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    Canonfire :: View topic - Creating your own Castle GH
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    Creating your own Castle GH
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:36 am  
    Creating your own Castle GH

    I've lucked out recently. I found a fantastic gaming group and we have been playing montly sessions of first edition AD&D. Our current campaign wrapped up last month, and after a couple of months of Star Wars d6, we plan on jumping into classic D&D. That's where Castle Greyhawk and I come in.
    I've done a few searches, both through my personal collection, and online - and here's what I've come up with . . . there's not a lot detailing the castle! There are a few tidbits here and there, as well as a couple of whole-cloth renditions of the original, but nothing that strikes me as a lot of info on the 'original game'. So, I guess what I'm asking for, is . . are there more sources? Here's what I've found so far.
    WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins - a reimagining of the original, great for picking and choosing ideas, atrocious maps
    The Adventure Begins and Players Guide to Greyhawk- this contains tidbits and some history, as well as a couple of maps of the exterior
    Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk - like WGR1, this has some interesting encounters and quests that can be converted, but nothing spectacular. It has a brief overview of most of the levels
    City of Greyhawk boxed set - info on the city and sewers, plus the area around it and possible connections to the dungeons.

    I have also perused Grodogs website (awesome) and found an excellent thread on the Acaeum. Am I missing any major references? Thanks for everyones help in advance . . .
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    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:19 am  

    Well, one glaring omission comes to mind. Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:26 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Well, one glaring omission comes to mind. Wink


    Thanks DMPrata. I don't have access to this yet (gah!). How well does it 'click' with GH lore?
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    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:13 am  

    Here are a few more to consider...

    TSR 1015 The World of Greyhawk
    TSR 1032 Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms (there has to be a link from Castle GH in there somewhere, besides EGG endorsed the original Oriental Adventures book)
    TSR 1043 City of Greyhawk
    TSR 2018 Oriental Adventures (see Kara-Tur above)
    TSR 2023 Greyhawk Adventures
    TSR 9025 World of Greyhawk Folio (before you say this is redundant, it does include some extra tidbits such as Runes...)
    TSR 9072 EX1 Dungeonland (from original Castle GH)
    TSR 9073 EX2 Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (from original Castle GH)
    TSR 9112 WG5 Mordenkainenís Fantastic Adventure
    (from original Castle GH...in fact, you could include the later Dungeon articles expanding on Castle Maure by RJKuntz:
    Dungeon #112 Maure Castle, "Levels 1-4", by R.J. Kuntz & E.G. Gygax
    Dungeon #124 Maure Castle, "Chambers of Antiquities"
    Dungeon #139 Maure Castle, "The Greater Halls" )
    GenCon #40, Maure Castle, "Warlock's Walk" (published online)
    TSR 9153 WG6 Isle of the Ape (from original Castle GH)
    TSR 9222 WG7 Castle Greyhawk (zany alternate reality levels?)
    TSR 9292 WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins
    TSR 9577 Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins
    TSR 9578 A Players Guide to Greyhawk
    WOC 1092572 Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
    ZTG 4505 Dave Arnesonís Blackmoor: The Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor
    (some version of this may have been in, or inspired by, the original EGG/Arneson/Kuntz campaigns...I would include it at least for the homage to "old school" D&D)
    CU **** Garden of the Plantmaster (a version was in original Castle GH)
    *** **** To The City of Brass (published online)
    K&C 2212 Sir Robilar's City of Brass (there HAS to be a link in the castle)
    PPP **** The Original Living Room (from original Castle GH)
    PPP RJK1 Bottle City (from original Castle GH)
    TLG 8050 CZ1: Yggsburgh
    TLG 8051 CZ2: Castle Zagyg - Upper Works

    If you need more for Greyhawk, please check my list in the Greyhawk Librarium thread...
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3289

    In regards to the Troll Lords' Castle Zagyg, EGG himself said it wasn't the exact original campaign, but an evolution of what Castle Greyhawk was and what it had become throughout its many incarnations of playing with it over the years. None of us will ever be able to play in the original GH, but I think this would be a very good alternate to include in any GH campaign. The amount of material and detail is staggering.

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf


    Last edited by Grendelwulf on Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:18 am  

    MIchael, I've got a ton of collected quotes from EGG and others who actually gamed in the original campaign in my "Greyhawk Lore Project." They mostly deal either with the Castle itself or the Greyhawk campaign in general.

    I need to post an updated file, but the first one is here:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2008/05/greyhawk-lore-project.html

    Joe
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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:00 am  

    MichaelSandar wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    Well, one glaring omission comes to mind. Wink


    Thanks DMPrata. I don't have access to this yet (gah!). How well does it 'click' with GH lore?


    From what I've seen of the module so far, quite well. EGG and Jeff Talanian tried to make it Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. It's very easy to integrate back into the existing WoG geography and there are loads of subtle and not-so-subtle appearances by renamed GH organizations, characters and deities (for instance in one part of the castle, you get to meet some decidedly pale, blond shaolin-monk fellows who are acting out of racist purity and who wear snazzy red robes...now what are those guys called again? :) )

    Of course, since this is the original WoG, depending on your view on canon YMWV.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:55 pm  

    Pat_Payne wrote:
    MichaelSandar wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    Well, one glaring omission comes to mind. Wink


    Thanks DMPrata. I don't have access to this yet (gah!). How well does it 'click' with GH lore?


    From what I've seen of the module so far, quite well. EGG and Jeff Talanian tried to make it Greyhawk with the serial numbers filed off. It's very easy to integrate back into the existing WoG geography and there are loads of subtle and not-so-subtle appearances by renamed GH organizations, characters and deities (for instance in one part of the castle, you get to meet some decidedly pale, blond shaolin-monk fellows who are acting out of racist purity and who wear snazzy red robes...now what are those guys called again? :) )

    Of course, since this is the original WoG, depending on your view on canon YMWV.


    oh, btw, does the scarlet b. reallly looked like blond "shaolin monks", like the miniature from d&d minis?
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:23 pm  

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    TSR 1032 Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms (there has to be a link from Castle GH in there somewhere, besides EGG was author to the original Oriental Adventures book)


    Though Gygax's name is on the cover, Oriental Adventures was designed by David "Zeb" Cook. Gary Gygax is co-credited with the "original concept" and he wrote the book's preface, but he isn't the author. See the book's credits on page 2.
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    Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:08 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    Though Gygax's name is on the cover, Oriental Adventures was designed by David "Zeb" Cook. Gary Gygax is co-credited with the "original concept" and he wrote the book's preface, but he isn't the author. See the book's credits on page 2.


    Okay, I will revise my statement to "endorsed by EGG"
    based on page 3 of the OA book:

    The year 1980 had not arrived when I began thinking about a
    version of the AD&D game that would feature Oriental campaigns
    and characters. Good intentions aside, it has taken this long to
    achieve the desired goal, and enlisted the talents of both David
    "Zeb" Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval in order to arrive as
    early as 1985. Because the game system has changed over the
    intervening years, the exact nature of the approach taken herein
    differs from that which was originally envisioned. I am convinced
    that the alteration is for the better, and as you partake of the information
    herein, and put it into play. I am as certain you will concur.
    Oriental Adventures is a completely new resource for the AD&D
    game system.
    --Gary Gygax, September 1985


    If EGG could have China in his original GH, then this was the closest it came to coming out in print back then.

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
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    Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:21 am  

    Thanks all! There's some good stuff in here that I will be using to mine for more ideas. I've managed to map out the dungeon level of the first tower, as well as some sewer connections from the city. I'll keep questions coming as I have them! Wink
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    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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    Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:14 am  

    rossik wrote:

    oh, btw, does the scarlet b. reallly looked like blond "shaolin monks", like the miniature from d&d minis?


    Some of them -- the SB is pretty much made up, in its higher echelons, of monks and assassins. In other words, screw wit the Father of Obedience at your peril Wink
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:58 pm  

    Grendelwulf wrote:
    rasgon wrote:

    Though Gygax's name is on the cover, Oriental Adventures was designed by David "Zeb" Cook. Gary Gygax is co-credited with the "original concept" and he wrote the book's preface, but he isn't the author. See the book's credits on page 2.


    Okay, I will revise my statement to "endorsed by EGG"
    based on page 3 of the OA book:

    The year 1980 had not arrived when I began thinking about a
    version of the AD&D game that would feature Oriental campaigns
    and characters. Good intentions aside, it has taken this long to
    achieve the desired goal, and enlisted the talents of both David
    "Zeb" Cook and Francois Marcela-Froideval in order to arrive as
    early as 1985. Because the game system has changed over the
    intervening years, the exact nature of the approach taken herein
    differs from that which was originally envisioned. I am convinced
    that the alteration is for the better, and as you partake of the information
    herein, and put it into play. I am as certain you will concur.
    Oriental Adventures is a completely new resource for the AD&D
    game system.
    --Gary Gygax, September 1985


    If EGG could have China in his original GH, then this was the closest it came to coming out in print back then.

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf



    more like japan than china, IMO
    CF Admin

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    Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:50 pm  

    Just to clarify:

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    TSR 9112 WG5 Mordenkainenís Fantastic Adventure
    (from original Castle GH...in fact, you could include the later Dungeon articles expanding on Castle Maure by RJKuntz:
    Dungeon #112 Maure Castle, "Levels 1-4", by R.J. Kuntz & E.G. Gygax
    Dungeon #124 Maure Castle, "Chambers of Antiquities"
    Dungeon #139 Maure Castle, "The Greater Halls" )
    GenCon #40, Maure Castle, "Warlock's Walk" (published online)


    The Maure Castle (and side-level WG5) materials were not actually part of the original version of Castle Greyhawk (created only by Gary), and I'm not sure if they were part of the expanded Castle or not: they were originally created by Rob as part of his Castle El Raja Key. I think they may have in fact been folded into the expanded castle, but would have to go back to my notes to confirm/deny with any certainty.

    In any event, the levels are eminently addable to Castle GH, so do go for it :D

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    ZTG 4505 Dave Arnesonís Blackmoor: The Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor
    (some version of this may have been in, or inspired by, the original EGG/Arneson/Kuntz campaigns...I would include it at least for the homage to "old school" D&D)


    I wouldn't bother buying this edition of Castle Blackmoor: it's a reprint of the JG First Fantasy Campaign materials, and then had 10 very lackluster levels added on afterward. Spend your money on the JG version instead.

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    CU **** Garden of the Plantmaster (a version was in original Castle GH)
    *** **** To The City of Brass (published online)
    K&C 2212 Sir Robilar's City of Brass (there HAS to be a link in the castle)


    IIRC, Robilar wandered into the City of Brass on his way back from China.
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    Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:37 am  

    grodog wrote:

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    ZTG 4505 Dave Arnesonís Blackmoor: The Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor
    (some version of this may have been in, or inspired by, the original EGG/Arneson/Kuntz campaigns...I would include it at least for the homage to "old school" D&D)


    I wouldn't bother buying this edition of Castle Blackmoor: it's a reprint of the JG First Fantasy Campaign materials, and then had 10 very lackluster levels added on afterward. Spend your money on the JG version instead.


    Wow. I never knew about this one. The prices listed on Acaeum are pretty high though ($91 for a NM copy). If the newer version is just a reprint maybe it would be more economical to buy that?
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    Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:13 am  

    rossik wrote:

    more like japan than china, IMO

    It all depends on on how you use it.

    grodog wrote:

    The Maure Castle (and side-level WG5) materials were not actually part of the original version of Castle Greyhawk (created only by Gary), and I'm not sure if they were part of the expanded Castle or not: they were originally created by Rob as part of his Castle El Raja Key. I think they may have in fact been folded into the expanded castle, but would have to go back to my notes to confirm/deny with any certainty.

    Ah, you are correct. RJK's Castle Maure was for EGG to play in. Although, according to RJK's bibliography, some of the material was used in the second version of GH.

    grodog wrote:

    I wouldn't bother buying this edition of Castle Blackmoor: it's a reprint of the JG First Fantasy Campaign materials, and then had 10 very lackluster levels added on afterward. Spend your money on the JG version instead.

    I thought this would be an economical choice, as the JG version can sometimes be hard to run across. And this one is quickly accessible for sale through RPGNow as a .pdf. I agree with you about the 'added' levels...they need a little tweeking.

    grodog wrote:

    IIRC, Robilar wandered into the City of Brass on his way back from China.

    I really need to go over my GH notes better.
    Yet, a link to CB is certainly feasible.

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
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    Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:28 am  

    Grendelwulf wrote:
    rossik wrote:

    more like japan than china, IMO

    It all depends on on how you use it.



    how come?

    all classes are from japanese story/legends, the honor system is basd on japanese concepts, the majority of the monsters are japanes folklore,, almost all weapons and armors are japanese, and so on.

    some minor names are chinese, but most of the work references are japanese.
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    Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:50 pm  

    rossik wrote:

    how come?

    all classes are from japanese story/legends, the honor system is basd on japanese concepts, the majority of the monsters are japanes folklore,, almost all weapons and armors are japanese, and so on.

    some minor names are chinese, but most of the work references are japanese.


    A little investigation of chinese story/legends will reveal warriors, priests, sorcerors & thieves. Not to mention monsters, albeit more of the nature-based variety. Exploring the language will bring about what you may wish to call the classes and creatures. Not everything historical plays well in a fantasy role-playing game, so aside from digging into some specific types of chinese weapons and armor, I believe the OA's armory can still be used. After all, it isn't our real Earth's China/Japan. It is an Oerthlike Orient; a mesh of chinese, japanese, korean, and mongolian.

    As for the honor system of the OA book, it is based on "power, wealth and position" within its society. Now, Japan and China shared some elements in their early feudal philosophies, whether you call it the "Bushido Code" or the "Way of the Warrior". To integrate chinese concepts into this more, a sense f honor needs to flow from a stronger sense of spiritual awareness and a balance of the self with the world around one's self. Now, I won't get into a long analysis of Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism etc, but overall the strength of honor is determined by one's spirit, thoughts, and deeds.

    Granted, these ideas are reflected in my own mental mirror,
    so they are actually closer to me than they may appear to anyone else.

    If time allows, I may start a thread on exactly what would define a GH orient. Hmm, an interesting prospect indeed...

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
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    Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:39 am  

    Grendelwulf wrote:
    rossik wrote:

    how come?

    all classes are from japanese story/legends, the honor system is basd on japanese concepts, the majority of the monsters are japanes folklore,, almost all weapons and armors are japanese, and so on.

    some minor names are chinese, but most of the work references are japanese.


    A little investigation of chinese story/legends will reveal warriors, priests, sorcerors & thieves. Not to mention monsters, albeit more of the nature-based variety. Exploring the language will bring about what you may wish to call the classes and creatures. Not everything historical plays well in a fantasy role-playing game, so aside from digging into some specific types of chinese weapons and armor, I believe the OA's armory can still be used. After all, it isn't our real Earth's China/Japan. It is an Oerthlike Orient; a mesh of chinese, japanese, korean, and mongolian.

    As for the honor system of the OA book, it is based on "power, wealth and position" within its society. Now, Japan and China shared some elements in their early feudal philosophies, whether you call it the "Bushido Code" or the "Way of the Warrior". To integrate chinese concepts into this more, a sense f honor needs to flow from a stronger sense of spiritual awareness and a balance of the self with the world around one's self. Now, I won't get into a long analysis of Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism etc, but overall the strength of honor is determined by one's spirit, thoughts, and deeds.

    Granted, these ideas are reflected in my own mental mirror,
    so they are actually closer to me than they may appear to anyone else.

    If time allows, I may start a thread on exactly what would define a GH orient. Hmm, an interesting prospect indeed...

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf


    Grendelwulf, i think we dont undertsand each other :)

    im talking about what is written in the book.
    i know you have taoist priests with their magic, lin kuei as the chinese ninja, wudan sword fighters, shaolin monks, caravan guards and so on. you have dao, jian, qiang, gun, sanjie gun, pu dao, and a lot of weapons.
    fi you use wuxia elements then, sky is the limit!

    and they all have japanese equivalents.

    my point is that the OA books was writen using japanese material for most of it.

    can you adapt to chinese/korean/other culture?

    sure, no problem.
    but the book have like 89% japanese references at least
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    Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:30 am  

    Grendelwulf wrote:

    Ah, you are correct. RJK's Castle Maure was for EGG to play in. Although, according to RJK's bibliography, some of the material was used in the second version of GH.


    In particular, I could see the Chambers of Antiquities (with the Maure-specific names taken out) as part of the castle.
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    Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:23 pm  

    Mods, please forgive me for my second full OT post...

    rossik wrote:

    Grendelwulf, i think we dont understand each other :)

    Yes, we do. We are like two blind men looking at the same elephant from different parts. I was looking passed the challenge of adaptation; I did not consider that a difficulty.
    rossik wrote:

    my point is that the OA books was writen using japanese material for most of it.

    can you adapt to chinese/korean/other culture?

    sure, no problem.
    but the book have like 89% japanese references at least

    Absolutely right. I agree. However, references and cultural themes are actually only half the book. Rule mechanics, etc are the rest. Much if not all of them can still be used. Sure, you would be taking off some skin and sinew, but the bare bones are still there to work with. OA can be rebuilt, a few skin grafts here and there. Yes, you would have to change the theme material, absolutely. I wasn't considering that to be a real problem for the DM to use it. Maybe I am just being too optimistic.

    Of course, the whole idea of adapting it to a chinese theme is moot if the DM just has a Castle Greyhawk gate going to japanese lands instead.

    Hey, I mentioned GH! It's not OT anymore! Happy

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
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    Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:35 pm  

    so now we agree, theres no dificulty, once you adapt the skin.

    i think castle grreyhawk could led you to all sorts of "worlds", like the islpe of apes kind of adventure, so why not china/japan, greece and some ice lands? Wink
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    Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:15 pm  

    rossik wrote:

    so now we agree, theres no dificulty, once you adapt the skin.

    i think castle greyhawk could led you to all sorts of "worlds", like the isle of apes kind of adventure, so why not china/japan, greece and some ice lands? Wink

    We have an Accord!

    Some 'Horsing Around' with grecian centaur hunting parties to warm things up & a 'Boreal'-ly nice level to keep things cool, eh?
    From your mouth to RJK's ears...
    ...and eventually to a published form or pdf file...

    Ciao,
    Grendelwulf
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    Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:27 am  

    As an update, things are going well with my research and building of my own CG. I have been using 3.5's Expedition and 2nd editions GH Ruins almost exclusively, with some inspiration from Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and a few other sources. It's being created from Rules Cyclopedia era D&D, and I've put together the first and second levels of the dungeon. Level one has about 90 rooms, and so far, level two has 50, with more on the way - not including a short demiplane adventure accessible from level 2. Things are going well, and we have plans to start up in a couple of months.

    I did have another question. Does anyone know if Garys CG had the same set-up as the modules? Three Towers: War, Magic, and Zagyg's? Each with a dungeon setting underneath.
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    Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:56 am  

    Definately get the freebies of EX 1, EX 2 here: www.wizards.com/dnd/DND_EX.asp
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    Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:02 am  

    MichaelSandar wrote:
    I did have another question. Does anyone know if Garys CG had the same set-up as the modules? Three Towers: War, Magic, and Zagyg's? Each with a dungeon setting underneath.

    It does not, but it would be easy enough to adapt.
    You could use the CZ Upper Woks set as the above ground portion of the Tower of Zagyg, and then just add gates and bridges to the other two towers, and an extra set of stairs down for the ToZ dungeons.

    Scott
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    Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:11 am  

    Thanks Scott. I think I'll stick with one large level with multiple entrances, and some areas that can only be reached by a particular entrance.
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    Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:55 pm  

    Prior to the publication of CZ, I had mocked up something that would allow a DM to leverage the content from WGR4 as well as a true "castle" for the ruins level. It's at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog_environs-draft_01_low.jpg in case you're curious.

    I'd still like to do something like this, to leverage the details about the castle environs that we know (which don't necessarily align to the environs around the CZ:UW set, but that also doesn't really have a larger-scale close-up environs map outside of the ruins level itself, so I think the two can still be meshed pretty cleanly if desired).
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    Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:31 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Prior to the publication of CZ, I had mocked up something that would allow a DM to leverage the content from WGR4 as well as a true "castle" for the ruins level. It's at http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog_environs-draft_01_low.jpg in case you're curious.

    I'd still like to do something like this, to leverage the details about the castle environs that we know (which don't necessarily align to the environs around the CZ:UW set, but that also doesn't really have a larger-scale close-up environs map outside of the ruins level itself, so I think the two can still be meshed pretty cleanly if desired).


    Allan, that's excellent. Thanks for sharing!
    _________________
    Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
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