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    Canonfire :: View topic - Keep-ing the Pomarj at bay...
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- D&D 3.0e/3.5e/d20/Pathfinder
    Keep-ing the Pomarj at bay...
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:16 pm  
    Keep-ing the Pomarj at bay...

    I've been given a copy of the original The Keep On The Borderlands to update for 3.5ed.

    This site says it's been placed in the WoG (the Yeomanry, to be precise) but isn't married to the idea, so to speak.


    I was thinking of placing it here (circled in red):



    It makes sense with what I know of the module.

    I figure its placement here is militarily sound since it's near enough to the river that it can be well supplied. The river also provides an escape route or a means for Ulek to lend swift support (the euroz and jebli aren't especially known for their naval/shipwright abilites, so Ulek likely controls the river).


    It's actually in the foothills if you look very closely (to toss the Caves of Chaos in there) but not far enough north to make the Wild Coast constest its location

    Plus, it would make a great supply/staging area for bands of mercs fighting in the Pomarj.



    Your thoughts?


    Last edited by DrassustheGaunt on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:59 pm  

    In my campaign, I have placed The Keep on the Borderlands in the northwestern Vesve Forest, just north of the Deepstil River. This placement is excellent, in my opinion, for several reasons.

    First, the Deepstil River and the forested hills admirably fit the map without having to fiddle with it. The road on the Keep's map leads travellers west for several dozen leagues before it splits, turning south along the High Vale and northwest around the mountains into Perrenland. To the east, the road runs north into the lands of the Wolf Nomads all the way to Eru Tovar. The road is little travelled and the lands around sparsely populated.

    Secondly, the Wood Elven Kingdom only claims the lands south of the Deepstil. The lands of the Keep are ruled by a knight from Perrenland I named Sir Dread Locks (for a laugh) who is off with most of the Keep's forces fighting the forces of Iuz who encroach on the Vesve from the east. Thus, a small number of his henchmen have been left in charge in his absence. These include the Castellan, the Gnomish Scribe, the Elven fighter/MU, and the head Cleric of the chapel. They are undermanned for maintaining proper patrols in Sir Locks' demense, hence the Caves of Chaos have become re-populated with humanoids.

    Thirdly, the eclectic collection of humanoids present in the Caves ravine is explained by the fact that they are small bands that have snuck past the front lines further east and gathered in this location by some of Iuz's minor priests for the purpose of coordinating guerilla strikes against goodly peoples. The plan is to gain converts and strike terror into the hearts of those who might oppose Iuz.

    However, others have their own, almost equally valid, choices of where to place the Keep in the World of Greyhawk. Razz Your choice is a good one, in my opinion, though in my campaign, the humanoids of the Pomarj are too powerful for the Keep to survive long unless it was a full military outpost of the Principality with about four times the number of soldiers as are listed in the module. However, a good source of support would be Sir Xaris and his forces, which are conveniently located close by... http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1013.

    My biggest suggestion is that, if you place the Keep anywhere within the Pomarj, it would realistically be almost constantly under siege. If the humanoids weren't patient enough to maintain a constant siege, there would, at least, be so many around that every single caravan to or from it would come under attack. Only powerfully protected caravans could hope to leave or arrive safely, but such forces would only attract more humanoids thirsty for war.

    SirXaris
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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:43 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    In my campaign, I have placed The Keep on the Borderlands in the northwestern Vesve Forest, just north of the Deepstil River. This placement is excellent, in my opinion, for several reasons...
    Thirdly, the eclectic collection of humanoids present in the Caves ravine is explained by the fact that they are small bands that have snuck past the front lines further east and gathered in this location by some of Iuz's minor priests for the purpose of coordinating guerilla strikes against goodly peoples. The plan is to gain converts and strike terror into the hearts of those who might oppose Iuz.


    I really appreciate the thorough reply.

    All the points you make are solid but the 3rd - to my mindset - is the most powerful as it makes a great in-story reason for the varied races of enemies.

    Plus, I neglected to mention, I prefer to play pre-Greyhawk Wars.

    Therefore it could be a nice piece of foreshadowing.


    I'll definitely look into the location you mention as you make a persuasive argument for it.


    SirXaris wrote:
    My biggest suggestion is that, if you place the Keep anywhere within the Pomarj, it would realistically be almost constantly under siege. If the humanoids weren't patient enough to maintain a constant siege, there would, at least, be so many around that every single caravan to or from it would come under attack. Only powerfully protected caravans could hope to leave or arrive safely, but such forces would only attract more humanoids thirsty for war.



    I think, were it pre-Greyhawk Wars, it might be reasonable but I certainly see your point.

    Out of curiosity, when you ran it, did you make any significant changes to the module?

    Also, is there a special forum for campaigns circa 576CY?
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    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:50 am  

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:

    Plus, I neglected to mention, I prefer to play pre-Greyhawk Wars.

    Therefore it could be a nice piece of foreshadowing.


    Yep, that's the time period I usually run it in also. Since the Greyhawk Wars end with Iuz only partially in control of the Vesve, the whole situation works just as well then, but I prefer Greyhawk pre-Wars.

    Quote:

    Out of curiosity, when you ran it, did you make any significant changes to the module?


    I updated the monster stats for newer editions, adapted some personalities from the module Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (though I didn't like it much otherwise), and added lots of wandering monsters, and other NPCs, such as Sir Bluto Sans Pite from White Plume Mountain. He's an evil Cavalier with a cadre of knights and Men-at-Arms who harass the low-level PCs during the adventure. I added three adventuring parties (Evil, Neutral, and Good) as potential foils, etc. I made the evil Clerics servants of Iuz (including the spy in the Keep), and gave the Ogre a two-handed sword with an ivory skull in the pommel as a gift from the Iuzian Clerics. Lot's more small stuff that every DM does. Oh, I changed the Cave of the Unknown to be a small watch tower, originally, that now is only a pile of rubble. Players climbing on it fall into a basement with a skeleton warrior and skeletons (ala Conan the Barbarian). Wink

    SirXaris

    Also, is there a special forum for campaigns circa 576CY?[/quote]
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:19 am  

    If you don't know about this already, there is a keep called Strandkeep Castle near that location. It get's mentioned in Artifact of Evil and some people have done their own stuff with it in a couple of other places. Just google to find them. I've also got a Principality of Ulek map someone made that you might find useful.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:57 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Yep, that's the time period I usually run it in also... I prefer Greyhawk pre-Wars.


    Very pleased to see I'm not alone.

    Quote:
    I updated the monster stats for newer editions, adapted some personalities from the module Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (though I didn't like it much otherwise), and added lots of wandering monsters, and other NPCs, such as Sir Bluto Sans Pite from White Plume Mountain. He's an evil Cavalier with a cadre of knights and Men-at-Arms who harass the low-level PCs during the adventure. I added three adventuring parties (Evil, Neutral, and Good) as potential foils, etc. I made the evil Clerics servants of Iuz (including the spy in the Keep), and gave the Ogre a two-handed sword with an ivory skull in the pommel as a gift from the Iuzian Clerics. Lot's more small stuff that every DM does. Oh, I changed the Cave of the Unknown to be a small watch tower, originally, that now is only a pile of rubble. Players climbing on it fall into a basement with a skeleton warrior and skeletons (ala Conan the Barbarian). Wink


    Wow, great job!

    I'm a huge fan of the little touches and such like that.

    Maybe one day I'll tell you guys the story of the ogre that used a ceiling beam (along with some attached masonry) as a club. Wink

    I look forward to hearing more about your adaptations/conversions as it seems we have rather similar styles.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:03 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    If you don't know about this already, there is a keep called Strandkeep Castle near that location. It get's mentioned in Artifact of Evil and some people have done their own stuff with it in a couple of other places. Just google to find them. I've also got a Principality of Ulek map someone made that you might find useful.



    Just took your advice.

    It's very cool.

    Thanks for the heads-up.

    Also, although I left a comment, I want to say again:

    Great job on your article (The Gibbeted Goblin).

    I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:51 pm  

    Hey, thanks for the compliment! Smile I'll look forward to articles and postfest submissions from you. No pressure, though. Wink

    I don't know if you ever saw it, but the LG Principality of Ulek site is still up - http://www.thepou.net/. There is some nice info and maps there to draw inspiration from.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:11 pm  

    SirXaris,

    You say the Keep is here:



    Correct?


    Last edited by DrassustheGaunt on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:44 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Hey, thanks for the compliment! Smile I'll look forward to articles and postfest submissions from you. No pressure, though. Wink

    I don't know if you ever saw it, but the LG Principality of Ulek site is still up - http://www.thepou.net/. There is some nice info and maps there to draw inspiration from.


    Hey, you earned the kind words.

    I just gave them. Smile

    And thanks for the site, it certainly will be helpful.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:15 pm  

    Yes, Drassus. That is it exactly.

    Note the forested hills, the river near enough to its source to have a swamp near the keep (I place a ford just upriver of the swamp, immediately south of the keep on the close-up map). It is truly a 'borderland' as it isn't claimed by any nation. Even the Wood Elves only claim up to the south edge of the river. Woodsmen and demi humans live their in scattered steadings, etc.

    I like that it is close enough to Iuz that I can use him as a foil for the PCs to work toward eventually confronting. Of course, this means that they will also eventually come into conflict with his mother... Evil Grin

    SirXaris
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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:19 pm  

    SirXaris,

    I admit, I'm a tough man to make change his stance but I do believe you have me seriously questioning my choice.

    Not that I don't have good reasons for my choice but there's just so many better reasons for your location.

    The only reason I'm clinging to my choice at all is that the place I'd like to explore are closer to the locale I've chosen.

    Then again, I'm a creative guy... Idea
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:36 am  

    No problem, Drassus. Smile Consider also the next adventures you want to take your players through.

    I generally follow the Keep with Fiend's Embrace (Dungeon 121) as I mentioned in GreyChat. It takes place in the Cold Fens north of the Vesve. I then lead my PCs back to the Vesve for some battles against Iuz's forces. From there, they head to the forested Sepia Uplands, where I've located Castle Ravenloft, and south into the Yatils to explore the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. We then take a jaunt over to White Plume Mountain in the Bandit Kingdoms and end up taking ship all the way to the southern Vohoun Ocean in search of the Isle of Dread. Upon returning, they adventure Against the Giants and make a Descent Into the Depths of the Earth all the way to the Vault of the Drow. Eventually, they confront Lolth, herself, in the Demonweb Pits. If they still wish to play these PCs, I have them explore the Isle of the Ape. Evil Grin

    Of course, I adjust the difficulty of these adventures to fit the PC's levels while I convert to 3.5e/Pathfinder.

    If you place the Keep in the Pomarj, you can follow easily with the Slavers modules, which are some of the finest old-school adventures like the ones I use above. The Isle of Dread is easily accessed by ship from the Pomarj as well. Alternatively, exploration of the environs of the Keep could be followed by an assault upon the Temple of Elemental Evil. Either skip the Moathouse or increase its difficulty for PCs who've already advanced to about 3rd level. From there, they could head to Geoff to face the Giants or various other higher-level adventures. Be sure you have your PCs stop by Eastboro and introduce themselves to Sir Xaris and Lady Xristine at Castle Sanctigaard. Wink

    Perhaps this part of your plan will help you make a final decision about where to locate the Keep.

    Realize that, whatever printed adventure path you choose to set your players on, you'll need to fill in the gaps with lots of side treks of your own design or from other source material. Making them up yourself is the most fun and gives you more experience as a DM, so I suggest you do as much of that as you can. Also, be sure to alter the printed adventures to fit your campaign and your players' expectations for a good time.

    SirXaris
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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:05 am  

    Phenomenal reply, SirXaris.

    Many thanks.

    You guessed with 100% accuracy my course of action, no doubt.

    Though, I'm starting to like yours as my players will never see that coming!

    And, while your advice about DMing is spot on, I have so many years of it and logged so many hours under my belt, it's the reason I've gone back to modules:

    To make things a little easier on myself. Laughing

    Though, of course, I end up altering the modules to suit the group and my own sensibilities.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:08 pm  

    Sorry, I didn't know if you were an experienced DM or not. Wink

    Here are a few suggestions from my own Keep on the Borderlands campaign.

    1) Convert the monsters' stats to the proper edition you'll be playing. That also means that you should improve their possessions (eg. the Iuzian clerics have gifted the ogre with a two-handed sword as mentioned above) and give leaders class levels (Warrior, Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, etc.), if you are playing 3.5e. In addition, you should probably add an ocassional shaman or witchdoctor to the humanoid tribes. I like to add a few worgs to the goblins' strength (especially fun to chase down retreating PCs with Evil Grin ), a couple of dire weasels to the Kobold king's retinue, and some hyenas to the gnoll tribe.

    2) Improve the Wandering Monster Table. I wrote up three separate wandering monster tables with percentages and descriptions full of stats - one for encounters on the road/open terrain, forest, and swamp. I did not add any planned encounters to the swamp, but made sure that it was the very most dangerous place on the map. The PCs were warned away from it and I use it as a place for them to explore when the Caves are cleared and the PCs need a little bit more experience to raise to the next level before moving on to the next adventure.

    3) Add traps! I have the goblins set up trip wires and crossbow traps, though they aren't the most accurate or difficult to find. When the PCs retreat after their initial foray into the goblins' caves, the goblins set more traps and some barracades that they hide behind with missile weapons. Being less than geniuses, the goblins tend to cut themselves off in the side passages once the PCs begin to advance down the hallway. rolleyes The Minotaur has a pit trap with spikes on the floor and bells on the lid and a net trap with bells followed by a spear trap from the wall. These two traps cover the two passages that provide direct entry to his lair. Until the PCs find their way into his lair, he makes hit-and-run attacks against the PCs. This tends to infuriate them. Evil Grin

    4) Come up with some better rumors for the PCs to learn. They need to be pieces of information that specifically inform them of the situation around the Keep or in the world at large in your campaign. For example, Why is the Lord of the Keep away leaving the Castellan in charge? Why was the Keep built here in the first place and who built it? Who pays homage to the Lord/Lady of the Keep? Is s/he a beneficent ruler or a despot? Are the troops alert from constant attacks or are they lackadaisical due to a relatively peaceful existance? Who does the Lord or Lady owe fealty to and how is their relationship with that entity?

    5) I suggest you go through the adventure and alter the magical treasures to fit the PCs you have going through it. That doesn't mean that every piece of magical equipment must be useable by one of your PCs, but if you have a wizard in the group, make sure there are a few scrolls with fun spells for him to find (witchdoctors work well for this Wink ). If there is a halfling paladin in the group, change the man-sized plate mail +1 in the Minotaur's lair to halfling-sized. For my own campaign, I add some magic to what is listed, especially potions and other one-shot items.

    Oh, and here's a description of my favorite part of the Keep on the Borderlands: the Mad Hermit.

    As the party is traveling through the forest single file (it's dense) along an animal trail, they pass beneath the Mad Hermit and his pet mountain lion hiding in the branches of the trees above them. The hermit drops onto the back of the horse of the last party member and steals a random item from that PC's backpack. He then drops to the ground and steps under the horse (he's almost as small as a halfling - could be a halfling, in fact) and cuts the saddle strap. He then runs away into the forest. If any other PC tries to attack the hermit with missile weapons or spells, the mountain lion jumps down on them (striking from behind because they turned around to target the hermit in the back). As the hermit escapes, so does the mountain lion. The PC who had the girth strap holding his saddle in place cut must make an appropriate check (as determined by you) to keep his or her balance if they try to make an attack of any kind as their saddle slips off their horse. The PCs now will do every thing they can to find the hermit and get their stolen stuff back. Repeat such attacks as often as the PCs set themselves up for it.

    I had one group chase after him with a couple of war dogs. This eventually worked, but the hermit led them through traps he had set in the woods and escaped several times before they were able to catch him. Smile

    Hope this helps a bit.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:18 pm  

    SirXaris,

    That's excellent! Thanks for the very in-depth reply. I'm so glad I came here before jumping back into WoG on my own.

    I very much like what you did with the Mad Hermit; it's a good way to speed the pace of the game without necessarily using combat - as some parties - most likely Good, would really just want their stuff back more than kill transgressor.

    I do, in fact, prefer 3.5 (I might even look into pathfinder) so I'll definitely use the NPC classes you mentioned.

    Also, I agree with being a bit more free-handed with scrolls and potions; they are still fairly "low magic" and their very nature makes them easy to monitor yet the simple fact they are magical keeps the players interested.

    Again, your words are much appreciated.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:23 pm  

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:

    Also, I agree with being a bit more free-handed with scrolls and potions; they are still fairly "low magic" and their very nature makes them easy to monitor yet the simple fact they are magical keeps the players interested.


    Yes, to that. Also, I like to play the monsters appropriately to their intelligence, which I interpret to mean 'deadly'. So, I give the party a bit more magic to buff themselves in order to survive the dangerous encounters they find themselves in. Realistically, no first level party should be able to walk into the even the goblin or kobold caves and defeat them all in one go. I make sure the party is all 2nd level before they even find the Caves of Chaos and they always have to fall back, rest, heal, and renew spells before they make a second go of it. Usually, they make that retreat while being chased by worg riders. I herd them to the rubble mound that is all that remains of the tower (Cave of the Unknown), where they are caught and have to make their last stand. If necessary, a special group consisting of one of my own characters and a few of her henchmen rescue them there. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:28 pm  

    Count me in your camp on this one ▼

    SirXaris wrote:
    Also, I like to play the monsters appropriately to their intelligence, which I interpret to mean 'deadly'. So, I give the party a bit more magic to buff themselves in order to survive the dangerous encounters they find themselves in. Realistically, no first level party should be able to walk into the even the goblin or kobold caves and defeat them all in one go.


    I think that's something that gets overlooked far too often.

    Especially in 1st ed where they aren't stat-ed but it says specifically how smart they really are, IIRC.
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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:31 pm  

    I neglected to mention, regarding potions and scrolls... ▼

    If you find that you accidently gave out a bit too many, then it's helpful to remember two things:

    1} Glass breaks

    2} Paper burns



    Evil
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:05 pm  

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:
    I neglected to mention, regarding potions and scrolls... ▼

    If you find that you accidently gave out a bit too many, then it's helpful to remember two things:

    1} Glass breaks

    2} Paper burns



    Evil


    Lol! Yep, give the hobgoblin witchdoctor a scroll with Fireball or Lightning Bolt on it and force item saving throws on every PC who fails their own save. Evil Grin

    SirXaris
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:24 pm  

    Of course the bad guys can always use those items instead. I remember one encounter where the big bad drank a potion and one of us (I think it was the bard) screamed. "HEY THAT JERK'S DRINKING OUR TREASURE!"
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:43 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lol! Yep, give the hobgoblin witchdoctor a scroll with Fireball or Lightning Bolt on it and force item saving throws on every PC who fails their own save. Evil Grin

    SirXaris



    Very nice. Evil Grin
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:45 pm  

    KierWyldwynd wrote:
    "HEY THAT JERK'S DRINKING OUR TREASURE!"


    HAHAHAHA!

    Perfect.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:48 pm  

    KierWyldwynd wrote:
    Of course the bad guys can always use those items instead. I remember one encounter where the big bad drank a potion and one of us (I think it was the bard) screamed. "HEY THAT JERK'S DRINKING OUR TREASURE!"


    Yes, very true! My players almost never find magical treasure in chests or in hidden caches. They find it on the bodies of their dead opponents. They usually have to kill said opponents quickly if they hope to acquire any of their potions. Cool

    SirXaris
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:50 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    They find it on the bodies of their dead opponents. They usually have to kill said opponents quickly if they hope to acquire any of their potions. Cool

    SirXaris



    And hopefully the fallen don't fall on them. Wink
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