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    Canonfire :: View topic - WotC Merges Forums
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    WotC Merges Forums
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    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
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    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

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    Wed May 21, 2008 7:49 pm  
    WotC Merges Forums

    Hey, all.

    Wizards of the Coast has merged its Other World forums into one mega-forum. They have combined everything from Birthright to Ravenloft into one forum called Other Published Worlds. Regrettably, Greyhawk was clumped with all of settings ever published except Eberron and Forgotten Realms, of course. All threads from both of the original Greyhawk board and the new 4E Greyhawk board were churned into this shapeless, massive forum that is now unmanageable and borders on insulting to the users of all the settings.

    It's disappointing and it mystifies me as to why some bonehead thought it would be a good idea to force Greyhawk users to share a forum with Ravenloft people, and with Dragonlance users, and vice-vesa, etc, etc...

    http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=720

    See the nightmare for yourself. I was pretty demoralized. It was hard enough getting over the end of Living Greyhawk. Now, my favorite setting has totally lost its identity at the very place where it should have been preserved as a unique creation. I've been pretty loyal to Wizards of the Coast. But, I have to now say that they are a poor custodian of a cornerstone of the Dungeons & Dragons brand and the hobby as a whole.

    Very frustrating and disappointing. I feel badly for the other campaign users that were similarly ambushed by this mind-boggling decision.

    Don (Greyson)
    Nyrond Triad
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    Wed May 21, 2008 8:15 pm  

    I enjoyed the "Well we could stab you in the leg or shoot and stab you in the leg, and we figured you'd rather just be stabbed in the leg" explanation.
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    Wed May 21, 2008 8:56 pm  

    wow. I mean....WOW. The only good term I can give for this forum would be censored so I guess I'll have to call it something like Frankenforum. Wow.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed May 21, 2008 10:37 pm  

    I've seen this as well. I think it shows a certain lack of respect to gamers who don't participate in their pet settings (Eberron and Realms). Not to say anything against those who appreciate those worlds, I'm glad they are getting attention, just wish we were in the same boat. Jumping ship to play some other more respected world (by WOTC standards) is out of the question. So to me, just one more poke by WOTC. Just that many more people they will alienate when they get tired of sorting through 5 worlds just to find mixed up thread of their favorite adventuring place.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Wed May 21, 2008 11:19 pm  

    This bodes well for sites that are dedicated to specific worlds.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed May 21, 2008 11:51 pm  

    I was already irritated with the Wotc site; "log in" every two weeks and "I was leaving their site".

    One less reason to visit the site; When Eberron was first released, the constant half-hearted attempts by some posters to promote Eberron as an rational extension of GH and other posters declaring all other worlds were now dead. I still wonder how many were true players and how many were Wotc employees.

    As I told one poster who called GH;
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    so yesterday as in stone age


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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu May 22, 2008 7:30 am  

    These unloved campaign worlds could flourish if WotC would lease their license to a 3rd party. Imagine a Paizo Greyhawk. I suppose WotC feels that another company producing new products would compete for the attention of their target audience against their new products for other worlds. But, it seems like they could do what they did with Dungeon and Dragon magazines: give them to a 3rd party to make successful and then refuse to renew the license in the hopes of claiming new converts to their brand name.

    Don
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    Thu May 22, 2008 8:50 am  

    IronGolem wrote:
    These unloved campaign worlds could flourish if WotC would lease their license to a 3rd party.


    Not gonna happen, IronGolem, as much as I would dearly love for it to. Ha$bro probably won't allow it, as that's IP with a lot of value for the brand. Hell -- they've already put the ToEE into their bastardized core world, and ripped out some of the Greyhawk pantheon to use as core gods. So any attempt at a 3P Greyhawk would have to untangle that, if a third party were even allowed to get their hands on the world.

    That, and I would not be surprised (after the fiasco with the GSL) that WotC/Ha$bro would probably try to put heavy restrictions/riders/thou shalt nots on what any third party can do with the world, if such a thing came to pass. They'd be on such a short leash that any step out of line'd make the sturm und drang over "The Book of Erotic Fantasy" look like a tempest in a teapot.

    Quote:
    Imagine a Paizo Greyhawk.


    Giving Greyhawk to Eric Mona and the the rest of the Paizo staff would be the best of all scenarios. But for the reason I mentioned above, I doubt it would happen. I hope to be proven wrong, though ;)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu May 22, 2008 11:35 am  

    Happy ...in conjunction with the later of "Crag's statement"...


    Ugh! Me Greyhawk Like!

    ...another nail for the WotC coffin, this continued alienation of "original" (primal Wink ) gamers, will lead to hard times... stone like times Laughing

    Sorry, couldn't help myself.


    AncientGamer Cool aka BusterBudd
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Thu May 22, 2008 4:09 pm  
    Shades of the Past

    In times such as these we must remember that TSR did the same thing back in the 90's. At which time, the internet became the medium for older campaign settings. Canonfire and the Oerth Journal will still be a viable outlet for gamers who wish to keep seeing Greyhawk content.

    As the Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal and a longtime fan of the setting myself, I have to add that I've considered converting to 4e but that time itsn't now. The Oerth Journal will remain a 3.5e and edition-lite e-zine at the very least until 2009, at which time we will have had plenty of time to review 4e and make a decision if its worth the conversion at all. I will add that I find the Pathfinder RPG a viable option over 4e at the present time as its a much easier transition for the traditional gamer. But thats my 2 cents.
    Stay tuned for more. =)
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu May 22, 2008 4:52 pm  
    Re: Shades of the Past

    Duicarthan wrote:
    The Oerth Journal will remain a 3.5e and edition-lite e-zine at the very least until 2009, at which time we will have had plenty of time to review 4e and make a decision if its worth the conversion at all.


    Maybe by the time they have a bard and monk class and some way of creating characters like the Old Lore bard. Without that, it'll be almost impossible to convert some characters. An assassin class and a half-orc race would be nice, too.

    I guess Necromancer Games is planning on releasing a product soon with all the "missing" stuff. Maybe that'll make 4e usable.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu May 22, 2008 6:14 pm  

    Duicarthan wrote:
    Quote:
    The Oerth Journal will remain a 3.5e and edition-lite e-zine at the very least until 2009, at which time we will have had plenty of time to review 4e and make a decision if its worth the conversion at all.


    Glad to hear it. Thank you! Should maybe post this on the Oerth Journal threads as well. I think people are likely to miss it here Rick.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Thu May 22, 2008 9:36 pm  

    This is not surprising. I have long ago turned away from WotC and what they have done to Dungeons and Dragons. I remember posting that I thought 4th ed looked like a World of Warcraft boardgame and I was flamed to hell and eventually banned for telling Keith Baker off.

    I literally think that there are more on-staff spindoctors on the WotC forums than actual fans of the game.

    I still stand against 4th ed, it just looks like crap.

    Pathfinder is going to bury 4th ed.

    I know I am NOT going to "clear off my bookshelf" as WotC so suggested.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri May 23, 2008 4:08 am  

    very sad, but im not surprised.

    wotc pick their cherrys very carefull...for example,i like colecting star wars miniatures, but they dont care about it as much as d&d miniatures. its very visible, so we (sw minis fans) are always ins second plan Confused
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri May 23, 2008 3:01 pm  

    The merging of these forums shows all of WotC's intent as to the lack of serious development of any worlds other than the ones they deem as core. I have tried to be optimistic in hoping (even though I knew otherwise) that they might at least try to work elements of 4e into something compatable with Greyhawk, but that time has passed. This merging of forums is like a door slam to all those who wish to explore other campaign worlds.

    I think the future of Greyhawk lies with the Pathfinder RPG. The very idea of having an open playtest is exactly what the RPG hobby should be. I have some issues with the system as it is now, but I think all in all after the rough spots have been smoothed out, this will be an excellent system.

    Alas, if only WotC would sell the right th Greyhawk to another company, perhaps Paizo, but I do not think this will happen.
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    Fri May 23, 2008 4:43 pm  

    While it is annoying that Greyhawk no longer has a dedicated forum on the WotC boards, the truth of the matter is that there had not been much of interest posted on their Greyhawk forum in a long, long time. I find it hard to get worked up on loosing something that no longer had much value anyway. Canonfire forums have long been a much better place to discuss Greyhawk.
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    Fri May 23, 2008 4:51 pm  

    I seriously doubt that Pathfinder will do better than 4e. Fourth edition isn't the sort of fantasy game I'm interested in playing, but there are lots and lots of folks who are into exactly that kind of thing. Pathfinder, meanwhile, is going to be a niche game by a 3rd party publisher without the kind of advertising space or retail clout that Hasbro/WotC has. Do you really think Pathfinder RPG is going to be on the shelves of Borders or Barnes and Noble like D&D is and will be?

    Pathfinder RPG isn't just competing against 4e. Its competing against everyone's existing 3e plus the other preexisting 3e clone/variant. (Hackmaster, Castles and Crusades, True20, etc). Pathfinder will quite likely be a great success for Paizo, but a great success for Paizo is not any sort of industry shattering event.

    Most D&D players who don't like 4e will just stick with 3e. The fact is that the bulk of the audience doesn't buy a lot of modules or 3rd party supplements or even the WotC core supplements. That's the main reason why WotC is trying to rebrand every release as "core", because there is a major difference between sales of a "Players' Handbook" and sales of "The Complete Warrior" and even more of a drop off to "The FR Campaign Sourcebook".
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    Fri May 23, 2008 6:31 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I seriously doubt that Pathfinder will do better than 4e. Fourth edition isn't the sort of fantasy game I'm interested in playing, but there are lots and lots of folks who are into exactly that kind of thing. Pathfinder, meanwhile, is going to be a niche game by a 3rd party publisher without the kind of advertising space or retail clout that Hasbro/WotC has. Do you really think Pathfinder RPG is going to be on the shelves of Borders or Barnes and Noble like D&D is and will be?

    Pathfinder RPG isn't just competing against 4e. Its competing against everyone's existing 3e plus the other preexisting 3e clone/variant. (Hackmaster, Castles and Crusades, True20, etc). Pathfinder will quite likely be a great success for Paizo, but a great success for Paizo is not any sort of industry shattering event.

    Most D&D players who don't like 4e will just stick with 3e. The fact is that the bulk of the audience doesn't buy a lot of modules or 3rd party supplements or even the WotC core supplements. That's the main reason why WotC is trying to rebrand every release as "core", because there is a major difference between sales of a "Players' Handbook" and sales of "The Complete Warrior" and even more of a drop off to "The FR Campaign Sourcebook".


    The thing about Pathfinder, is that everyone who has a current collection of 3.5 books already has bought into the game. Pathfinder means you do not have to buy anything new, seeing as you can get the game for free.

    And I have seen BESM on the bookshelves of Border and Barnes and Noble, and that game is a sad joke.
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    Fri May 23, 2008 7:59 pm  

    Uhh, I don't see where you get the game for free. Unless you mean the playtest editions.

    And I haven't the faintest idea what BESM is. You do, once in a while, see something that isn't D&D or a movie spinoff in the games section, but its rare.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat May 24, 2008 3:52 am  

    i think BESM is Big Eyes Small Mouth. a anime based rpg
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    Sat May 24, 2008 7:49 pm  

    Greyson wrote:
    All threads from both of the original Greyhawk board and the new 4E Greyhawk board were churned into this shapeless, massive forum that is now unmanageable and borders on insulting to the users of all the settings. . . . See the nightmare for yourself.


    mortellan wrote:
    . . . I'll have to call it something like Frankenforum.


    ROFL!!!! Laughing Well put, Gentlemen!!! Happy

    OleOneEye wrote:
    While it is annoying that Greyhawk no longer has a dedicated forum on the WotC boards, the truth of the matter is that there had not been much of interest posted on their Greyhawk forum in a long, long time. I find it hard to get worked up on loosing something that no longer had much value anyway. Canonfire forums have long been a much better place to discuss Greyhawk.


    This is my opinion, as well.

    Telemachus wrote:
    The merging of these forums shows all of WotC's intent as to the lack of serious development of any worlds other than the ones they deem as core. I have tried to be optimistic in hoping (even though I knew otherwise) that they might at least try to work elements of 4e into something compatable with Greyhawk, but that time has passed. This merging of forums is like a door slam to all those who wish to explore other campaign worlds.


    I think this is a fair assesment, too.

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    . . . I think it shows a certain lack of respect to gamers who don't participate in their pet settings (Eberron and Realms). . . . So to me, just one more poke by WOTC. Just that many more people they will alienate when they get tired of sorting through 5 worlds just to find mixed up thread of their favorite adventuring place.


    And this sums it up nicely. Or not so nicely if you are a fan of one of the "merged" settings.
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    Mon May 26, 2008 12:58 pm  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    While it is annoying that Greyhawk no longer has a dedicated forum on the WotC boards, the truth of the matter is that there had not been much of interest posted on their Greyhawk forum in a long, long time. I find it hard to get worked up on loosing something that no longer had much value anyway. Canonfire forums have long been a much better place to discuss Greyhawk.


    As Ole said. Smile

    I am glad so many WotC-board members hang out here as well, so the old family doesn't disband!
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    Tue May 27, 2008 9:49 am  

    Does anyone find it interesting that there are more posts on WOTC's own site for "other worlds," than for all the supported settings? And this with the constant trumpeting of products for the supported worlds.

    BTW, for all of us "old school," gamers. We aren't the old school (unless you are approximately 70 years of age,); we are barely in the middle grades. The "old school's" board consisted of thousands of painted minatures recreating the battle of Agincourt. The point of this is simple: WOTC is chasing a younger crowd, but the reality is that not long from now, those who are younger will have the same complaints that we do.

    I have claimed for years that WOTC's business model is flawed. I think this will continue to be played out. I doubt there will be a 5th edition. Rather, HASBRO will have skimmed what short term profits they can out of the market, their IP will be considerable devalued and their core customers will be alienated.

    Let them run. They think they are smarter than the rest, and that they are remaking the world. Rarely in business is this true, even though it works in the spreadsheet.

    Gygax and Arneson remade the gaming world; they provided something people want, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We dont have to do anything, but enjoy our games and talk amongst ourselves. Eventually WOTV will see it our way. Not because we are right, but because we are the customer, and all who are coming after will have the same gripes that we do. Until WOTC understands this, they are rushing to the dustbin of history.

    Simple case in point: I enjoyed the most recent OJ more than any recent product I have, with the possible exception of the Dungeon Adventures to which it is an enhancement. Duithcairn and his staff of talented "free," lancers can trump the multi-million dollar efforts of WOTC, and such information should make the leadership of WOTC/Hasbro break into cold sweat.
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    Tue May 27, 2008 10:41 am  

    Smile Basic policy is: I bought a product from TSR long time ago, and I am in principle interested in any more compatible supplements the current CP holder releases. If they don''t want my money any more, I don't see where this bothers me at my gaming table.
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    Tue May 27, 2008 10:54 am  

    This should not come as a surprise to anybody. WotC has explicitly said they want to consciously undo the sort of "sub-brand loyalty" that having distinct gaming worlds encourages. They don't want to have "Greyhawk players" or "Realms players" or "Eberron players"; they just want to have "D&D Players". In line with that new philosophy, they don't want to come out with "Greyhawk modules", etc. and I'll bet the "3 products a year, 1 setting per year" policy was the result of some internal battles within Hasbro and WotC that will never see the light of day.

    Joe
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    Wed May 28, 2008 10:05 pm  

    Just to put it in perspective, I visted the Other Published Worlds Forum at WOTC. Currently they have 548 pages of different threads. Of these pages, 547 each have 25 individual threads relating to the other worlds such as Greyhawk, Planescape, Dragonlance, Mysteria, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc. the 548th page has 13 threads. That is a whopping 13,688 threads we need to wade through to find the Greyhawk material. Such fun!
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:50 am  

    IronGolem wrote:
    These unloved campaign worlds could flourish if WotC would lease their license to a 3rd party. Imagine a Paizo Greyhawk. I suppose WotC feels that another company producing new products would compete for the attention of their target audience against their new products for other worlds. But, it seems like they could do what they did with Dungeon and Dragon magazines: give them to a 3rd party to make successful and then refuse to renew the license in the hopes of claiming new converts to their brand name.


    Are you aware that both Ravenloft and Dragonlance were licenced out to third party publishers in exactly the way you suggest? So this is an idea that WotC did do - they just didn't do it for Greyhawk.

    I didn't really follow Ravenloft, so I don't know how well it was recieved. However, I do know that Dragonlance did amazingly well. DL was licenced to Soverign Press (later taken over by Margaret Weis Productions). They had one of the original DL authors onboard (MW) and worked closely with the fan community leaders (known as the Whitestone Council) and the leading fan website (Dragonlance Nexus).

    Both of the licences were taken back by WotC when they expired. So the two companies that licenced these settings can't sell them any more. But you can still find some of their products in the shops. The Dragonlance licence is expiring this month, so you might even be able to buy PDFs if you do it today. (Either that or the deadline was yesterday and you are out of luck! Sad ) There is one Ravenloft product that missed the Ravenloft licence deadline and WotC wouldn't let the publishers sell it. But they did allow them to give it away for free, and it is now available as a free PDF download. (I can post the link if you want to check the quality of the 3rd party Ravenloft stuff.)

    (You can also get Ravenloft and Dragonlance products in the shop. And if you have problems try Noble Knight Games.)

    If you have a browse through these products, you will see the sort of quality that 3rd edition World of Greyhawk books could have had.

    Given that the RPGA had their Living Greyhawk thing going, I would have thought that it would have been in WotC's interest to move LG over to a system that used more PrCs and feats (instead of getting people to pay Turn Units to belong in organisations). TUs make material less compatible with generic D&D, so hurt sales from non-RPGA players. If Paizo and the RPGA had some sort of joint deal they could have worked together and shared the profits. I bet that Living Greyhawk could have sold 5 regional sourcebooks (for the 5 metaregions), by requiring players to have a copy to access PrCs and feats.

    The Living Greyhawk leadership could have helped to get people to playtest all the stuff that went into any Greyhawk books, so this would have reduced costs. LG players would have given any books guarenteed sales and WoG fans and other D&D fans would have boosted those sales figures*. On top of that Paizo could have given us a Monsters of Greyhawk book (with all the unconverted Greyhawk monsters as well as some new ones) and a Races of Greyhawk book (similar to Races of Faeron and Races of Ansalon). If this lot sold well, they could have just kept chugging them out - one at a time.

    * = I'm not an RPGA member, but would have bought a set of 5 metaregion books (along with a City of Greyhawk book).

    It could have been great. And all of these customers would be buying PHBs (and maybe DMGs and several MMs).

    I'm a fan of Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms**. As far as I'm concerned D&D without all three of these settings is like a tricycle with one wheel. It just doesn't do the job. MWP added a second wheel to the 3rd edition tricycle, but without Greyhawk (as a proper campaign setting) I view 3rd edition D&D as an unfinished product.

    ** = Along with Spelljammer and a few other TSR campaign settings.
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