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    Canonfire :: View topic - Celbits and Jebli
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    Celbits and Jebli
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:13 am  
    Celbits and Jebli

    Qhat's the official take on jebli and celbits?
    Are they orc ethnic groups or flan names of goblins and kobolds?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:22 am  
    Re: Celbits and Jebli

    MToscan wrote:
    Qhat's the official take on jebli and celbits?
    Are they orc ethnic groups or flan names of goblins and kobolds?


    Flan names of the different humanoid species. same with hobniz, etc.

    Joe / GG
    http://www.greyhawkgrognard.com
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:52 am  

    Joe is right.

    Here is a list of many of the names. Paul Stromberg explains, in a thread on Dragonsfoot, that all these names are actually gnomish words, rather than Flan, but others insist that a Flan origin is more appropriate. The thread ends with an answer, purportedly from EGG, that he had neither origin in mind, but only wanted to replace the common, modern, names of such creatures with more interesting words. So, it seems we are all free to determine their origin as we see fit for our own campaigns. Smile

    Humanoids
    Jebli = goblin
    Celbit = kobold
    Eiger = ogre
    Hi(gh) jebline(jeblinc) = hobgoblin
    Euroz = orc
    Kell = gnoll
    Buheer = bugbear
    Jialt = giant

    Demi-humans
    Hobniz (Hob-niz)= halfling
    Noniz (Nonuz, Neblin)= gnome
    Dwur = dwarf
    Olve = elf
    Duergar = grey dwarf
    Svirfneblin = deep gnome
    Drow = dark elf

    Did I miss any? Razz

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:29 pm  

    You're right, I wasn't clear in my question :)
    I knew the flan name thing, and I know that this is the official take, but Sargent took the words jebli and celbit to define specific tribes of orcs in Iuz The Evil, so I was not sure wether this new meaning for the words took over the older one.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:07 pm  

    I see. Sargent simply failed to understand how Gygax initially used the words (a failure of research), or he simply decided it would be more interesting to use those names as tribal names. It is even possible that he used them initially as place-holders, but never got around to replacing them with his own inventions.

    As a result, it is a bit confusing, but most Greyhawkers consider jebli and celbit to be vernacular for 'goblin' and 'kobold' generically, rather than the names of specific tribes of those creatures.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:55 pm  

    The "Celbit as an orc tribe" thing only existed in Sargent's writings. When Roger E. Moore took over the reigns in 1998, he made it clear that Celbit, Jebli, Euroz, and so on were the names of humanoid races, and this has continued to be the case in all subsequent sources.
    Paladin

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:16 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Joe is right.

    Here is a list of many of the names. Paul Stromberg explains, in a thread on Dragonsfoot, that all these names are actually gnomish words, rather than Flan, but others insist that a Flan origin is more appropriate. The thread ends with an answer, purportedly from EGG, that he had neither origin in mind, but only wanted to replace the common, modern, names of such creatures with more interesting words. So, it seems we are all free to determine their origin as we see fit for our own campaigns. Smile

    Drow = dark elf
    SirXaris

    Interesting, Because in the particular case of the word "Drow".. I recall the etomology to be from a combonation of Tolkien Elvish words EGG built from.. and then it was duplicated in FR.
    A Shortened version of dhaeraow (the elven word for blood traitor)and pronounced (Daa . ee . raaoow). Though it eludes me to where I read this.. maybe an old Dragon EGG article? or Ecology of?
    Anyway, Most of Tolkiens words came from his creation of his own language base.
    On a more general note for any that this sort of thing interests.... here is a Quick Reference and a more exhaustive Sindarian Dictionary Though in the case of this particular word, it is an informal between Sindarian and Quenya see Here for the history.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:27 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Interesting, Because in the particular case of the word "Drow".. I recall the etomology to be from a combonation of Tolkien Elvish words EGG built from.. and then it was duplicated in FR.


    No, "drow" (also trow) is from the folklore of the Orkney and Shetland isles. It's probably related to the Old Norse troll.

    Gary Gygax didn't build from Tolkien's languages, except for using Radigast as a place name.

    There is, however, no reason to think that drow, duergar, or svirfneblin are words of Flan derivation. More likely, they're words in the elvish, dwarvish, and gnomish tongues.

    Gygax intended the "Flan" words to be words from an older form of Common, which makes more sense considering how closely they resemble the modern Common words for the various races.

    Quote:
    A Shortened version of dhaeraow (the elven word for blood traitor)and pronounced (Daa . ee . raaoow).


    That's completely a Forgotten Realms thing; Gygax and Tolkien had nothing to do with it. I see it mentioned in the Forgotten Realms god book Demihuman Deities, which defines dhaeraow as face of shadow, heart of night, and traitor.

    An alternate etymology in 3rd edition's Drow of the Underdark had the word drow being derived from the Elvish duaral, a word meaning "Hunters of the Crescent Moon."

    Quote:
    On a more general note for any that this sort of thing interests.... here is a Quick Reference and a more exhaustive Sindarian Dictionary Though in the case of this particular word, it is an informal between Sindarian and Quenya see Here for the history.


    Your first link leads to a page about the Forgotten Realms version of the Elvish (Tel-Quessir, in the Realms) language, while your second link is about Tolkien's Sindarin language. Whoever made the Tel-Quessir page based some of the vocabulary on Quenya and some of it from D&D sources (for example, Mith'Quessir is pure Forgotten Realms, not Quenya). Regardless, dhaereow is not a Tolkien-coined word.

    SirXaris wrote:

    Did I miss any?


    Trulent is troll.
    Hoch jebline is hobgoblin.
    Buchveer is bugbear.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:51 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Trulent is troll.
    Hoch jebline is hobgoblin.
    Buchveer is bugbear.


    I remember those, now that you mention them, but can't remember where I read them. Can you tell me where to look?

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:30 am  

    I used the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer as my reference for the names.
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:58 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I used the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer as my reference for the names.


    Thanks Rasgon! Happy

    SirXaris
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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:32 am  

    I am SO grateful the MToscan brought this up. I had this question a few months ago, but could find only no explanation as to what a "celbit' orc was! Mr. Sargeant cast confusion with this one.

    So TYVM MToscan!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:13 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    There is, however, no reason to think that drow, duergar, or svirfneblin are words of Flan derivation. More likely, they're words in the elvish, dwarvish, and gnomish tongues.

    That is exactly my opinion as well. I don't recall there ever being any sort of reference like, "Duergar, called X by dwarves, are cousins of the dwarves.", or similar for these other races. The more common (human) names of those races are "dark elves" (though that term means "evil elf" among elves, so any non-drow elf that was evil would be a "dark elf"), "gray dwarves", and "deep gnomes". It would be these names that any human terms should be based on. So, just find the Flan words for "dark", "gray", and "deep", add them to the beginning of the terms "olve", "dwur", and "noniz", and there we have it. Happy
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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:56 am  

    I'll second (third? lost track) the assertion that "drow" has no relation to JRRT.

    The name "duergar" almost certainly derives from real-life dverg (Norse I think) or dwerg (Old English) - so while it's meant to signify the gray dwarves of D&D, its literal meaning is just "dwarves."

    I can't locate any real etymology for svirfneblin - "svir" is a Danish word for merriment, cheerfulness, etc., and probably has similar forms in other Norse-derived languages. Though I can't say this has anything to do with the personality of Deep Gnomes, who are supposed to be more sober than their surface cousins.

    Did Gygax introduce the word "drow" in G3, or did it have a prior publication? And when did svirfneblin first appear, in MM2 or a module?
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:41 pm  

    Duergars are from Northumberland's folklore. They were wicked dwarfs, skilled in illusion, who misdirected and murdered travelers in the Simonside Hills.

    Drow were mentioned in the 1st edition Monster Manual I. "The drow, or black elves, are only legend..." That book was published in 1977; the G series was published in 1978.

    The svirfneblin first appeared in D2 and D3 and later appeared in the Fiend Folio.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:11 pm  

    Props to this thread for its information.

    The same to Sir Xaris for his excellent list of names - there was a new one in there I'd not run into before (that I recall):

    Jialt = giant

    Always enjoy discovering collect new lore tidbits!

    Smile
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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:11 pm  

    rasgon wrote:


    Drow were mentioned in the 1st edition Monster Manual I. "The drow, or black elves, are only legend..." That book was published in 1977; the G series was published in 1978.



    Just wondering: is there a GH canon story of the origin of the drow?
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:34 pm  

    The Complete Book of Elves, and many other sources, describe how the drow elves broke off in ancient history when their ancestors dabbled in the Dark Arts because of Lolth's influence. They are, basically, 'fallen elves' and are cast out. Their black skin is less about living underground (they, technically, should be pale or complete albino) and more about their "dark" and evil hearts.

    Drow were officially introduced in The Fiend Folio.

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:17 pm  

    Chevalier wrote:
    I can't locate any real etymology for svirfneblin - "svir" is a Danish word for merriment, cheerfulness, etc., and probably has similar forms in other Norse-derived languages. Though I can't say this has anything to do with the personality of Deep Gnomes, who are supposed to be more sober than their surface cousins.


    I've always thought it was a little too coincidental that neblin sounded a lot like Nibling (Nybling), an alternate name for the dwarf Andvari in some versions of the story of Siegfried. In Wagner, Nibelung may refer to dwarves in general. Yeah, I know dwarves aren't gnomes, but Drow (Trolls) are trolls, not elves, and svartálfr (Dark Elves) are dwarves in mythology.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:44 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    The Complete Book of Elves, and many other sources, describe how the drow elves broke off in ancient history when their ancestors dabbled in the Dark Arts because of Lolth's influence. They are, basically, 'fallen elves' and are cast out. Their black skin is less about living underground (they, technically, should be pale or complete albino) and more about their "dark" and evil hearts.

    Drow were officially introduced in The Fiend Folio.

    -Lanthorn


    I'm not sure The Complete Book of Elves counts as a Greyhawk source. If you believe its account, the Elfwar between the elves and drow may or may not have taken place on Oerth (page 26: "Perhaps the true birthplace of the elves is lost in the shadows of time, or perhaps it was destroyed during the great Elfwar. Whatever the case, it is likely that Oerth is not the origin planet.") The implication in that book was that the war occurred on the elven homeworld and the elves later on scattered to various other worlds, including Oerth.

    However, other sources do suggest that the elves and drow fought a war on Oerth. The first place drow were statted for AD&D was G3, Hall of the Fire Giant King, which said this:

    Quote:
    Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord, and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However, constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld.


    The "Vault of the Drow" article in Dragon #298 is mostly the same, but adds that "the most evil and ambitious of these drow venerated Lolth, Queen of the Spiders, and they, having imbibed of her venomous ichor, became the nobles of their kind. By demon-endowed fertility the drow multiplied and grew strong again in the underworld, their race born anew and nurtured in the balm of darkness." Soon, their priestesses leading them ever deeper, they built Erelhei-Cinlu, their principal city.

    One source that ties the war with the drow directly into Oerth's history is Dragon #155's "In the Frost and the Snow." That article introduced a new elven subrace, the snow elves, said to live in the Crystalmist Mountains.

    Quote:
    The rift between the snow elves and their cousins stems from the same wars that drove the drow underground. The snow elves were deceived into allowing passage (for a large profit) of the drow through a mountain pass they controlled, not knowing (so they claimed) that the drow were serving Lolth and had recently declared war on their cousin elves. While never formally condemned by their relatives, the snow elves have been universally shunned by them ever since. Valley elves, themselves largely disliked by others, tolerate snow elves perhaps because each views the other as sharing a similar plight - neither race is considered "true elves" by their cousins.


    That's really the only record we have of the war happening on a recognizable part of Oerth's surface; apparently drow troops moved through a pass in the Crystalmists at some point during the wars, which suggests battles might have taken place both in the Flanaess and in the lands to the west.

    The Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (which, again, I wouldn't consider to be a Greyhawk source exactly, necessarily) by Douglas Niles expanded the idea of the elfwar into a grander conflict, the Alignment Wars.

    Quote:
    Then came the great Alignment Wars. These were actually all a part of a single grand conflict that spanned centuries, with occasional truces that lasted a few decades. The Alignment Wars were characterized by great interracial cooperation and intraracial combat. The sides were determined not by race, but by alignment. Thus, elves, dwarves, and men of good alignment united to fight elves, dwarves, and men of evil alignment. The wars extended to the seas, where the flourishing race of kuo-toa chose to align with the forces of evil and fight against the marine creatures of good...


    This strikes me as overly simplistic. Other sources have the exile of the duergar entirely separate from the descent of the drow (in the Forgotten Realms, the duergar were created when a clan of dwarves was enslaved by the mind flayers; Monster Mythology suggests the exile of the duergar might have been a voluntary decision on their part, separating themselves from their kin out of loyalty toward their patron god, who left the pantheon over a point of honor). Erik Mona's story of the war between the elves and the kuo-toa has it happening long before the war with the drow. I mostly prefer these events as separate, unrelated conflicts, personally, though I can imagine the Regalia of Might could have sparked a massive conflict similar to the Alignment Wars. Perhaps the duergar had the Crown of Evil, the kuo-toa had the Scepter of Evil, and the drow had the Orb of Evil while the dwarves had the Crown of Good, the humans had the Scepter of Good, and the elves had the Orb of Good. Which races would have had the Regalia of Neutrality, then? Perhaps the valley elves had the Orb of Neutrality, the quaggoths had the Scepter of Neutrality, and svirfneblin had the Crown of Neutrality.

    Exactly when these wars might have happened is more speculative. In the Forgotten Realms, the Descent of the Drow was -10,000 DR, which is approximately equivalent to -10,820 CY on Oerth's calendar. Of course, there's no guarantee the war happened at the same time on both worlds. The Alignment Wars might conceivably be the same as (or the predecessor of) the Wars of Light and Darkness that drove the Baklunish from their homeland in the west across the Tyurzi Mountains into their present lands between the Tyurzi and Crystalmist Mountains. This happened over 3,000 years ago, in the time of Azor'alq. Maybe after the drow were driven into the underworld the Regalia of Might passed into the hands of the ancestors of the Baklunish, and the wars began again among the humans of the west. The Regalia might later tie into the oppression of the Oeridian kingdoms and the foundation of the Celestial Imperium.

    This is all supposition, of course. If you think the Regalia of Might should tie into the Alignment Wars, they might have passed through many more hands, over a considerably longer period of time. Maybe in the beginning the Regalia of Evil belonged to the kuo-toa, troglodytes, and bullywugs and the Regalia of Good belonged to the elves, humans, and gnomes. Only centuries or millennia later did the Regalia of Evil fall into the hands of wicked elves and dwarves, and not necessarily at the same time. Who knows? It depends on how much history you want or need.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:39 pm  

    The drow history in Monster Mythology should be considered canon as Sargent wrote it and FtA simultaneously, both works reference the other, and Gygax material was rigorously incorporated.

    Carl Sargent wrote:
    Corellon is also held to have banished the dark elves (Drow) from the surface world, after the evil Lolth corrupted some of the elves. The existence of Drow is a source of shame to the surface elves, a counter to any excessive pride they may feel in their prowess and talents, and a moral tale for them (many elven myths stress the need to avoid overweening pride lest they be corrupted again). The corrupting evil without (Lolth) has no power without the seed of corruption within. Corellon's triumph over Lolth and the driving down of the Drow features as an epic massed battle in elven myth. As Corellon drove Lolth into the Underdark, the black clouds of obscurement generated by that hated spider-queen dissipated over the battlefield and allowed the light of the sun to bathe the hitherto darkened plains. The Drow fled in fear, to the dismal lands they now in-habit. Corellon is, to be sure, an artist and poet, a musician and bard, and a patron of magic; but he is ever the warrior. Elves do not forget this.
    -DMGR4 p17

    The key point here is that Lolth didn't make elves evil, some were already ripe for it.

    The 3E book Drow of the Underdark is also GH canon as it extensively details the Vault of the Drow. It contain no less than three different creation myths, all from the drow perspective.

    1) "The Expulsion": first there were elves; then came the short-lived men and orcs who begun to spread rapidly; Lolth grew alarmed and wanted to make the elves more warlike so they could dominate the other races; Corellon disagreed; Lolth begun to teach her followers dark arts in secret; the Seldarine found out and expeled the drow in a great war.

    2) "The Exodus" is the same except the civil war never happened - Lolth quietly drew her followers into the underdark before the Seldarine could muster their forces. This version is more popular with drow.

    3) The third myth, "First Among Elves", states that the underground drow were the first elves, Lolth selected the strongest to serve her, and banished the rest to the surface.

    Myths #2 & 3 are most likely false. The interesting point to be gleaned from all of this is that Lolth's desire for elves to dominate all other races was the catalyst for her corruption of the dark elves. No where else has explained why she broke from the Seldarine and begun to corrupt elves.

    Finally, going on something of a tangent, Roger Moore explained the creation of Valley Elves and their relationship to the drow in his long-lost "Valley Elf Kit" that I can't find anywhere online (excuse my cheap OCR software):
    Roger Moore wrote:

    It is said by other elves of the Flanaess that they dislike valley elves because they work for a human wizard and a drow. This Comment appears in WG12 Vale of the Mage, in The Complete Book of Elves, and in MC5 Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk appendix. This is not completely correct, but other elves will not discuss with other races the exact nature of their conflict with valley elves. The truth (at least as I see it) is this: Valley elves are descended from a group of elves of the Flanaess who refused to support Corellon Larethian during the war with Lolth, ages ago. They also refused to take the side of LoIth, withdrawing from the conflict entirely and rejecting the elve.n pantheon as a whole for actions that the ancestral group of elves felt disgraced all elves. The other bright elves cast the elves who refused to take sides out of their clans, tribes, and cities, forcing them to take up residence in a great, isolated valley_ The exiled elves—valley elves—live there today. As a result, valley elves of the Flanaess will not ever worship an elven deity from the Seldarine, nor any other deity. The Seldarine would not have them back if they asked, and Lolth will not accept their worship, either. LoIth's forces have no objection to killing valley elves, as they regard them as just as had as any other surface-world elf, and elves who are Seldarine followers also bear enormous hatred for the present-day valley elves, who--even though they are far, far removed from those. past events—still believe. their ancestors did the right thing in rejecting all elven gods for their ugly civil war. Valley elves are a touch self-righteous and prideful about their ancestors' stand. Other elves regard valley elves as immoral, irresponsible, unfaithful, arrogant, treacherous, and (of course) wrong. That the valley elves now work for a drow(!) is anathema to them, totally unbelievable. Interestingly, details on this age-old rift are in plain view for every other race to see, appearing in elven legends and lore handed down across the Flanaess among all groups of elves: gray, high, sylvan, and even aquatic and drow. However, only elves are able to recognize the oblique references and disguised remarks in their literature about the role the ancestors of the valley elves played in the Corellon-Lolth conflict. All other races miss the references entirely, and elves are still so angry about the event that they will not bother to explain it to anyone. (Not even elf player characters will have told anyone this, and now we know why.) W012 Vale of the Mage notes that the valley elves currently worship Ehlonna, who is a local human/elven deity of the Flanaess. I would say that this is not possible, and would discard that reference (which is not supported elsewhere, as far as I can tell). I would have it that the valley elves had no clerics at all now; no good deities will have them, and evil deities would only destroy them. The valley elves have come to reject all deities, believing only in themselves. (This has made them look only worse in the eyes of other elves, who view the valley elves now as cursed.) The valley elves are spiritually adrift, weak in wisdom, keeping to themselves and their vale. Little wonder that when the Mage appeared and offered to lead them, they jumped at the chance to have him do just that. He is, in a way, their current deity. He is a human, and they know that, but they do not care. He offered to lead, and they needed to be led. No wonder other elves call the valley elves by the Elvish words for automatons, golems, and slaves--the valley elves are dead in spirit, servants of mortal causes. That valley elves work for a human is actually meaningless, as many other elves across the Flanaess do the same thing. That the valley elves have no greater purpose in life—that is their true crime and curse. This all explains, too, why the valley elves did not outright slay the drow Tysiln San when she appeared in the valley, instead capturing her and taking her to the Mage. Any other group of elves would have killed her instantly and done no more about it. Valley elves, however, have no grudge against drow any more than they have a grudge against other elves. Tysiln San was an intruder, and that was all they cared about. Now she's their leader, and that's fine with the valley elves, since the Mage ordered it, and the valley elves follow the Mage's every command without questioning.
    -Valley Elf Kit

    So, we have...
    Drow: sought to dominate other races, corrupted by Lolth, at war with surface elves.
    Snow elves: tricked into granting drow passage through their land, shunned by good elves.
    Valley elves: Spurned both Lolth and Corellon, forcibly exiled by elves.
    Rockseers: fled from battle, living in self-imposed exile.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:06 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    2) "The Exodus" is the same except the civil war never happened - Lolth quietly drew her followers into the underdark before the Seldarine could muster their forces. This version is more popular with drow.


    This myth also appears in Monster Mythology (page 59): "The alternative version has Lolth realizing that only a minority of elves were wise and intelligent enough for her gifts, and here she leads them away from the effete, time-wasting, lazy surface elves to a deeper world where the blossoming of their innate magical skills mirrored their growing wisdom under Lolth's tutelage."

    The same source also gives us a hybrid version of the first myth (the drow are exiled by force after a battle with the surface elves) and the second myth (the drow are the chosen few who Lolth selected to willingly leave for the underworld). "...in the hybrid version, Lolth's triumphant leading of her chosen people causes Corellon panic and anxiety and he seeks first to prevent the exodus, so that he can force Lolth and the drow to give up their secrets. When he fails to force this, he throws a tantrum and raises up a pursuing force to slay the dark elves. By their wit, ability to cover their tracks... and general superiority the dark elves avoid the fate Corellon intended for them."

    Quote:
    The key point here is that Lolth didn't make elves evil, some were already ripe for it.


    One thing that I don't think gets enough attention is that Lolth wasn't necessarily the only demon lord the drow turned to in their corruption. Deities & Demigods (1st edition) says "The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth." As I quoted above, Dragon #298 states that the most evil and ambitious of the drow worshiped Lolth, but by no means does that mean she was their only patron. There are, of course, other drow gods mentioned in Monster Mythology and Dragon #298: Kiaransalee, Keptolo, and the Elder Elemental God are just a few. In the Gord books, after Lolth is vanquished in Q1 and the Elder Elemental God is exposed as a fraud perpetuated by Iuz and Zuggtmoy, the drow turn swiftly to Graz'zt. I like the idea that while Lolth may have become the foremost of the demonic patrons of the drow, at least in Erelhei-Cinlu, she was probably not the only demon they venerated, and perhaps not even the first. Graz'zt, Fraz-Urb'luu, Nocticula, Zuggtmoy, Rhyxali, Baphomet, Lupercio, Socothbenoth, Lamashtu, Malcanthet, Tharzax, Volispula, Alrunes, Gresil, and Pale Night are all strong candidates for drow cults, as well as the various Elder Evils of the aboleths.

    Another thing probably worth mentioning is that some sources distinguish between the fall of Lolth and the fall of the drow. In the Forgotten Realms setting, 20,000 years passes between one event and the other. First she's banished to the Abyss by Corellon Larethian, then she spends millennia working her way up the Abyssal hierarchy, gathering armies, conquering territory, shaping her realm, battling with Zuggtmoy, and reclaiming her divinity before she learns of elves vulnerable to her teachings. Some have already fallen to the cult of the Elder Elemental God before Lolth sends the balor Wendonai to make them an offer.

    Quote:
    Finally, going on something of a tangent, Roger Moore explained the creation of Valley Elves and their relationship to the drow in his long-lost "Valley Elf Kit" that I can't find anywhere online


    I've read that before, though I can't tell you what site I found it on offhand. I think the idea that valley elves are anathema to other elves for being neutral in the war against the drow is very good, and it's definitely my take on the subject. Thanks for posting this, though; I left it out because I didn't know of a canonical source for the idea, and I'd forgotten about Moore's essay.
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