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    Canonfire :: View topic - canon database
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    canon database
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2004
    Posts: 7
    From: Villa Calaster, environs of Greyhawk

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    Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:13 am  
    canon database

    I want to expand upon a comment that Anna made in the following thread where she stated a wish for a GH database to help in her endeavours at mapmaking, which for any out there who havent seen them are excellent by the way!

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=forums&file=viewtopic&t=1772

    Many of us don't have access to all of the Greyhawk material that has been published, specifically the out of print material. To embark upon writing new material for sharing with fellow afficionados and still stay within canon isnt easy.
    There seem to be plenty of indexes showing what exists but scouring the net for old modules, dungeon or dragon issues costs, and also never guarantees that the one piece of info you want is in the material you purchased.
    My question is, does anyone think that a GH database of previously published material is a workable idea (especially in the legal sense) or has any merit?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:56 am  
    Re: canon database

    Tarquin wrote:
    Many of us don't have access to all of the Greyhawk material that has been published, specifically the out of print material. To embark upon writing new material for sharing with fellow afficionados and still stay within canon isnt easy.
    There seem to be plenty of indexes showing what exists but scouring the net for old modules, dungeon or dragon issues costs, and also never guarantees that the one piece of info you want is in the material you purchased.
    My question is, does anyone think that a GH database of previously published material is a workable idea (especially in the legal sense) or has any merit?


    You have put your finger on Greyhawk and Canonfire's Achilles heel.

    The longer GH is out of print and the longer GH goes without a restart/renewal, the harder and harder it will be to have access to the source material.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazateer back in 2000 was the first full statement of the setting since From the Ashes in 1993(?). From the Ashes was the first full statement of the setting since the 83 boxed set. While partial treatments of the setting, e.g., Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, are nice, their limited scope means that, if you are not interested in that particular area of the setting, you are out of luck.

    Newer GH fans have a number of choices, none of them ideal.

    1st - Acquire the old, out of print material. This can be costly, however.

    2nd - Stick to the more readily available, and less costly, out of print or near current material. Become a specialist with the material you have available to you.

    Before going on, I want to stop and say that having everything is not essential. Yeah, its ideal, but it is not essential. Your imagination is as important to what you bring to the table as the stuff that has been on the table for decades. Canon should not limit creativity and a lack of access to all the canon materials out there should not get in your way or slow you down. That said, there is a natural tendency to be slowed by limited access to canon. Its something that may need to be individually worked around. Heck. As far as writing for CF or otherwise, put in a disclaimer if necessary that - "The foregoing is based on X, Y or Z and is not limited to existing canon."

    Okay, next.

    3rd - Pick up products related to GH and work from these alternate Hawks. In this category, I'd place the Gord books (not expensive and soon to be reprinted), EGG's Epic of Aerth (connected to GH via the Gord books) etc.

    4th - Similar to No. 3 above but IMO meriting its own discussion are the Castle Zagyg and Yggsburg materials readily available from Troll Lords Games.

    5th - Pick up the Paizo-Hawk Adventure Paths (available from Paizo) - Shackled City, Age of Worms or Savage Tide and use these as a starting point.

    To the point of a canon database, I think it would likely run afoul of Wizards IP unless it was substantially rewritten, which would take time. A better idea, I think, would be to ask/pressure Wotc to make the 83 Boxed set a free download on the Wizards.com website. Maybe the LGG and FtA could also be made free downloads there as well. As PDFs, this material would then be available to everyone for free. Heaven knows there is enough other free, out of print stuff available there.

    Perhaps, this last is the best solution.
    _________________
    GVD
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3246
    From: Michigan

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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:58 pm  

    I'm hoping this is what the wiki will eventually be - summaries of every character, place, deity, magic item, and everything else in Greyhawk, all fully annotated. Eventually.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2004
    Posts: 7
    From: Villa Calaster, environs of Greyhawk

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    Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:14 pm  

    There are some very good ideas there GVD thanks. I particularly liked your suggestion of attempting to convince Wotc to give access to online downloads, even if there was a nominal fee it would be worth it.
    The wiki project looks very promising too, lets hope that it reaches its full potential.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

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    Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:37 am  
    Re: canon database

    GVDammerung wrote:

    Newer GH fans have a number of choices, none of them ideal.

    1st - Acquire the old, out of print material. This can be costly, however.


    1a. Pick up the expensive out of print material in pdf form for $4. Pick up the less expensive material for cheap on ebay in used condition.

    Also:

    0. Pick up the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. It's cheap.
    0.a Pick up the free stuff. (e.g. WGR7 Ivid pdf etc)


    I think what is still needed is a sort of guide to what material exists and what it contains. There have been several threads that tried to provide such guidance: I think they need to be consolidated into a Beginner's Guide to Greyhawk Material. Also a centralized, easy to access review section similar to the Ravenloft review section on the Fraternityofshadows site would be good.

    I know there are reviews on canonfire, but they are imho not organized well. Compare this: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Reviews
    to this:
    http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/DrawingRoom.html


    Last edited by Thanael on Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 13, 2004
    Posts: 43
    From: St.Louis, Missouri USA

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    Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:04 am  

    GVD always has a way of putting things very well. Nice job again.

    Rasgon.... the wiki.... I agree it could be something great! How goes it?

    As a long time GH player who just took over the DM position a couple years ago, I acquired many of my items via not only PDF and ebay, but also used gaming auctions at our local stores and at GenCon... you'd be amazed how cheap you can get things when people are cleaning out their closets....

    "One mans junk.....!"
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 01, 2004
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    Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:43 pm  

    Some of the Living Greyhawk web sites had some good information like Furyondy, Veluna and Nyrond but I haven't checked them out in a while.

    Here's a link to Nyrond:
    http://www.nyrond.org/turbine/deity-show?deity=Pelor The gazetter has a lot of information.

    Asteriks are the A+ list material IMO for information to value for the cost of a pdf at $4 or $5. If I lost all my Greyhawk material due to a fire or flooding the things I would replace:

    ***The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has a lot of good material and is pretty cheap in hard copy or by pdf.

    ***9578 The Greyhawk Player's Guide has a lot of information and if I only had $4 or $5 this is what I'd get first because it has lots of basic information.

    $8 to $10 at this point.

    ***9577 The Adventure Begins.

    $12 to $15 at this point is hard to beat on Greyhawk material. .

    ***I like the City of Greyhawk and From the Ashes for Greyhawk for information on the City of Greyhawk and some of the changes over the years. Best value would be in pdfs. Lots of information regarding the city. As as much as I like the City of Greyhawk with the side adventures if I was only going to get one I'd get From the Ashes since it was the most current although I would recommend both as pdfs.

    ***The Marklands has a lot of good information about Furyondy and Veluna and Highfolk.

    $24 to $30 at this point.

    A List: Iuz the Evil, The City of Skulls, Rary the Traitor.

    B List would be 9025, The Worl of Greyhawk and A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting and The World of Greyhawk since most of their information is available in The Player's Guide to Greyhawk and the Living Greyhawk Gazetter and because there is a nice map here at Canonfire. I'd probably get some of the adventures as pdfs first before getting these.

    Nice to have:

    Bastion of Faith for a temple of Heironeous.

    Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is a lot of material for a pdf.

    I liked Return to the Keep on the Border, Against the Giants, Borderwatch and The Doomgrinder adventures but everyone has different tastes.

    I really liked Vecna Lives. Die Vecna Die and Dead Gods were very enjoyable as adventures but more of the Planescape setting.

    Slavers and The Scarlet Brotherhood have a lot of information for a pdf.

    I like the Hit Pointe and RPGNow because I have always had good experiences with them. Just go to the Greyhawk section to see most of the setting material.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

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    Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'm hoping this is what the wiki will eventually be - summaries of every character, place, deity, magic item, and everything else in Greyhawk, all fully annotated. Eventually.


    It's a nice start. However, I would suggest trying to make it less edition specific, or at least covering all editions. I've noticed NPC descriptions are strictly 3.5, which makes them of limited usefulness for old schoolers (such as me). For NPCs who show up in multiple sources, in multiple editions, I'd suggest listing each version. That is, if you want a truly complete GH wiki.

    This can also be applied to other things as well, such as deities & magic items unique to Greyhawk.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3246
    From: Michigan

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    Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:27 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    That is, if you want a truly complete GH wiki.


    You know it's editable by anyone, right? Go edit it right now!

    The NPC descriptions are only 3.5 when 3.5 statistics for the NPC exist, which is rare. More commonly, they're 1e or 2e (for example, Gord's class is listed as "thief-acrobat," since that's the class he had in the only edition that's mentioned him). I agree that mentioning classes in multiple editions is a good idea when applicable. Offhand, the only characters I can think of who've been statted in 1e, 2e, and 3e (either 3.0 or 3.5) are Tenser, Eclavdra, the Cat Lord, and Mordenkainen.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:14 pm  

    Return of the Eight provided stats on Tuerney the Merciless (Nalfeshnee), Jallarzi Sallavarian, Tenser, Warnes Starcoat, Theodain Eriason, Hautna Masq, Alhamazad the Wise along with a basic write up on Cymria of Celadon and Iggwilv (mostly history and level 25+).

    The Epic Handbook provide stats on Eclavdra, Lord Robilar, Robilar's Metal Destrier and Mordenkainen.

    Complete Adventurer brought back the Thief-Acrobat class as a 5 level PRC so it would be doable by maxing out Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble skills for normal entry with at least 2 levels in Rogue for Evasion.


    Last edited by castlemike on Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:09 pm  

    What I meant was I don't think Tuerny, Jallarzi, Warnes, Theodain, Hautna, or Alhamazad have been completely statted out (except for class and level in the LGJ #0) since then. Tuerny, Theodain, Hautna, and Alhamazad had never been statted out in 1e. Iggwilv has only been statted in 3.5.

    While it's true that nalfeshnees, Greyhawk dragons, and thief-acrobats exist in the current edition, some of the above-mentioned characters aren't exactly standard examples of their types.

    As the wiki is supposed to be limited to canon, it's impossible to say what Iggwilv's 1st edition character levels were (for example).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:26 pm  

    Sorry, I'm just happy to find NPC stats regardless of the edition for a general point in time since it provides a nice baseline for tweaking them to taste for a campaign.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
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    Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:27 pm  

    I'd love to be able to add in the 1st edition stats for many of those big name characters. In fact, I was looking for my Rogue's Gallery a few weeks ago, hoping to find those. But, I have not been able to find it. I've looked every place I can think of that it would be, and a few places that didn't make sense for it to be there (just in case). I'm beginning to think it may have been stolen. Damn shame too, since it had the 1st edition stats for so many of the characters we know so well in GH. (Bigby, Riggby, Tenser, Robilar, Serten, and several more)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:20 am  

    Vecna Lives has most of the stats for the Circle of Eight.
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