

    Cheers,
    Nell.
    - And for the record, I don't play in Greyhawk. Never have, probably never will. Homebrew all the way, baby!
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    Tue May 17, 2005 7:14 pm  

    I'm a pretty big fan of what Gygax did with the Greyhawk / Gord "End of the World". Not what anyone would expect until *after* they read the ending and realized it was perfectly Gygaxian.

    I'm sure other endings would work... something like Arakis in "Heretics of Dune" (no spoilers here, but its ending had a greater meaning...).

    So many choices.
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    Wed May 18, 2005 2:48 am  

    Nell:

    Point taken :)

    I tend to be more of a status quo-type. Even though the exercise may be useful or fun, take too much of GH away and it loses its luster for me.

    Regards,

    Jack
    who plays only GH in D&D
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    Wed May 18, 2005 4:45 am  

    Hey, I'm with you jwb3, I totally feel the same way. I'm not gonna use any of the things I wrote, but it was a fun excercize anyway.

    So go ahead, we won't tell anyone in your campaign. Give her a go. You know you want to. C'mon, all the cool kids are doin it... Wink
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    Wed May 18, 2005 5:05 am  

    Shocked

    Woohoo! WHat could be more frightening and destructive as a bunch of chaotic evil kender vampires let loose on the Flanaess through a planar gate!
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    Wed May 18, 2005 5:52 am  
    Re: The Flanaess in 645 CY

    Woesinger wrote:
    A bit of both. Allow the setting to evolve 50 years or so:

    The Flanaess in 645 CY:

    Aerdy is reunited under the rule of the Darmen overkings after the second Turmoil Between the Crowns (otherwise known as the War of the Two Overkings) between Overkings Xavener of Darmen (called the Magnificent) and Overking Strychan of Naelax (called the Depraved).

    Keoland has returned to its imperial ways, reclaimed most of the Sheldomar-Javan Basin. Led by the knights of the Watch, the armies of Keoland push once more into the Bakluni West - overrunning Ket and fighting to hold the line of the Tuflik while the hordes of the Great Madhi swirl about their border castles.

    The Bakluni lands have been reunited by the Great Madhi, who raising the horde of the Paynim and with the blessing of the Shah of the Waters crushed in turn Ull, Zeif and Tusmit, before at last both the Caliph and the Grand Mufti knelt to recognise him as the servant of the Gods. The armies of the Mahdi have now rejoined the ancient struggle in defence of their homelands against the Suel in the form of the Knights of the Watch and the armies of Keoland in Ket.

    The Empire of Iuz collapsed when it was discovered that the demi-god had departed the Oerth soon after the end of the Greyhawk Wars. The Bandit Lands have reverted to type - warring with each other and the Knights of the Holy Shielding. Tenh is restored and free once more after decades of Palish interference. The Rovers and the Coltens united briefly to destroy the legacy of Stonefist and the tyrannical rule of Sevvord, breaking up into their traditional tribal groupings once the victory was won.

    Iggwilv rules as Witchqueen of Perrenland and the north, having overun the cantons with the hordes of her late husband the Khan of the Chakyik. The Weigwur have been decimated and scattered and the survivors of the Boneheart in Dorakka now look fearfully to the north and west. They hold the city and the Howling Hills with fanatical doggedness, guarding them for their Dread Master's return they say.

    Furyondy too is only waking to the new threat. After the death of Belvor the Defender and the short but catastrophic reign of Thrommel the Black, the throne of Furyondy has become a playing piece for the Great Lords of the realm, politicking and conspiring among themselves. Thus they failed to capitalise on the collapse of Iuz's territories and the fall of the Weigwur and the Perrenish. A new king elect, Avras V of the House of Jakarti, has just come to the throne - hardly more than a boy and thus easy to manipulate, or so the Great Lords think.

    Celene has awoken. Stung into action by the razing of Enstad by the hordes of the Mak (as the hereditary Despot of the Pomarj is known), the Celeni and the armies of Ulek now wage the Second Hateful Wars throughout the Lortmils and Pomarj, a conflict that will only end with the utter destruction of one side or the other.

    Greyhawk's fortunes have waned. Weakened by the rebellion of Hardby and the cities of the Wild Coast, it foolishly became embroiled in an open war with Dyvers, which resulted in its sacking and occupation by the Furyondian Knights of the Hart (aided by the forces of Hardby and mercenaries hired with Ahlissan gold), who also rule in Dyvers and Verbobonc, reaping untold wealth from trade taxes.

    The County Urnst resisted reunification with the Duchy after Countess Belissica died without issue. The lines of Gellor and Lorinar still rule in peace and prosperity, the banks of Leukish and Radigast providing something of counterweight those of Kalstrand, Rel Deven and Rel Astra.

    In the Pale, the Radient Inquistion has burned out the last remnants of the Liberal heresy which briefly held power in the Theocracy after the death of Ogron Tillit. Defeat in Tenh and a reurgent Nyrond has meant that the Palish have withdrawn in on themselves, practically shutting themselves off from the outside world.

    In the east, Nyrond has enjoyed long years of peace and prosperity, interrupted only by a brief and doomed rebellion by Sewedernt, the brother of the late King Lynwerd the Reclaimer. The scarred lands of Almor have been reclaimed, as have the mines of the Flinty Hills. However, the fate of the Bone March is rapidly becoming a source of tension between Ahlissa and Nyrond. Skirmishes have already occured between Nyrondese and Ahlissan ships in the southern seas.

    To the north, Ratik and the Fruztii are united and the Fruz have long since brought the Schnai to heel. Only the jarls of the Cruski remain defiant, claiming that the Fruztii are the lapdogs of the red panderers of the south (the SB).

    After many threats to its ingerity (including a civil war in Onnwal), the Iron League endures, if still tenuously. Sunndi remains resolute behind her natural defences, trading through Dullstrand. Onnwal and Irongate stand fast together, their ships now joining the great boom of exploration to the south and east.

    The lands of Shar have been battered, but are still in the hands of the Scarlet Sign. The Brotherhood suffered a crushing naval defeat at the Battle of Scant at the hands of the Azure League, which saw ships of Ahlissa, Keoland, Ulek, Nyrond and the Iron League united against the Brotherhood and the Lordship and Pomarji allies. An invasion of Shar followed, but, while their armies struggled to take the passes onto the high plateau of the Tilvanot, the alliance collapsed into acrimony and mistrust and the invaders withdrew. The Brotherhood has drawn back into the shadows, defending the shores of Shar and expanding its holdings on Hepmonaland, while warring with the exploration fleets of Keoland, the Iron League, Ahlissa and Nyrond as they spread south along the coasts of Hepmonaland, setting up colonies and trading with the Touv states.

    As the influence of the northern traders grows in the courts of the Touv, some in Hesuel Ilshar, Kalstrand, Niole Dra, Rel Mord and elsewhere see the chance to use the Touv's divisions to their own advantage, supporting friendly states against those who favour their rivals. Among the Touv the conviction grows among the wise that unless they unite, they will be swallowed piecemeal by the voracious northerners. War clouds gather over southern Hepmonaland.

    In the south-east, trading ships from the Flanaess call at the fabulous ports of Zahind and the spice isles of the Kallaraj, where the Dragon Emperor rules. Some have even ventured as far as the fabled metropoli of the Celestial Empire. Equally ships from the south and west call to the ports of the Azure, Nyrond and Greyhawk City. However, the future of these routes has been threatened by the recent massacre of all Flanaess traders in Kallaraj on the orders of the Dragon Emperor himself.

    To the west, the vessels of Ahlissa and the Frutz have reached the far eastern shores of Oerik and have set up trading colonies in the ports there.

    Then if you want an event that'll rock the Oerth, have a huge Kallaraj warfleet arrive off Naerie, their elite warriors resplendent in their wyrmscale armour, supported by flights of dragons, intent on avenging some offence (actually commited by agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood). A bit of reverse colonization anyone?


    I like this a great deal and would have no principled objections. I'd buy it, if someone would publish it.

    Good job! Happy
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    Wed May 18, 2005 6:18 am  

    GVD's right, this article is cool!

    *Ahem... OJ 16... ahem*
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    Wed May 18, 2005 6:40 am  

    Woesinger, this rocks! Great job!!

    What I love the most is that several things reverted back to the way they were in the original boxed set. :-) But your changes are great -- the Second Turmoil Between the crowns, brilliant!
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    Wed May 18, 2005 8:24 am  

    jwb3 wrote:
    I tend to be more of a status quo-type. Even though the exercise may be useful or fun, take too much of GH away and it loses its luster for me.


    So there's the question, then -- assuming you can't change the past, and you have to work from what's laid out in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, what would you do to make Greyhawk even -more- interesting, without losing it's Greyhawkian intrigue?

    Cheers,
    Nell.

    I *like* Greyhawk, mind you -- I think I've put in enough time on GH material for that to a given -- I just like my homebrews better. But the audience is smaller, and I'm a sucker for an egotrip.
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    Wed May 18, 2005 5:40 pm  

    BlackListed wrote:
    I'm a pretty big fan of what Gygax did with the Greyhawk / Gord "End of the World". Not what anyone would expect until *after* they read the ending and realized it was perfectly Gygaxian.

    I'm sure other endings would work... something like Arakis in "Heretics of Dune" (no spoilers here, but its ending had a greater meaning...).

    So many choices.


    I have heard Gary say that he left a way for it to be restored in the novels somehwere. I don't know if I buy it, but it certainly got me to reread the whole Gord series.
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    Thu May 19, 2005 1:51 pm  

    Only one thing Woesinger.
    Keoland would focus expansion south, into the Amedio. Much higher chance of success there than trying to clean the Bakluni, or get involved with the Ververdyva states.
    Leave the KotW as suicide troops holding the line against Bakluni expansion, clear the Pomarj instead of waiting for those silly Celenian elves to get around to it, and send the armies and colonists into the Amedio. Then you've got my 50-year plan for the Sheldomar.
    Cool
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    Fri May 20, 2005 1:29 am  
    More on an Age of Exploration for the Flanaess

    Samwise wrote:
    Only one thing Woesinger.
    Keoland would focus expansion south, into the Amedio. Much higher chance of success there than trying to clean the Bakluni, or get involved with the Ververdyva states.
    Leave the KotW as suicide troops holding the line against Bakluni expansion, clear the Pomarj instead of waiting for those silly Celenian elves to get around to it, and send the armies and colonists into the Amedio. Then you've got my 50-year plan for the Sheldomar.
    Cool


    That's the beauty of leaving things vague. I kinda assumed they'd be expanding south as well, but glossed over it. Perhaps the line of the Tuflik is too far west, but the basic idea is that those crazy Watchers are getting their crusade on somewhere in Ket against the forces of the Madhi (and not just because I saw Kingdom of Heaven the other week either :D). As you say it'd be a Watcher/Gran March + Bissel initiative, with occasional dollops of aid from the Throne of the Lion and possibly Veluna (see below).

    Keoland would be one of the main powers interested in expanding influence along the western shores of the Pearl Sea, making contacts with Zahind and Kallaraj (or Zindia and Nippon in that Dragon Annual 1 map). They'd probably have outposts in the Pearl Sea and along the Amedio coast.

    The Ahlissans would also have some outposts down there, as would the Nyrondese and the Iron Leaguers, but I thought the more eastern states would be jockeying for postion in Hepmonaland, forging alliances with the Olmans and Touv, clashing with the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Lords of the Isles. Plus Ahlissa has the Thither Shore of Oerik to mess around with (it's possible that there's small sects of Aerdi who think that the Destiny prophesised for the Oeridians by the Hidden Empress Johydee can be found on the other side of the Solnor - the Flanaess' equivalent of El Dorado or Prestor John perhaps?).

    As a model for the kinds of outposts that the varous states of the Flanaess might be setting up - I'd look to the early stages of Europe's Age of Exploration. For Zahind and Kallaraj, look at the small trading factories and enclaves set up by the Portugese, Dutch and English in India, the East Indies, Siam and Japan, where the Europeans encountered established and prosperous states. Imagine the Royal Guild of Merchants of Aerdy as the English or Dutch East India Company writ large (check out "The Honourable Company" by John Keay, an excellent history of the English East India Company). For the Amedio and Hepmonaland, the model would be more South America, where, given the sparesness of population, large territorial gains are possible, at least on paper - though the established Touv city states would be an exception.

    There is of course the question of just what these locales have to offer. Territory is a pretty weak reason in the jungles of the Amedio and Hepmonaland (not terribly fertile for farming and high mortality rates from disease). The savannas of Southern Hepmonaland are more promising in that regard, as would parts of Zahind and Kallaraj. Of course, those lands already have organised governments that would require conquering (not an easy prospect - esp Kallaraj - which I see as a militaristic society of sorceror warriors (somthing along the lines of samurai with arcane magic) ruled by an ancient wyrm and his brood).

    If you take the population figures for the Flanaess as presented in the LGG, then the only states that have even a shot at having population pressures are Ahlissa and Nyrond. IIRC the current pop of the UK of A is about 3 million; add about another 2.5 mill for the NK and SC, and then top that with 50 years of relative peaceful prosperous growth. Nyrond has about 1-2 million IIRC. Compare this with, say, Sunndi or Onnwal (300,000 and 70,000 IIRC - Ahlissa has more men of fighting age than Sunndi has people). So, along with the idea of some mystical manifest destiny, some of Ahlissa's yen for exploration might be driven by population pressures (as well as the desire of the Royal Guild to corner the spice markets - see below).

    Silk and spices spurred the European voyages of exploration (see "Spices - a History of a Temptation" by Jack Turner). So perhaps the lands beyond the Flanaess have rare spices that have, thanks ironically, to the efforts of the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Lords of the Isles, become popular and therefore profitable to trade in. The breaking of the Brotherhoood's stranglehold on the southern gates has allowed ships of the other states of the Flanaess access to the spices of the south.

    There's also the possibility that the rise of the Madhi and the belligerance of the Keoish has cut off trade with the Far West (Komal and beyond). So, just as in Europe, where the severing of the Silk Route by the Ottomans (among others) encouraged Europeans to seek alternate routes to the East, the sealing of the Fals Gap has had a similar effect on the Flanaess. In this case, you can see the cities of the Great Western Road (Thornward, Mitrik, Verbobonc, and Dyvers) going into decline as their trade in rare goods is cut off. Perhaps this is what encouraged the Gentry of Dyvers and the Knights of the Hart to make a play for Greyhawk and its trade links to the southern seas? Perhaps Velunese and Furyondian merchants are helping to bankroll the Watcher crusade in Ket, in return for access to markets and goods, in a vain attempt to compete with Ahlissan, Onnwalon, Keoish and Nyrondese trading costers, unloading shiploads of spices, rare woods and other exotica from the south?

    The final idea I'd throw out is that there's no certainty that the states of the Flanaess are going to conquer vast empires the way the European states did. A really interesting idea is that the great powers of the Flanaess might find themselves the target for invasion from outside the Flanaess. I see Kallaraj as being formidable and the Celestial Empire even more so (my mental thumbnail is a version of China where the emperor and the ruling and mandarin castes are psionic). Even the Touv shouldn;'t be regarded as colonisation fodder. That's not to say the Flanaessi are going to get the **** kicked, just that, as in the real world (esp in India, where the European powers were very marginal until the Mughal Empire began to disintegrate), their expansion beyond the Flanaess is not going to be a cakewalk (where would the fun be in that?).

    Just some raw brainjuice....

    P.
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    Fri May 20, 2005 4:02 am  

    1. I don't think Tuflik is too far. It's nice to push the envelope a little.

    2. What's Kallajar, and what source is it from?

    Cheers!
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    Fri May 20, 2005 5:27 am  

    Nellisir wrote:

    2. What's Kallajar, and what source is it from?


    My head. :)

    I needed to call the islands labelled on the Dragon Annual 1 something other than Nippon and that's what popped out of my grey matter. Kallaraj (which literally means black king in Hindi) might be the Zahindi name for the isles and the regime.

    P.
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    Fri May 20, 2005 2:47 pm  

    Interesting, take on the future...Woe Happy

    Two things...Off the top...

    1) What happened to Overking Grenell?

    Something is needed, Grenell spitefully names stychan heir to cause strife, Stychan gains military support by promising to drive "orcs from the land" since several humanoid tribes have grown bolder with time and brazen since Grenell's death. Unfortunately this popular cleansing of the land is costly both in men and material, seeing a weakened north Overking Xavener of Darmen begins the second Turmoil Between the Crowns (otherwise known as the War of the Two Overkings).

    EDIT: Something even simpler: Overking Grenell chosen successor Strychan depraved appetities finally repelled even the most jaded northern nobles causing many princes to slowly shift their support in favor of Overking Xavener.

    Provides more continuity for the GK by mentioning Grenell.

    2) Iggwilv again, remember only 50 years, Iuz would still be fresh, I doubt even the Bakluni especially the pious Madhi,would accept Iggwilv ruling in Perrenland to say nothing of Perrendlanders, Sheldomar states and Furyondy.

    Nicely done though, especially the exploration of differnt parts of the Flanaess.

    Just a thought...
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    Mon May 23, 2005 5:56 am  

    Crag wrote:

    1) What happened to Overking Grenell?


    What indeed...? :)

    My thoughts are that Strychan of Dustbridge, as presented in Ivid the Undying, is too ambitious, resourceful and cool to allow himself be squished like a grape between Ahlissa and NK. He knows he'll live neither long nor prosperously as a vassal of Xavener, so his only choice is to look North....


    Crag wrote:

    Something is needed, Grenell spitefully names stychan heir to cause strife,


    I actually had something a little more Naelaxy in mind...

    As to why I didn't mention Grenell - it leaves things open for people to fill in the blanks themselves. :)

    Crag wrote:

    2) Iggwilv again, remember only 50 years, Iuz would still be fresh, I doubt even the Bakluni especially the pious Madhi,would accept Iggwilv ruling in Perrenland to say nothing of Perrendlanders, Sheldomar states and Furyondy.


    The Perrenlanders have had little enough choice in the matter. :)
    Like everyone else, they ignored the war between the Nomads on their northern marches. The devestation of Eru Tovar set the first alarm bells ringing, especially given the involvment of fiends, but tt was only after the Chakyik were before the walls of Scwartzenbruin that the Witchqueen revealed herself. By then it was far too late.

    The Madhi certainly doesn't like the union of the Chakyik and the Witchqueen - especially since the nomads have started to raid northern Ekbir. However, his main focus is on Ket at the moment. That and the recovery of the Cup and Talisman of Al Akbar (anyone remember the passage in the LGG where the last king of the Valley Olve entrusted a sealed chest to the Grand Duke of Geoff before vanishing into the Crystalmists?).

    Keoland has concerns elsewhere - the south and the Bakuni. Certainly some of the Watchers have expressed some concern about affairs in the north, but while the Witchqueen stays north of the Yatils and the Bakluni refuse to stay west of the Tuflik, they have enough on their plates.

    Furyondy is only now waking up to the threat having spent the intervening time looking inward, overly concerned with internal politiking to bother about distant threats.

    Ironically, the people who are most worried about Iggwilv are Iuz's loyal servents in Dorakka. They know what sort of threat she is and fear she may try to betray her son by siezing the City of Skulls and his sacred sites in the Howling Hills (the Caverns of the Soul Husks). Hence, their dogged defence
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    Tue May 24, 2005 12:01 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    Only one thing Woesinger.
    Keoland would focus expansion south, into the Amedio. Much higher chance of success there than trying to clean the Bakluni, or get involved with the Ververdyva states.
    Leave the KotW as suicide troops holding the line against Bakluni expansion, clear the Pomarj instead of waiting for those silly Celenian elves to get around to it, and send the armies and colonists into the Amedio. Then you've got my 50-year plan for the Sheldomar.
    Cool


    I dissent on the colonization of the Amedio.

    Movement into the Hold of the Sea Princes - a difficult overland campaign, coupled with the need for four island hoping amphibous landings - will keep the Keolanders well occupied short of the Amedio for some time to come.

    Better to revive, resussitate, reveal an Olman Empire in the Amedio capable of giving those colonists a suitable greeting once they arrive - after the Hold is secured. Cool

    The best part of Woesinger's scenario IMO is the "Tuflik Line," which would require Keolandish support. If the alternative would see Velunese troops instead of Keolanders, I think the Keolanders would be given pause and decide, like it or not, that they need to be in Ket. Ket dominated by Veluna would not be in the Lion Throne's interest, particularly if Bissel and the Gran March are Veluna's allies.

    I think Keoland would deploy its forces thusly -

    20% - Ket Campaign, allied with GM, Bissel & Veluna
    30% - Fairwind Island Campaign, island hoping as possible.
    30% - Pomarj Campaign, allied with the P of Ulek
    20% - Reserve (Homeguard)

    As soon as the Pomarj was reclaimed, the Duke of Gradsul's forces would redeploy to the Hold. I am estimating that 30% of Keoland's forces are, in fact, the Duke of Gradsul's, who maintains a substantially larger military profile than might be deemed necessary.
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    Tue May 24, 2005 11:33 pm  

    Quote:
    Movement into the Hold of the Sea Princes - a difficult overland campaign, coupled with the need for four island hoping amphibous landings - will keep the Keolanders well occupied short of the Amedio for some time to come.


    We are talking about 50 years down the line. That is more than enough time to reclaim Geoff, Sterich, Bissel, the Pomarj, and the Hold of the Sea Princes, and move on to new things. While Kimbertos is not Tavish the Great, Tavish managed his conquests in 11 years. I'm sure Kimbertos, or his successor, wouldn't need to more than double that.

    Quote:
    The best part of Woesinger's scenario IMO is the "Tuflik Line," which would require Keolandish support. If the alternative would see Velunese troops instead of Keolanders, I think the Keolanders would be given pause and decide, like it or not, that they need to be in Ket. Ket dominated by Veluna would not be in the Lion Throne's interest, particularly if Bissel and the Gran March are Veluna's allies.


    And for historical reasons, that is the part I dissent most from.
    Tavish II and Luschan IV could not hold Ket. I don't Kimbertos or his successor trying.

    Your numbers for forces are fine - during the reclamation. After that, 20% can be left to hold the Thornward Line, 20% can expand in the Amedio at a leisurely pace, 30% can guard the western mountains, and 30% can remain as an internal reserve.
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    Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:47 am  

    Woesinger wrote:

    The Madhi certainly doesn't like the union of the Chakyik and the Witchqueen - especially since the nomads have started to raid northern Ekbir. However, his main focus is on Ket at the moment. That and the recovery of the Cup and Talisman of Al Akbar (anyone remember the passage in the LGG where the last king of the Valley Olve entrusted a sealed chest to the Grand Duke of Geoff before vanishing into the Crystalmists?)


    *bump*

    Too bad they can't use this in Living Greyhawk, it would make an interesting cross metaregional plotine :)

    Mike
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    Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:53 pm  

    Random brainstorms.

    - Invasion of githyanki, as in Paizo's Incursion plotline. They would target the Hellfurnaces first and foremost, where the illithids are, but need to secure the realms adjoining them (including the Yeomanry, Sea Princes, Amedio, and "Zahind"). Keoland is caught up in a losing war with the githyanki empire, and unable to interfere with...

    - One last, great assault by Iuz, this time without demonic allies, but with sorcerous shape-changers infiltrating every court, undead, abominable creations of the Boneheart, and the Ur-Flannae priests and druids warping nature to the Old One's will. The cambion's allies destroy Celene from within (the trees animating to kill elves), seize the Wild Coast, Greyhawk City (whose Oligarchy, thoroughly corrupted by Iuz for a decade, concedes the city willingly), the Cairn Hills, and the Orcish Empire of the Pomarj (which puts up the bravest front in the war, but ultimately is shattered). The Great Kingdom reunites with the in order to fight this threat, but loses battle after battle. At last, a party of adventurers infiltrates Iuz's court with Zuggtmoy's secret help and kill him with the Rod of Seven Parts. Iuz's spirit descends into the Abyss to Shedalakh where Zuggtmoy, who posesses his soul amulet, forces him to aid her in her war against Juiblex and the conquest of the surrounding layers. With Zuggtmoy firmly in control of his fate, Iuz is occupied for a long time.

    - The quest for the Rod of Seven Parts awakened the forces of Chaos, which distorted some of the landscape of the Flanaess. Most of the damage is minor or later reversed, with one significant exception: the Sea of Dust is now filled with fertile river valleys, once again blooming with vegetation. Magic in the region works strangely now. The githyanki have secured a good part of it.

    - Kas the Bloody-Handed returns through Tovag Baragu and, with the unwitting aid of a party of adventurers bearing the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar, destroys the stone circle to prevent Vecna from following him (thus inadvertantly preserving the renewed state of the Sea of Dust). He secures the allegiance of the Ur-Flannae and the Boneheart and, while he doesn't try to hold the majority of Iuz's bloated empire, prevents the northern territories from disintegrating.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:26 pm  

    If I wanted Greyhawk to be destroyed I would have followed the standard Gord novels route. After the Gord novels Gygax has not developed anything so you are free to do whatever you like with Greyhawk, under the constraints of the Gord novels.

    I conjecture that both settings, Gordian and established, can be played in one campaign. I conjecture that it is a technicality to unify the settings.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:29 am  

    Advancing the timeline is not a good idea as it serves to alienate those people who want a continuation of the current campaign timeline (which is the majority of GH players). This is a very real consideration.

    How to revitalize Greyhawk? Simply give it the attention that it should have had all along. Simply develop and publish material on all the geographical locations of the Flanaess. Five LGG-sized books each detailing the central, NW, SW, NE, and SE areas would suffice. Once that is done, you might begin to look beyond the Flanaess to the lands only hinted at if you wanted to do some expansion. Each such territory book would include, in addition to its LGG style entries for the various nations, such things as stats for the notable pc's in the area, stats for important organizations, and adventure locales. Published in tandem with each of these territory books would be a module (or series of modules) set in that area which would serve as an additional platform to detail some minor aspect of the territory while serving as a vehicle for players to learn more about the area through the adventures of the characters.

    Heightened immersion is the key here, which Living Greyhawk does on a small level with convention goers. Imagine getting this level of immersion into the homes of EVERY Greyhawk campaign worldwide without the exclusionary factor apparently intentionally built into the structure of Living Greyhawk ("Sorry. You live in the Nyrond area, nothing else other than that and "Core" stuff for you, you gutter snipe!").

    If you didn't want to (or couldn't) include very detailed info on organizations in the various territory books, you could have a book similar to those published for FR that details such groups. One big LGG-sized book ought to cover them pretty well.

    The last thing to do is support the current rules!!! This Greyhawk stuff GOES WITH the core stuff, and we can prove it be showing you something in the book that is substantially rules-based! That being said, those who play the older versions of the rules are sufficiently old enough/experienced enough to do their own conversions. Better yet, have older edition conversions as a web-enhancement (this is a great tool IMHO) for all those lazy buggers (the word "buggers" replaces a much less flattering word I would have rather used)! Sorry old rules players. Living in the past is not the way to advance Greyhawk into the future as a published product(unless of course licensing to use those old rules went along with the Greyhawk IP to a 3rd party publisher, or if such were sold to a new IP owner; neither of which is very likely at this time).

    And don't forget the miniatures! Yes, it would be an all-out onslaught of GREYHAWK goodness! You'd cry in joy as you pulled the money from your wallet every month, secure in the knowledge that you would have at least one Greyhawk release each month (even if only a few miniatures or a module). And even though you would be forced to live soley upon meals of top ramen with such exciting titles as "beef flavor" and "spicy shrimp", or the ultimate delicacy of having tiny bits of hot dog in your mac n' cheese, you'd be more than happy to do so to make up for your expenditure of cash on the vast amounts of Greyhawk that you have so very much longed for.

    Ah yes! I have a dream…
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    Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:51 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Advancing the timeline is not a good idea as it serves to alienate those people who want a continuation of the current campaign timeline (which is the majority of GH players). This is a very real consideration.

    How to revitalize Greyhawk? Simply give it the attention that it should have had all along. Simply develop and publish material on all the geographical locations of the Flanaess. Five LGG-sized books each detailing the central, NW, SW, NE, and SE areas would suffice. Once that is done, you might begin to look beyond the Flanaess to the lands only hinted at if you wanted to do some expansion.


    No thanks.

    Keep the same well trod time period? Give it Realmsian detail? Maybe after that think about something beyond "more of the same only in more detail?"

    I'll risk alienating timeline wonks.

    I think the idea that GH is this killer setting that only needs to be fully detailed is a conceit among a large number of GH fans that gives them comfort. Maybe, that was once true. It is no longer, IMO.

    Greyhawk has no definable identity beyond a grab-bag of designs accumulated over the years. Rather than try to pick and choose among them, IMO, the better course is to advance the timeline and, with a reverence for the appeal of many of the grab-bag elements, start over.
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    Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:09 am  
    Re: More on an Age of Exploration for the Flanaess

    Woesinger wrote:

    There's also the possibility that the rise of the Madhi and the belligerance of the Keoish has cut off trade with the Far West (Komal and beyond). So, just as in Europe, where the severing of the Silk Route by the Ottomans (among others) encouraged Europeans to seek alternate routes to the East, the sealing of the Fals Gap has had a similar effect on the Flanaess. In this case, you can see the cities of the Great Western Road (Thornward, Mitrik, Verbobonc, and Dyvers) going into decline as their trade in rare goods is cut off. Perhaps this is what encouraged the Gentry of Dyvers and the Knights of the Hart to make a play for Greyhawk and its trade links to the southern seas? Perhaps Velunese and Furyondian merchants are helping to bankroll the Watcher crusade in Ket, in return for access to markets and goods, in a vain attempt to compete with Ahlissan, Onnwalon, Keoish and Nyrondese trading costers, unloading shiploads of spices, rare woods and other exotica from the south?
    P.


    This is simply brilliant in fact with the exception of the 'monks in red pajamas' getting in the way I would imagine this is exactly what would have happened during the Greyhawk Wars and Kets short lived Bissel expansion.

    Once I finish my SCAP campaign maybe something like this will happen to encourage trade with the south and west of the Flanaess, I have been itching to encourage my players beyond the 'known lands'.
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    Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:07 pm  

    How to revitalize GH? Would not just good modules do?
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    Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:06 pm  

    I wouldn't quite give it Realmsian detail; probably just about 3/4 of the amount of 1e-2e detail that FR received.

    As to the timeline "wonks", a lack of consideration of the majority of players who make up a vast swathe of said timeline "wonks" is precisely the reason why game designers or very creative peolpe in general seldom should be palced in charge of making business decisions.

    Screw the majority! Gee, why aren't our books selling very well? Oh well, one print run was pretty good, eh? Nice working with you folks while it lasted, see you online once again for the forseeable future.

    Just say no to the self-fulfilling prophecy.

    People want Greyhawk to be published again, and more importantly to be published successfully, so part of the equation has to be that whoever is in charge of it must be at least somewhat willing to give the majority of people what they want, even if it is contrary to what they themselves personally want. For example, I think the placement of Vecna in the timeline is (putting it very nicely) too close to the present and not very well thought out, but I am willing the write within its confines. The people who may one day be in charge have to be prepared and willing to give a little.

    Do you want to write Greyhawk for one year and see it fold again due to a lack of consideration of what most people want, or do you want to write Greyhawk until you've worn out the keys on 1000 keyboards and actually speak Keoish fluently?

    Taking all of the above into consideration, I would want to see the campaign develop along a timeline, and Woesinger does have some very interesting ideas in that regard. Do not republish Greyhawk as a static rehashed campaign. Simply continue on from 595 CY and lead up to 600 CY, but with the option of expanding upon everything(incuding events) due to the abilty of publsiheing territorial books in an expanded format. there would finally be some real room to breathe some life into the campaign world both in its features and in the events that have been continuing to shape the world.

    And besides, like any medival-esque culture, those big even numbered years(like 600 CY) are rife for consiracies, omens, and other foretellings in a world like Greyhawk. It would be a shame to pass up the opportunity to make use of it.
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