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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ancient Greyhawk political maps
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    Ancient Greyhawk political maps
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:14 am  
    Ancient Greyhawk political maps

    I was wondering if anyone has already tried to draw maps of the Flanaess of the past.
    Specifically maps of the Flanaess during Vecna's reign, during year 0, and intermediate times like -100 CY, 50 CY, 100 CY, 150 CY, 200 CY etc up to 500 CY and 550 CY.

    It would be really useful to graphically see how the realms have evolved during the years, I believe many of us do have a clue on what happened but I am also quite sure there will be lot of discussion once someone takes the project in his folds and start showing the first maps...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:49 am  

    What a fantastic idea! I for one would love to see a rough delineation of the oeridian tribal lands before the conquests of the Great Kingdom. Has anyone looked into this in the past?

    Ta.

    Damien.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:20 pm  

    Rasgon has made up a couple of nice quick-and-dirty maps when we've been discussing historical issues. I believe he did one on the post-Migration Aerdi and eastern Oeridian states and another on Vecna's empire. You might be able to find them by searching the forums, or maybe he'll pop in and post them. This is a subject right up his alley.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:21 pm  

    Kirt Wackford created proposed boundaries for Vecna's realm in OJ 16.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:55 pm  

    This thread has both of the maps by Rasgon that I mentioned above -

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2790&highlight=vecna+map
    GreySage

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:24 pm  

    I didn't make the Vecna one, incidentally. I think Gary Holian and Erik Mona did.

    But yes, this project is up my alley.
    GreySage

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:02 pm  

    Thanks for that link, Smillan! Happy

    Awesome maps Rasgon. Thanks for giving us those and I hope we get to see more of them in the future. Happy Cool Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:24 am  

    Very very good.
    Someone has also ever set a clear time for the reign of Rachleach in the Adri forest? From what I recall elves were not the first inhabitants of the Flanaess, but from the text in City of Greyhawk, it seems like there was this "kingdom" which should be very, very old (I'd guess over 5000 years at least).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:47 pm  

    See this is what I love about this place.!I had never heard of Rachleach, and then MToscan forces me to drag out the Encyclopedia Greyhawkia and look this up. Smile

    Sounds like he definitely predates Queen Sharafere by a long shot. Maybe one of her ancestors, or could be totally unrelated.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:33 am  

    Rachleach? Was that the ancient elf spirit possessing a druid in the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set? I always liked the idea, although I confess that the reason why was that it reminded me somewhat of the Valheru of the Riftwar Saga....

    So sue me.

    Embarassed

    Damien.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:14 am  

    That's the one. Not familiar with the valheru so I had to look it up. Sounds like an apt comparison. One cool thing about Rachleach is rather than the traditional Tolkien elven feel he has has more of a Poul Anderson elven feel, doing elven things for elven reasons, and humans or anybody else be damned. We see hints of that in the post-war Celene, but that has less to do with them being elves than the state of Yolande's head. This'll produce groans from many but that's one thing I like that they've done with eladrin, elves and the fey in 4e. They're more alien and otherworldly than in previous editions, although part of that was just tying the elves more closely to the fey. I wish they had just bitten the bullet and placed the elven gods in the Feywild instead of their own realms.
    GreySage

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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:10 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I wish they had just bitten the bullet and placed the elven gods in the Feywild instead of their own realms.


    If they lived in the Feywild, they wouldn't be gods. The only real difference between a god, demon lord, archfey, darklord, primal spirit, and primordial is where they come from (they'll generally have different physical appearances and roles in the cosmology too, but not different power levels). The archfey of the Feywild are equivalent to gods in power and majesty, so if you want 4th edition to have elven "gods" living in the Feywild, you essentially have them.

    The reason Sehanine and Corellon don't live in the Feywild is because they're supposed to be gods worshiped by all races, not archfey. Corellon is as much the god of magic to the dwarves and dragons as he is to the elves.

    The only exception to this that I'm aware of is that Lolth is considered a goddess in 4th edition even though she lives in the Abyss, which suggests that things are a little more complicated than "a demon lord is a god who lives in the Abyss and an archfey is a god who lives in the Feywild." But that's mostly only true for legacy reasons; generally speaking a god will dwell in the Astral Sea, a primordial in the Elemental Chaos, a darklord in the Shadowfell, and so on, each type of being in its appropriate place.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:31 pm  

    True, I'd forgotten about racial identity being a secondary thing with 4e gods. One of the things I still don't care for, but from a design point of view, especially the design model they're working from, I do I see the point. I do like what they've done with the Feywild and the archfey.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:57 pm  

    Damien wrote:
    Rachleach? Was that the ancient elf spirit possessing a druid in the City of Greyhawk Boxed Set? I always liked the idea, although I confess that the reason why was that it reminded me somewhat of the Valheru of the Riftwar Saga....

    So sue me.

    Embarassed

    Damien.


    The only other Living Campaign I'd ever want to do besides Greyhawk would be a Living Midkemia campaign. I love me some low-magic settings.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:41 am  

    Five years ago, I had the same question floating bout my noggin'...Being a big fan of maps, I diligently went through my source material and came up with the following ten maps, filling in any gaps with my own interpretation of nebulous bits of material...I'm sure the maps aren't entirely correct, but what map is?...Here are links to them as they are rather larger than a typical monitor's screen when pasted into a post on a board:

    The Flanaess BCY 200
    The Flanaess BCY 150
    The Flanaess BCY 100
    The Flanaess CY 1
    The Flanaess CY 130
    The Flanaess CY 254
    The Flanaess CY 360
    The Flanaess CY 461
    The Flanaess CY 579
    The Flanaess CY 591
    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:53 pm  

    Very nice maps, Kwint. Cool

    Thanks for sharing. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:28 am  

    Kwint's maps are great. The only change I'd make at first glance is that Blackmoor was once part of the Aerdi province of Ferrond; the Great Kingdom of Aerdy should be shown extending across the Rover lands all the way to Blackmoor (probably in the CY 130 map, and probably in the CY 1 map as well).
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:18 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...The only change I'd make at first glance is that Blackmoor was once part of the Aerdi province of Ferrond; the Great Kingdom of Aerdy should be shown extending across the Rover lands all the way to Blackmoor (probably in the CY 130 map, and probably in the CY 1 map as well).


    So Rip, are you thinking of a change such as thus?:

    The Flanaess CY 130 - Redux

    I guess I should go back and read the entry in the LG Gazetteer to see when Blackmoor was founded...IIRC, there were some Suel barbarians that had migrated across the icy ocean from Rhizia prior to it's settlement by Oeridians...
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:47 pm  

    Nice, Kwint, very nice. Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:18 pm  

    Those are really neat. Never before have I been able to visualize the Aerdy empire's march across the Flanaess and its subsequent retreat. Nice job!
    Forum Moderator

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    Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:48 pm  

    Cool set of maps kwint! It's neat to see an evolution of the borders.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:38 am  

    aurdraco wrote:
    Those are really neat. Never before have I been able to visualize the Aerdy empire's march across the Flanaess and its subsequent retreat. Nice job!


    Ya, I think they make for a pretty cool "slideshow" when viewed in chronological order...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:03 am  

    THIS IS IT!!!! Thank you very much, that's EXACTLY what I needed!!!
    Besides, any idea of maps pre-200BCY? The Empire of Vecna, for instance...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:56 am  

    Impressive... Most impressive. I second any attempts at earlier maps, particularly of the Occluded Empire.

    Damien.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:57 am  

    Up :D
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:42 pm  

    So, since this thread was recently given a reprieve from the depths of the afterlife, through the marvels of Thread Necromancy, I thought I would offer my two cents.
    ...
    Recently, I was thinking about maps and such, and how to reconcile different maps of Western Oerik, and how to include reference material from the Black Moon Chronicles as inspiration. I posted some of my thoughts on the topic on the Flanaess Geographical Society Facebook group ... so, I'll transcribe them here, for continuation of the discussion.

    Okay so I had something of a personal epiphany a bit ago. I'm hoping that I'm not the first to stumble into this theory, and that someone can help me work it out in my head. It relates to the 1996 Dragon Annual global map of Oerth - specifically lands outside the Flanaess.
    For those of you unfamiliar with it, I will link the map here:

    The thing of it isn't so much the map itself, but the accompanying text. In another thread, I made a comment saying something to the effect that if we could somehow authenticate that it was a map of another era, we could then justify the use of maps and source material from both the Black Moon Chronicles, and the Chainmail Sundered Empire settings - which are (for now) mutually exclusive in some areas, as they overlap.

    So, here's my thought: the text of the Baklunish and Suel Empires are the critical parts they say:
    Dragon Magaztine Annual, 1996 wrote:

      "Baklunish Empire: More properly called the Baklulnish Basin these days. "
      "Suel Empire: You know this area as the Sea of Dust. Tales of its former glory is known to you."
    So, my thinking is thus: If Heward, in-character, refers to the labels as being no longer accurate, and admits that the map is "cobbled together from diverse sources - mostly the recollections of some of the 'old guard'" and it includes nations that are no longer present, and that the names of some areas have obviously changed, is it not also possible (or likely, even) that details about other nations may've changed? Like whether or not they exist anymore after a great cataclysm?

    So, I'm thinking that if the Twin Cataclysms took place about -422CY, that'd put it during the Demon War in western Oerik (according to Chainmail canon) ca1500 years before present. The Empire of Lynn, and all of Western Oerik is presented in a way that makes them seem contemporary to the Suel and Baklunish Empires. ... in fact, the Empire of Lynn could be older than that, since the Suel calendar goes back even further than that. But, we know that the map represents Oerik's nations in their state not more recent than -422CY.

    Lastly since it's also an established fact that there were other nations in western Oerik prior to the Demon War, and that little was left afterward except ruins - so, I'm thinking that since the original Dragon Annual map has names of nations that no longer exist in the *Flanaess*, it may just as well have ones of nations whose borders have changed in Western Oerik, or also no longer exist.

    What do y'all think? Could this be a map of a previous era of Oerik?
    Let's keep this away from edition wars or opinions about whether or not someone liked Chainmail, or the DA map, but throw in your two coppers worth!
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:54 am  

    I think it was another way for the author of the Dragon Annual #1 article, Skip Williams, to assure readers that the terrible names on that map weren't necessarily canon, as well as cover their butts when they inevitably retconned it in future products. "Nippon" was so bad that it earned still another layer of doubt, but places like 'Ishtarland' are likely not the modern names for those nations either. And, for example, the Elvanian Forest was renamed Ravillia.

    But yes, it's possible to make as many changes to the map as you want and use 'the map is 1000 years out of date' as an excuse. I'm sure that was part of Skip Williams' thinking too.
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    Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:00 am  

    Well, yes ... I'm certainly aware that there is a great deal of the population of fans of GH that freak out whenever "Nippon" is mentioned. I think that the reaction is a little overblown, personally, since there are many and varied things about Greyhawk that are references to or direct word-swapping from IRL history. For me personally, I'd never even heard the word "Nippon" 'til someone on Canonfire ranted about it, decrying it and saying how awful it was.
    But, that's really neither here, nor there.
    rasgon wrote:
    And, for example, the Elvanian Forest was renamed Ravillia.
    I'm a little loathe to say it, Rasgon, but you seem to be mis-remembering. The elven Oligarchy of Ravilla is a considerable distance Northwest of the Elvanian Forest (or "Forȇt Elfique", depending on one's source). Ravilla is also heavily forested, but, it is hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. It's the area marked on the map above as "Elven Lands".

    Quote:
    But yes, it's possible to ... use 'the map is 1000 years out of date' as an excuse. I'm sure that was part of Skip Williams' thinking too.
    Well, I don't think I would exactly call it an "excuse", but, it's good to know that you think there's a little validity to the theory. I am mostly concerned that I don't know my ancient GH history enough to know if there's any conflict with what's known of Oerik 1,500 YBP.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:38 pm  

    Icarus wrote:
    Well, yes ... I'm certainly aware that there is a great deal of the population of fans of GH that freak out whenever "Nippon" is mentioned. I think that the reaction is a little overblown, personally, since there are many and varied things about Greyhawk that are references to or direct word-swapping from IRL history.


    It seems to have bothered Skip Williams enough that it earned a "Unsure of the place's real name" note from Heward, something we don't see in any of the other names. So while the potentially outdated nature of the rest of the map offers an "out" for those who want to change the names of the other nations, Nippon got an extra layer of dubiousness by having its name specifically called out by the author.

    Quote:
    Ravilla is also heavily forested, but, it is hundreds, if not thousands of miles away. It's the area marked on the map above as "Elven Lands".


    Ah yes, I was confusing the Elvanian Forest with the Elven Lands.

    Quote:
    Well, I don't think I would exactly call it an "excuse"


    I don't mean anything disparaging by the word "excuse." Naturally, you don't need any excuse to change something for your own campaign. But if you're dealing with contradictory canon, this provides an excuse for assigning this particular canon a lower priority.

    Quote:
    I am mostly concerned that I don't know my ancient GH history enough to know if there's any conflict with what's known of Oerik 1,500 YBP.


    We know precious little about ancient Oerik.
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    Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:37 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    It seems to have bothered Skip Williams enough that it earned a "Unsure of the place's real name" note from Heward, something we don't see in any of the other names. So while the potentially outdated nature of the rest of the map offers an "out" for those who want to change the names of the other nations, Nippon got an extra layer of dubiousness by having its name specifically called out by the author.
    You know, that's really a good point. I'd forgotten that Nippon has a specific note about that, in addition to the more general statement in the introduction paragraph that he's sure that locals have other names for the nations.
    I tend to like to think of it as Skip Williams using it not so much as simply a horrible name, but, more as a way to let us know what *we're* (as players) are s'posed to understand about the theme of the region, and that he wanted us to know that it had an oriental theme without explicitly saying it, or wasting valuable word count on explaining that it is so. It would especially be difficult if he had written, long-form, that the place should be "medieval Japan" or "Rennaisance China". This way, I think, it can be an ancient place (comparable to an IRL historical place) without specifying details.

    Quote:
    But if you're dealing with contradictory canon, this provides an excuse for assigning this particular canon a lower priority.
    You know, it's kind of funny ... I couldn't help but chuckle a little at that last part. Since I'm a *huge* of Western Oerik, I am -in a way- trying to assign it a higher priority. I think that this map has been too long ignored, and I would like to see it have a more firmly established, and accepted, place in canon.
    Quote:
    We know precious little about ancient Oerik.
    And that's mostly why I would *love* it if the theory that it's firmly a map of ancient Oerik.

    One problem that it does bring about, though, is Lhynn. I don't recall if it's referred to in later GH works as the "Empire" of Lhynn, or not. But, I know Robilar went there, and I know the Dragonmasters and the Mirrormasters are mentioned.
    But, if he went within his lifetime, and we assume that he wasn't time-traveling, that would mean that he visited a smaller nation that no longer controlled a majority of the entire region. Which, I guess, really, there's no problem with that.
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