[This is a duplicate of my post on Dragonsfoot, for those of you who (like me) read both forums.]
Help me out here. I am firmly in the camp that Hazendel must be a half-elf. While never expressly stated in "Gygaxian canon", look at the guy's levels! He's a cleric 5 / fighter 8 / magic-user 8. Is it just a coincidence that those are the Players Handbook level limits for half-elves? Were he a full elf, his limits would be 7/7/11. Nonetheless, in his -- ahem -- later incarnations, he is portrayed as a gray elf. There is a wealth of "new canon" background material depicting Hazendel having served as Olvensteward of the South since before the crowning of the Overking -- nearly 600 years!
Furthermore, in these same products, he is listed as a CG cleric of Trithereon. As ScottyG and I recently concurred in the alignment thread, the "regime alignment" of Sunndi is N(G). How, then, is its ruler CG?
My Hazendel is an aged NG half-gray elven C/F/MU 5/8/8, serving Lydia. My reasoning is as follows:
The listed levels strongly imply that he is a half-elf, not a full elf (though I support the concept that his elven father was the original Olvensteward of the South).
Given the "regime alignment" of N(G), I felt NG was most appropriate for his personal alignment. CG would, I think, be too polarized to facilitate the racial harmony that exists in Sunndi.
If we accept that he is NG, he then cannot be a cleric of any of the Seldarine deities (all of whom are CG or CN). I could have gone with Ehlonna, but wanted to make Hazendel a bit more "civilized". Lydia is said to have only five major temples in all of the Flanaess. As one of those is in Pitchfield, I felt it appropriate that this would be the faith of its ruler (though not in any way a "state" religion).
I postulate that Hazendel is between 200 and 250 years old, having ruled Sunndi since before it joined the Iron League in 455 CY. I believe that his father (Dromdaniel, as per Oerth Journal 1), would have been the original Olvensteward, and was appointed Count when Sunndi was absorbed by the Great Kingdom (though I do find it hard to believe that he was the "loyal peer" of the Herzog mentioned in the Guide).
If anyone else has developed this individual, and the history of Sunndi in general, how have you done so?
I had an interesting debate with one of my players on this very topic, as he has an elven PC who he's decided hails from Sunndi, based on his perusal of some GH sourcebook.
MY campaign is heavily influenced by Tolkein in the sense that the races of men and demi-humans rarely live in harmony together (The City of GH and parts of Ulek being the only documents exceptions thus far; Irongate is another possible location, just one I've not yet visited). Stereotypically (sigh), dwarves tend to live under hills and mountains (although only two major dwarven strongholds still stand as of this date, the other five having fallen over the millenia to various evils), and elves tend to live in forests. Gnomes are limited strictly to a large enclave in the Abbor-Alz, and halflings have three realms, each roughly the size of the Shire - one in Ulek, one in Celene, and one in the Vale of the Mage.
This is as much a plot device as anything; my campaign is in the early stages of the GH Wars, and the divisions among the goodly races are part of what's dooming them all to extinction. Hackneyed, I know, but a good role-playing opportunity for the PCs as emissaries to the various realms.
I don't remember the specifics, but at the risk of embarrassing myself I'll say that his source material noted that the majority race of Sunndi was human, and approximately 10% were elven. To me, that says elves inhabit the Rieuwood and its fringes, and coexist peaceably with the men of the realm.
He wanted Hazendel to be an elf, but an elf ruling a human realm is, to me, even less likely than a Muslim being elected President of the United States. A half-elf (or half-human, as you will) is more plausible, though if the racial splits are what I think they are, I still think it's unlikely unless the populace is REALLY enlightened. My Hazendel, then, is human - although I'd love to hear compelling arguments as to why elf or half-elf is a logical choice.
I don't remember the specifics, but at the risk of embarrassing myself I'll say that his source material noted that the majority race of Sunndi was human, and approximately 10% were elven. To me, that says elves inhabit the Rieuwood and its fringes, and coexist peaceably with the men of the realm.
It sounds like your player's source material was dead-on. According to the '83 boxed set, the population of Sunndi is about 83% humans, 10% gray elves, 4% mountain dwarves, and 3% gnomes. By way of contrast, the population of Celene is about 39% humans, 35% elves (gray and sylvan), and 26% gnomes. Even still, that's a fair concentration of elves, particularly gray ones.
btgrover wrote:
He wanted Hazendel to be an elf, but an elf ruling a human realm is, to me, even less likely than a Muslim being elected President of the United States. A half-elf (or half-human, as you will) is more plausible, though if the racial splits are what I think they are, I still think it's unlikely unless the populace is REALLY enlightened.
My understanding of Sunndi is that the populace really IS that enlightened. Dwarves and elves cooperate to a degree unseen outside of the Uleks, for mutual protection from their common enemy (Aerdy).
btgrover wrote:
My Hazendel, then, is human - although I'd love to hear compelling arguments as to why elf or half-elf is a logical choice.
Well, in addition to him being a cleric 5 / fighter 8 / MU 8, keep in mind that one of Hazendel's titles is "Olvensteward of the South". It's unlikely that a human would be granted this title.
"Well, in addition to him being a cleric 5 / fighter 8 / MU 8, keep in mind that one of Hazendel's titles is "Olvensteward of the South". It's unlikely that a human would be granted this title."
I guess I'm not as married to canon as some are. If something can't be logically justified to me, I won't hesitate to change it, even if it came from Gygax's mighty pen. "Because this book says so," isn't justification enough for me.
The theory about unification as a means of survival against the Great Kingdom is more along the lines of what I'm talking about. However, Sunndi is really isolated geographically, and invasion would be awfully difficult. In the accounts of the GH wars, I don't seem to recall reading that Sunndi was ever threatened, even when Aerdi waged all-out war, and the Brotherhood was moving and grooving just to the south.
I'm interested in Sunndi, and one of the reasons for that is this isolation - I think it could serve as justification for an interesting populace, kind of cut off from the rest of the Flanaess culturally. Has anybody developed this idea at all - or am I the only one kind of unsatisfied with canon here?
I think Nell was in the process of fleshing out an Underdark region below these lands, but not sure the range of the 'Dark, or the potential for access from Sunndi proper. I know there were entrances at or near the Vast Swamp, maybe it didn't range north of that...
However, Sunndi is really isolated geographically, and invasion would be awfully difficult. In the accounts of the GH wars, I don't seem to recall reading that Sunndi was ever threatened, even when Aerdi waged all-out war, and the Brotherhood was moving and grooving just to the south.
Given your opinion of "canon", this may not mean anything to you, but read this excerpt from "The Official History of the Greyhawk Wars" by Zeb Cook:
Quote:
. . . With sizeable but unreliable armies, the Overking struck in several directions at once. His Glorioles Army crossed the Thelly River and entered the Glorioles. After hacking through stiff resistance there, the army broke south into the County of Sunndi. . . .
Osson’s Raid
The Great Kingdom’s intentions could hardly pass unnoticed. One country that held an anything-but-casual interest was the Prelacy of Almor. This small nation had long witnessed the brutal ambition of the Overking at work and therefore knew not to be caught unawares. The Prelate Kevont had personally organized an extensive spy network to monitor the lands of the madman. That network now reported the mustering and movement of massive armies in all landed quarters of the kingdom. When he received this intelligence, Prelate Kevont dispatched messengers to Nyrond and the Iron League and sent the war banner throughout the country. With the speed of a people ever poised on the brink of war, Almor’s defenses were fully manned.
A prudent ruler, Kevont did not personally take command of Almor’s troops. The old prelate had long led his country by wisely recognizing the best man for every job. In this case, the best man was the Honorable Osson of Chathold. Kevont appointed the energetic young knight as Commandant of the Field, with every knight and yeoman of Almor’s forces under his command.
Commandant Osson had little difficulty assessing the grave situation facing Almor. The Great Kingdom could squash the tiny country through sheer numbers—and apparently intended to do so. Though the dilemma was clear, the solution was not. Recognizing that Almor could not be defended against such a foe, Osson decided to take the offensive—committing a daring raid into the Great Kingdom’s lands to keep its forces from attacking. The plan would have met with insurmountable objection from older and “wiser” knights had the prelate wavered even momentarily in support of his young protege.
The plan was simple and daring. Osson divided his army into two forces, posting the first along the border with the Great Kingdom.
Too small to block a major attack, this army aggressively patrolled and probed the frontier. Their rigor would make them seem twice their actual number and thus hopefully forestall any major assault by the Aerdians.
The second half of the army consisted of all available cavalry, riding under Osson’s personal command. Baggage, notoriously cumbersome and complicated for most armies, was all but forbidden. Osson ordered that each man live in the saddle, forsaking all the comforts normally carried. For the outnumbered forces of Almor, speed could make the difference between life and death.
Having divided his forces, Osson set his plan in motion. Knowing that neither of his armies could long withstand the full attention of the Great Kingdom, the commandant hoped to divert Ivid’s armies away from Almor. Almor needed time for Nyrondese aid to arrive, and if Osson could fluster the mad Ivid like a wasp in the helmet, the Overlord might never attack. Either way, Osson preferred to keep the battle on Aerdian soil.
Osson first struck south, passing through the Thelly Forest. With speed and surprise on their side, the horsemen brushed away Ahlissa’s ill-trained troops and plunged into the South Province. The land fell quickly into disarray. The peasants, long oppressed by their Herzog, welcomed the Almorian forces. The Herzog himself was slow to respond, for the bulk of Ahlissa’s troops were massed on her western border, preparing to assault Irongate. Rushing detachments of his army toward the east, the Herzog reluctantly accepted offers of aid from the Overking. The Aerdi army marched southwest to engage the intruders, but before either force could catch him, Osson advanced again.
Instead of returning to Almor, Osson led his horsemen into the Rieuwood. The Glorioles Army of the Overking, though victorious, had suffered badly in its conquest of Sunndi. Osson calculated that a defeat in Sunndi would swing Ivid’s attention from Almor. Once through the wood, Commandant Osson found the Overking’s forces arrayed and ready for him. Even badly hurt, the Glorioles Army would have proved an equal match for the Almorians but that the Aerdians did not have a general of genius on their side. At the Battle of Rieuwood, Osson initiated the tactic of false retreat that was to become his hallmark. Believing the cavalry routed, the Aerdians gave chase, only to blunder into a deadly trap. The Glorioles Army was decimated.
After a brief delay to reorganize, proclaim Sunndi’s liberation, and recruit volunteers, Osson set off again. . . .
You're right though, in the sense that just because something is canon doesn't excuse it from having to make sense. I still don't see any compelling reason why a country that's overwhelmingly human would have a non-human ruler, and would like at least an entertaining story.
The argument that they banded together to stave off attack from the Great Kingdom seems to have some, ahem, holes.
1) Just because they allied for this reason doesn't explain why an elf would lead them.
2) If the folk of Sunndi thought this alliance would hold against the might of Aerdi, they were clearly wrong, as the first thing that Ivid appears to have done once the Wars commenced was to crush them. I suppose they can't be faulted for instincts of self-preservation, but would Hazendel still rule AFTER the occupation? Wouldn't Ivid's generals have put him to the sword once the country fell? And if he managed to flee or escape while his subjects were slain, would they welcome him back as their king (steward?) once their attackers were vanquished?
Hey DM, I'm not trying to be an antagonistic jack@ss, I'm just unsatisfied with the story as canon tells it, and I'm casting about for a better explanation from the posters on this board. I don't think there's any question that this is the greatest assemblage of Greyhawk-thinking minds anywhere, so if there's a "better mousetrap", I expect we'll hear about it soon.
Meanwhile, I'll reiterate that making Hazendel a half-elf makes a lot more sense than calling him the Olvensteward, which surely sounds like a title that belongs in a purely elven nation. The offspring of an elven prince from the Rieuwood and a human princess (or some type of ranking aristocrat) from Pitchfield or Newkeep makes sense as a leader who could unite the forces of Sunndi under one banner.
The general idea of Sunndi history-wise is that it was an elven realm long before there were humans around. When humans showed up, however, they were generally accepted into the kingdom. Over time and for various reasons, they have become the majority of the population. However, the Olvensteward of the South remains the leader of the country (as Count of Sunndi).
I'm certainly not going to advocate canon compliance as one of the great virtues... However, it does seem to me that the main reason why you are finding certain things to be nonsensical is because you have consciously adopted a different view of race relations than the world was based on. Tolkein is not a good match for early GH material, as EGG doesn't really like Tolkein and drew on him only to the extent he felt necessary for marketing purposes.
Most of Greyhawk is decidely mixed race, though humans are dominant almost everywhere that is suitable for them to live. Highfolk, Ulek, Celene, Sunndi, and other realms are overtly multiracial.
Rejigging the world to suit your campaign and interests is more than desirable, its a core intention of the original publishers. However, using your new paradigm to say this or that is generally not sensible is a bit of a stretch.
Vormaerin, sounds interesting, please reference your source material vis a vis early history of Sunndi, I'd like to check it out.
I still haven't heard a compelling case for why Hazendel would be an elf. The bulk of the argument so far seems to revolve around the premise that the humans of Sunndi are a wonderful and wise people, who respect the fact that the land is the aincent home of a race of elves, and have consented to be governed by them (or, at least, to have formed a government with an elf as its head). Or perhaps they're a cowardly and weak-willed people who looked to the elves as their protectors (if that's the case, would be an interesting study to see how the events of the GH Wars changed their attitude towards the olvenfolk).
The former premise runs contrary to my experience with humans, both from our own history books here on Earth, and much of the history of the settling of the Flanaess. I'm not discounting this possibility out of hand, but if that's the case, why haven't we heard more from/of the men and women of Sunndi?
The latter premise makes it unlikely that Hazendel still rules modern-day (post GH Wars) Sunndi, which sounds like would be a tough pill for many Greyhawkers to swallow.
Maybe your source material holds some clues, please point me in the right direction, and I'll take a look.
Sorry to have hijacked the thread, Prata - but I guess nobody else HAS done anything with Hazendel. This area seems like a great staging ground for adventures, so I'm surprised by that.
From what I've read of post-Wars canon, when the Glorioles Army (briefly) conquered Sunndi, Hazendel led resistance fighters from the Vast Swamp. They certainly didn't go down without a fight. This definitely earned him some political capital. Circa 591 CY, after the Great Kingdom was sundered into the North Kingdom and the United Kingdom of Ahlissa, Hazendel declared himself Olvenking of the new Kingdom of Sunndi.
I know others disagree with me, but I think Hazendel being a half-elf makes a lot of sense from a race-relations perspective. It perfectly illustrates the cooperative nature of humans and elves in Sunndi. I should note, though, that my Hazendel, circa 570 CY, is still not completely accepted by the Olvenfolk. I have depicted him as having inherited the title of Olvensteward from his late (and full-Olven) father Dromdaniel, a mere 125 or so years ago. He has yet to "prove" himself to the elves. He is incredibly shrewd (18 INT, 15 WIS) but not a natural leader by any means (8 CHA).
Here's another thorny question for anyone who wants to tackle it. The lordship of Sunndi was originally granted to a "loyal peer" of the Herzog of South Province, before the Turmoil Between the Crowns and the founding of the Iron League. Who was this "loyal peer"? Was it Hazendel, his father, or someone else entirely?
The LGG summary of Sunndi certainly based on that premise. I'd have to dig out my older materials to see if there is further support. I've never actively campaigned in that part of the Flanaess, so haven't got the information off the top of my head.
I certainly agree that there is no real world support for the idea of humans having a non human ruler..... However, there are quite a few examples of multi ethnic states that did not collapse into race warfare. Kievan Rus, for instance.
Sunndi has an elven head of state and a multi ethnic, largely human, Council of Lords that advises him. That does not mean there is *no* ethnic tensions, of course. However, most "ethnic" tensions around the world have their basis in economics. If the elves aren't giving the humans much reason to feel hard done by, there won't be a big 'down with the elves' sentiment.
As I said, Sunndi is hardly unique in GH for this sort of multi racial structure. Highfolk, the County of Ulek, and the Duchy of Ulek all have human majorities and a non human leader (well, Highfolk has a joint ruler system). And the basis of your complaint (real world ethnic tensions) would also invalidate Keoland if fully accepted (Suel royalty, Oerid nobility, multiracial peasantry).
Well I am developping the Sunndi/Naerie area in my campaign and I personnally think that one of the main feature of the sunndians is their legendary tolerance and their tendency to accept and integrate cultures and races, even more then the Ulek states. Sunndi was founded by Suloise houses that settled in that buccolic land. They did not want to follow their more furious brothers who went south to the tilvanot peninsula. They stayed there and befriended with the grey elves who were the local power of the land. Eventually, the Great Kingdom came to invade the land but the citizens of Sunndi (humans, halflings, gnomes and elves) took up arms against the invaders. Thus it impregnates the Sunndian culture with ideas of freedom and solidarity that cannot be matched anywhere else in the Flannaes. That validates Trithereon as a state religion even if this particular cult is against any form of authority or established law. The faith of Trithereon is the link that unites the sunndians, preserving their freedom and giving them the strenght to face off and defeat invaders.
To me Hazendel is elven (the level cap is not an argument, 3rd editions is out, face the music, those limitations where only done so that people would have an advantage with playing humans). Since the elves are the wisest (aka oldest) people of the kingdom, they rightly deserve to rule this nation who thrives on tolerance and freedom of thought. The elves are wise enough to provide the political system a council and pseudo-democratic measures that would prevent tyranny. Personnally i dont think Hazendel has any stat under 10 especially for charisma while his highest scores are in intelligence and wisdom. Hazendel is a war hero and a clever diplomat. He received the best teachings a prince can have since the Grey-elves are well learned in many fields and the Trithereonites can provide some knowledge on the war oriented side of things.
Finally I think we should forget about real world analogies. This is a fantasist setting yes and we do not have to justify an imaginary political system and it's ruler by our standards. Yes most of the setting has been defined with a relation to medieval Europe but then things are quite different when goblins are really waiting for you to sleep so that they can steal your underwear. Magic changes many things and we should keep that in mind. Yes we may try to understand the whole world with some of our concepts but we should always keep in mind that a dragon can change things by flying over our heads. And beside, by making such analogies we do fall into ethnocentrism. I remember the post that was about regional alignments and someone used the USA-Lawful Good and USSR- Chaotic evil analogy. But then we may discuss the fact that the US always had a tradition of free-thinkers where the market takes over the political wich makes the US more of a CG country while the USSR always had a tradition of oppression which makes it much more like a LE country (we can also discuss the Good or Evil part too).
So let's loose the muslim/nazi/jewish analogies and try to recentrate around the main subject : a fantastic world filled with magic and wonders.
The sunndians really are enlightened (like the canadians maybe ) and they respect wisdom and intelligence enough to allow an elder race to guide their nation.
To me Hazendel is elven (the level cap is not an argument, 3rd editions is out, face the music, those limitations where only done so that people would have an advantage with playing humans).
My argument here has nothing to do with the current rules of the game. It is based on the premise that, when the WoG setting was first published, and when Hazendel was first introduced therein, the 1E Players Handbook level limits did apply. I speculate that, based on those limits, his levels of 5/8/8 strongly suggest that he was intended to be a half-elf. The half-elf level limits in the then-current version of the game were, remarkably, 5/8/8. The elven level limits at the time were 7/7/11. Therefore, in the original WoG folio, Hazendel could not have possibly been a full-blooded elf.
Yes, the rules of the game have changed, and "adjustments" have to be made to one's campaign with each new rules revision, but that would not have altered the race of this NPC. If Hazendel were created in, say, 595 CY, using 3E rules, those level limits would not have applied. However, Hazendel was created in 576 CY (1980 A.D.), and must have abided by the rules of the game at that time. If you choose to give him extra levels, or whatever, now, that's fine, but I'd have a hard time rationalizing an "elfoplasty" operation to make him a full-blooded elf.
Elven Realm - Demi-human alliances
Suel Refugees
Oeridian / Aerdi Conquest
Revolt
Council of Lords / Iron League Member
GHW reconquest / resistance
Osson Liberation
Collapse of the Iron League
Overtures of United Ahlissa
Kingdom of Sunndi Created
Humans are the majority, however they are not all one race or culture, split between Oeridian and Suel, given the brutal oppression of the Aerdi conquest and administration (oppressive taxes and exploitation of resources) led to a mass multi-racial popular revolt, it is hardly surprising that the non-humans and suel would prefer the elves with their history of tolerance and individualism rather than any Aerdi house given the brutality of Aerdi rule fresh in their collective memories.
For DMPrata: Who was this "loyal peer"? No noble is named specifically but LGG mentions "a noble currently in favor in zelradton" which suggests turnover for the position was common and appointees were probably judged by the amount of wealth recieved. Could help explain the brutal aggressive policy pursued in sunndi, they were trying to keep their position.
Since the Elves were seen as elder statesmen, Hazendel was a hero of resistance, Ahlissian interest frightened non-human and suel alike, SB attitude frightened the Oeridian and non-human populace. Hazendel as an elf was a logical acceptable "compromise" that all the factions could agree upon.
Hazendel (CG) Chaotic doesn't mean lawless rather it could mean Hazendel simply doesn't like to meddle with individual freedom or stick his nose into his subjects business unless it's absolutely necessary, which no doubt helps his popularity.
As for the faith Trithereon, as a monarch, Hazendel faith would encourage him to stress individual choice and freedoms as much as possible.
I always saw Hazendel as an elf, never questioned, LGG does say Gray Elven Royal family not half-elven.
BTW: Take a look at a series called "Sud Graufult" found on cannonfire detailing the Sunndi Aerdi region if your interested, they are well done, sadly the author so far hasn't continued the series to include the rest of Sunndi.
I always saw Hazendel as an elf, never questioned, LGG does say Gray Elven Royal family not half-elven.
Crag, thanks for all the useful info. My point about him being a half-elf was that all the later canon material was wrong (a sweeping statement, I know). As originally presented, though, he could not have been an elf with the given levels. No one else seems to see that, though, so I guess I'm on my own with that interpretation.
I noticed your level point and found it very interesting, however I tend to see it, more as a misprint or laziness rather than erase canon up to that point over 1 level.
I simply prefer Hazendel as an elf, strictly personal choice
Sure, you've established that there was a misprint. There are plenty of those in GH products, such as the gender issues of Reynard Yargrove. What you have not established is that the misprint was in the levels rather than in the race. So you can "solve" the problem by changing his levels or changing his race. Its pretty clear how most folks solved the problem, but that doesn't mean you have to make the same decision.
This is similar to my recent discovery that Herzog Grenell of North Province was the original Grandfather of Assassins in the Flanaess. It was right there in front of my face for 25 years, but I didn't see it for the lack of fanfare. He is simply listed as, "Assassin, 15th level". Well, duh! That makes him the Grandfather!
I always thought that was neat---a noble of the GK as the GF of Assassins :D Not too dissimilar to the head of the SB being the one and only Master of Autumn (Monk 14).
Crag, thanks for all the useful info. My point about him being a half-elf was that all the later canon material was wrong (a sweeping statement, I know). As originally presented, though, he could not have been an elf with the given levels. No one else seems to see that, though, so I guess I'm on my own with that interpretation.
Nope, I'm with you, DMPrata---I always figured the ruler of Sunndi was a half-elf too: that options, IMO, helps to nicely distinguish Sunndi from Celene, otherwise you have two very similar realms with similar ruler demographics/etc. Having a half-elf ruler to me seems more apropos for a region that was once part of the Great Kingdom, too.
I see your point, I have no problem with a half-elf per say.
Now you have too explain all the little tidbits of canon GH fans like to discuss in endless detail...easier at this point simply to make him an elf.
But I must admit, I have been thinking, to provide a difference between Celene and Sunndi, to lessen the GK Demi-human "intolerance", a half-elf is certainly plausible.
Btw, wondering how much elven blood is needed before you are a half-elf?
Is their 1/4 or 1/8 elves or is their a GH "one drop of elvish or orcish blood rule" like they had in the pre-civil war south or nazi germany when racial purity was adopted as a societial value?
Finally, the assassin / monk issue, since it was brought up
I always felt the assassin and monk levels, made more sense if they were restricted within one organization, assassins and monks have separate individual organizations. Why would one assassin or monk care about the levels in a distant part of the flanaess, doesn't it make sense that separate guilds and sects would compete within their group rather then outside given the secretive nature of both occupations.
Otherwise a LG monk in Zeif travels to the tilavot pennisula to challenge Korenth Zan (as if he would reach SB land at all) or a Tusmit assassin travels to eastfair (where the Herzog drops everything)...makes no sense.
A separate heirarchy within each sect or guild is just common sense.
Btw, wondering how much elven blood is needed before you are a half-elf?
Is their 1/4 or 1/8 elves or is their a GH "one drop of elvish or orcish blood rule" like they had in the pre-civil war south or nazi germany when racial purity was adopted as a societial value?
If I remember the AD&D2E PHB, more than half the ancestry elven=elven. Any elf to half the ancestry=half-elf. Given that human breed like bunnies compared to elves, I don't really see how anyone could have a human blooded elf under this rule, but....
Crag wrote:
I always felt the assassin and monk levels, made more sense if they were restricted within one organization, assassins and monks have separate individual organizations. Why would one assassin or monk care about the levels in a distant part of the flanaess, doesn't it make sense that separate guilds and sects would compete within their group rather then outside given the secretive nature of both occupations.
Yeah, yeah, but by the letter of the rules in the AD&D PHB.... (where's the rolling eyes smiley?)
Umm, we seem to have lost a post here or something... That quote above in DMPrata's post is most certainly not from me. Rather it is from his reply to me, which seems to have vanished or been edited in some crazy way.
Anyway, if the Glossography/Guide back then never mentions the race of the ruler of Sunndi (my copy is not available at the moment), then I'd say you were correct that he was originally intended to be a half elf. I was under the impression it stated he was an elf, but with half elf limits.
For half elves specifically, the 3e rule seems to be that you have to have 1 elf or two half elfs amongst your parents or grandparents to be "half elf" in game terms. Less than than that and you count as human. It doesn't say anything about how much elf blood you need to be counted as elven; the implication seems to be that any amount of human ancestry makes you not an elf....
Btw, I don't see Celene and Sunndi as very similar at all. Sunndi is clearly a largely human nation with important demi human populations (including the royal family). It is actively engaged in international affairs, though not as aggressively as some. Celene's largest demographic group is elven (extremely so in the LGG, only slightly in older sources). It is isolationist and it is clearly a "elf" realm.
Umm, we seem to have lost a post here or something... That quote above in DMPrata's post is most certainly not from me. Rather it is from his reply to me, which seems to have vanished or been edited in some crazy way.
Yeah, if there's an Admin around (hint, hint grodog!), that earlier post is all messed up. The quoted text is mine. I have no idead who typed the added text below it.
Umm, we seem to have lost a post here or something... That quote above in DMPrata's post is most certainly not from me. Rather it is from his reply to me, which seems to have vanished or been edited in some crazy way.
Yeah, if there's an Admin around (hint, hint grodog!), that earlier post is all messed up. The quoted text is mine. I have no idead who typed the added text below it.
Please reclarify: I can edit the posts to fix some glitch (hopefully not caused by me, I've been known to do that once or thrice), but I need to know what text to put into which posts :D _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
"Well, in addition to him being a cleric 5 / fighter 8 / MU 8, keep in mind that one of Hazendel's titles is "Olvensteward of the South". It's unlikely that a human would be granted this title."
I guess I'm not as married to canon as some are. If something can't be logically justified to me, I won't hesitate to change it, even if it came from Gygax's mighty pen. "Because this book says so," isn't justification enough for me.
But you asked for convincing arguments. The title of Olvensteward alone is pretty compelling. Further, Hazendel had to be demihuman to be multiclass when the Glossography was written. That is equivalent to Hazendel being demihuman.
I think you're imposing behavior on your campaign world which makes Hazendel's race illogical -- Greyhawk canon has not failed, you've just rejected its assumptions.
Grodog, the following quoted post is the one in question. I typed a post which contained the text attributed here to Vormaerin (as well as other text, which is now lost). Then I believe Vormaerin responded with the second part of the post, which is wrongly attributed to me.
DMPrata wrote:
Vormaerin wrote:
This is similar to my recent discovery that Herzog Grenell of North Province was the original Grandfather of Assassins in the Flanaess. It was right there in front of my face for 25 years, but I didn't see it for the lack of fanfare. He is simply listed as, "Assassin, 15th level". Well, duh! That makes him the Grandfather!
I always thought that was neat---a noble of the GK as the GF of Assassins :D Not too dissimilar to the head of the SB being the one and only Master of Autumn (Monk 14).
I have no idea who's comment that is about the "neatness" of Grenell being the Grandfather of Assassins. It sure doesn't reflect my views.
What I *think* happened is that someone with edit power tried to reply to DMPrata with a quote and ended up fubaring his post by hitting the edit button instead of the quote one. The quoted text is a portion of his original reply The reply to it belongs to some third party, apparently.
Grodog, the following quoted post is the one in question. I typed a post which contained the text attributed here to Vormaerin (as well as other text, which is now lost). Then I believe Vormaerin responded with the second part of the post, which is wrongly attributed to me.
Unfortunately that looks like it was my mistake: I probably hit the edit vs. the quote button when replying. I noted this, but thought that I had caught the error and backtracked it sufficiently far to have the original text in hand when I fixed what you now see. Apparently not :(
I'm sorry for the mixup and confusion. If you have the now-lost text, or some approximation of it, I'll happily fix the posting. Otherwise, we can ping one of the other admins to see if it's possible to restore the original post. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Grodog, the following quoted post is the one in question. I typed a post which contained the text attributed here to Vormaerin (as well as other text, which is now lost). Then I believe Vormaerin responded with the second part of the post, which is wrongly attributed to me.
Unfortunately that looks like it was my mistake: I probably hit the edit vs. the quote button when replying. I noted this, but thought that I had caught the error and backtracked it sufficiently far to have the original text in hand when I fixed what you now see. Apparently not :(
I'm sorry for the mixup and confusion. If you have the now-lost text, or some approximation of it, I'll happily fix the posting. Otherwise, we can ping one of the other admins to see if it's possible to restore the original post.
Sorry, gro', I don't remember what I had originally typed (other than the part Vormae -- er, you -- quoted.
But you asked for convincing arguments. The title of Olvensteward alone is pretty compelling. Further, Hazendel had to be demihuman to be multiclass when the Glossography was written. That is equivalent to Hazendel being demihuman.
[snippage]
Jack
Unless he is a dual-class human. Then we know he has a minimum 15 Wisdom and 17 Strength and Intelligence. And a minimum 7 Constitution and 6 Dexterity. [/esoteric rules minutiae]
Why not? The dual in dual-class is not a limit to the number of classes a human in AD&D can have, it signifies a different system than demi-human multi-classing. Case in point, AD&D bards are dual-classed fighter/thief/druids(bards). That's three classes they have to qualify for, though the last relaxes a few of the dual-class restrictions.
First, as presented in Players Handbook, there is no such thing as "dual-classing". That term came later. The term is "character with two classes". That, by definition, prohibits a character from taking a third class. I know 2E opened this up, stating that there was theoretically no limit to the number of classes a human could pursue, but Hazendel was created in 1E, so that does not apply.
Secondly, bards are not "dual-classed" characters. They are not fighter/thief/druid(bard)s, and were not designed with those rules in mind. It is best to think of them as bards from the time they are created. For the first 5-7 levels of their careers, they perform as fighters. For the next 6-8 levels, they perform as thieves. Thereafter, they acquire full bardic abilities.
Thus, I reiterate, Hazendel must be an elf or half-elf to be a cleric/fighter/MU, and, if we accept his stated levels, he can only be a half-elf.
Sorry, gro', I don't remember what I had originally typed (other than the part Vormae -- er, you -- quoted.
Le sigh. I'll see if it's possible for Gary to restore the mangled post when he returns from holiday. _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Thus, I reiterate, Hazendel must be an elf or half-elf to be a cleric/fighter/MU, and, if we accept his stated levels, he can only be a half-elf.
Eh, you're probably right. Elves can't be Cleric/Fighter/Magic-Users in AD&D anyway. Half-elves are the only race allowed that multi-class combination.
Half-elves were the only race that allowed that combination for PCs, but the option has always been available to NPCs; look at the entry for elves in the MM.
Do you think the Elven (or Olven) Steward of the South should be an elf, or is a half-elf olven enough? I prefer my elven stewards to be elven, so Hazendel is a gray elf in my campaign.
Scott
As for whether Hazendel is a half-elf or elf, I remember comparing the levels to the PHB way back when and figuring he must be one of them, but as I never used Sunndi as a setting, I don't remember my conclusion.
What I question is why being CG means he can't rule a land that is basically NG. What is that based on? Kimbertos is listed as LG while Keoland is NG. Is that impossible too? A rulers alignment doesn't have to match the national alignment exactly. The two are not that directly connected. So I see no reason to find a CG alignment unsuitable.
While I'll stick with a human ruler for a country where 9 of 10 citizens are human, Scott is right - if you're going to keep the moniker of "Olvensteward" for Hazendel, you have to make him a full-blooded elf. I can't imagine any half-elf would have the audacity to take on that name. My elven PC that hails from Sunndi, for one, would certainly take offense. As an aside, I like the title, so I'm going to transport it - perhaps it's befitting of Prince Melf, once he severs ties with that xenophobe Yolande.
I think this fellow was originally intended to be an elf, but I think Gygax probably spent about 15 seconds thinking about it - far less than the time spent debating it on this thread. If half-elf works for your game, go with it. Auguring for clues as to intent by reviewing his classes and levels puts the N in nerd. Cast off the chains of canon, if only for a few seconds, and make an independant decision that suits your own campaign.
What I question is why being CG means he can't rule a land that is basically NG. What is that based on?
Sam, if you see my post here, you'll see my conclusion that the "popular" alignments of Sunndi are LN, CG, and N. The "regime" alignment appears to be N or NG (which would be necessary to hold together such a diverse population). That's why I have a problem with Hazendel being CG; it's too polarizing, and it contradicts the map that Scott and I agree to represent "regime" alignments.
I'm afraid I don't see that. First, I think you are making more of an issue of alignment than the matter deserves. Alignment is a general roleplaying guide, not some overriding feature of personality.
More importantly, its far from unusual for a leader to have a different alignment than the populace. Given that CG tends towards personal freedoms and individual rights, it seems rather likely Hazenden would not be spending a lot of time telling his subjects what to do. So even if you do make a big issue of alignment behavior, I don't see how that particular combination would be unduly polarizing.
Another important factor is how much power Hazenden actually has as ruler of Sunndi. There is apparently a council of lords. If the balance of power is in their favor, his personal alignment may not make that big an impact on people's day to day lives.
What I question is why being CG means he can't rule a land that is basically NG. What is that based on?
Sam, if you see my post here, you'll see my conclusion that the "popular" alignments of Sunndi are LN, CG, and N. The "regime" alignment appears to be N or NG (which would be necessary to hold together such a diverse population). That's why I have a problem with Hazendel being CG; it's too polarizing, and it contradicts the map that Scott and I agree to represent "regime" alignments.
Hazendel's personal alignment should be an indicator of how he might act, but he is not the 'regime'. The regional alignments map can be used as a guideline for what might be expected from the people and organization of a certain area, but that's it. If Hazendel had a personal alignment of CG, i don't see it in any way conflicting with the regional alignment listings of N and NG. I haven't given Hazensel's personal alignment a lot of thought though, and NG works as well an CG for me.
Scott
Sam, if you see my post here, you'll see my conclusion that the "popular" alignments of Sunndi are LN, CG, and N. The "regime" alignment appears to be N or NG (which would be necessary to hold together such a diverse population). That's why I have a problem with Hazendel being CG; it's too polarizing, and it contradicts the map that Scott and I agree to represent "regime" alignments.
I don't see why it should be so polarizing.
The CG people appreciate the freedoms, the LN people simply form societies with more explicit rules, and the N people keep the others in a stable balance.
And while I do give you credit for thoroughly analyzing the discrepancies in the article from Dragon 52, and how it was incorporated into the 83 set, all it does is support what I've constantly harped on as justification to dump the greater part of it because of all the inconsistencies. It doesn't support needing a ruler of any particular alignment.
Thus, I reiterate, Hazendel must be an elf or half-elf to be a cleric/fighter/MU, and, if we accept his stated levels, he can only be a half-elf.
I agree with this. IMO/IMC, he's a half-elf.
ScottG wrote:
Hazendel's personal alignment should be an indicator of how he might act, but he is not the 'regime'. The regional alignments map can be used as a guideline for what might be expected from the people and organization of a certain area, but that's it. If Hazendel had a personal alignment of CG, i don't see it in any way conflicting with the regional alignment listings of N and NG. Scott
And this too. Reading too much into the "regional alignment map" often gets GH criticized as "shoehorning" entire countries and their populations into alignments. I like Scott's term - "guideline" - not a commandment. _________________ GVD
IMO, alignment is one of the weakest parts of the D&D/d20 system, useful only, as someone said, as the most general of guidelines to a character's personality and motivations and completely useless for anything larger.
If you want an example of how poor the alignment system is at modeling beliefs, attitude and outlooks, look at the d20 version of Legend of the 5 Rings, where characters and entire clans with a mix of complex motivations and drives were labeled with a single and inadequate alignment classification (for example the Lion were LG; L5R was never really suited to d20 anyway (for example, d20 combat isn't lethal enough), which is probably why AEG dropped it in the recenly released 3rd Edition).
In chat tonight, I asked Gary to take a look to see if anything from that post could be restored. Hopefully he'll have a chance over the long weekend! _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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) and they respect wisdom and intelligence enough to allow an elder race to guide their nation.
That makes him the Grandfather!
