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    Canonfire :: View topic - Gleemax vs Canonfire
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Gleemax vs Canonfire
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:17 am  
    Gleemax vs Canonfire

    For those not aware of it yet, Gleemax is the name of the website Wotc is launching officially after Gencon that is intended to be a one stop of all gamers. They will have message boards but in something of a first for a gamer website, they will give every user who wants one their own webpage to run a blog, post about their campaign or post creative material, like we do here on Canonfire with the article submissions that debut on the front pages.

    Here is a quote from Gleemax' Terms and Conditions as spelled out by Randy Buehler, Gleemax Honcho -

    From the Gleemax blog of Randy Buehler -

    "Once Gleemax goes live and our new Terms of Use and Terms of Service kick in, you will retain ownership of any content you post (well, any content that you owned in the first place, anyway. And, of course, you are prohibited from violating or infringing the rights of others.). The one thing you do grant to us by posting your content onto our site is the right to use it as we please. . . .

    Note that you are allowed (solely per the terms of the Terms of Use and Terms of Service) to use our IP when generating content that you put on our site, however you are not allowed to then publish that content anywhere else."

    Link to full piece - www.gleemax.com/articles/announcement010.html

    Okay. Please note there are two pieces to this - 1) Wotc can use whatever you post and 2) you post it here, you can not "publish" it elsewhere. These two demandments work hand in hand, the second supporting the first.

    I have no issue with the first point. I post creative material to Canonfire with no expectation of profit and if Wotc thinks they could make a profit from anything I posted to Gleemax that would mean GH was being revived and I would be delighted. I would not care that I didn't get paid. I don't do fan creations with any such expectation or hope.

    The second point I have an issue with as it seems to implicate Canonfire. As I read it, if I post sometying to Gleemax, I can't then "publish" it by posting to Canonfire as that is electronic publishing, even if not for profit. Maybe what they mean to say is no publishing _for proft_ elsewhere once you post to Gleemax? I have asked for clarification on this issue.

    If they do mean no other publishing after Gleemax, I have posited the situation where I would post to Canonfire first and then Gleemax. This would technically follow the letter of the above quote at least arguably.

    I was thinking of using Gleemax but I will not give up Canonfire. I want to use both. I have expressed this and am waiting to see if I get an answer.

    A larger issue is out there, however. Are sites like Canonfire, Candlekeep, Planeswalker etc. compatible with Gleemax in the long run? If Gleemax wants to be the one stop, I think the matter may be in some doubt.

    Not sure where this is all going.
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    GVD
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:45 pm  

    GVD, that second point does seem pretty restrictive indeed. I know when Gleemax first hit the net and Wizards was doing their song and dance, alot of people at Enworld were frantic they were under the gun, and Wizards went out of their way to asuage those fears. I'm still skeptical. So I'm eager to find out what you learn about this publishing issue. Another interesting point I will bring up is the blog function of Gleemax. As Wizards' forums are already pretty popular with their customer base, theres certain things you can't do there without admonishment, like discussing Wizard's novels for example. So on your 'personal' Gleemax blog where all content is controlled by Wizards, how can anyone reasonably think their opinions won't be censored, especially if the criticisms are directed at the host of the blog?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 04, 2003
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:06 pm  

    I wonder... it sounds kind of like the web D&D version of a Walmart... move in, cause all its competitors to fold up, and then do what you want when you control the whole ball of wax.

    It will be nice if it turns out to be nice, but I think I'll continue to use and trust fan driven sites more than one from corporate Hasbro where the dollar will come first and we already have seen a frustrating history of the dollar trumping the imagination.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:52 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    GVD, that second point does seem pretty restrictive indeed. I know when Gleemax first hit the net and Wizards was doing their song and dance, alot of people at Enworld were frantic they were under the gun, and Wizards went out of their way to asuage those fears. I'm still skeptical. So I'm eager to find out what you learn about this publishing issue. Another interesting point I will bring up is the blog function of Gleemax. As Wizards' forums are already pretty popular with their customer base, theres certain things you can't do there without admonishment, like discussing Wizard's novels for example. So on your 'personal' Gleemax blog where all content is controlled by Wizards, how can anyone reasonably think their opinions won't be censored, especially if the criticisms are directed at the host of the blog?


    If I don't get any kind of response beforehand, I intend to raise the question with the Gleemax folks at Gencon.

    As I read the Gleemax TOS to this point:

    1) Freedom to criticize will not be impinged provided the language is PG rated - ie no "F-bombs" etc.

    2) All topics will be allowed, including non-gaming ones, although in practice I can't see Wotc letting Gleemax be used by somone exclusively for non-game content, but I could be wrong.

    Overall, I'm not negative to Gleemax at this point but guardedly optimistic.

    If all goes well, what I would personally like to do is simultaneously post content to Canonfire and Gleemax. The reason I say this is because Gleemax will doubtless get more eyeballs than Canonfire and if I can draw some eyeballs to my Gleemax content and then redirect it to Canonfire I figure I'm doing what little I can to help spread the word about Greyhawk. I would encourage other CFers to consider doing the same. Mort, you cartoons are a perfect example of content that might be posted to Gleemax to drive eyeballs to your site and Canonfire.
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    GVD
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:57 pm  

    Varthalon wrote:
    I wonder... it sounds kind of like the web D&D version of a Walmart... move in, cause all its competitors to fold up, and then do what you want when you control the whole ball of wax.

    It will be nice if it turns out to be nice, but I think I'll continue to use and trust fan driven sites more than one from corporate Hasbro where the dollar will come first and we already have seen a frustrating history of the dollar trumping the imagination.


    I completely understand this view and don't disagree, however, my thought is to set up a Gleemax page, put some GH content there, and link back to Canonfire, and thereby help spread the word about Greyhawk (hopefully) - guerrila marketing or viral marketing or whatever the buzzword for this sort of thing is. I'd encourage other CFers to consider doing the same. And if we would then crosslink each others Gleemax pages, we might generate internal raffic that would get the clueless to see what all the traffic is about and maybe get interested in GH. Maybe this is farfetched but I see a glimmer of a possibility here.
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    GVD
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:03 pm  

    It's that first clause that gets me. I'm all for freely distributing fan-based work, so I have no problem with that aspect of it, and normally I don't mind if someone decides to use my own work in their own campaigns. Why would I bother with something like Oerth Journal otherwise?

    But I do have a problem with some company somewhere using my work to line their own pockets. If they're going to put my efforts into one of their products at some time in the future, they'd dang well better pay me! I don't mind contributing to something for the benefit of gamers, but I have no interest in contributing to the enrichment of someone else's business without receiving due benefit in return. Why should I? If they start sending me free game books I might reconsider, but until then I'm out.

    Philosophically, I also have a problem with anyone who would use Gleemax under those conditions. Seriously, who's so desperate that they'd submit to WotC's terms just for a chance to get their designs on the web? You can do that on about a million websites already. You can also talk about game-related topics in about a million chat rooms. Why go to WotC at all?

    I say screw WotC and their attempt at establishing a role-playing monopoly. If they want to control the gaming world, let them earn it by putting out better products and service like every other business. Using their customers as unpaid designers is scandalous.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:16 pm  

    Copied from GVDammerung's post:
    "Please note there are two pieces to this - 1) Wotc can use whatever you post and 2) you post it here, you can not "publish" it elsewhere."

    The way I interpret what Gleemax put in their terms of service, it sounds to me like they're saying that once you post something, it becomes the sole property of Wizards, to use as they see fit. Simply put, once you post it on Gleemax, IT IS NOT YOURS ANYMORE.

    So, if you post something there, and it happens to be posted elsewhere as well, they claim the right to throw lawyers at you. (And I've heard they took Improved Initiative at least a few times when it comes to litigation)

    As far as linking to CF, I'd suggest posting things here, then mention them over there. If people are interested, they'll come here and check it out. That way, you can avoid the issue of your creative works being "owned" by Wizards and most likely tucked away wherever they stuck Tharizdun.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:29 pm  

    I am with the above posters; this doesn't smell quite right Sad

    I am all for fan based design, why I visit canonfire, but sadly I suspect we will see a "gathering" of ideas from Gleemax within future products without even credit given. Somewhere a suit decided why pay for design, when the gulliable fans will do it for nothing. Once you post if you lose rights, can't even post it elsewhere, such as another "LGG Gazeteer" project.

    We also don't know how aggressive WotC will be towards their "material" and censorship of the site?
    1) GVD mention of Canonfire could be removed by the board, with a warning.
    2) Do we know WotC won't send their lawyers after fan based sites like canonfire, claiming the "material" is now owned by them.

    Right or wrong can many sites remain up under that threat, for those sites that are targeted can they afford even a minor legal case with WotC and remain online for long.

    There seems plenty of risk with Gleemax and not much of a reward...
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:50 pm  

    For all you folks who posted a message about WOTC Gleemax please leave me a reference so I can find the same place you read this information. I would love to read it myself.

    In my opinion, I'm already not a fan of WOTC for a number of reasons, most of which have to do with their greediness when it comes to D&D and the other games they own.

    I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt but given what others have already written here I can easily see them attempting to squeeze out all of the smaller websites to gain control of everything.

    If they indeed have an agreement which states that they own the content we as fans offer on their site then one will not be able to post it elsewhere or ever hope to eventually get their material published. If they say they do not own it but the terms prevent you from posting it elsewhere it will certainly include publishing as well. Sounds like free way to acquire good D&D material from future game designers without having to pay them. It could also allow them to cut back on staff as well.

    Sure, we will have to see what they choose to do. If the terms of their posting are anything close to what is indicated above I'll reccommend everyone to stay away. Eventually (in my opinion) WOTC will drive D&D into the ground beyond anything they can recover from as a result of bad business decisions much like TSR did. Their pockets get to full, their brains swell with ego and they think we will bow down and worship them just because of this great hobby. In my opinion the best thing that could happen is they eventaully go belly up, and someone else with a lot less money picks things up because they are fans of the game and not driven by the almighty dollar. Bottom line.....Money is the only thing they care about! If they can publish for free they will! So fans beware!!!! In the meantime they will continue to publish only so-so material. The more they publish (at this point) the more they sell and the quality will go down and down until we simply stop buying.

    My suggestion....be careful what you post and actually read the agreement before doing so. Buy the material you like and be thinking about the future....I doubt we will see a 4th edition that will be printed in book form, it will go electronic. Could Gleemax be the start?

    Me personally, this is my last edition of D&D unless somehow Greyhawk takes the world by storm.....Right now, the clouds are getting dark and I can hear thunder in the background and that storm is WOTC.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:07 pm  

    Careful reading is important in these sorts of things. Note that clause two refers specifically to allowing posters to use WotC IP in their posts. They are specifically forbidding you to repost content containing that IP anywhere else even though it was legal to create the original. And the rest of the language is pretty standard. Most professional forums say something along those lines (about their right to reuse). It is what lets them make archives and the like without needing your express permission. You still retain ownership of that IP.

    In theory, a company could try to extend that to publishing another's work but that would be pretty silly. One, the stuff is already avialable to the public at no charge and two, it would quickly destroy the community they are trying to create. This sort of language is not especially unique to WotC and is pretty unlikely to be a conspiracy.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:44 pm  

    The main sticking point is that anything you post there you cannot publish yourself, even if it specifically doesn't contain anybody else's IP. I'd say that pretty much means you are giving up rights to it.

    You retain credit for the material, but can never, ever, do anything with it. GLEEMAX(WotC) can of course choose to publish said material in any way they want to. Nice bit of bait and switch there if you ask me.

    This is the reason I don't post material of any sort on the WotC boards, and I will not do so on GLEEMAX either. I may post links to CF! and other creatively user friendly sites however. Happy

    Content-wise, GLEEMAX doesn't look like it has much to offer yet. The forums are literally abysmal. it still looks to be in its formative stages, at least I hope it is. If this is anywhere representative of its finished form, I'll likely not visit GLEEMAX much, if at all.

    Go check out Kobold Quarterly's submission guidelines and author rights. http://wolfgangbaur.com/kobold_quarterly/submit.html I'd be much more inclined to write something for them, and *perhaps* even get paid for it.
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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:18 pm  

    This Gleemax business wouldn't even bother me had Wizards not pulled the plug on Dragon/Dungeon in the same month almost literally and tie it all together with this digital initiative. It's no wonder we are all paranoid and distrustful. Seeing is believing and actions speak more strongly than words.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:12 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The main sticking point is that anything you post there you cannot publish yourself, even if it specifically doesn't contain anybody else's IP. I'd say that pretty much means you are giving up rights to it.



    Well, it doesn't list the full terms of service in that blog piece. But it is quite clear that he's specifically limiting the republication of anything using D&D IP that is not covered by the OGL. In fact, the TOS for Gleemax is a relaxation of WotC's forum policy, generally, on this subject. If you post a novel on the WotC boards, they claim it is their property from that point on. Gleemax only claims they can use it as they see fit, but you still own it.

    Posting to Gleemax does not, from what that article says in my reading, limit you from reposting elsewhere... unless you are using D&D IP. Which, technically, you can't do anyway.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:44 am  

    So if I post something on the Gleemax site, WoTC says they get to keep it? Even if it belongs to someone else?

    I think i'm gonna start posting song lyrics and guitar tabs on the site and let WoTC and RIAA fight it out.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:12 am  

    I may be a cynic on the issue, but TSR/WOTC/ and corporations in genreal dont have a very good track record in the regards to these types of things.

    It looks to me like WOTC is desperate to drive all the fans of D&D to them. 1st ed, 2nd ed, 3rd ed, od&d they dont care. They want you back and they want you spending. The only thing most of the older edition peope were buying is Dungeon or Dragon (if that) because it had setting content.

    I have said for many years that WOTC is missing the boat in their publishing efforts; i.e. concentrating on the rules instead of the settings, source books, etc. You cannot really novelize "Feats," but Drittz, Raistlan and Mordenkainen could work well.

    So, I imagine that the plan is as follows:

    1. Everything is presented as all warm and fuzzy.. "No, you can repost to CF!, Dragonsfoot, EnWorld, etc. "

    2. And you can because you are ahead of the Flurry of notices to remove all WOTC content from the sites! I actually anticipate that they plan on trying to shut down CF, or at least limit the discussion to OGL (which won't leave much).

    3. Try and put such content in a purchaseable form. Possibly PDFs.

    I believe that they will find that the strength of the online community has grown significantly since their last round of such legal efforts. And the average fansite user will refuse to be hearded, which will frustrate them even more.

    There has clearly been a corporate culture at WOTC that dislikes GH. I think this is as much because of the age of the average GH user as the setting itself. We are fairly independant, and require that they put effort and quality into their products. Younger users are often not as picky.

    That said, the Gleemax effots is likely to strike across the spectrum. FR fans are aging. They are getting more like GH fans every day. Crotchety old and wanting it just like they want it. Ah the joys of age.

    Anyway... I dont see this going well. I dont think it is that I am untrusting, I think it is that WOTC has proven to be untrustworthy. The lawyers are to close to the ruling circle.

    As a close to a long winded post, I think posting any material to a WOTC board under the conditions outlined is foolish.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:41 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The main sticking point is that anything you post there you cannot publish yourself, even if it specifically doesn't contain anybody else's IP. I'd say that pretty much means you are giving up rights to it.


    That's not what it says.

    If you create generic or original material derived solely from the SRD (D&D's Open Content), it is yours. WotC can use it as they see fit, but you can still republish it at your whim.

    If, otoh, you create derivative material, say, GH articles, they say you still own it, however you can't ever do anything more with it. They can reuse it elsewhere, you can't.

    This means only one thing to me:
    I'll never post any content to Gleemax.
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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:30 pm  

    Wow! As usual GVD gets quite a discussion going with his attention to details and strong thought processes. (Kudos GVD and btw need to meet up with you in Indy.)

    More to the point of the discussion.....

    While it is quite right to worry about the rights of ownership to one's intellectual property as well as the WotC conspiracy to control and therby ruin DnD and GH, I think a step back is required.

    Now I am not saying what WotC is doing is generally in the best interested of the game or even the right reaction in a business sense, but rather, it seems to me they are regrouping after unleashing the monster they created in the OGL. And unfortunately they are reacting in the opposite direction.

    They have eliminated the best sources by neuturing the OGL and eliminating Dungeon and Dragon mags. Once done, they now have more or even total "creative control" of the product once again and are no longer playing catch up to the better products out there. And at the same time bringing more "relevance and attention" to the products that they themselves are publishing (and thereby they hope more sales).

    Also, Gleemax centralizes everyone in one spot so they can monitor the "pulse" of their own product without having to constantly try to predict one of the pickiest consumer groups out there.

    As far as ownership of one's intellectual property goes, I would love to see WotC try to reprint anything one of their users post for profit without fair compensation (much less take it out of their control). I am sure all the Hasbro lawyers together would agree it is a case they couldnt only win by no other means than bankrupting their opponent with legal expenses.

    Considering websites like this is what keeps their product relevant, it would be business stupidity to outright alienate or eliminate them. (Although right now they are proving otherwise.) Besides, they have no legal foothold on stopping the printing or even discussing such items as posted or listed here. UNLESS 1. It is is something they already own and we are setting it out there for download without any compensation to them. 2. It is a trademarked item that you must have permission to post. (And while some titles and logos are TM, I would love to see them do so with every proper name, spell, item, monster, etc they have created or bought.)

    We can all agree is the Net is very powerful if for no other reason than it is a printing of what we have all done for years prior to it appearing. We discussed, created, and changed the game we love. We exchanged notes, added new things to it, and complained about it. But the Net now puts it in front of everyone instead of just word of mouth and pencil/paper.

    I actually wish GLEEMAX the best, in the sense of what it could become for the gaming community. And I have no fear that CF!, and sites like it, will continue to live on and do exactly what we are doing here. Keep the lines of communication open and free.

    (Wow this ended up a lot longer than I thought it would, sorry guys.)
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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:34 pm  

    Hey all, a lot of views, opinions and feelings here... and its pretty much covered. I strongly agree with bubbagump about my material padding someone elses pocket... Mad ...some-what of a personal reason why I don't put allot of my material out there... call it wishfull... but I'm still hoping for the day of OGL for GH or the GH Lic being taken serious again and material sources being sought and paid for.

    I've got a few thorns still stuck in my side from WotC/Hasbro's actions of late...and what the future "may" hold, for GH and D&D. I don't need to repeat those... I do share with GVD about being "guardedly optimistic" about Gleemax.

    I guess "what I'm" trying to say is... CF already does it for me, I am so greatfull and apprecative for the way it is... I don't need "Gleemax", I don't care to indulge in WotC/Hasbro's current direction and there attempt to copy CF's successfull (like many other fan sites) patronage.
    Maybe Gleemax will be a great site...time will tell, but, like my brand of beer, I'll remain loyal to Canonfire... cheers! Happy

    P. aka AncientGamer

    I am not one for change...however change is inevitable...which really sucks! Sad
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    </a>AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:55 pm  

    Well in the Greyhawk community it seems we all pretty much agree on Gleemax and WOTC. No surprise there since it seems that the majority of Greyhawkers feel let down if not outright ripped off by WOTC. The best thing we can do right now is keep an eye on things and use Canonfire as much as possible.

    I'm guessing the majority of the people that have left a post concerning WOTC and Gleemax are old timers (like myself), something were proud of. I would like to hear from some younger people who haven't been playing D&D all that long. How do you folks feel about WOTC and Gleemax? What do you want to see done with Greyhawk or is Greyhawk just for us older folks?
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:05 pm  

    Hey Eileen, but thats just it .... GH is for/by us old timers, mainly because it hasn't been given the publication deserved to be learned by the newer gamers out there. Damm WotC/Hasbro. We'll die off and no one will ever know GH exsisted, except for the picto-graphs of Mort and the ancient tomes of GH lore hidden within the virtual realms... a bit dramatic yes?
    Laughing
    Later

    AG
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    </a>AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
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    Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:44 pm  

    BusterBudd

    Ok, maybe what we need to do is when they kill Greyhawk off, we can all come back as undead. That oughta shake up their little office suit cubicles a bit....I get bid on the President. He's toast!
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:21 am  

    As this is a Greyhawk site forum, and as GVD makes the comparison of GLEEMAX vs. Canonfire! I of course am referring to derivative material and not something SRD/OGL generic. If I were to post such derivative material I would basically be giving up any and all rights to it. I specifically removed some material from WotC's boards when I was made aware of this.

    As it regards even generic material, If I post something somewhere, and somebody else can then publish it in a book and sell it for profit without having to pay me, I've given up rights to it(creative and compensatory). Perhaps not fully, but enough that I will not be posting anything to GLEEMAX.

    GLEEMAX (currently) in no way even compares to Canonfire!. There might be more daily discussion/hits there, but as to the wealth of Greyhawk gaming material each site makes available, there is no comparison. As GLEEMAX seems to still be in its early formative stages, it remains to be seen how their Greyhawk content will stack up. Of course the people who will be responsible for putting up that Greyhawk content will be the fans, so you never know...
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:18 am  

    I smell a new poll. Wink
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:38 am  

    Smell this! Shocked Laughing Wink

    AG
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    </a>AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:04 pm  
    IP...uttt ohhhh

    Hi all -
    I think most of you are getting worked up over the wrong quote:

    "Note that you are allowed (solely per the terms of the Terms of Use and Terms of Service) to use our IP when generating content that you put on our site, however you are not allowed to then publish that content anywhere else." "

    From what I read - If you write a story about Greyhawk and post it to PeeMaxx, it's cool because it's their IP on their server. Oh, and they get it.
    But I'm more concerned with the reading of this statement that if you use WotC/Hasbro IP, it kinda has to be on PeeMaxx. If you post your IP content on CF! or even my own GreyhawkOnline.com then we're breaking the rules that they've been so lax on as of late. With their push for this Web site, they very well may start to send Gary and myself letters to remove our Greyhawk IP content. This would be in a push to control their IP more effectively, especially with the concept of making PeeMaxx the next MySpace (OK, I get the point, MySpace is a money maker, but come on, GleeMaxx? All that talent and research and they came up with a term like Glee that hasn't been used since the 50's?)

    Are any of you also thinking about this aspect of the ToS?
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:41 pm  

    Now I'm starting to think it might be best if nobody even mentions CF on the gleemax ( /me gacks ) site at all. Best to stay under their radar.

    I may seem paranoid, but it seems preferable to incautious and dead.
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:55 pm  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Now I'm starting to think it might be best if nobody even mentions CF on the gleemax ( /me gacks ) site at all. Best to stay under their radar.

    I may seem paranoid, but it seems preferable to incautious and dead.


    Forgive me for raising the point, but I believe they are already very much aware of fan based sites such as this one. Gleemax is intended to draw users away from places like this and towards a site controlled by corporate interests.

    I may be wrong, but it seems to me that WoTC has always had a love/hate relationship with user derived content based on copyrighted works. On one hand, it's kept people interested in their products and kept them afloat in rough times. On the other hand, the idea that someone is developing new material that's not under direct corporate control has to drive them bonkers.

    The plan seems to be to draw users onto their site. get them used to using their site and KEEP them on that site. If someone stumbles onto a useable idea, they're positioned to exploit that idea. If nobody comes up with anything worth using, then at least they've got users on their site and can push all sorts of advertising at them.

    Just my .02 cents. Take it for what you will.
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:35 pm  

    From Scott Rouse:
    (in answer to a question that specifically mentions Canonfire):

    I don't see fansite policy changing. IMO they serve a valuable function for promoting a product like D&D. In the past other companies effort to shut down fansites have really backfired from a consumer goodwill and PR standpoint. That being said we need to look at each and make sure that our interests are being maintained (an example is to have more clearly defined fansite policy).
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    Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:37 pm  

    I don't think there is any statement that if you use Greyhawk references in material posted on a site other than those of WotC or GLEEMAX that your **** gets busted. Look how many fan sites there are out there for Star Wars, Star Trek, or whatever. An IP infringement case of this kind would be laughable. Precedent is surely on the side of fan sites and this is the main reason why fan-made on-line Greyhawk content was never in danger, and is not in danger now.

    If somehow things still wound up in the crapper, there is always Greyfinch. Parody is legally protected. Cool

    Not sure if this Randy is being correctly interpreted/quoted, but here is a snippet of another post that caught my eye on the thread MerricB posted the link to:

    Post #2 by crazy_monkey1956:

    "Randy mentions that if a user puts, for example, a cool new magic card or RPG feat on their personal site, the user owns it but WotC can use it, even publish it.

    My question is, what sort of notification and/or compensation would WotC give the user if they do decide to utilize user generated content?"

    Canonfire, being the personal site of somebody, is therefore able to be stolen from wholesale and published by WotC then? I think not.
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:24 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    "Randy mentions that if a user puts, for example, a cool new magic card or RPG feat on their personal site, the user owns it but WotC can use it, even publish it.


    When Randy refers to personal sites in the blog, he is talking about users personal blog/content pages on gleemax, not external fan sites.

    The following comment from Scott Rouse, D&D Brand Manager, on the gleemax thread should put some concerns at ease.

    Scott Rouse wrote:

    I don't see fansite policy changing. IMO they serve a valuable function for promoting a product like D&D. In the past other companies effort to shut down fansites have really backfired from a consumer goodwill and PR standpoint. That being said we need to look at each and make sure that our interests are being maintained (an example is to have more clearly defined fansite policy).


    Edit:
    Oops, didn't see Merric had already posted that. It is worth clarifying that the comment was made in direct response to Maria's (Despotrix) question about fansites like CF under the gleemax rules.
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:57 am  

    Also... I almost want them to steal my Greyhawk material. Why? They'd then be publishing Greyhawk! :)

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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:01 am  

    Or your Greyhawk invention could be the next Drow of the Underdark...

    Slightly off topic, but the Greyhawk boards and all wizard boards for that matter now use the GLEEMAX domain name as part of their transition to...whatever it is. Users rejoice! :P
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:01 pm  
    Hmmm...

    This makes me wonder about things that have already been posted.
    I posted a whole series of Bloodline variants last year, they are still on the boards because I have them as subscribed threads, but what will happen if I decide to post them somewhere else, even use them in a book of my own someday.....

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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:35 pm  

    I certainly don't plan on going the route of Gleemax nor do I post on here much either, but I think people are probably getting bent out of shape for no reason.

    Although I don't think WotC is above stealing a great idea from someones blog and milking the cash cow with it, I think their primary motivation is to protect their own arses.

    Paizo has a similar policy when it pertains to posting content on their message boards and the reasoning is simply to protect themselves from those posters who might sue them later on claiming that a product idea was originally theirs regardless of whether the company was privy to the IP or not. It is similar why many companies won't accept unsolicited material, it simply protects them from having to defend their IP down the road if certain ideas or script treatments end up having too many points of similarity between them.
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:14 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:

    Paizo has a similar policy when it pertains to posting content on their message boards and the reasoning is simply to protect themselves from those posters who might sue them later on claiming that a product idea was originally theirs regardless of whether the company was privy to the IP or not. It is similar why many companies won't accept unsolicited material, it simply protects them from having to defend their IP down the road if certain ideas or script treatments end up having too many points of similarity between them.


    Yeah, I hear what your're saying....but Paizo doesn't radiate the same predatory vibe that I get when I see WoTC doing something. Assuming I ever get off my lazy rear end and actually start writing something for publication, I'd be VERY wary of any WoTC interest. Cautiously optimistic mind you, but wary just the same. Kind of like making a deal with the devil if you ask me - always read the fine print on the contract.

    Again, that's just my opinion, so take it for what you will. I could very well be wrong. Maybe we're all blowing this Gleemax thing out of proportion. For my part, I believe I shall be very cautious about what (if anything) I post on that site. And my reccomendation is that everyone else do the same.
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:32 pm  

    The difference bewteen a site covering their rear with a forum TOS and this business is Gleemax wants to encourage you to let them pick your brain. I have a feeling this will garner alot of cooperation from D&D board junkies who come up with class, monster, spell, etc ideas. The type of meta forums that make my head spin. Then there is the CCG boards, which I have NO idea what goes on there but I have a feeling they'll gladly fall over to be chosen by Gleemax's moderators (or should they be called scouts now?).
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    Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:54 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    The difference bewteen a site covering their rear with a forum TOS and this business is Gleemax wants to encourage you to let them pick your brain. I have a feeling this will garner alot of cooperation from D&D board junkies who come up with class, monster, spell, etc ideas. The type of meta forums that make my head spin. Then there is the CCG boards, which I have NO idea what goes on there but I have a feeling they'll gladly fall over to be chosen by Gleemax's moderators (or should they be called scouts now?).


    I have two problems with Gleemax:

    1. The Terms of Service are somewhat vague and seem slanted to cover standard issue corporate rapacious behavior.

    2. DRM is an excercise in futility. Every major encryption scheme that's hit the 'net has been broken within two weeks. To include MS Vista's supposedly unbreakable DRM encryption.

    Given the inevitable, I suspect that WoTC will deploy lawyers if/when someone blows off their TOS. And that's where it gets interesting.
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