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    Canonfire :: View topic - Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Adventurer
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Readers Workshop
    Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Adventurer
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

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    Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:49 pm  
    Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Adventurer

    Your justice is rather benign.

    Arson is generally considered worse than assault or kidnapping. In some place (like NY) you can use lethal force on an arsonist on your property, even if they aren't otherwise threatening you. Arson should generally be a death penalty offense.

    Imprisonment is generally used only to hold people for trial, or for high ranking or high publicity prisoners. It is also generally restricted to cities, smaller settlements not having the resources for it at all. I'd replace most all imprisonment sentences with whipping, maiming, or enslaving.

    Enslaving for crimes was very big at certain times, usually being sent to the mines or galleys (popular for smugglers) which were quite difficult to escape from.

    Theft often had penalties based on what was stolen. Food or clothes got you a minor sentence, professional tools a heavier sentence, and luxury goods could get you a death sentence.

    Breaking and entering was typically regarded as worse than simple mugging. People had serious issues with anyone who entered a home, and the punishment was typically more severe than for a simple purse snatching.

    Moral crimes are the most subjective. They will frequently depend on the local religious beliefs, and many may not even be crimes.

    As for defenses, those are a lot simpler than they may appear. A simple appeal to posse comitatus should suffice for any claims against orcs and the like, especially if actually solicited by a patron with any legal standing. Even in the absence of such, it is quite likely that all orcs are declared outlaws by statute, and nobody has to worry about taking them down.

    Dueling is invariably limited to the upper classes - nobles and gentry. Commoners are unlikely to be able to claim it as a defense.

    As for cantonments, I doubt they'd be commonly sanctioned like that. Recognized de facto, sure, but rarely recognized de jure.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:04 am  
    Re: Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Advent

    Samwise wrote:
    Your justice is rather benign.


    That was actually something of the point - excusing conduct common to many adventuring parties - but without completely undermining the notion of a law code.

    While it is possible to hold PCs to strict compliance with a strict legal code, such runs counter to the way many players enjoy the game and I would in any event not want to run Law and Order - Greyhawk Unit. I think The Shield might be a better analogy with PCs playing slightly more circumspect (perhaps!) versions of Vic Mackey.

    While I've seen a number of "tea totalling" PCs, I've seen many more which are not and yet, ostensibly, remain the "heroes," however roughly. This article attempts to find a midpoint that works for both subsets of players.
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    GVD
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 03, 2003
    Posts: 33
    From: Fort Myers, FL

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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:55 pm  
    Re: Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Advent

    Samwise wrote:

    Imprisonment is generally used only to hold people for trial, or for high ranking or high publicity prisoners. It is also generally restricted to cities, smaller settlements not having the resources for it at all.


    Historically that may be true, but IMC, most small settlements have at least a stocks or "gaol pits" where minor criminals can be imprisoned for short sentences related to minor crimes, or as you suggest, held until trial or awaiting the higher authorities to come and take custody.

    In most goodly societies, IMO, stocks are an incredibly effective method of punishment for minor crimes, the sheer humiliation of being shackled for all to see will deter most sane folk.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Bronx, NY

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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:51 pm  
    Re: Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Advent

    GVDammerung wrote:
    That was actually something of the point - excusing conduct common to many adventuring parties - but without completely undermining the notion of a law code.


    Except that is just what that does. (Undermine the notion of a law code.)
    If you are going to have a code of law, have one. Half of one just sets you up to make it weaker and weaker every iteration.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
    Posts: 196
    From: Columbus, Ohio

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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:53 pm  

    GVD,

    Thanks for putting this out there. It's really is going to save my sanity when dealing with PCs who argue this stuff and detract from game-time. I like it. I get it. And, I appreciate it.

    Just curious though, beyond the need to maintain the "fun factor", what resources did you use to produce this?

    As always, thanks,
    Skech
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 719
    From: Bronx, NY

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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:54 pm  
    Re: Rough Justice - Crime, Punishment and the Acts of Advent

    direrodent wrote:
    Historically that may be true, but IMC, most small settlements have at least a stocks or "gaol pits" where minor criminals can be imprisoned for short sentences related to minor crimes, or as you suggest, held until trial or awaiting the higher authorities to come and take custody.

    In most goodly societies, IMO, stocks are an incredibly effective method of punishment for minor crimes, the sheer humiliation of being shackled for all to see will deter most sane folk.


    Recidivism was just as bad in medieval times as it is today. That's why they generally didn't bother with theories of rehabilitation and just stuck with actual punishment.
    Stocks are fine for very minor "quality of life" crimes. For anything serious, it is going to be straight to the heavy punishments.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:58 pm  

    Skech wrote:
    GVD,

    Thanks for putting this out there. It's really is going to save my sanity when dealing with PCs who argue this stuff and detract from game-time. I like it. I get it. And, I appreciate it.

    Just curious though, beyond the need to maintain the "fun factor", what resources did you use to produce this?

    As always, thanks,
    Skech


    Thank you. Happy I was reading a book(s) on the history of dueling with swords, the title escapes me at the moment, and as I read the thought occurred -"Hey, if duelling were more common, as in PCs getting into a fight common, duelling codes could substantially effect the law, even becoming incorporated into the law." That got me started. Then I did some research on medieval prisons (several sources), specifically those in London, and found it interesting that imprisonment was practiced on a rather large scale from the 1100's forward. The rest came together from there, with a weather eye on addressing common PC actions. As a DM I had always had a sort of "PC exemption" unwritten in the law, but I figured I could now usefully firm that up, particularely as I have one very inquiring player who likes things firmed up.

    Personally, I don't like having to keep track of things under a strict law code that PCs would violate on a regular basis, as it undercuts the fantasy "reality." I prefer what is expressed here - a means to have the law allow PCs to behave as PCs often do and still prohibit more focused criminality. Distinguishing between the PCs and criminals is otherwise somewhat difficult at times. Wink

    This manner of proceeding lets me have my cake and eat it too - crime as criminal, but with exceptions that keep the PCs from being hunted as criminals or having to constantly explain themselves in court or to the local constabulary when they are just doing those things PCs do to get the job done. Smile

    As you note, it cuts through the legal stuff and gets to the fun of adventuring! Happy
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    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Posts: 1446


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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:10 pm  

    Skech wrote:
    . . . Just curious though, beyond the need to maintain the "fun factor", what resources did you use to produce this?

    As always, thanks,
    Skech


    Here we go, now that I can look through my notes:

    The Duel by Robert Baldrick (1996) - primary source
    Gentlemen, Swords and Pistols by Harnett Kane (1951) - secondary source
    Dueling, The Cult of Honor in Fin-de-Siecle Germany by Kevin McAleer (1997) - secondary source

    The first book is a general history of dueling and is what piqued my interest. The second book looks more specfically at dueling in America, particularly the Old South. The third book looks at dueling in turn of the century Germany.

    I would recommend all three books.
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    GVD
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