Who wants to do a map of Nevond Nevnend? I'd love to, but I'm incompetent with making computer image maps.
The city started as two cities, Nevond and Nevnend, built on several hills several miles south of the Zumker River on a crossroad on a small river. Anyone any good at that sort of thing? _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
So, let me re-phrase it then, if I draw it out on paper, can someone here put it in a digital format that is pleasing to the eye? _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
Hmm... I might know a snow cat that could help you. We feline types have to stick together after all. _________________ Shadows and Dust; Just Another Soul.
Cities are sort of a pain to do, and have them come out right. If you would like though I could take a crack at it, a loose idea of how you want districts to look like would be useful (if you want districts for that matter)
How detailed did you want the map to be? Did you want things like named roads or buildings?
I can do about this quality give or take as far as maps go:
At least for big cities. (Yes I know that isn't how Bucharest really looks like, but I wanted something a bit more fantastical for the game I was going to run.)
Anyway's no promises on how long it would take or what not, but I would be willing to take a crack at it.
As a aside that sounds like how Budapest was born. It started out as two cities split by the river and became one.
Cities are sort of a pain to do, and have them come out right. If you would like though I could take a crack at it, a loose idea of how you want districts to look like would be useful (if you want districts for that matter)
How detailed did you want the map to be? Did you want things like named roads or buildings?
I can do about this quality give or take as far as maps go:
At least for big cities. (Yes I know that isn't how Bucharest really looks like, but I wanted something a bit more fantastical for the game I was going to run.)
Anyway's no promises on how long it would take or what not, but I would be willing to take a crack at it.
As a aside that sounds like how Budapest was born. It started out as two cities split by the river and became one.
Yup, born like Budapest, probably where they got the idea. _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
The great capitol, the largest city in the Duchy, was originally two towns: Nevond, the holy city of the priests, and Nevnend, the secular (trade) center. With the confederation of the tribes, however, the city was ceremonially unified, and all citizens now travel freely between either part of town. The city sprawls over a number of small, rolling hillocks, some twenty miles from the Zumker and Zumkend rivers, Hodnet providing docks and a wharf on the latter. Most of the comforts of civilization can be found here, as well as ample accommodations for traders, and though many locals distrust foreigners, visitors are rarely harassed.
Two great walls ring the city, and portions of the old city within are walled off as well, though the city has not come under assault in years. Though large, Nevond Nevnend is a crowded, busy, noisy, dirty place-the epitome of a bustling medieval city with its rough edges showing. The main road are of paved cobblestone, and in the area around the Duke's Stronghold they are brick; the other streets are mostly packed earth, quite narrow, twisting, unlit and often unsafe. Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers. These sewers are not truly public works projects, but rather the buried ruins of previous settlements, as is the case for most of the communities of Tenh.
Buildings are one- or two-story constructions made of crude brick; a few are made of fired brick or wood. Many newer buildings are constructed of stone along the first floor and wood and plaster for the second and third floors (if present); few buildings stand three or more stories tall. Major structures are often made of stone, with newer temples and palaces built tall in a neo-traditional Flan style cleverly mimicking that of the older dwellings, some of which were built centuries ago, with many predating the Aerdi occupation. _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
Remember the city suffered during the wars; a bloody siege and once the fists broke through rampaged through the city. The priests of Iuz also took up residence until the rhelt and the demi-god parted ways - violently.
Both the fists and Iuzian forces don't seem the type to waste much effort beyond the civic defenses, that is, restoring the former flan capital. IIRC; the fists still occupy Nevond Nevnend to retain access to the surrounding platnum mines.
Thanks, Crag. The details are known, but we appreciate the reminder.
TT wants to run myself and some others in a Greyhawk game in Tenh. He's trying to find someone that might be good at making city maps and having them do one of Nevond Nevnend.
Bump. I'm also looking for maps and/or writeups on Nevond Nevnend. Pre-Wars ideally, but interested in anything.
tigger1tom wrote:
Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers.
Buildings are one- or two-story constructions made of crude brick; a few are made of fired brick or wood. Many newer buildings are constructed of stone along the first floor and wood and plaster for the second and third floors (if present); few buildings stand three or more stories tall.
Please cite your sources! Portions of this are lifted directly from the description of Specularum in B6 Veiled Society. This makes me wary of using anything else you've written. I'm also using elements of Specularum for Nevond Nevnend, but it's important to know when these things are inserted into fan faction before somebody else builds on it. I'm happy to integrate other campaign settings, but I don't want to do it unknowingly. Did you plagiarize or use any other sources of inspiration for your writeup?
Bump. I'm also looking for maps and/or writeups on Nevond Nevnend. Pre-Wars ideally, but interested in anything.
tigger1tom wrote:
Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers.
Buildings are one- or two-story constructions made of crude brick; a few are made of fired brick or wood. Many newer buildings are constructed of stone along the first floor and wood and plaster for the second and third floors (if present); few buildings stand three or more stories tall.
Please cite your sources! Portions of this are lifted directly from the description of Specularum in B6 Veiled Society. This makes me wary of using anything else you've written. I'm also using elements of Specularum for Nevond Nevnend, but it's important to know when these things are inserted into fan faction before somebody else builds on it. I'm happy to integrate other campaign settings, but I don't want to do it unknowingly. Did you plagiarize or use any other sources of inspiration for your writeup?
I sent you a PM of my main source, the complete version. The following is an excerpt from Rasgon:
Rasgon wrote:
Nevond Nevnend: The capitol city, Nevond Nevnend is made of golden baked brick, its round keep and mixed Flan and Oerid-style temples seeming to burn in the sunlight.
Many of the buildings predate Aerdy. Foreigners are distrusted in Nevond Nevnend, but not harassed. The long, winding, closely packed streets radiate from Ehyeh's keep like sunbeams, and the city contains an unusual amount of stone buildings. The Allituran bardic college is located here. The college is an eccentric hodgepodge of traditional Tenha designs, Ur-Flannae revival, and student innovation.
The Duke's hall is hung with the hides of griffons and giant eagles, some slain many generations ago but still well preserved. Living mountain lions, hippogriffs, and griffons are kept as pets and hunting beasts by the Duke and his court. The ceremonial guards of the Duke's keep wear armaments of bronze, a traditional metal retained for its symbolic significance despite the use of iron and steel elsewhere in the Tenhese militia.
Unusually deep gutters keep most of the city's waste out of sight. This feature is also echoed in Redspan on a somewhat smaller scale, though the bridges that enable carts and pedestrians to pass are much more elaborate in the latter town.
Nevond Nevnend was originally two towns: Nevond, the holy city of the priests, and Nevnend, the secular center. With the confederation of the tribes, however, the city was ceremonially unified, and all citizens can travel freely between either part of town.
With the invasion, Nevond Nevnend is sacked and pillaged, although the Duke's household escaped with some of Tenh's most sacred artifacts: the Helm of Law and the Seat of Gold, which he uses to continue to inspire his people as best he can from exile.
The Fists avoided Nevond Nevnend after sacking it. The captains of Stonehold were unable to keep up their army's morale after the havoc created by sword spirits and wights, the city's vengeful dead.
Rasgon, in my opinion, is THE authority I don't ignore, he KNOWS Greyhawk like no one else. I'll continue to look for the exact source above, when I find it, if I find it (might have been taken from a web page, grey moment ) I'll post it.
TT _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
This is the source of what I wrote, I believe I got it from here on CF, but not sure, I do have the whole article if it isn't here and you wish to see it.
Quote:
Communities of the Duchy
(Posted with permission of the author J. C. Luxton)
TT _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
Ha, I wondered if I had written that description of Nevond Nevend. I wrote it over ten years ago (in 2001, or thereabouts) and didn't have access to all the relevant sources then, so don't give it too much weight. In particular, I didn't have either Iuz the Evil or Greyhawk Wars.
And in general, I don't have any Greyhawk superpowers and can forget things, make mistakes, or deliberately change things.
Ha, I wondered if I had written that description of Nevond Nevend. I wrote it over ten years ago (in 2001, or thereabouts) and didn't have access to all the relevant sources then, so don't give it too much weight. In particular, I didn't have either Iuz the Evil or Greyhawk Wars.
And in general, I don't have any Greyhawk superpowers and can forget things, make mistakes, or deliberately change things.
You forget something? I don't believe that for a moment! There may have been something you didn't know, or things you took "artistic liberties" with, but FORGOT??!! NEVER!! _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
This is the source of what I wrote, I believe I got it from here on CF, but not sure, I do have the whole article if it isn't here and you wish to see it.
Quote:
Communities of the Duchy
(Posted with permission of the author J. C. Luxton)
TT
Interesting. So you referenced Rasgon and JC Luxton and Luxton was the one who plagiarized the B6 material? His article is long gone, but it seems like he didn't even read what he was pasting, saying that Nevond Nevend is landlocked in one paragraph and that it draws river water when the tide goes out in the next.
Anyway, all the more reason to cite your sources. Plagiarizing fanon isn't any better than plagiarizing TSR mods. No one should be pasting verbatim text without credit. I don't want my players walking into a Flanaess city and saying, "hey, that sounds like Hillsfar!"
This is the source of what I wrote, I believe I got it from here on CF, but not sure, I do have the whole article if it isn't here and you wish to see it.
Quote:
Communities of the Duchy
(Posted with permission of the author J. C. Luxton)
TT
Interesting. So you referenced Rasgon and JC Luxton and Luxton was the one who plagiarized the B6 material? His article is long gone, but it seems like he didn't even read what he was pasting, saying that Nevond Nevend is landlocked in one paragraph and that it draws river water when the tide goes out in the next.
Anyway, all the more reason to cite your sources. Plagiarizing fanon isn't any better than plagiarizing TSR mods. No one should be pasting verbatim text without credit. I don't want my players walking into a Flanaess city and saying, "hey, that sounds like Hillsfar!"
WTF, just a general description, never said it was canon, did I? It does suffice for a general description. The city is 10 miles from the Zumker, but the only descriptions I ever saw said it started as two cities built on several hills on a small unnamed river on a crossroad before it unified into one city. I was asking if someone could do a map based on the general description, not citing canon, so no reason to be a jerk about 'plagiarizing' and putting folks down. What did I ever do to you?
B6 wrote:
The streets are very narrow, twisting, and
dark. There is no sewage system, except for
trenches in the centers of streets. Pigs, chickens,
geese, and goats are not uncommon in
the poorer sections of the city.
Most buildings stand one or two stories.
They are made of dried clay brick or mud and
wattle, constructed on a wooden frame. A
few buildings are made of stone or fired
brick. Most businesses are on the ground
floor, the owner living upstairs.
Water is drawn from public wells, or from
the river when the tide is flowing out.
Yes it sounds like the author did borrow a bit, though it was changed to fit the Tenh and it isn't word for word.
J.C. Luxton wrote:
Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers. These sewers are not truly public works projects, but rather the buried ruins of previous settlements, as is the case for most of the communities of Tenh.
Buildings are one- or two-story constructions made of crude brick; a few are made of fired brick or wood. Many newer buildings are constructed of stone along the first floor and wood and plaster for the second and third floors (if present); few buildings stand three or more stories tall. Major structures are often made of stone, with newer temples and palaces built tall in a neo-traditional Flan style cleverly mimicking that of the older dwellings, some of which were built centuries ago, with many predating the Aerdi occupation.
TT _________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
So you referenced . . . JC Luxton . . . His article is long gone, but it seems like he didn't even read what he was pasting . . .
Sounds to me as though J.C. Luxton (whoever he is) isn't guilty of doing anything that WotC hasn't done . . . and with their own material. WotC can't seem to keep there facts straight either.
Cudos to Mr. Luxton for his worthy effort on behalf of the fans.
vestcoat wrote:
Plagiarizing fanon isn't any better than plagiarizing TSR mods. No one should be pasting verbatim text without credit.
I don't see Tiggertom as "plagiarizing" anything, he was merely using a description he liked in an effort to receive assistance from anyone in creating a city map of Nevond Nevnend for use in his personal campaign. And Tiggertom did not need to "cite" anyone in borrowing a landscape description he liked for mapping out his "ideal" city. Tiggertom wasn't quoting Mr. Luxton -- or anyone else -- in a "book" that he's writing, nor even an Article. In fact, in this particular reference, he was providing a description he liked specifically to Iressi, who originally offered to help with the project.
vestcoat wrote:
I don't want my players walking into a Flanaess city and saying, "hey, that sounds like Hillsfar!"
I'll repeat this: Tiggertom is asking for assistance in creating a map for his campaign, so just what in the Nine Hells has that got to do with your players? Tiggertom is seeking a direct "computer to computer" collaboration. The map in question will never be posted anywhere, including Canonfire! So I must ask: When will your players EVER see Tiggertom's map of Nevond Nevnend? Did you plan on "stealing" the map somehow?
If you are not interested in assisting Tiggertom in this endeavor, why did YOU resurrect this 2 year old thread? If you do not have something constructive to say, or skills that you are willing to devote to Tiggertom's project, why are you "here," on this thread? You should not have joined this discussion merely to criticize and find fault.
Tiggertom did not ask for, nor did he invite, "public opinion" of his project's "cononicity," he only seeks assistance with its production. We do not need community members joining in "conversations," when their only interest seems to be in finding fault with others' opinions, ideas, projects, or points of view. We do not need, nor want, "Flame Wars" on Canonfire!
I bumped the thread because I was looking for the exact same thing Tiggertom was - information and possibly a map for Nevond Nevnend. Rather than start an identical thread, I followed forum etiquette and did a search first.
I didn't come here looking for a fight. I was initially very excited to find Tigger's little writeup until I realized some of it is lifted word-for-word directly from B6. Whether you "see" it as plagiarism or public opinion is irrelevant. The fact is, the following sentences come directly from B6, p2:
tigger1tom wrote:
is a crowded, busy, noisy, dirty place-the epitome of a bustling medieval city with its rough edges showing....
Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers.
I don't care if he's writing a book or merely a forum post. I don't care if he's stealing from David Cook directly or via JC Luxton. Quoting someone verbatim and taking credit for it is unethical. Period. Reasonable people don't do that.
Obviously, we're all building on derivative work, we're not writing college papers, and I'm not looking for full bibliographies, but pasting full chunks of someone's text into your own post is pretty messed up.
I bumped the thread because I was looking for the exact same thing Tiggertom was - information and possibly a map for Nevond Nevnend. Rather than start an identical thread, I followed forum etiquette and did a search first.
I didn't come here looking for a fight. I was initially very excited to find Tigger's little writeup until I realized some of it is lifted word-for-word directly from B6. Whether you "see" it as plagiarism or public opinion is irrelevant. The fact is, the following sentences come directly from B6, p2:
tigger1tom wrote:
is a crowded, busy, noisy, dirty place-the epitome of a bustling medieval city with its rough edges showing....
Pigs, chickens, geese and goats are not uncommon in the poorer sections of the city. Water is drawn from public wells, or from the river when the tide is flowing out. Sanitation consists of nice deep gutters cut into the center of the streets that drain into sewers.
I don't care if he's writing a book or merely a forum post. I don't care if he's stealing from David Cook directly or via JC Luxton. Quoting someone verbatim and taking credit for it is unethical. Period. Reasonable people don't do that.
Obviously, we're all building on derivative work, we're not writing college papers, and I'm not looking for full bibliographies, but pasting full chunks of someone's text into your own post is pretty messed up.
_________________ Servant of Azmekidom the Most Prudent Despot, The Unapproachable One
I'm not looking for full bibliographies, but pasting full chunks of someone's text into your own post is pretty messed up.
I thank you for your opinion, which you are very much entitled to.
However, your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's and you and your minor children are the only ones who have to "live" by your opinion.
So, if all you want to do -- from this point onward -- is criticize, then please join a different conversation. This thread is still "alive" in that Tiggertom still wants the help.
And that's between him and anyone who might wish to offer it. Your desire to post negative opinions of such a collaboration is not conductive to community cohesion in anyway.
I don't want to derail the thread, I'm still interested in the OP too, but for the creative health and honesty of our community, it's very important to nip plagiarism in the bud as soon as it occurs. Since the OP plagiarized in this thread, this is an appropriate place to discuss dishonesty.
Anyway, I'm having a lot of trouble following your argument. I'm not talking about yet-to-be-made maps or how public or private Tiggertom's personal collaborations are. My concern is Tiggertom's little writeup on Nevond Nevnend, in this thread, in public, that stole a bunch of verbatim text without credit.
Like I said, plagiarism is unethical or "messed up". Period. This has nothing to do with my personal opinion. Zero. The dishonesty of plagiarism is established fact. Students guilty of it are expelled; professionals can ruin their career. Nobody extols the virtues of plagiarism. I'm not calling anyone names or making anything up, so stopping taking it personally. The proof is right in front of you. Criticism is only bad if it's excessive or untrue.
I know this is a small instance and you guys probably think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but understand why this is important:
1) it's calls the author's integrity into question. Don't get me wrong, Tiggertom seems like a nice guy and I'm sure he wasn't being malicious when he pasted a few sentences into a short post on an internet forum... BUT it makes one wonder how much of his general posting is OC and how much is stolen, doesn't it?
2) It's disrespectful to the creator. People get upset when you paste slabs of their work without credit.
3) Readers care about sources even if the author doesn't. The text TT stole is the kind of descriptive flavor I read to my players. Fortunately, it's an obscure source on Specularum that no one will recognize, but this stuff is a slippery slope. Next time it could be Waterdeep or Palanthas. Most of us are fine borrowing ideas from other settings, but I doubt anyone wants to do it unknowingly.
Plagiarizing fanon isn't any better than plagiarizing TSR mods. No one should be pasting verbatim text without credit.
I don't see Tiggertom as "plagiarizing" anything, he was merely using a description he liked in an effort to receive assistance from anyone in creating a city map of Nevond Nevnend for use in his personal campaign. And Tiggertom did not need to "cite" anyone in borrowing a landscape description he liked for mapping out his "ideal" city. Tiggertom wasn't quoting Mr. Luxton -- or anyone else -- in a "book" that he's writing, nor even an Article. In fact, in this particular reference, he was providing a description he liked specifically to Iressi, who originally offered to help with the project...
-OK. Plagiarizing is trying to pass off someone else's work as your own. Starting with an "academic" or ethical perspective (where plagiarism is very, very, very, very, very bad), Considering this:
tigger1tom wrote:
...Yup, born like Budapest, probably where they got the idea.
(italics mine)
...and his presentation of the offending quote, and the rest of Tiggertom's posts with Iressi, I don't think he was trying to pass off the offending quote as his own. I assumed he was quoting some source. So plagiarism is the wrong word (and a bad word). Now, in the future, it might be helpful if Tiggertom would use quotation marks or the quote bar, just to avoid confusion, and provide the source for the other reasons you provide a source:
1) So you can evaluate the credibility of the quote (e.g., quoting Child's Play as a source on the Flaneass might get you canned);
2) So that others, who aren't aware of the source, can be let in on in a possibly informative work.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
vestcoat wrote:
So you referenced . . . JC Luxton . . . His article is long gone, but it seems like he didn't even read what he was pasting . . .
Sounds to me as though J.C. Luxton (whoever he is) isn't guilty of doing anything that WotC hasn't done . . . and with their own material. WotC can't seem to keep there facts straight either...
-First, from an ethical point of view, unwittingly quoting a plagiarist is not normally plagiarism (I can't think of any exceptions, actually). Now, the issue of the legal ramifications of copyright infringement might be different, and I'll leave the nitty gritty to others who might be more expert. However, just because one writer from a company (plagiarizes (or takes- did they have permission) does not entitle an outsider to do so (assuming that J C Luxton is an outsider).
It's not "important." Tiggertom posted what he did in direct response to a question from Iressi. Iressi didn't ask for the source and Tiggertom didn't offer one.
That's called an "A-B Conversation" and you are trying to "C" your way into it. You resurrected a 2 year old thread for no other reason than to criticize and argue, that much is apparent.
Tiggertom posted the thread, that means it's "his." Stop trying to "explain" your reasoning, it's unimportant. Are you the god damn F.B.I.? I suggest you take the matter to court, on behalf of whomever, and see if you can get someone fined, or jailed.
MS - have you never adapted ideas from a Canonfire discussion into your campaign? Have you never searched for old topics on a GH subject?
CF is a public resource. It doesn't matter it Tiggertom started this topic to solicit maps or advice or peddle PDF modules. This thread is no different than thousands of others on Canonfire: it's a Greyhawk discussion that evolved into what appears to be original, inspiring fan fiction.
If TT didn't want to mislead anyone, then he shouldn't have pasted someone's words without quotations into a public post with a title as general as "Nevond Nevnend" on a searchable website accessed by thousands of fans around the world. What did he think was going to happen? Starting threads and answering questions doesn't give him a plagiarism exemption.
Nice and polite just escapes your comprehension, doesn't it?
Let the author defend his own work. If he doesn't, then obviously he doesn't have a problem with it. Which means it's not your business. I'm an author, famous or not, and I most certainly do not need you -- or anybody else -- to defend, or protect, me or my work.
So why don't you write to David Cook and J.C. Luxton and ask them if they have a problem with it. If they do, you can tell them where to find the thread. If not . . .
Citing sources is the responsibly of the derivative author, not the author of the referenced work. There's no way writers can be expected to police their IP on countless internet forums.
Why do I care about WotC/Mr. Cook's IP? I don't. I care about the integrity of these forums. Again, CF is a public resource. The honesty of this community is important to everyone. Dishonesty is a slippery slope. Plagiarism isn't creative, it isn't ethical, it isn't even legal. Even Creative Commons artists demand attribution. Fan fiction moves up the food chain. GH fanon has a history of ending up in OJ or even WotC works.
I really can't understand your antagonism. This is English 101. I say "cite your sources" and you say "[plagiarism] is NOT 'important'", "stop trying to 'explain' your reasoning" and "are you the god damn F.B.I.?" I'm speechless.
As for "nice and polite", you really have to stop taking this personally. I'm not using any foul language, I'm not smearing anyone, and I'm trying not to be short or dismissive with you. All I'm asking for is the same honesty demanded by any community of writers. If you don't get the lesson here, you'll get it later in life.
So I have reviewed this. Here is the main bit that I think stands out:
vestcoat wrote:
Obviously, we're all building on derivative work, we're not writing college papers, and I'm not looking for full bibliographies, but pasting full chunks of someone's text into your own post is pretty messed up.
Yes, people should always cite there sources, even if simply (i.e. "Based on the article by X, I am developing Nevond Nevnend..."). If they have material that they cannot for the life of them remember where they go it from, they should still cite it as not being there own, but that they do not recall the source (as then somebody might know and inform them, at which time they can edit the information in). As to any sort of Article for Canonfire!, it would of course be better to hunt for the information first, rather than to put something out with an uncited source. With so much stuff "out there", people need to be conscious of knowing where they are getting what. You guys bring up rasgon, so look at his articles and posts. You will notice that he always mentions where any information that is not his own comes from. That's a good model to follow, and not just in Articles but in forum posts.
Anyways, leave off this line of discussion, and let it go back to what it was, which is hunting down information about Nevond Nevnend, working on a map, etc. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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