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    Canonfire :: View topic - What if the Demonomicon fell in GOOD hands?
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    What if the Demonomicon fell in GOOD hands?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
    Posts: 222
    From: Modena, Italy

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    Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:39 am  
    What if the Demonomicon fell in GOOD hands?

    In my campaign the party recovered the Demonomicon from the Caverns of Tsojcanth and brought it to Hazen in Mitrik... I admit it was unexpected, but I let them end their journey last session, and now they're in front of the Canon with the book in their hands. They have been attacked by several assassins in the journey, including Iuz priests and cultists of the black scrolls . But survived.
    I think it would have been unfair to just force the chance for such a powerful object not to fall in the Canon hands. Now the book holds TRUE NAMES of several demon lords, plus an unimaginable quantity if forbidden lore that could help Veluna and Furyoondy enormously...
    How do you think would Hazen handle it? Would he try to destroy it or use it to bind and destroy fiends? Would they use it against Iuz? I have no problems with f*cking the balance between GH factions and power centers, it it's the logical conclusion...
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:01 pm  

    Power corrupts . . . Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Evil Grin

    Too bad. Now we need another Canon in Veluna! Shocked

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:35 pm  

    Seriously. I think MS has the right of it. There are some things mortal men were not meant to mess with. Whether it is the thing that would happen or not, I think it is the thing that SHOULD happen. Happy
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    From: Ullinois

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    Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:14 pm  

    Interesting. I'm sure trapped demons could escape or influence the reader perhaps, but the book itself isn't sentient or aligned IIRC. I'm not even sure if it is artifact tough? The Canon would still destroy it given the chance, or lock it away as forbidden lore. Use it? Doubtful.

    Another thing I recall from a Dragon article is that there are multiple copies of the Demonomicon each with differing info. So it isn't necessarily useful to fight specific enemies unless you have the right copy.

    Bonus mort material: IMC I had the Demonomicons' pages bound with strands of Iggwilv's hair so that the books became spare components for her ressurection or cloning if needed.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:17 pm  

    Like Mtsocan said, the book contains the true names of many powerful demons. Many of the spells contained in the book are for banishing extra planar creatures rather than summoning/binding them(though those are of course in there too).

    Later material recounts that the Demonomicon was originally called the Tome of Zyx and that Iggwilv stole it from Zagig, and that Iggwilv added more material to it and renamed it the Demonomicon. Overall the book is filled with the sort of information that any spell worker with an interest in demons, and other extra-planar creatures, would want to get their hands on. That includes both vile practitioners like Iggwilv, Eli Tomorast and those of similar ilk, but also those who are the greatest foes of lower planar nasties like Canon Hazen or Alton(vassal of Tenser, and yet an equal of Bigby) and Timmil(a powerful priestly abjurer of demons) of the Gord the Rogue series. It is not just the bad guys that study demons. As the old saying goes "Know thy self, know thy enemy." Wink
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:09 pm  

    MToscan, I'm still impressed that your players were successful in wresting the tome out of the Lost Caverns! That must've been quite a feat indeed! What version of the module did you use?

    I'm currently running a player through that very adventure, and it's become an utter bloodbath, mainly b/c I added a rival faction loyal to the Old One seeking the same treasure trove (and a Death Knight serving Lerrek the lich). The resulting 3 way battles have left the death count soaring! The characters have barely scratched the surface and only recently made it to the Lower Caverns.

    At any rate, your players must've been really lucky, or really clever and powerful, to get through the Caverns and obtain that book, especially going through the vampiress warrior guardian. I doff my cap to them.

    As for what would Canon Hazen do? I think that I lean more towards Mystic's perspective, though the knowledge carried within does make one wonder if there is anything in the Demonomicon could be used for good (Divinations magicks would be helpful on that score). This situation is kinda like Sauron's One Ring...you remember how Gandalf wisely REFUSED to use the ring, however tempting it may be? He clearly outlined to Frodo that the One Ring was utterly evil, and no matter how he, Gandalf, would wish to use it for Good, it would ultimately result in the One Ring tainting him, and resulting in greater Evil. I think that this would be a good analogy to use in your game, though others within the Church of Rao may argue the point (as would other faiths in Veluna, if they caught wind of it).

    just my thoughts,

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:22 pm  

    Anyone even knowing what knowledge is to be had from that book would be put in mortal danger. Its not like there is an FBI's most wanted on the book, where its existence is household knowledge, either. I think the book would take a One-Ring course, and leap-frog from hand to hand due to various circumstances. It would either wind up a lost and forgotten tome amid a-hundred-thousand other tomes in a great library, or buried under a plain of salt (like in Warlock).
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:56 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...though the knowledge carried within does make one wonder if there is anything in the Demonomicon could be used for good (Divinations magicks would be helpful on that score).

    Look at the spells it contains.

    Cleric Spells: Abjure(banishes outer planar creatures; any alignment will have cause to do this, especially good alignments), Exaction(requires a duty or quest from a summoned being of similar alignment to the cleric, who must then reply in kind; all alignments can make such arragnelemtn with out planar powers/servants of said powers), Henley's Digit of Disruption(powerful positive energy bolt that destroys/damages undead and natives of the Negative Plane; all alignments can use this spell, but good alignments will obviously be more prone to using such a spell).

    Magic-User Spells: Banishment(all alignments can use it, but good alignments will more likely use it), Binding(all alignments can use it, but this is also the spell used to imprison a certain demon lord of fungi in certain place), Dismissal(all alignments can use it, but non-evil alignments are more likely to use it), Dolor(all alignments can use it, but non-good alignments are more likely to use it), Ensnarement(all alignments can use it, but non-evil alignments are more likely to use it), Torment(all alignments can use it, but non-evil alignments are more likely to use it).

    It is of note that some fiction has good wizards/clerics using many of the spells here that good folk normally wouldn't use so as to summon some demon and then force it to give up information important to the caster's cause. For instance, it is not so easy to summon/bind a demon lord and force it to give up info, but a lesser servant of said same demon lord, who may be privy to some info, will be much easier to break. And knowing true names makes some of those spells even easier to use.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:02 am  

    I ran a cross between all three versions of the module, using the original tourneament as the base and taking bits and pieces from the AD&D and 3E versions.
    Well the journey through the Caverns was not easy, as two characters fell (roper and fomorian/chinese giants encounters). In my chronology the caverns were already cleared by the pregen characters of the AD&D module, two of which were interrogated by the party before going up there. In my campaign the original party killed Drelzna, but could not find the Lanthorn, nor the Book, nor the Zagyg cage. The "new" party then went through the caves but found all rooms "reset". I hooked up the idea in the oiriginal tourneament module that the caves are extraplanar-nexuses (nexi?) where one party could see the other party going through the same adventure as translucent ghosts. So the Caverns that were cleared by the original group were not the same the party. The only non-multiple-dimensional room was Drelzna's. When the party arrived there, she was already "dead" (not true as she dug deeper in the caverns and found the old Acererak skull, now a demilich, but that's another story:)).

    The book they have now is the "original" demonomicon, first copy. They consigned it to Hazen in the end, or better they consigned it to the council of Mitrik. The characters were surprised to find Hazen completely devoured by the holy force of the Crook, which drained his life force during the ceremony for the Flight of Fiends. They found a Hazen which was a blind, skeletal, almost demented figure in the hands of the noble ruling families and the aggressive Celestial Order, leaving the council of Bishops run a fight for power very inspired by Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire". Bigby took the characters out of the hall where the council reunited to decide the future of the book. There were Furyondyan envoys, high clerics etc. all with different ideas. With Hazen apparently so feeble, the party now doubt they made the right choice. In truth the Canon is still very bright, preferring to lead the council subtly when they think he is out of business.
    Bigby informs the party another powerful person is overseeing the Demonomicon and will make sure it will not fall in bad hands (of course, we’re talking about Mordy).
    Now I am undecided how to handle the situation, certainly the council will be very aggressive, and it could be Hazen understands such knowledge could be too dangerous to let exist… or maybe someone could hire “Shadow” (IIRC it’s the thief who stole some important item from the treasures under Niole Dra) to take it out of business, maybe helped by two powerful archmages… or yet Iuz, now desperate for chronic lack of resources from his lands, and seeing a chance to end the war once and for all, could try a risky move to get his mother’s book… or maybe yet the Demonomicon could be a magic jar containing Iggwilv’s soul, and wome powerful bishop could be a potential host (maybe even Hazen if he leaves the Crook)… choices are endless!
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:57 am  

    If you decide to have the Demonomicon eventually find its way to Mordenkainen, you might check out the "Mordenkainen Evil?" thread found in the Greyhawk Heresy forum, here:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4050
    for ideas on what he might do with it. Even if you maintain him as purely neutrally aligned, there is no reason why he wouldn't use the knowledge in the book to further the ends of neutrality. He, of all people, could easily consider himself powerful enough to overcome the potential negative consequences of using of the book.

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 11, 2009
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    From: Wales

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    Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:57 pm  

    I will die a happy man now I have had a topic I started referenced Razz

    Seriously if you want to go do the heresy route I have a few pideas I ran about this, just PM and I'll see if I can did them up
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 833
    From: Houston Texas

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    Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:16 pm  
    Shadows on the move

    SirXaris wrote:
    If you decide to have the Demonomicon eventually find its way to Mordenkainen, you might check out the "Mordenkainen Evil?" thread found in the Greyhawk Heresy forum, here:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4050
    for ideas on what he might do with it. Even if you maintain him as purely neutrally aligned, there is no reason why he wouldn't use the knowledge in the book to further the ends of neutrality. He, of all people, could easily consider himself powerful enough to overcome the potential negative consequences of using of the book.
    SirXaris


    I think I like the idea of tying this in such a manner as you hint SirXaris. IMC, I have always established Mort as a Neutral with definitive tendencies to commit evil to maintain "his vision of balance".
    It gives me several ideas tying to a "greater purpose" with in my own campaign. IMC, I have a third more secretive element, our's (like many is not long after ASHES) still it contains the struggles within Iuz and others, however, the third element is I, The Dark Lord.... who's ambitions are my own.
    I can certainly see a manipulation of Mort, PCs, Iuz and those affected by them as a means to eliminate opposition with out direct confrontation. All the while strengthening my own position without any truly realizing the shadow in control of the fates.
    Mawaaahaaaahaaa .... the thoughts are truly worth visiting
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