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    Canonfire :: View topic - Suel Lich converted to 3.5e!
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Suel Lich converted to 3.5e!
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    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

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    Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:54 pm  
    Suel Lich converted to 3.5e!

    Well I finished the basic version of the Suel Lich for 3.5e.

    I kept things as close to the original as possible.

    It can either be found in the Downloads section here under Monsters and Races or at the following link http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan/conversions/suellich.html

    Tell me what ye think.
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    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 03, 2005
    Posts: 11


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    Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:05 am  

    Good work, I was waiting for someone to make a conversion since i'm too lazy to do mine and too critical about my work to post it here. The only comment I have is about the magic items you give your example NPC, they are quite strong, too much for me to handle. The thing is you do give your 3e conversion of GH characters too much power in the form magic items. I think it is a problem considering that Greyhawk is a setting that has a fair amount of magic items but not as much as Faerun or Zakhara. It is true that with the Epic level handbook we see quite often NPC's that are using items that go above the +5 bonus but then those are legendary items, almost artifacts. Yeah those characters are Epic, it is a fact. But then there is no reason that they should be equipped with the best items possible for their class. But for now i'm not discussing about your suel lich 3.5 which is the main subject of the post and done well enough to get my criticisms back in their pandora's box. But then if you wish to discuss the theme of too much powerful magic items then maybe we could open up a topic on that... Good work, we need more dedicated DM's like you !
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

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    Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:31 am  

    The nice part about magic items is they are the one part of an NPC you can change easily. If you don't find them to your liking change them or lower them down or up to your liking.

    The reason this guy got so many is b/c he has the Craft Wondrous Item which means he can spend xp and money to make his own, and also consider is age. He could very well be over a thousand years olf for all we know, and the things he's ran across from the Suloise Empire may blow our minds. But alas, any charged items he might have once had are probably gone forever, b/c he doesnt have the required Craft skills to make more. =/

    Anyway, thanks for the review. =)
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2584
    From: Ullinois

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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:11 am  

    Great conversion dude. After reading it I suddenly realized I have no idea where the Suel Lich originated from source-wise. But regardless of that I have a question. Your example shows that Suel Liches are of the pre-cataclysm Suel Empire. Is it my imagination or wasn't Vecna the first Lich and as such no Suel would've been granted that state until after the cataclysm? This is obviously wrong or easily worked around, I'm just looking for clarity on the origins of this brand of lich. What made Suel liches different than Flan liches (which I now assume are the basic variety).
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:01 pm  

    I see Vecna as the first grand lich or the first to use a phylactery rather than requiring fresh bodies at regular intrevals (as the Suel Lich does).

    Now, you could have it that they Suel Liches came after the cataclysm but for flavor value its more interesting to have them be the first lich template, as it builds towards Vecna's rise to be the first full lich.

    As for the resource it was one of the Monster Manual Annuals from 2e. I can't recall the one at the moment but I remember him from there. =)
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 464
    From: Ithaca, New York

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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:27 pm  

    Great work!

    Cheers!
    Nell.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    From: Ohio

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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:30 pm  

    thanks Nellsir, Frozenblaze and Mort. I appreciate the feedback! =)
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    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Novice

    Joined: Dec 17, 2004
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    From: Bat Country

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    Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:57 pm  
    Suel Lich

    Awesome. I personally love the Suel and this template adds to the flavor of any high-powered NPC, especially Scarlet Brotherhood-related.
    One comment to add on the magic items- as far as I know in 3.5e the highest "enhancement" +x number you can have on any one item is +5, anything additional has to be a special quality, i.e. flaming, vorpal, fire-breathing-chicken bane, etc.[/quote]
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    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:06 pm  

    Well there are items in the Epic Level Handbook (artifacts mostly) that go above a +5 enchancement bonus but making or getting these is extremely difficult. And should they fall into lower level hands than an epic lvl, I'd have the enchancement bonus laced to the epic character so an non-epic would only be wielding at best a +5.
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    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 15, 2002
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    From: Seattle

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    Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:41 am  

    The first reference to the Suel Lich that I recall is from Poly #101.
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    ~basiliv

    I didn't design the world,
    I merely facilitated its creation
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
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    Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:28 pm  

    Except that the sample character is seriously overloaded with treasure, looks good. A couple of points:

    Where did the +15 hit points come from?

    Special Weakness is not a category of any type. Its weakness should be in the Special Qualities section.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:02 pm  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    Except that the sample character is seriously overloaded with treasure, looks good. A couple of points:

    Where did the +15 hit points come from?

    Special Weakness is not a category of any type. Its weakness should be in the Special Qualities section.


    Firstly, I explained that if you didnt like the treasure above CHANGE IT. Plz read that. If you think he's a little overloaded maybe you should look at the old 1e -2e mage NPC's of Greyhawk. Almost all are heavy on magic items. Also, the guy is OLD, very OLD he's had time to build himself up. The magic he had access to predates the current NPC's access by over 900 years.
    Prime examples of overloads as you call them - Lyzandred, Mordenkainen, Rary, Jaran Krimeah.
    GH is NOT the magic item stone age, its not even low magic.
    Sorry if I seem to be going off on a rant here, this is not a knock on anyone, but thats one of pet peeves. =/

    Secondly, good call you found a mistake there for me. Somehow the Feats section is missing. ACK! Fixing that as I type here. (k fixed that part.) The reason he had +15 (which was a mistake should be 14) was b/c he has the Improved Toughness and Toughness Feats.
    Also Special Weakness is under Special Qualities its in bold so that the DM makes a note of it. Its not something you see everyday. =)
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:05 pm  

    Duicarthan wrote:
    Firstly, I explained that if you didnt like the treasure above CHANGE IT. Plz read that. If you think he's a little overloaded maybe you should look at the old 1e -2e mage NPC's of Greyhawk. Almost all are heavy on magic items. Also, the guy is OLD, very OLD he's had time to build himself up. The magic he had access to predates the current NPC's access by over 900 years.
    Prime examples of overloads as you call them - Lyzandred, Mordenkainen, Rary, Jaran Krimeah.
    GH is NOT the magic item stone age, its not even low magic.
    Sorry if I seem to be going off on a rant here, this is not a knock on anyone, but thats one of pet peeves. =/


    But this is a conversion to 3.5. The amount of treasure a creature has is tied to its CR; extra items require an increase in CR.

    As it stands, this is a CR 15 creature, so it is an EL 15 encounter. An EL 15 encounter maxes out at 22,000 gp. This is inline with the intent of xp awards; 13-14 encounters of appropriate level nets not only the experience required but the treasure intended for the next level.

    Another way to look at this is creating the example as an ECL 16 NPC (11th level Wiz + 5 LA template). In this case, the character qualifies for 77,000 gp, but players should not gain more than 22,000 for defeating him (as a CR 15 creature) due to the above design conceit.

    But, the sample character has 116,000 gp worth of possessions before counting the value of his spellbook, at 100 gp per page for all spells above the free 22 for leveling.

    This is not a simple matter of campaign flavor, it is disconnect from the rule system's design philosophy. For a general purpose monster/NPC, the default rules should be followed or a disclaimer posted.

    For a baseline creature, I would recommend a ring of counterspells, +1 ring of protection, +3 bracers of defense, +2 cloak of resistance and a +2 headband of intellect. This is 23,000 gp, so it's still 1000 gp plus the spellbook value over the normal limit.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:19 pm  

    Magic Items removed completely from this template, make your own as you see fit.

    CR 15 = 200,000gp totals so do as you will. I use what a Character can get b/c basically, the PC's have like 10x's the gear this guy does by the time they reach him. Even though he's like years older. Whats the point in starting combat then anyway when its a garaunteed victory for them. Might as well hand out the free treasure and exp's.
    _________________
    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:33 am  

    I have always found Suel Liches fairly uninspired, they always just seemed like a rip off of the Dragonlance character Fistandantalus to me...
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