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    Canonfire :: View topic - Yarth?
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    Yarth?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:31 pm  
    Yarth?

    I have heard it said that the Sagard series (4 books) by EGG is set on the Oerth parallel world of Yarth (which features Ratik, Tenh, Medegia, the Aerdi etc. plus a bunch of original material).

    Where exactly is this "Yarth" connection spelled out, if anyone knows? Book and page number would be appreciated.

    Thanks! Smile
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    GVD
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    Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:04 am  

    Weren't there even game books for Yarth? -Don't remember...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:41 am  

    Ivid wrote:
    Weren't there even game books for Yarth? -Don't remember...


    Maybe. Some say the Sagard game books are set on "Yarth." That is what I am trying to definitively track down.

    I have the PDFs of all four and searching for "Yarth," it does not appear. I just recently picked up the hardcopies, and looking over the front matter, back matter and covers, I see no mention of "Yarth." Yet, Moore and Mona have, in various venues, opined that the Sagard game books are set on Yarth. Neither has offered citation for this notion, however.

    Is the "Yarth connection" a GH "urban myth?" Did EGG mumble something in his sleep? Beats me. I'd like to pin this down for a project I'm working on.

    Any help is appreciated. Smile
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    GVD
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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:57 am  

    Well, I sorta stumbled onto this:

    http://www.the-underdogs.org/showbook.php?id=19

    Looks like you can download the 4 Sagard gamebooks for free. :-) They're a bit difficult to read the way they're formatted, but hey, they're free.
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    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:12 am  

    Thank you for reminding me of that great site, basiliv!
    Underdogs is indeed of of the bestn resources for classical gaming!

    Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:27 am  

    If anyone want hardcopies i have a spare set. Drop me a pm if you're interested. They are not too hard to get on ebay or amazon though...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:44 am  

    So GVD, are you trying to figure out where Yarth is from in general, or specifically the tie-in with Sagard?

    Either way, I'm no help. I think you've already corrected my mistaken impression of Aerth/Earth/Oerth/Yarth connections. Wink No bad blood at all, I just don't know, sorry.
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    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:05 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Ivid wrote:
    Weren't there even game books for Yarth? -Don't remember...


    Maybe. Some say the Sagard game books are set on "Yarth." That is what I am trying to definitively track down.

    I have the PDFs of all four and searching for "Yarth," it does not appear. I just recently picked up the hardcopies, and looking over the front matter, back matter and covers, I see no mention of "Yarth." Yet, Moore and Mona have, in various venues, opined that the Sagard game books are set on Yarth. Neither has offered citation for this notion, however.

    Is the "Yarth connection" a GH "urban myth?" Did EGG mumble something in his sleep? Beats me. I'd like to pin this down for a project I'm working on.

    Any help is appreciated. Smile


    I heard this rumour, too... Maybe one can post the question to EGG in person at ENWorld? *Certainly not me, I am too shy...*

    Cool
    CF Admin

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:30 pm  

    IIRC, Roger Moore's index mentions the relationship between the Sagard books and GH:

    Quote:
    Sagard the Barbarian Gamebook #1: The Ice Dragon (Gary Gygax, Flint Dille; 1985)
    Sagard the Barbarian Gamebook #2: The Green Hydra (Flint Dille, Gary Gygax; 1985)
    Sagard the Barbarian Gamebook #3: The Crimson Sea (Gary Gygax, Flint Dille; 1985)
    Sagard the Barbarian Gamebook #4: The Fire Dragon (Flint Dille, Gary Gygax; 1986)

    Four multiple_plot "Hero's Challenge" books about a barbarian youth named Sagard, whose world (Yarth) bears some geographical similarities to Oerth's Flanaess, in the region around Ratik, the Frost Barbarians, and the Solnor Ocean (see maps in various books). Magic and technology both work on Yarth. See reference to Yarth in POLYHEDRON issue #21, page 9. Series published by Archway Paperbacks (Pocket Books).

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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:34 am  

    basiliv wrote:
    So GVD, are you trying to figure out where Yarth is from in general, or specifically the tie-in with Sagard?


    I'm working on a "multiversal map" of Greyhawk's "dimensional reality." I think GH is unique in that it has "other selves." There is not only a "multiverse" but mulitiple dimensions. Gygax identified 5 "other selves" - Earth, Oerth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth. The first four of these five have been directly described. The fifth - Uerth - remains (perhaps) more mysterious. In addition to these "other selves," there are a number of "connections" that are not planes of one sort or another and yet not entirely full "other selves." They appear more as "dimensions." I am attempting to document all of the interrelationships among these various "places," generally, and then with specific reference to where two or more "dimensions" touch. When complete, I hope to have a "dimensional map," just as there are "planar maps." Secondarily, I hope to address whether any of this "practically" matters, might matter or should/could matter in a GH campaign. I want to have a clear "Gygaxian canon" picture of the basics before moving on to canon works by other authors. The specific reference to Yarth was eluding me. Now that this is cleared up, I can more confidentially move beyond the "Gygax ring of canon." Thanks to everyone for help finding the pedigree for Yarth! Smile
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    GVD
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    Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:12 pm  

    GVD, I'm picturing that you'll end up with a map like the one from Time Bandits, in the end :D

    Don't forget that various other Primes, planes, etc. link to Oerth as well: Khalibruhn, Jim Ward's Dragonworld campaign, and Gaxmoor (from Luke and Ernie's Troll Lords module), for example.
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:31 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I'm working on a "multiversal map" of Greyhawk's "dimensional reality." I think GH is unique in that it has "other selves." There is not only a "multiverse" but mulitiple dimensions. Gygax identified 5 "other selves" - Earth, Oerth, Aerth, Yarth, Uerth.


    I would be interested in seeing this.

    GVDammerung wrote:

    Secondarily, I hope to address whether any of this "practically" matters, might matter or should/could matter in a GH campaign.


    In my campaign it is of practical importance. I postulate that normal people have their "soul" or "essence" divided between many different simulataneous existences in different worlds. True gods, however, have only one true and undivided essence. Thus, part of the process of divine ascension is finding your other world selves and eliminating or incorporating them until just one unified essence remains.

    I am told this is similar to the plot line in Jet Li's movie, _The One_, but I haven't seen it. My idea was based on a ST:NG episode, where Worf is slipping between parrallel dimensions.

    As it relates to Greyhawk, one of the tasks Zagig had to perform for his Ascension was locating his other selves on Earth, Aerth, Yarth, and Uerth and incorporating their power. (That assumes that the god was originally from Oerth - it is possible that the god of Oerth was actually a mage from another world who bested Oerth's mage - the God would now exist as the same entity in all the worlds).

    Iuz did the same. In fact, IMC the creatures in the Soul Husks caverns are other versions of Iuz from these other worlds. When the PC's get high enough level to explore the Caverns, they may try to free these other Iuzes and return them to their home worlds as a way to weaken the Iuz of Oerth. But then they will be up against the forces of the other world who don't want their Iuz back! For example, a Yarthian Circle of Eight might send adventurers to oppose the PC's plans, because they don't mind Iuz the demi-god conquering Oerth as long as it keeps the cambion Iuz of Yarth away from his home world.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:28 am  

    grodog wrote:
    GVD, I'm picturing that you'll end up with a map like the one from Time Bandits, in the end :D

    Don't forget that various other Primes, planes, etc. link to Oerth as well: Khalibruhn, Jim Ward's Dragonworld campaign, and Gaxmoor (from Luke and Ernie's Troll Lords module), for example.


    Hi Grodog,

    Can you recommend published resources for the campaign worlds of what I'll call "The Gygax Circle?"

    I've got Gaxmoor but must confess not to have read it too closely to this point. I've got the original Garden of the Plantmaster, as well, but I'm not recalling a direct reference to Khalibruhn - just the "Lost City of the Elders." Is there a published guide to Khalibruhn? Did Dragonworld ever see print? I'd like to include all of the "The Gygax Circle," secondary to EGG's work, but I am uncertain as to published sources to campaign work from/for Kuntz and Ward.

    So far, the map (just my inartful sketching) does look something like an astrogolocal chart or an interstellar shipping chart. With notations scribbled all over. Shocked

    Kirt wrote:
    I would be interested in seeing this.

    In my campaign it is of practical importance. I postulate that normal people have their "soul" or "essence" divided between many different simulataneous existences in different worlds. True gods, however, have only one true and undivided essence. Thus, part of the process of divine ascension is finding your other world selves and eliminating or incorporating them until just one unified essence remains.

    I am told this is similar to the plot line in Jet Li's movie, _The One_, but I haven't seen it. My idea was based on a ST:NG episode, where Worf is slipping between parrallel dimensions.

    . . .

    Iuz did the same. In fact, IMC the creatures in the Soul Husks caverns are other versions of Iuz from these other worlds.


    Hi Kirt,

    When I finish, I would probably look for a way to "pretty it up" before posting it but I would definitely be interesting in posting so people could comment, as I may miss some dimensions or connections.

    I like your idea, particularly with respect to Iuz' soul husks, and it does sound kind of like The One, which is not a bad movie. Your idea is the best I have heard for the Soul Husks, in fact.

    My thought with respect to "mattering" is to look for "canon overlaps" between the dimensions and extrapolate from there and then to imagine things further.

    For whatever reason, dimensional (as distinct from planar) travel (and chronomacy, distinct from both) fascinate me. Lieber's Bazaar of the Bizarre was always my favorite Fafhrd and Grey Mouser story and Odd Alley is my favorite Gygax story. Smile
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    GVD
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    Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:52 pm  

    Hey GVD,

    Do you include Khensit and Erde as well?

    Happy

    Rafael
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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:01 am  

    Ivid wrote:
    Hey GVD,

    Do you include Khensit and Erde as well?

    Happy

    Rafael


    Hi Ivid,

    I think I will have to include Erde as Castle Zagyg will be "set" there in some fashion, as I understand it. I really don't want to include Erde because I don't find what I know of it very compelling but I'll wait to read Castle Zagyg and will include it, if there is an Erde connection.

    I am not immediately familiar with Khensit? What is this? It sounds Egyptian.
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    GVD
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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:35 pm  

    Another thing to include is whether there is a parallel time flow between the different worlds. At least for Oerth and Earth, you should be able to get three points in time and so establish whether the two are connected in linear or other fashion.

    That is, take the time of death of the Earth St. Cuthbert and tie it to the appearence of the Cuthbert avatar among the Oeridians,

    Take the Greyhawk date for the Dragon module and tie it to the apparent Earth date in the same module, (the one where PC's go to a museum to recover the Mace of Cuthbert), and

    take the current Earth date and tie it to the current Oerth date,

    and see whether time is passing linearly (one Oerth year = 1 earth year) or at some other rate, faster, slower, etc.
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    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:56 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Ivid wrote:
    Hey GVD,

    Do you include Khensit and Erde as well?

    Happy

    Rafael


    Hi Ivid,

    I think I will have to include Erde as Castle Zagyg will be "set" there in some fashion, as I understand it. I really don't want to include Erde because I don't find what I know of it very compelling but I'll wait to read Castle Zagyg and will include it, if there is an Erde connection.

    I am not immediately familiar with Khensit? What is this? It sounds Egyptian.


    I am also in doubt if Erde deserves really to put in a WoG plane map... Although it is a decent setting I am having a lot of fun with, I think it's too much to celebrate it as *the new Greyhawk*, as it sounds sometimes...

    Khensit is the setting for EGG's necropolis, and IIRC, was originally meant to be Oerth's Erypt. While I never played there, I think for you Greyhawk scholar it could be worth a look. Wink Don't know more about it than that it was recently released by NG...

    Smile
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