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    Canonfire :: View topic - What date was Castle Greyhawk destroyed?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    What date was Castle Greyhawk destroyed?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 14, 2007
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    Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:32 pm  
    What date was Castle Greyhawk destroyed?

    That is, converted from an intact castle to a ruin?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:35 pm  

    Zagig disappeared, the castle fell into disuse and was slowly overun by "vermin" of various types. Later products have various cults having moved in to take up residence. The castle wasn't destoyed, but it is derelict and not maintained by anyone so far as it is known. Most of it is intact.

    Once again, Google:

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Castle+Greyhawk&btnG=Search
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    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:36 pm  

    I guess it depends on what version of CG you're talking about, too: I haven't re-read WGR4 in years, but my (vague and quite possibly wrong) recollection is that they don't really deal with/address the main keep/castle/fortress of Greyhawk at all, and just cover the three towers, which is also the same model that Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk follows (which isn't a big surprise, since it's based on WGR4).

    Is my recollection off?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:58 pm  

    In Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg you will see the entire castle complex revealed: every wall, every tower, every gatehouse, every outbuilding; the wilderness surrounding, the caves that pock the bluff on which the complex is constructed, and the many points of ingress to the fabled dungeons below. And then of course there is the castle fortress, revealed in its entirety: every floor, its towers, its spires. These details will be found in the first of the Castle Zagyg boxed sets, The Upper Works.

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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
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    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

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    Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:38 pm  

    [
    Quote:
    "Ghul"]In Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg you will see the entire castle complex revealed: every wall, every tower, every gatehouse, every outbuilding; the wilderness surrounding, the caves that pock the bluff on which the complex is constructed, and the many points of ingress to the fabled dungeons below. And then of course there is the castle fortress, revealed in its entirety: every floor, its towers, its spires. These details will be found in the first of the Castle Zagyg boxed sets, The Upper Works.


    Any idea when this product will be out. I have seen the world created and read a little bit in the store. The feel reminded me a lot of early Greyhawk. I didn't purchase it though because I felt like it wouldn't be anything I could incoporate. Shortly after that the product seem to disappear from the shelf.

    Any idea how this version would match up with the Exped. version in regards to dungeon layout? Similar, completely different....etc.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:24 pm  

    I think the closest thing to an answer to AnimeFan's question is in Greyhawk Ruins, page 2:

    "...after just a century of occupation, the castle was mysteriously abandoned. Since then, the upper towers have crumbled and fallen, the grounds have succumbed to the erosion of time. What remains are the extensive underground mazes... In its prime, Castle Greyhawk consisted of three main towers. They have fallen into rubble, but the corresponding dungeon levels beneath them still exist."

    Zagig abandoned his castle some time before 430 CY (TAB, 59), so the towers probably crumbled sometime between then and the Citadel of Eight's first adventures in the 560s.

    There's no reason to think this happened all at once, in some cataclysm or magical attack. One could theorize that the release of the nine demigods destroyed the upper castle, but there's no evidence of this. I think it's just that Zagig's castle was built with magic, and as the magic that supported it faded it began to fall apart. This didn't happen all at once, but slowly over the course of about 130 years.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:50 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    [
    Quote:
    "Ghul"]In Gary Gygax's Castle Zagyg you will see the entire castle complex revealed<snip>


    Any idea when this product will be out. I have seen the world created and read a little bit in the store. The feel reminded me a lot of early Greyhawk. I didn't purchase it though because I felt like it wouldn't be anything I could incoporate. Shortly after that the product seem to disappear from the shelf.


    How you choose to incorporate the setting called The East Mark, which is notable for the Free Town of Yggsburgh, is of course the purview of the DM. The setting is small, not meant to be an entire "world" or continent by any stretch, but more likely to be used in a pre-existing campaign or your own home-brew if you so choose. It in fact comprises an area of about 1,500 miles, which would be about 1.5 hexes (assuming hexes are 30 miles). As it is located some ways away from the Free City of "Dunfalcon," it's been suggested that the East Mark area (if using the World of Greyhawk) be placed at the confluence of the Eery and Neen Rivers. As for the release date of the first boxed set, I would say spring 2008 is a safe bet, barring anything unforeseen.

    Quote:

    Any idea how this version would match up with the Exped. version in regards to dungeon layout? Similar, completely different....etc.


    Besides the fact that both adventures involve a fellow named Zagyg/Zagig, the two products have absolutely nothing to do with one another in design, tone, or layout. If the DM wishes to make some type of connection or melding of the two -- or any other past related product, be it serious or comical, then a bit of homework would have to be done, I'd think. For those who enjoy tinkering as such, I bet that could be fun. :)

    Hope that helps.
    --Jeff T.
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    Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:49 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    There's no reason to think this happened all at once, in some cataclysm or magical attack. One could theorize that the release of the nine demigods destroyed the upper castle, but there's no evidence of this. I think it's just that Zagig's castle was built with magic, and as the magic that supported it faded it began to fall apart. This didn't happen all at once, but slowly over the course of about 130 years.

    That would have to be the best reason. There is just not enough real time to account for the ruination (I bet Maldin would know what type of building rock breaks up fastest). Alternative ideas I've tried to think up:

    The 9 gods may not have caused enough damage but Vaprak and Nerull's struggles could have. Interior levels of the War Tower ruins were affected by these deities. From there on the surface it could have been domino theory.

    We know in GHRuins that dwarves have set up shop in the ruins of one of the towers. Perhaps these engineering masters at the behest of GH City strip-mined much of the upper castle stones for use in expanding City construction. Pre-cut stone blocks of this sort cannot be found any nearer than this!

    and my favorite:

    The Earth Stone may have played a part in Zagig's absence. Even though the Obelisk's job is to mask it magically, nothing was built in this region before Zagig found it. Perhaps the E-S can 'regenerate the land' around it by breaking down the local stone, eventually letting nature grow over and disguise the ruins.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:24 am  

    I really like the idea of strip-mining the castle for worked stone to use in the growing city. This could lead to great adventure hooks - a wall that has mysterious powers plagues a city block, a pair of earth mephits bound by Zagig tries to pry loose a stone at the base of a building to return it to its proper place, a powerful and/or cursed magical item is embedded inside a false stone and the thieves guild have a contract to get it to an evil wizard - guess at whose inn it is located? etc.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:10 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Perhaps these engineering masters at the behest of GH City strip-mined much of the upper castle stones for use in expanding City construction. Pre-cut stone blocks of this sort cannot be found any nearer than this!


    That makes a lot of sense. I really like that idea. Even if it wasn't the only reason Castle Greyhawk fell apart, it surely happened. No sense in letting good building materials go to waste.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:15 pm  

    I agree love the idea Smile

    It happens all over are world throughout history -

    Main reason for the plunder of old stone; finished material and less effort. I don't see the natives of the Flanaess being any less lazy then our ancestors.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Wichita, KS, USA

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    Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:55 pm  

    IIRC, the Castle was supposed to be cursed, so that would---perhaps---have been a deterrence to stripping the walls of their stones.

    I've been noodling on a new design for the castle itself, which will help to bridge the various products published over the years (and yet to be published, hopefully): http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog_environs-draft_01_low.jpg

    Inspired by Scott Casper's Tenser's saga tales, I'm also likely to work in some sort of ruined settlement in/around the castle, too (also abandoned, presumably, as part of the aforementioned curse).
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