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    Canonfire :: View topic - Lortmils
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    Lortmils
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:58 am  
    Lortmils

    I am wondering about peoples feelings about the Lortmils and adjacent areas.

    Certainly, this is the demi-human (even humanoid) "capital" of the Flanaess. Arguably, it is the most "Tolkienesque" area of the Flanaess, with the Lortmils standing in for the Misty Mountains.

    As written, the Lortmils seem to have been somewhat "sanitized" in the Hateful Wars, with the humanoids pushed into the Pomarj.

    I'm working on imagining the Lortmil region and would enjoy hearing how others see the Lortmils and to what use they may have put them to in a campaign in terms of defining the area's character.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:33 pm  
    The Five Armies

    Well, I see them as very much like the Appalachain Mountains... green versus rugged rock. Not a lot of snow covered peaks.

    As to the Huminoids. I agree that this area is in many ways reminiscent of Tolkien. However, cleansed seems to be a fairly relevent term. I think that the area could be compared to the Misty Mountains after the Battle of Five Armies. The goblins and orcs have either been shifted into the Pomarj, or sent into their deeper holes.

    But the refusal of Celene to engage the world, and the constant pressure on the Uleks, combined with the over committment of the Gran March army throughout the region does not bode well. I cannot imagine that the March and surrounding nations would not start seeing an increased huminoid prescence, and soon. Raids, destruction, general mayhem.

    And saying they are cleansed is easy, but the participating nations are not completely sure that they have found all the valleys in the Lortmils, much less cleansed them.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:45 pm  

    IIRC, the Lortmils were also the site of some of the earliest attempts at civilization by the Flan, at the lost city of Haradaragh... sort of the Machu Pichu of the Flaeness.

    I have always imagined that the humanoids who were driven into the Lortmils during the Hateful Wars took refuge in the ruins of the Flan city(ies) there, and gathered their strength for their assault on the then-independent petty Suel kingdoms of the Pomarj.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:54 pm  

    Here are some Lortmil statistics I've worked out:

    Chance of Encountering Dangerous Monsters
    (derived from 1E Dungeon Masters Guide & Greyhawk Glossography)

      Humanoid . . . . . . . . 6%
      Giant . . . . . . . . . . . 3%
      Ogre . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
      Troll . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
      Undead . . . . . . . . . . 1%
      Will-o-wisp . . . . . . . 1%
      Worg . . . . . . . . . . . 1%
      Lycanthrope . . . . . 3/4%
      Bugbear . . . . . . . . 1/2%
      Dragon . . . . . . . . . 1/2%
      Gargoyle . . . . . . . . 1/2%
      Wind walker . . . . . . 1/2%
      Displacer beast . . . . 1/4%
      Dragonne . . . . . . . . 1/4%
      Leucrotta . . . . . . . . 1/4%

      Total . . . . . . . . . . 17 1/2%

    While the Lortmils may not be completely "sanitized", I'd say having only a 17 1/2% chance of a hostile encounter is pretty good. Hell, New York City is more dangerous than that. . . .
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:20 pm  

    It's late so I will keep it short...

    Remember unlike other Demi-human battles where the humanoids escape and over time recover the Lortmil were subject to a sustained organized "genocidal" effort above and below ground on a scale never seen again.

    So humanoids within the Lortmils should be exceeding rare, small hidden scavenger bands at most, can't see how lost "cities" could have escaped detection given the lengths the demi-humans employed.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:32 am  
    Lost Cities

    Well... Esmerin did, and the ruins of others are not widely known, so I would think that the hunimoids still have a few hidey holes. So, if there are say, 30,000 left in the Lortmils (a microscopic number considering the sheer area) and they double every 20 years, there could be over a quarter million there now. If they have more than 4 offspring (and for goblins, this seems reasonable), then it could be more.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:35 pm  

    True, anyone can place any population figure on humanoids, but just because the demi-humans aren't on a genocidal rampage anymore doesn't mean that they have allowed the humanoids "carte blanche".

    I am sure patrols and even larger groups have dealt with any humanoid bands the have happened to come across.

    Not to mention the brutal realities of internal humanoid life and the need to raid for goods and provisions all are dangerous activities.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:24 pm  
    good points

    Those are certainly good points. I suppose it is a preference issue. Since the GH Wars, IMC, we are assuming that there is little cooperation with Celene, and the Uleks are restrained. This is allowing the huminoids to recover some numbers.

    As always, their innate brutality and internal strife prevent them from taking over. IMC, they are just becoming a concern, and only years of apathy will allow them to return to their former strength.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:30 pm  

    I think we agree, perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly enough.

    I see the humanoids of the Lortmils just beginning to recover their strength but still fearful, relatively weak and still in hiding.

    Certainly not having several strongholds or capable of openly challenging the surrounding nations.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:23 am  

    Crag wrote:

    Remember unlike other Demi-human battles where the humanoids escape and over time recover the Lortmil were subject to a sustained organized "genocidal" effort above and below ground on a scale never seen again.


    The only victims of genocide were the humanoids that didn't flee into the Pomarj. Enough did flee there that the human communities were displaced or destroyed, so that suggests quite a few displaced humanoids.

    And if you're drawing a comparison between the Lortmils and the dwarfholds of middle earth, remember that those networks run very deep. It is highly possible that the cleansing armies missed some of the deeper or harded to access strongholds. It has also been about a century since those wars, so it's likely that some of the humanoids have begun wandering back into their old territories, or seizing new ones from areas that were cleaned up during the Hateful Wars but then not defended well afterward.
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    Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:37 pm  

    It seems greatly irresponsible that the demi-humans drove the humanoids to the Pomarj then stopped. Why not drive them completely to the sea? I suppose the terrain of the Pomarj gave the humanoids room to spread out and hide, but then again the Lortmils are vast as well. Was the goal to contain them?...also by creating the hell hole of the Pomarj, the demihumans are indirectly responsible for the safe formation of the Slavelords, Turrosh Mak and who knows what other evils. Then again such power groups would have happened eventually anyways but then they'd be the Sheldomar's problem instead of GHC's wouldn't they? Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:41 am  

    The Lortmils have not until recently been much of a major feature IMC, but I recently set the adventure "Forge of Fury"(which I altered and expanded) in the Lortmils(just south of Courwood a few hexes) as an old dwarven hold long fallen to the humanoids. The PC's were sent there to acquire any weapons or armor to be found in the ancient smithies and hidden vaults therein and return these to the forces of Safeton to aid in their defense, and to provide further arms to the dwarves of the Lortmils(as dwarves prefer to only use dwarf-made arms and armor Wink ).

    With the rise of Turrosh Mak, I have increasingly made humanoid raids a daily part of life in the Lortmils and in the Welkwood also. One such Welkwood raid featured the debut of Gorrg Elfslayer, who led the main part of the raid. Gorrg has since featured as the nemesis of a few of the PC's.

    Turrosh Mak has directed the humanoids under his thumb towards outside enemies and doesn't much tolerate infighting (unless it is between potential usurpers). Consequently, as the GH Wars come to a close, the fact that the Principality of Ulek pretty much only exists west of the Lortmils and that the humanoids have gobbled up most of the Wild Coast (leaving nearly half of the coastline of Wooly Bay in their hands), this allows the humanoids to think about giving a little payback to the elves and dwarves who drove them from their mountain lairs during the Hateful Wars.

    I picture the Hateful Wars as having been very thorough in its destruction of the humanoids within the Lortmils. I imagine Elven hippogriff/griffon riders having patrolled for humanoid settlements nestled in deep valleys or holed up in ancient Flan ruins. The dwarves went about checking out every hole in the ground that they could find for any humanoids that might be there. Does this mean that every single humanoid lair was found and put to the sword? I think not. While I do not picture the Lortmils to be anywhere near to riddled with hidden humanoid lairs, I do imagine a few of them still lurking about here and there; mostly deep underground.

    With the humanoid invasions of the Ulek States, the Wild Coast, and the Welkwood, I see these hidden humanoid lairs being a bit more brazen in launching raids against human and demi-human communities in the Lortmils and surrounding areas while most of the armed forces from these settlements are away fighting in the GH Wars. Those returning home from the GH Wars might find their families dead, or simply gone, and perhaps even whole communities wiped out.

    And so it goes...
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:40 am  

    The demi-humans excised humanoids from the Lortmils by following the "Low Road", the major underground tunnel artery that linked the main humanoid settlements.

    Several things come to mind:
    1) the demihumans likely do not have the population to inhabit the abandoned settlements, so most of them have probably been destroyed or sealed off (via walls of stone and iron).
    2) the Low Road is an obvious area to focus patrols and wardens, so dwarven & gnomish presence is likely still high along the Low Road, but greatly reduced or eliminated elsewhere.
    3) In comparison, surface access to the lower caverns is scattered and far more difficult to effectively ward (not to mention find). Humanoids may well be filtering back into "sealed" cities from the surface, but only in small numbers. One limiting factor is knowledge -- humanoids are marked by their relatively short lifespan, and after several generations in the Pomarj, most simply don't know where their "ancestral" home is, let alone the secret entrances.
    4) Rather than large settlements of humanoids, then, I think the current Lortmil more likely houses small, reclusive bands, numerous undead in the abandoned and overrun cities, and a large percentage of solitary or family group monsters likely to be squatting in ruins, like manticores, young dragons, leucrotta, etc., etc.

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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:13 am  

    For a campaign I'm starting, I've started to imagine the underdark of the Lortmils, much along the lines Nellisir set out and in line with many of the posters here.

    I've split the Lortmils underdark into 4 "layers" and imagine that the humanoids have begun to repopulate the near surface areas and the "Low Road." I'm imagining that the humanoids will have difficulty repopulating the Lortmil underdark much as the dwarves have trouble policing it - the underdark here is haunted.

    The Hateful Wars, I think, left numerous undead and unquiet spirits that still haunt the underdark. I'm also thinking of having the dwarves have "released" something, ala Moria, and following the "Misty Mountains" analogy.
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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:17 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    It seems greatly irresponsible that the demi-humans drove the humanoids to the Pomarj then stopped. Why not drive them completely to the sea? I suppose the terrain of the Pomarj gave the humanoids room to spread out and hide, but then again the Lortmils are vast as well. Was the goal to contain them?...also by creating the hell hole of the Pomarj, the demihumans are indirectly responsible for the safe formation of the Slavelords, Turrosh Mak and who knows what other evils. Then again such power groups would have happened eventually anyways but then they'd be the Sheldomar's problem instead of GHC's wouldn't they? Wink


    The goal was primarily revenge for the death of Queen Yolande's consort. The goal was to get them out of areas controlled by elves, and to a lesser extent, dwarves. Yolande really didn't care (or if you want to be kind, think) that human communities would be displaced by the wars.

    However, had nothing been done, and the humanoids remained in the Lortmils I don't think you'd have seen the Slavelords rise in the Sheldomar valley. The proximity of the sea is a major contributing factor to the Slavelord's succes for several reasons: access to supply (slaves) is greatly enhanced, access to markets is even greater, and the Pomarj created circumstances that brought the Slavelords together as an organized effort. Turrosh Mak is the only Slavelord with humanoid blood, the rest are primarily human.

    Still, perhaps the unintended consquences of the Hateful Wars are part of why Yolande won't budge out of Celene. Having seen what has happened in the past when she intervenes outside her borders, perhaps she is concerned that a broader effort on the part of the elves in world affairs would simply create more unintended consequences.

    Theala
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    Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:16 pm  

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:

    Still, perhaps the unintended consquences of the Hateful Wars are part of why Yolande won't budge out of Celene. Having seen what has happened in the past when she intervenes outside her borders, perhaps she is concerned that a broader effort on the part of the elves in world affairs would simply create more unintended consequences.

    Theala


    Now here is an interesting thought Shocked

    Especially given Elven longevity, the hateful wars aren't ancient history like they are for humans and too a lesser degree for the dwarves.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:05 am  

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:

    Still, perhaps the unintended consquences of the Hateful Wars are part of why Yolande won't budge out of Celene. Having seen what has happened in the past when she intervenes outside her borders, perhaps she is concerned that a broader effort on the part of the elves in world affairs would simply create more unintended consequences.


    That's a fair point! It's likely that the Olve suffered a fair number of losses in the Hateful Wars - which, given their low birthrates take longer to recoup than, say, human losses of a similar size. That could be a major reason why Celene stayed out of the GH Wars. As far as they were concerned, the Olves had just fought one war and were being asked to jump straight into another one.

    Also, I have a theory about how olves look at war. I'd imagine, given their long term view of things, they'd be very slow to go to war (given how terrible wars are), but when they do decide to fight - they fight a total war. No half measures. No quarter. No mercy. They commit themselves entirely to the complete destruction of their enemy so that they will not have to fight that foe a second time.

    So - when Yolande refused to commit forces to the GH Wars, she was doing so because she didn't see the threats to her realm were sufficient to warrent the kind of total war that the olves fight. However, if the Pomarj continues to become a threat and the orcs and goblinkin rise again in the Lortmils - I do see Celene launching a second Hateful War - with the full intent that there won't be a third (either because the olve or their foes will no longer exist).

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    Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:18 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    the Olve suffered a fair number of losses in the Hateful Wars - which, given their low birthrates take longer to recoup than, say, human losses of a similar size.


    Not to nit pick, but this is an oft cited view that I don't hold to. IMO, Greyhawk Elves are just as robust and thriving as any race, and I've seen no direct evidence in canon to suggest that they are a slow breeding or declining race. Especially considering their life spans and likely communal nature, it's possible that elven parents could have many, dozens even, of childrin during their adult lives, sharing the duties of raising the children among the clan or village.

    The only races I see as really slow at reproduction rates and possibly diwindling in the Flanaess are Dwarves and Gnomes, given their comparitively low populations in the Flanaess. There's plenty of Elves and Halflings around, but Dwarves and Gnomes are somewhat uncommon.

    IMO, the apparent "retreat" to the Spindrift Isles was one of the worst canon developments to date, since it leads a lot of us, even me at times, to think of Elves in a Middle Earth or Forgotten Realms image of retreat from society and dwindling of influence. I'd rather Elves stay a vibrant part of the setting, albeit somewhat aloof as far as the affairs of Men.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:05 pm  

    There are some canon sources which infer that elves do not reproduce quickly. First, Monster Manual indicates that an elven community will include young equal to only 5% of the male population (1 young for every 20 adult males). Second, the Dungeon Masters Guide age categories indicate that gray elves are "Mature" (presumably of child-bearing age) from 251 to 650 years. Third, according to the Unearthed Arcana birth table, gray elves have families of one to six children, with an average of three.

    Working from those numbers, a gray elven mother will average three children over 400 years of child-bearing, thus giving birth once every 133 years. This indeed illustrates how difficult it is for Celene to recoup its losses. Even a handful of elven casualties can take centuries to replenish.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:46 pm  

    chatdemon wrote:
    Woesinger wrote:
    the Olve suffered a fair number of losses in the Hateful Wars - which, given their low birthrates take longer to recoup than, say, human losses of a similar size.


    Not to nit pick, but this is an oft cited view that I don't hold to. IMO, Greyhawk Elves are just as robust and thriving as any race, and I've seen no direct evidence in canon to suggest that they are a slow breeding or declining race. Especially considering their life spans and likely communal nature, it's possible that elven parents could have many, dozens even, of childrin during their adult lives, sharing the duties of raising the children among the clan or village.


    I'll have to respectfully disagree. The Monster Manual indicates olven reproductive rates as being very low given the small number of children in an elven community at any given time. Races of the Wild specifically says that elves are less fertile than humans, and don't begin reproducing until much later in life than their human counterparts. With a low birth rate, elves have to be careful about who they go to war with, because it takes them a very long time to recover the loss of life. Though not GH canon, The Complete Book of Elves also has this point of view.

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    Quote:
    IMO, the apparent "retreat" to the Spindrift Isles was one of the worst canon developments to date, since it leads a lot of us, even me at times, to think of Elves in a Middle Earth or Forgotten Realms image of retreat from society and dwindling of influence. I'd rather Elves stay a vibrant part of the setting, albeit somewhat aloof as far as the affairs of Men.


    Now on that we agree, for your reasons and for additional reasons. The takeover of the Spindrifts ruined the L series of adventures, made the whole exercise pointless. The whole point of the Elves taking over the Spindrifts is rather unclear--why those specific islands, so far from any other major elven community, surrounded by hostile humans? It doesn't make any sense.

    Theala
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    Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:33 am  

    The Elves taking over the Spindrifts is rather unclear...

    Their are hints, the Spindrifts were originally elven and considered sacred (tolkien sense) as a place of departure and rest.

    The elves allowed humans to settle but the Sehanine cult are cleansing the Isles, they see the permissive tolerance of the elven people causing the decline and death of the elven race and culture.

    Besides the culturally sacredness of the Spindrifts as an island chain they are defensible and isolated from the other cultures and races of the Flanaess.
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    Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:00 am  

    Crag wrote:
    The Elves taking over the Spindrifts is rather unclear...

    Their are hints, the Spindrifts were originally elven and considered sacred (tolkien sense) as a place of departure and rest.

    The elves allowed humans to settle but the Sehanine cult are cleansing the Isles, they see the permissive tolerance of the elven people causing the decline and death of the elven race and culture.

    Besides the culturally sacredness of the Spindrifts as an island chain they are defensible and isolated from the other cultures and races of the Flanaess.


    Well, true, but you could make that claim about a lot of areas of the Flanaess. And I find the paranoid racism of the Sehanine cult to be distasteful to say the least. I prefer to see elven culture as something elevated above the pettiness that is the norm for many human cultures. The view of the elves who took over the Spindrifts is too . . . . human . . . for my taste.

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    Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:26 pm  

    Personally I tend to hold Chatdemons view of Elves and carry it over to the other non-human races.

    I am frankly irritated that the Demi-humans are protrayed as 2nd class many times...why must they always fall into the stereo-typical noble ally mold.

    The elves have seen their forests shrink and time after time come to the aid of various humans and get a mere thank-you as human nations dominate, if I was a demi-human race I would be fed up.

    I see the Sehanine cult simply as saying enough is enough no more lofty ideals of goodness without tangible benefit, time to put our interests first.

    What's so disappointing about an assertive elven perspective or an aggressive demi-human stance for that matter.

    Their must be some demi-humans out there that are willing to demand a "place in the sun" for themselves instead of quietly going into the good night.
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    Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:22 pm  

    Well, as is spelled out pretty clearly in the 1st edition DMG, Gary specifically designed the rules and the campaign to be humanocentric because that suits him and his players. Add to that the tendency of many folks to base their elves and dwarves off tolkein, who obviously had a fading elder races view in the LotR (a lot fewer folks have read the Silmarillion, where the elder races rock...). So, it a pretty deliberate set up for greyhawk to have them be 'second class citizens' in a certain sense.

    However, humanocentric does not need to mean the elves, dwarves, etc are necessarily fading out and whatnot. The average birth rates of the demi humans is lower than humans, but that's largely a matter of longevity and economics. The birthrates of humans in stable, well off, healthy countries is noticably lower than that of humans in less fortunate places. There is no reason why elves and dwarves could not have a 'baby boom' if they suffered significant population loss from war or disease just like almost all other living things.

    Personally, I think humans "dominate" the world because that matters to humans in a way that it does not to the "elder races". And the elder races are less flexible in terms of where they are willing to live.

    Frankly, I see the dwarves as expanding over the last thousand years. IMC, the dwarves almost all lived in the extensive clanholds associated with their ancient high kingdom in the Crystalmists. When that was shattered, they spread out across the Flanaess and how have many, many more clanholds than in those ancient days.

    Elves, or at least the grey elves, have lost ground since the Twin Cataclysms. But depending on your opinion on the overall level of deforestation that's occurred, its not really clear that elves as a whole are shrinking. Sources generally portray GH elves as clannish and inclined to live in small communities, so the lack of big elvish cities and nations is hardly surprising. And the Sehanine nonsense (I agree its an awful concept) is fairly clearly highly controversial amongst the elves, so its easy to toss it off as the actions of a fruitcake elf sect.

    There is a lot of ways of looking at the existing material.
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    Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:36 am  

    Excellent post Vormaerin Smile

    However the sehanine cult is hardly a fruitcake elf sect though, their ultimate purpose is the reunification of the elven race something desired by many elves they just differ on the means to accomplish the goal.

    The sehanine cult simply advocates an agrressive approach which doesn't mean a reckless one (given elven longevity), they are prepared to use violence as a last resort but the sehanine cult is not a bloodthristy elven cult bent on racial purity and global domination similar to the creed of the SB.

    I see the sehanine cult as an RP gold mine and a useful catalyst for future elven development within GH.
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    Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:45 pm  

    Sehanine's faith itself is not a fruitcake cult, but this particular expression of it very well could be. Even with a "real" diety, faiths would not be monolithic. My issue with this particular concept is not with elves taking over the Lendore Islands or being aggressive. I just don't like adding the tolkein/forgotten Realms style "elven running away" concept to GH, which previously had been free of it.

    Btw, isn't one of the sehanine myths something to do with her whacko ideas leading to the sundering of the elves in the first place? I seem to recall that, but I'm not sure if it was fan material or something reasonably official. I don't use the race specific gods in my campaign so I didn't really pay much attention to it.
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    Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:01 pm  

    As Crag said, I see the demihumans of the Flanaess as very active, with modern Celene as a notable exception. The gnomes of the Kron Hills have certainly stuck up for themselves with Verbobonc. Sunndi and the dwarves of the Iron Hills have long been members of the Iron League (and still allies of the modern remnants). Then there's Dumathoin, the Ulek states...and the list goes on.

    Another thing, I've always thought of grey elves a bit differently. The 1st Ed Monster Manual says they "...live in isolated meadowlands...". I'm not sure why, but I've always read that as mountain meadows. I'm sure a lot of what follows is from the 1st issue of the OJ.

    IMC, the Crystalmists and modern Hellfurnaces were home to several Grey Elven cities (IMC, the Hellfurnaces were a lot less active prior to the RoCF). The Suel learned the basics of magic from the Faerie, then took it, ran with it, and twisted it to their own means. But this is one reason that ancient Suloise magic was so powerful. Many of the Faerie secrets they used have since been forgotten, traded in for faster, more easily accessible means to power.

    Anyway, as the Suel Imperium neared its heyday, they sought to conquer the olven cities, stealing their secrets, gaining slaves and riches, etc. While the grey elves resisted for a time, they soon realized that it would be easier to leave their mountain homes and head east into the Flanaess proper. Perhaps they thought to move into the other great elven cities of legend, not completely aware of the fate of each of them.

    All that background was simply to explain that the elves of Celene may have had more designs than simple revenge or genocide regarding the Hateful Wars. I think the Faerie longed to live in the mountains again. I've been toying with the idea of Celene constructing a new olven city in the Lortmils. This has been kept incredibly secret, with lucrative trade agreements worked out for local dwur clans who have helped a bit here and there...but most of all they're being paid for their secrecy until the city is completed. Since Celene is known for their hippogriff patrols (or is it griffons and I'm confusing it with GH?), siting the city from air would prove difficult.

    Oh yes, IMC Celene has a vested interest in keeping the Lortmils free from those pesky humanoids. Happy
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    Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:18 am  

    I'd like thoughts on an appropriate name for the underdark region beneath the Lortmils.

    Playing on the Hateful Wars - The Lost Dark?

    Playing on the "Lortmils" - The Lorr Dark?

    Playing on the "Lortmils," again - The Lore Dark?

    Playing on the demi-humans and their age - The Old Dark?

    Playing on the demi-humans and their age, again - The Olden Dark?

    Any other ideas or thoughts? All are welcome. Smile
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    Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:30 am  

    Why limit the name to "Something Dark"? That is fine for a generic description.

    Every race will probably have a different name for the area. Why not pick the race, perhaps Dwarfs, as your thematic starting point and go with what they would call it. I doubt they would use "Dark". "The Paterrootle" would translate into the place where the fathers dug with their noses. I know that sounds hokey, but it might get the ideas flowing.
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    Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:35 am  
    Light

    Hey, they cleansed them didnt they? Why not change the name to reflect that it is no longer so "Dark," either due to the oppresive lack of light, or the presence of evil. Why not the Honored Vaults, or the Hallowed Halls or something that differentiates it from that. Even if not true... for a few years in the 520s they thought it would be.
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    Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:48 pm  

    Personally, I'd lean toward a name that had nothing to do with the Hateful Wars. After all, we're only talking about 100 years(ish), and with the long lives of many denizens of the area this ain't nothin'.

    Renaming it would be fine, maybe even develop a ceremony to name it, honor those who died cleansing it, etc. But I'd also come up with a pre-Hater name. It's nice to reference such things in ancient texts, not just texts from this century.

    Unfortunately, if there's one thing I suck at it's naming stuff. For example, the following are the best I could come up with. Confused

    For a new name, how about something like Esmadan ("Esm-" from Esmerin, reflecting the optimism toward mutual cooperation in the future, and "-adan" just because I stole it from Dumadan and I was looking for the name of a dwur home)?

    For an old name, how about something like Deep Way?

    Er...
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    Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:14 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I'd like thoughts on an appropriate name for the underdark region beneath the Lortmils.

    Playing on the Hateful Wars - The Lost Dark?


    Too late. I've got dibs on that for the Suel Underdark.

    Quote:
    Playing on the "Lortmils" - The Lorr Dark?

    Playing on the "Lortmils," again - The Lore Dark?


    Hey, come on! Get your own ideas! I'm already using the Nyrdark/Neardark for the next underdark north of this one.... ;-)


    Anyways, the major thoroughfare beneath the Lormils is the Low Road (that's canon, from the LGG), so the Lowdark or the Low Halls would make sense to me. I think simpler names that people (readers) find suggestive of the Underdark are better than names that need to be explained to have any meaning.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:02 am  

    Kortuur'mezan Lortamerral Jeduur

    (The Sundry Halls of Many-Gemmed Lortamerral)

    Or Lortamerral if one is in a hurry.

    From which Lortmil is a human corruption.

    Question
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    Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:00 pm  

    Nellisir said:

    Quote:
    I think simpler names that people (readers) find suggestive of the Underdark are better than names that need to be explained to have any meaning.


    Yeah, good point. I vote for Low Road (or similar) as well -- I knew "Deep Way" sounded strangely familiar and yet still wrong...[/quote]
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    Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:05 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    I'd like thoughts on an appropriate name for the underdark region beneath the Lortmils.

    Playing on the Hateful Wars - The Lost Dark?


    Too late. I've got dibs on that for the Suel Underdark.

    Quote:
    Playing on the "Lortmils" - The Lorr Dark?

    Playing on the "Lortmils," again - The Lore Dark?


    Hey, come on! Get your own ideas! I'm already using the Nyrdark/Neardark for the next underdark north of this one.... ;-) .


    Agreed ::grumble:: Smile

    Nellisir wrote:
    Anyways, the major thoroughfare beneath the Lormils is the Low Road (that's canon, from the LGG), so the Lowdark or the Low Halls would make sense to me. I think simpler names that people (readers) find suggestive of the Underdark are better than names that need to be explained to have any meaning.
    Cheers
    Nell.


    basiliv wrote:
    Yeah, good point. I vote for Low Road (or similar) as well -- I knew "Deep Way" sounded strangely familiar and yet still wrong...


    I'm thinking The Low Road would to refer to a specific set of tunnels that is first beneath the surface but not the name for the entire Lortmil UD.

    Woesinger wrote:
    Kortuur'mezan Lortamerral Jeduur

    (The Sundry Halls of Many-Gemmed Lortamerral)

    Or Lortamerral if one is in a hurry.

    From which Lortmil is a human corruption.

    Question


    I like this general idea - that there are alternate names for the UD. Lortamerral I particularly like for say the most prominent Dwarven hold within the range from which the name Lortmil is derived.
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    Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:27 am  

    My thoughts are running to five "levels" to the Lortmil UD - still no "official" name ::grumble::

    1st - A mountain peak level - above ground inside multiple mountains' upper heights in the range - almost an "aerial dungeon" - still working out the details of this idea. Genesis - LoTR's great eagles. What if they had a "dungeon" environment?

    2nd - A cave level - a "shallow" level, immediately open to the surface, almost an "entry level." Genesis - Nellisir's "beginning dungeon" idea and the B2 Caves of Chaos concept.

    3rd - "The Low Road" - Here are the major workings of the dwarves, orcs, goblins etc. It was here the heavy fighting of the Hateful Wars really took place. Very haunted and echoing now.

    4th - A "deep" level - Smaller than any level but the "aerial dungeons." Very cramped, isolated, dark, damp, claustrophobic. This is where some races "retreated" during the Hateful Wars and may still be found. This is also the level where the dwarves when mining when they released "something." This is also the level where some underdark races would live/abide - Illithids, Cloakers, Grimlocks etc.

    5th - The Sunless Sea - This level is one of dark beaches and narrow shelfs of rock overlooking the deep waters that underlie all of Oerth's underdarks. Access is very limited.

    My thought is that there is a "secret history" to the Hateful Wars. The idea that it was a genocidal struggle between the demi-humans and humanoids is accurate but does not tell the entire story. That story has two big holes in it -

    (1) Why did the demi's suddenly go on a rampage? The death of some elf? Doesn't make it for me. SOMETHING had to set in motion elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings all going to war and going to _genocidal_ war.

    (2) Why did they stop before finishing the job? Sudden attack of conscience? Then the genocide was a "temporary" blood madness and now we've regained our senses are and are back to being good guys? Not buying it.

    Something more had to motivate the endeavour and something more had to stop the demi's from finishing the job in the Pomarj (which was once dwarven territory).

    Wars Beginning -

    My thought (classically) is that the dwarves released "something." "It" allied with or easily dominated the humanoids _and_ organized them through abject fear and terror. The "something" had to be stopped by itself and that it now made the humanoids a greater threat than they had ever been before sealed the deal. Elf, dwarf, gnome and halfling were all threatened and united. Humans were kept on the periphery as the demi's did not want the humans to realize or understand that there were "dark things" of which the demi's knew or had access to that might prompt the humans to see the demi's as a threat because of their "forbidden knowledge." Still working out details on the specifics.

    Wars End -

    The "something" that was released was contained or destroyed. The humanoids were never the _real_ enemy. A close call averted, the demi's went back home. Not everyone agreed but when the gnomes and halflings pulled out and the elves waivered, the alliance was broken. The dwarves could not take the Pomarj by themselves and they had been responsible for releasing "it" in the first place. No one had much cause to give their counsel to "finish the job" heed.

    Wars Return -

    The dwarves were right. The Alliance should have finished the job. "Something" is again stirring, this time in the Drachengrabs. The humanoids are scared stiff. Even _they_ don't want to see "something" rise again. But they can hardly ask the demi's for "help." (Or can they?) Making matters worse, evil humans in the Pomarj are becoming aware that "something" is going on and they are curious. The evil humans do not have any real idea of what the "something" is but they are curious and are beginning to nose around. The "Earth Dragon" has gone silent. The dwarves who are sensing something amiss or are aware of it go unheeded - "its just those warmongering dwarves who can't reclaim their own lost halls." If nothing is done, "it" will return and this time there will be human involvement and the full story of demi-human complicity will not be able to be concealed.

    Yolande knows the truth but she is lost to "it." "It" sings to her nightly. "It" has always sung to her since "its" first release. Where before she could fight "it," she can no longer. She is paralyzed and with her Celene. The "Fey Mysteries" is nothing but a cover for her behavior, cooked up by her increasingly worried courtiers, although there is a faction that actually _is_ pursuing The Fey Mysteries.

    Whereas the dwarves played a key role during the Hateful Wars and the elves have played the key role in the aftermath, new demi-human race now steps to the fore, as "it" stirs again. But their role is uncertain. A force for good, before they can confront "it," they must settle an internal struggle that has gone all but unnoticed by the wider world.

    Still roughing things out but the general direction my thoughts are running.
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    Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:53 am  

    Wow, excellent ideas GVD!!

    You really tie up several items I always considered a bit shaky as well. Absolutely gonna use this IMC.
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    Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:05 am  

    It sure does sound sweet!

    "Something" EpicHawk?
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    Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:21 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    It sure does sound sweet!

    "Something" EpicHawk?


    "Something" extremely "epic," indeed. In 3E terms, a CR of 30+ at the least.

    I'd like to see something that will scare the players silly. Not the PCs. The players. Which would necessitate some nice mechanical twists, with a good back story, some creepy delivery and a more or less novel creation in all. Not the usual suspects. I'm still puzzling. Smile
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    Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:55 pm  
    Wow

    Hey GVD,

    This sounds great, and could help us out a little on the history/story of Gran March. At the current time I am trying (among other projects) to construct the History of GM. Obviously this includes the Lortmils, or at least a large portion of it.

    In my understanding (and combining all the canon I can find that is related) the March did not participate per se. This is odd to me in that they a) have a vested interest, b) have a VERY martial tradition, and c) had allies that were directly involved.

    So, I have resolved it (in concept only at this point), that the March did participate, extensively, just not on the battle field. This may seem odd, but they realized right off that their cavalry was ill suited to the task. So, they offered support. Their troops would go and guard dwarf holds, passes, trade routes, etc. Missions that they could do to free up all the dwarven, gnome and halfling troops they could. They also used their considerable logistic ability and power, as well as their considerable annual food harvest to support the warring armies.

    As to your Idea of awakening something: This rings almost true IMO. How about they offended something. They struck back for one offense and created another so grave that it aggrivated the various humnoids. Maybe WWI would be a better model than the Balrog. Just a thought, though I know you were paying homage to the Progenitor.

    I have to say, I like the political complexity that recent threads such as this one are leading to. The only place in GH that I have seen this in the past is in Keoland, and it is not as developed as I would like to see it.

    Oh, and I despise the thought of Fading elves. I prefer the elves of the Similrillion also.
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    Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:46 pm  
    Re: Wow

    Anced_Math wrote:
    In my understanding (and combining all the canon I can find that is related) the March did not participate per se. This is odd to me in that they a) have a vested interest, b) have a VERY martial tradition, and c) had allies that were directly involved.

    So, I have resolved it (in concept only at this point), that the March did participate, extensively, just not on the battle field. This may seem odd, but they realized right off that their cavalry was ill suited to the task. So, they offered support. Their troops would go and guard dwarf holds, passes, trade routes, etc. Missions that they could do to free up all the dwarven, gnome and halfling troops they could. They also used their considerable logistic ability and power, as well as their considerable annual food harvest to support the warring armies.


    I don't like the "guarding" idea, as I think the demis would want to keep the "humans" out of the mountains while they fought their very open war, for very hidden reasons.

    The food support (weapons too), you mention is the better way to go, I think.

    I see the Hateful Wars as an almost uniquely demi-human/humanoid affair, with men not allowed too close. This one "was personal," as they say.
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