Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - The Ancient Flanaess - Little Help?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    The Ancient Flanaess - Little Help?
    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:18 pm  
    The Ancient Flanaess - Little Help?

    Evening all,

    Tonight I pulled together all of the references I could find to ancient realms in the Flaness, human and demi-human. I got over two dozen hits but with few exceptions, I was not pulling names. Rather, I'd get things like "the dwarven kingdom in the Glorioles Mts" or descriptives, which are kinda names and kinda not, for example, "the long resident Flan tribes of . . ." etc. From these sorts of general or vague descriptions, I can cobble together a name that hits around the general idea but that's not the same as a full fledged canon name.

    I've got the usual commonly named suspects via-a-vis the south central and eastern Flan - Sulm (and absorbed states), Itar, Ahlissa. Of course, Vecna's Occluded Empire, the Isles of Woe (if that is even a name). But it gets pretty thin thereafter.

    Anybody have any names of old or ancient kingdoms (human or demi-human) in the Flanaess that come from canon? If this turns into an article, all helpers will be duely noted and thanked! Smile

    Thanks in advance.
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:32 pm  

    Did you check out the introduction to Return to White Plume Mountain? They mention a kingdom named Tostenhca. It is dated back to "some two thousand years ago" and that the wizard Keraptis was the ruler. In the original White Plume Mountain they talk about Keraptis "dating him at 1300 years ago), but don't mention the kingdom of Tostenhca.
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2584
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:34 pm  

    http://www.superunicorn.com/erik/2005/02/ancient-cultures-of-eastern-oerik.html GVD, I'm sure you might remember this list?

    Also recently in one of the greychats we discussed Veralos the city in the Riftcanyon from the LGJ's. Check. And within that article GLH dropped a placename called Nuria. I asked where Nuria was, he said to the north of Veralos. I said around Rookroost? He said no, farther north. I guess it was in/around the present day Wastes.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
    Posts: 404
    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:45 pm  
    Re: The Ancient Flanaess - Little Help?

    GVDammerung wrote:
    ... the Isles of Woe (if that is even a name).

    There is a Year Three Living Greyhawk adventure called Return to the Isles of Woe. It takes up the tale as presented in Greyhawk: the Adventure Begin's map book. The Codex of the Infinite Planes is rumored to have been penned on the Isles of Woe. And, Vecna is alleged to have ruled from his "spidered throne" on the Isles.

    Check out pages five and sixteen of the G:tAB for many more details. I'll dig up my copy of Return to the Isles of Woe in the meantime. I hope this helps.

    Don (Greyson)
    Nyrond Triad
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3250
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:31 am  



    This is a map I made a while back of the Aerdi lands circa -300 CY.

    The Lathu are mentioned on the Living Greyhawk Nyrondy website and also in a recent Oerth Journal article on Almor. They were Flan who lived in stone cities.

    This map puts the Necromancers of Trask along the Trask River, but the consensus seems to be that their civilization extended along the upper Flanmi as well. The Flan in these regions worshipped demon lords (Orcus, Demogorgon) and evil dragons (Tiamat?).

    The "Medegian Bladelands" are a very contentious part of canon. Technically they should be lumped in with the "Aerdi principalities."

    The name Onnwi for the Suel who settled what is now Onnwal is from Living Greyhawk.

    There's also the following map, evidently made by Gary Holian and Erik Mona, though Erik has since disavowed the notion that Vecna's empire ever extended into Urnst.



    I also decided personally to include the City State of Erlacor mentioned in "The Winged Folk" in Dragon #51 as part of the Flanaess 2000 years ago, somewhere near the Lortmils.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
    Posts: 32


    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:33 am  

    rasgon,

    are these fine maps available as downloads somewhere? Smile
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3250
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:22 am  

    Right click > Save as.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2007
    Posts: 208
    From: Vancouver

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:26 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    Did you check out the introduction to Return to White Plume Mountain? They mention a kingdom named Tostenhca. It is dated back to "some two thousand years ago" and that the wizard Keraptis was the ruler. In the original White Plume Mountain they talk about Keraptis "dating him at 1300 years ago), but don't mention the kingdom of Tostenhca.


    This place is also known as Skrellingshald, detailed Greyhawk Adventures pg.92-93.

    There is also the City of the Gods somewhere in Blackmoor(?)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:35 pm  

    Excellent help! Thank you! Please keep it coming if you think of anything! Happy
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1844
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:36 pm  

    It's disputed where exactly the Fabled City of Dar-Kesh Anam (Places of Mystery - LGJ 01) existed, "... placing it either in the lowlands of ancient Itar or in a vast mountain valley west of Mur."
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:43 pm  

    GVD:
    Do you need the name of the Dwarven Realm within the Glorioles? WOTC passed the name out once and I have it here somewhere, I can dig it out if you like?
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
    Posts: 32


    Send private message
    Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:24 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Right click > Save as.

    Happy Gracias amigo!
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3250
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:17 pm  

    I wrote an article on the Isles of Woe. I got the name of its capital from Dragon #294.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1431
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:49 pm  

    There are allusions that Acererak ruled a kingdom in the Tilvanot peninsula, but IIRC there weren't any names for it, right?

    There are the old tribal/language names (Ferral/Ferrond, etc.), which may prove useful as inspiration if nothing else.

    The place names from the various artifacts/relics from the 1e DMG include many possible other locations, though they're not necessarily pure GH canon in some cases, or even necessarily nation/tribe/x names (Tdon, Pesh, etc.), along with uncertain names from modules (we don't know from canon that Tsojcanth isn't a place vs. a person, for example).
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:14 am  

    The ancient dwarven kingdoms are described extensively in: The Runes of the Dwur (RD) timelines:
    http://hem.passagen.se/warlich/Greyhawk/World/the_world__greyhawk.html ->Dwarves Runes and Migrations
    and here:
    http://billg350.tripod.com/races_of_greyhawk.htm

    There's some great fan made material on the Dwur in GH tying the history from the Axe of Dwarvish Lords into the history of the Flanaess. Some of it is in french though. I found "Personnages Dwur" and "Les clans de Dwur" (detailed compilation and extrapolation on Dwur history) on my HD. Both are by Laurent Debelle and Stéphane Tanguay (Les Fauconniers = the Falconers, read Greyhawkers). I even found a half complete attempted translation into english of Les Clans Dwur.

    French versions available here: http://perso.netultra.net/ggf/biblio.htm
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:20 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    GVD:
    Do you need the name of the Dwarven Realm within the Glorioles? WOTC passed the name out once and I have it here somewhere, I can dig it out if you like?


    I would be interested to see if it fits with the Runes of the Dwur material.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:02 am  

    I'm have no idea how to create a link so here is the information on the Dwarven Kingdom of the Glorioles. I found it on the WOTC site before Gleemax came around. Hope it is of use to someone.

    If anyone cares to send me a pm explaining how to create links from canonfire to elsewhere on the Internet I would very much appreciate it.



    Glorvardum

    By Creighton Broadhurst, Paul Looby, Stuart Kerrigan

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgmp/20041123a
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:21 am  

    Thanks Eileen. (and pm sent)

    Here's a link to the article on the WotC site: Glorvardum article on WotC
    and a link to an expanded pdf on the Sunndi LG site: Glorvadum pdf

    Apparently Glorvardum is also mentioned in OJ #17 (in the Kalstrand article)
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 895
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:20 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    (we don't know from canon that Tsojcanth isn't a place vs. a person, for example)


    Well, Gary confirmed in 22 Questions that Tsojcanth was a person.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 05, 2003
    Posts: 64


    Send private message
    Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:57 am  

    Thanael wrote:
    The ancient dwarven kingdoms are described ...by Laurent Debelle and Stéphane Tanguay (Les Fauconniers = the Falconers, read Greyhawkers). I even found ...


    I remember when Stephane posted those to GreyTalk back in the day…god, that has been forever and a day ago! There were several of us then that were working on compiling all of the various timelines into one seamless canonical timeline and a second one which featured fan material. There were A LOT of discrepancies. One thing I do remember though, is that at some point someone posted a revised Dwur timeline that had a lot of the same information but different dates but IIRC it borrowed VERY heavilly from Tolkien.

    I lost track of how the project was going, as I lost internet for a while (I only had access to it at work back in those days). Eventually I did find a version of that timeline posted on some random pages and coincidentally enough there was also a copy of the future timeline that I had written. This document may be of some use to guys as it goes WAY back into history…however, I don’t know that I have any way of discerning what is canonical and what comes from fan sources or my greyhawk campaign of the time. If you are interested I would gladly see about figuring out a way to make it available. I haven’t looked at it in years though, so who knows…
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:00 am  

    I'd be interested for sure. May be you can make a new htread and post it there?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 05, 2003
    Posts: 64


    Send private message
    Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:46 pm  

    That might be possible. I don't know for sure though. It's pretty big, like 50+ pages. I had thought about making it available in a torrent or through rapidshare...depends upon response I guess.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 24, 2005
    Posts: 46
    From: Toronto

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:55 pm  

    Happy Thanks for the maps Rasgon, they really help put the ancient civilizations into context. Vecna, Ahlissa, and the ancient Flan are always being hinted about and alluded to, but its hard to conceptualize how they are related. These go a long way to sorting everything out in a way a written timeline can't (maybe I'm just a visual thinker).
    I'd love to see more historical maps like this.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3250
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:13 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:

    Well, Gary confirmed in 22 Questions that Tsojcanth was a person.

    The Tsojcanth-related adventure in the new digital Dungeon Magazine plays off of Gary Gygax's version of Tsojcanth, introducing a new twist to it. Basically, the story is as Gygax recounted it - Tsojcanth was an Oeridian archmage of great power who helped in the "further abridgment" of Tharizdun, working with various heroes of goodly persuasion. In this new version, though, he had a secret, and some ulterior motives.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1076
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:55 am  

    Is Krovis a Hero or Quasi Diety?
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
    Posts: 404
    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:03 am  
    Quasi Deity

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Is Krovis a Hero or Quasi Diety?

    Krovis is a quasi-deity according to the article "See the Pomarj - and Die!" in Dragon 167. Here are a few details from the article.
    Dragon 167, page 13 wrote:
    Krovis is of pure Flan stock (bronze skin, brown eyes, curly brown hair) and is known as a master military strategist as well as a skilled negotiator. His efforts in these matters will almost always be used toward the downfall of some empire or whatever else threatens to dominate the Flanaess. Krovis lives in a secret crypt somewhere beneath the Drachensgrab Hills, magically hidden from detection, and his avatar emerges only to prevent the conquest of the Flanaess by some group.


    Don
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.33 Seconds