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    Greyhawk references no one talks about
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:22 pm  
    Greyhawk references no one talks about

    The following three references weren’t included on Roger Moore’s old GH indexes and I’ve never heard anyone mention them in all the years since I started poking around various forums, websites, and listserves in ’96. I thought I’d share. Does anyone want to add more?

    “Playing the Political Game” Dragon Magazone 90, p31
    Cool details about Luxor and Karmagia, two small fiefdoms in the Wild Coast.

    The Complete Thief’s Handbook, p 82-87
    Sargent details two master thieves active in Gryrax and Monmurg.

    The Spellfire Reference Guide
    This contains pictures of every card in the basic set, including all of the Greyhawk cards. The focus is on playing strategies, but the book adds descriptive italicized text and easter eggs not found on the cards. I only have 20 or of the old TSR trading cards that proceeded Spellfire to compare, but the text in this book seems to be entirely different. Furthermore, the text is a little more substantial than the short sentence or two I’ve seen on the trading cards. Here’s the full text from…

    Hordes of Castle Greyhawk: “Castle Greyhawk is one of Oerth’s most notable ruins. Only once in recorded history did the monstrous inhabitants pour forth from its depths. When Iuz and Venca struggled for immortal supremacy, all the monsters in all the lands went mad. The hordes of creatures in the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk ravaged the land with senseless slaughter.”

    Other interesting finds include:
    Skull Keep – a fortress guarding a mountain pass “on the borders of the lands of Iuz.”
    A druid who hosted an avatar of Ehlonna during the Greyhawk Wars.
    An undead king of ancient Aerdi (and good alignment!)
    Forum Moderator

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    Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:24 pm  

    Wow, this is a very interesting topic! I can't think of any obscure topics off the top of my head, though there has to be hundreds of them really, especially when you consider the Magazines and secondary sources that you cite. But since you broached it vestcoat lets discuss it now!

    "Playing the Political Game" sounds familiar to me but I'm sure I haven't read it. I am rather shocked that it had two new fiefdoms for the Wild Coast in it. Issue 90 means it was 1st edition, so, it must've been one of many of those articles that got overlooked. If Gygax didn't write it or if it wasn't a full-blown GH article like Joe Bloch's Pomarj article, then these magazine sources never seemed to carry on to further editions. I think someone who is a completist like Anna with her GH maps should take a closer look at this article.

    The Complete Thief's Handbook one is a good find. Sargent wrote it so you know he had the best intentions when he used Greyhawk characters in it. By picking thieves of Monmurg and Gryrax I think he was playing it safe by not treading on popular areas, while spreading some development to some new areas. But as those 2e era books were supposed to be generic, I am not surprised that they got overlooked in discussions since there was so much actual GH source material put out around that time.

    Now the Trading Cards is something I had a few of, but now are lost. The Hordes of Castle Greyhawk one is strange indeed. I always assumed that those cards were merely random stock D&D images that some writer threw a GH label on and made up some story to go along with. I don't think anyone back then considered those canonical so why discuss them? Now in hindsight it seems a perfect time to discuss and see how they fit into canon.

    The Hordes of creatures below CG is likely the hordes from Greyhawk Ruins that are below the War Tower and maybe Power Tower. Vecna and Iuz means it was pre-GH Wars so a scenario exists where the outcome of GH Ruins is all the monsters piling out and into the hills, leaving the dungeons quite empty... Sounds fun to me!
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:36 am  
    Re: Greyhawk references no one talks about

    vestcoat wrote:
    “Playing the Political Game” Dragon Magazone 90, p31
    Cool details about Luxor and Karmagia, two small fiefdoms in the Wild Coast.


    I never heard of that one before..

    Quote:
    The Complete Thief’s Handbook, p 82-87
    Sargent details two master thieves active in Gryrax and Monmurg.


    I know these two (and the implications they make for extant thieves guilds) but wasn't aware that Sargent wrote the Complete Thief. I even used the Guild creation tables in there to roll up details about a thieves guild and an adventurer's guild of Gryrax.



    To add a few new ones, there was a series of articles about Greyhawk deities in Polyhedron:

    Polyhedron #128, p.28
    "Powers that Be: Boccob" (Eric L. Boyd)

    Polyhedron #129, p.38
    "Powers that Be: St.Cuthbert" (Eric L. Boyd)

    Polyhedron #130, p.44
    "Powers that Be: Procan" (Eric L. Boyd)

    Polyhedron #132, p.40
    "Powers that Be: Kurell" (Eric L. Boyd)

    Polyhedron #139, p.20
    "Powers that Be: Xan Yae" (Lance Hawvermale)

    Polyhedron #140, p.28
    "Powers that Be: Cyndor" (Lance Hawvermale)

    (Also found on this unfinished Greyhawk in periodicals index)

    Some of the details in those were changed/superseded in the later Dragon articles on the same deities (Kurell comes to mind).

    The Kurell article notes that:
    Quote:
    Kurell's most prominent temple is the Vault of the Hidden Horde, in the catacombs beneath the city of Kalstrand, the newly proclaimed capitol of the United Kingdom of Ahlissa where the populace worships the Oeridian pantheon almost exclusively and where organized thievery is rampant. Arch-Avenger Vensch Estende secretly presides over all three rival thieves´ guilds active in Kalstrand and dreams of the day when Overking Xavener dances to his whim as well.


    Last edited by Thanael on Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:21 am; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:02 am  

    Another topic that I seldom see referenced is the fanon material/timeline on the dwarves of Greyhawk: Runes of the dwurs

    Most of it can be found on this swedish website (Click the links under Dwarfs (Runes and Migrations[map]), though the original authors/compilers are french GH fans:
    http://hem.passagen.se/warlich/Greyhawk/World/the_world__greyhawk.html
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:19 am  

    I made wiki articles on Septien Selfareine and Marmel Raveiz a while ago.

    Other obscure characters I've put up there include:

    Morghadam, Acererak's architect.
    Ztxar, an ancient Suel wizard.
    Vilhara, mother of Tsojcanth.
    Demara the Enchantress.
    Saint Handraleo
    Oolan the Suel lich
    Yori Kerlgortz
    Korgan Badaxe
    Llemual, the half-drow ruler of an underdark kingdom.

    Luxor and Karmagia (which I didn't know about either) are kind of hidden in a generic article about introducing politics to campaigns, and are so very specific to Mike Beeman's campaign that I'm not surprised no one's mentioned them since. They are cool, though. I notice that Mike Beeman apparently mistakes "Lady Rhalta" for Yolande's name, rather than her title.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:59 am  

    mortellan wrote:

    Now the Trading Cards is something I had a few of, but now are lost. The Hordes of Castle Greyhawk one is strange indeed. I always assumed that those cards were merely random stock D&D images that some writer threw a GH label on and made up some story to go along with.


    I think you're right, but I'm not talking about the Trading Cards made from '91-93. The Spellfire Reference Guide in question is a 384-page book for use with the CCC that was TSR's answer to Magic: The Gathering. The Spellfire Guide's fiction write-ups included below the card stats and playing tips seem to be entirely different than the text on earlier Trading Cards that often shared the same artwork as Spellfire cards (although, again, I don't have enough Trading Cards to make a thorough comparison).

    Quote:
    The Hordes of creatures below CG is likely the hordes from Greyhawk Ruins that are below the War Tower and maybe Power Tower. Vecna and Iuz means it was pre-GH Wars so a scenario exists where the outcome of GH Ruins is all the monsters piling out and into the hills, leaving the dungeons quite empty... Sounds fun to me!


    Me too. While this reference is one of the weirder ones in the Spellfire Guide and not the easiest to fit into GH canon, I've always liked the idea.

    Considering Iuz' history with the Castle, his lingering connection to the Godtrap, and eventual plots that unfold in 597CY, a story could be crafted wherein his sudden banishment from Oerth before the Wars causes an artifact in the Castle (somehow tied to his presence) to malfunction and drive the dungeon inhabitants into a frenzy. This could explain what happened to the humanoid power struggle beneath the Tower of War and the disappearance of the dwarf and elf gatekeepers mentioned in TAB. It would also offer a rare excuse for a brief siege on GH and a chance to use that chapter on The Grand Citadel and details for GH's defense in the CoG box. Finally, it's along the same lines as IronGolem's idea in the What would you change thread about "the exile of Iuz to the demi-plane of dread would have actually caused chaos and revolt in most of the conquered lands of Iuz's bloated empire."
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:45 pm  

    There's lots of stuff out there, like the trading card spy in the Valley of the Mage, lots of Spellfire cards, Elena the Fair (Iggwilv's sister), the Kingdom of Thalland, and a host of other subjects.

    The wiki is, IMO, one of the best ways to catalog such obscure info & make it readily available to GH fans & writers, but Rip & I can't do it alone (hint, hint). Well, not quickly, anyway. :)
    GreySage

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    Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:51 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    but Rip & I can't do it alone (hint, hint). Well, not quickly, anyway. :)


    I got that hint! Happy

    Unfortunately, I don't have any of the source material being cited here. Sad
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:57 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk references no one talks about

    Thanael wrote:

    To add a few new ones, there was a series of articles about Gereyhawk deities in Polyhedron:


    I finally tracked down a few of these Polyhedrons - good stuff! Nice to have some official write ups and sphere lists for a few more of those lesser gods.

    Quote:
    Some of the details in those were changed/superseded in the later Dragon articles on the same deities (Kurell comes to mind).


    I think "trampled" is more accurate than changed or superseded. Boy am I not a fan of those Andy Miller articles! Have they ever been discussed on here? Was there any community reaction or debate back when they were published? I could give a few reasons why they should be tossed in the shredder with WG9-11. Happy
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    Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:06 pm  

    As far back as I can remember no they haven't been discussed. I know there's been some differences with the articles (though I don't have them committed to memory) but overall I liked Miller's choices. In my own experience, those Polyhedrons were obscure compared to Dragon Magazine articles. I certainly never seen nor heard of those articles before (now I want them). The fact Miller chose only one similar deity to write on is enough to keep his stuff from the shredder in my opinion.

    Oh yes, I remember one now, Raxivort was covered in an Oerid god series when he's a Xvart. Odd but harmless.
    GreySage

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    Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:27 pm  

    There was quite a lot of controversy regarding Andy Miller's articles on the AOL boards back in the day. I remember there was some outrage over giving Delleb a gun, and over calling his dog a "Labrador" considering Oerth doesn't have any place called Labrador in it.

    Andy Miller used the From the Ashes deity card as his reference, which listed Raxivort as an Oeridian god and left out Wenta from the list, which explains why he wrote the article as if Raxivort was Oeridian and Wenta didn't exist.

    Over all, I like his deity articles, though. They were quirky but interesting. Rebecca Guay's beautiful art helped a lot.
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    Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:58 am  

    I second that, Rasgon! I met Rebecca Guay at gencon a couple years ago. I didn't see any prints of her GH deity illustrations for sale or else I'd have em by now. Razz

    As to the controversy, wow, those are some bizarre screw ups or nitpicks. Good times!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:17 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I remember there was some outrage over giving Delleb a gun, and over calling his dog a "Labrador" considering Oerth doesn't have any place called Labrador in it.


    But making stuff up is half the fun! Thus I have floatweed instead of sargasum (no Sargasso Sea), and wanderers instead of sand dollars (no dollars).
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    Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:00 am  

    But do you have Turquoise?
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    Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:28 pm  

    Where do the TSR Choose Your Own Adventure "Heart Quest" books fit into DnD? They could be Greyhawk, haha.
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    Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:18 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Where do the TSR Choose Your Own Adventure "Heart Quest" books fit into DnD? They could be Greyhawk, haha.


    Not the HeartQuest books, but some of the Endless Quest books were Greyhawk. I noticed Siege of the Tower (listed as Siege of the Citadel) and Bigby's Curse are listed in the Zavoda index, but didn't see anything for The Test. I also noticed in the description that Circus of Fear, one of the early ones, references the City of Greyhawk. Do either of these have anything useful or interesting, that anyone knows of? Also can anybody list the article citations for the material in Polyhedron #'s 91 and 101. From the index 91 looks like it has some good CoGH material, but 101 looks pretty bare.
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    Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:38 pm  

    IIRC, Polyhedron #101 was the first appearance of the Suel Lich. I don't think there was much else as far as GH specific content.
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    Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:43 am  

    Polyhedron 101

    Special Features
    Turkey Feathers - an adventure
    Features
    The Book of Exalted Deeds, by Jean Rabe
    Adversaries, by Skip Williams
    Back in Black, by Lew Wright and Bruce Rabe
    War Machines, by slade
    Suel Lich, by Kevin Melka
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    Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:36 pm  

    I really liked the reference that Thanael brought up. I like the idea of the dwarven kingdoms and the effects of the cataclisms on the kingdoms.
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    Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:16 am  
    Catacombs of the Necromancers and Adventurer's Guild

    In terms of less-well-known GH sources, here are details on two: the Catacombs of the Necromancers "TSR Gold" handout for Return to the Tomb of Horrors, and the Adventurer's Guild RPGA modules supporting the 25th anniversary modules.

    Catacombs of the Necromancers doesn't offer much GH lore, but it's worth remembering being out there. The Catacombs of the Necromancers map



    is a double-sided TSR promo sheet that was a freebie to be given away by retailers to help promote sales for RttToH, and you could easily have it tie into a previous group of explorers (or be some part of an elaborate trap/lure created by Acererak, of course). If you're interested, you can buy one from Noble Knight for $3.50 @ TSR Gold Promo - Return to the Tomb of Horrors - Catacombs of the Necromancers Map

    Similarly, the RPGA also produced a series of adventures that supported the 25th anniversary modules from the late 2e era, and the were dubbed Adventurer's Guild modules. The Greyhawk related titles (from across all of the AG product lines they supported) are:


    • "Final Exam" for College of Wizardry
    • "Return of the Pick-Axe" for Return of the Eight
    • "Ill Omens" for The Adventure Begins
    • "A Second Chance" for Vecna Reborn
    • "Trouble With Derro" for The Adventure Begins
    • "Mission Brief 6106 SD XXXIV" for Scarlet Brotherhood
    • "Displaced" for Return to the Keep on the Borderlands
    • "A Simple Errand" for The Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
    • "Emissaries" for Against the Giants
    • "Dragotha's Lair" for Return to White Plume Mountain (also available on the WotC site @ http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Dragothas_Lair.pdf
    • "Crossbows & Crossbones" for Slavers

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    Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:20 pm  

    Good stuff grodog! Thanks! Smile

    "Return of the Pickaxe" also appears in TSR Jam 1999.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:18 am  

    Quote:
    From the index 91 looks like it has some good CoGH material, but 101 looks pretty bare.


    Which index do you refer to?

    Here's a link to an index of polyhedron articles that I pillaged from the web long time ago.

    For issue #91 no specific article seems to have GH content, except perhaps the module named "Shhh!".

    Poly#91 isn't listed on this unfinished GH in periodicals index that i once made. (I think the Poly entries are from Roger Moore's index, though I'm nost sure anymore)

    #101 clearly has the Suel Lich article for GH content, which is also avaiable here.
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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:27 am  

    I seem to remember grodog finding some obscure GH info in the old geomorphs:

    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_geomorphs.html
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    Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:00 am  
    Obscure NPCs of WoG; eldritch knight and arcanamach

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Other obscure characters ...


    There's quite a lot of these to be certain ...
    "Perhaps the most infamous Suel arcanamach of all is Tyrum (NE Male human cleric 3/rogue 6/Suel arcanamach10), a member of the Scarlet Brotherhood. A devoted follower of The Blazing Killer (Pyremius, NE lesser Suel god of Fire, Poison, and Murder) and once the Foster Uncle of Faith, he is credited with (among many other things) the assassination of Graf Reydrich of Ahlissa (NE Male human wizard 15/archmage 5) in 586 CY."

    Cymria of Celadon CG Female elf fighter 6/wizard 5/eldritch knight 3
    Sir Elliast Cranden LG Male human knight 5/paladin 2/knight protector 1

    There's a few gems like this in the prestige class archives and the Living Greyhawk Archives found from Wizards of the Coast. Those articles were largely written by Creighton Broadhurst four or five years ago, so it's not surprising that there's a WoG influence. They are fun little NPCs written to fit classes and stuff. They're published by the IP owner, and so I would assume that they're canon ... I was shocked to not find them in the Wiki. ... and I thought for certain that Reydrich would be in the LGG. But none of them are ... so, Good Times (tm).
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    Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:26 am  

    Those 3e conversions are great, Creighton did some good work there.

    Iirc Tyrum also appears (as a 2E specialty priest) in Scarlet Brotherhood, Reydrich is probably in Ivid the Undying, Cymria is a henchwoman of Tenser's in Vecna Lives. But Creighton also did a few example PCS that i didn't recognize from anywhere else.
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    Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:21 am  
    Re: Greyhawk references no one talks about

    vestcoat wrote:
    The following three references weren’t included on Roger Moore’s old GH indexes and I’ve never heard anyone mention them in all the years since I started poking around various forums, websites, and listserves in ’96. I thought I’d share. Does anyone want to add more?


    From the Arms & Equipment Guide (3E) -

    The Scourge of the Pomarj - +2/+2 dire flail, bane monstrous humanoids and goblinoids. Ref. p. 116.

    Standard of Ulek - +2 mithral dwarven waraxe bearing symbol of the Principality of Ulek. Ref. p. 119

    Pearl of Secrets - intelligent pearl of power created by Vecna, urging or forcing its possessor to seek after the Eye and Hand of Vecna. Ref. p. 142.

    I'm using all three in my County of Ulek campaign.
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    Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:11 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk references no one talks about

    GVDammerung wrote:

    From the Arms & Equipment Guide (3E) -
    The Scourge of the Pomarj ... Standard of Ulek ... Pearl of Secrets
    I'm using all three in my County of Ulek campaign.


    These are three greats! I hadn't even thought of them! I've used the Sourge, and the Standard of Ulek! The Standard is really cool, it looks essentially like the axe on the national emblem! Really great ones! ... there might be another gem or two in there, it's a really great book, with what must amount to hundreds of magic items.
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