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    Canonfire :: View topic - Demi-Hybrids
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    Demi-Hybrids
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:08 am  
    Demi-Hybrids

    Greetings Friends of CF!

    We are all accustomed to the 'typical' half-breeds of DnD, the posterchildren of hybrids, the half-elves and half-orcs. However, I am curious how many of you have used other demi-combinations from the traditional racial stock of dwarves, elves, halflings, humans, and gnomes.

    For instance, what about a dwarf-gnome cross? A tallfellow-elf? Et cetera...

    What stats have you offered such a racial blend, including the following:

    1) height and weight?

    2) hair and eye color variation?

    3) lifespan (include breakdown for the age categories, too)?

    4) racial abilities?

    5) statistical modifiers (to ability scores)?

    6) anything else pertinent...

    Honestly, I've not delved too deeply into this topic, and have only alluded to such blends in my own games, but would gladly infuse more 'crossing' in the future, where it makes sense.

    interested,

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1361
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:50 am  
    Re: Demi-Hybrids

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Greetings Friends of CF!

    We are all accustomed to the 'typical' half-breeds of DnD, the posterchildren of hybrids, the half-elves and half-orcs. However, I am curious how many of you have used other demi-combinations from the traditional racial stock of dwarves, elves, halflings, humans, and gnomes.

    For instance, what about a dwarf-gnome cross? A tallfellow-elf? Et cetera...

    What stats have you offered such a racial blend, including the following:

    1) height and weight?

    2) hair and eye color variation?

    3) lifespan (include breakdown for the age categories, too)?

    4) racial abilities?

    5) statistical modifiers (to ability scores)?

    6) anything else pertinent...

    Honestly, I've not delved too deeply into this topic, and have only alluded to such blends in my own games, but would gladly infuse more 'crossing' in the future, where it makes sense.

    interested,

    -Lanthorn


    -I've created a thorp (still not fully developed) on the Lortmils in southern Veluna which is a racial hodgepog (they build primitve pumps for boats and mines). I thought that if a player wanted to, that I would offer a gnome-dwarf mix as a PC. I didn't come up with any stats (again, still underdeveloped), but I assume they'd get a CON bonus and CHA and COM penalties.

    Dwarves are actually a lot bigger than gnomes; the "mechanics" would be, uh, interesting...

    One thing which would facilitate the mix would be that in the old AD&D, that dwarves and gnome children were born at a ratio of two males for every female; even though the official rules say otherwise, I've kept fro my variant of D&D 3.5 for continuity (you could think of it as a campaign specific rule change).

    How many people use the 2:1 male: female ratio in their games?
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2707
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:51 am  

    I haven't delved into that myself, but there is a bit of precedent for it in fantasy literature (if not D&D specifically). Cornelius, Prince Caspian's mentor, is a half-dwarf. They are not well-respected by the true dwarves of Narnia.

    SirXaris
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
    Posts: 380
    From: Verbobonc

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:28 pm  

    I will reference a Forgotten Realms publication at this point. Please forgive me.

    Dwarves Deep stated that dwarves could mate with all other demihumans, and that the results bred a dwarf (of different height). Thus a human/dwarf hyrbid was a rather taller dwarf, though in the second generation the offspring would be a dwarf.

    I will now conduct penance.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2707
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:19 pm  

    For simplicity's sake, Tarelton's point of simply calling a half-dwarf a dwarf is a good one in my opinion. I might go a bit further and allow the PC to pick one race to get bonuses/penalties from and ignore the other. The player could then decide on height, weight, looks, etc. that reflect the mixed breeding and roleplay it.

    Additionally, Pathfinder has a racial trait called Mixed Breed (or something like that), which simply says that the PC, whatever their race, has some blood from another race running in their veins. They are still a normal member of their race, but count as another race also (elf, dwarf, halfling, human, gnome) when dealing with magic that affects only members of that other race. It's just a small effect that represents a bit of blood from an anscestor in their distant past.

    I also remember that some 2nd ed. source said that once a half-elf has children, those children are considered full-blooded members of their other parent's race (elf or human) for all game mechanics purposes. Thus a child of a half-elf and a human would count as human for all game purposes. A child of a half-elf and an elf would count as an elf for all game purposes. So, only truly half-bloods would even need their own set of statistics, according to published rules.

    SirXaris
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:01 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
    Posts: 222
    From: Modena, Italy

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:24 pm  

    I recall a line in the PHB or MM where is stated that orcs have numerous forms of half breeds among them (not surprisingly accoridng to their habits or raping and pillaging). hobgoblin-orcs, goblin-orcs and human-orcs are all potential half-orcs and share the same stats... if my memory doesn't fail me.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 12, 2005
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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:39 pm  

    Dark Sun has half-dwarves (called Mul) which are set out as a distinct race. The race should have incarnations in 2E (Campaign Setting), 3.5E (in the Dragon / Dungeon adaptations I think) and 4E (Campaign Setting). In 4E, various options for re-skinning these half-dwarves for non-Dark Sun settings were published in Dragon, one of which involved them being an experimental slave race engineered by the drow.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
    Posts: 222
    From: Modena, Italy

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:03 am  

    Found "Half-Ores: As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of
    unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, orchobgoblins,
    and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs
    tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs
    although they can sometimes (lOYo) pass themselves off as true creatures
    of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.)."
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:47 am  

    I tend to steer clear of hybrid demi-humans but it has crossed my mind. I wouldn't rule one out as an interesting NPC but I don't think that I would offer the option to a player.

    Also I prefer that not all races can produce offspring when they inter-breed (not that it might stop them from trying). Having said that in a fantasy game you should always be willing to explore the options!

    With regards to say a human-dwarf crossbreed there isn't there precedence showing that magical tampering was required (creation of the derro)? Or was the magic just used to augment the cross-breeding?

    Maybe you could treat demi-human cross-breeding in a similar way to the breeding between a donkey and a horse and the resulting mules or hinnies/jennet. Offspring between the two is rare but if there is a 'fruitful' union, a male child is always sterile and a female child only has a slim chance of being fertile. That way you keep the prospect of growing cross-breed populations which if possible would surely be reflected in some population breakdowns somewhere in the Flanaess (especially places like the Ulek States or Highvale).

    If a child was produced I'd go with the suggestions above that the child would for all intents and purposes be treated like one of the parents but with some cosmetic differences to indicate a mixed lineage.

    Personally I prefer keeping humans and orcs as the primary common denominator in a successful hybrid as it ties in well with their seemingly inherent adaptability and fecundity (repesctively).

    Also their is a practical logistics element. For example in a female gnome/male orc union the child may be too large for the gnome to manage resulting in complications that don't end well for one or both of them.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:59 am  

    As a biologist, I can well imagine all sorts of reproductive barriers preventing hybridization (I talk about this in my zoology class to students), including the obvious genetic and mechanical (parts don't fit Wink ) barriers. There are more, but these are perhaps the two most important ones to consider for demi-hybridization.

    That aside, here is a list of some potential cross-breeds I think are the most plausible:

    1) dwarf/gnome

    2) tallfellow (halfling)/elf

    3) gnome/elf

    4) stout (halfling)/dwarf

    5) gnome/halfling

    Perhaps a human could cross with any of them, of course...

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:02 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...Additionally, Pathfinder has a racial trait called Mixed Breed (or something like that), which simply says that the PC, whatever their race, has some blood from another race running in their veins. They are still a normal member of their race, but count as another race also (elf, dwarf, halfling, human, gnome) when dealing with magic that affects only members of that other race. It's just a small effect that represents a bit of blood from an anscestor in their distant past...


    -Ah! I think it was Dragon #315 and #319 which had the Flaneass specific feats. One of them di that (Part-Elvish descent, or something like that). I'm certain that some of the D&D 3.5 supplements and later Dragons (320s-330s) had them to.

    Now, as for the AD&D1 or AD&D2 users, tough luck (that means you, Lanthorn! Razz ). But even for the other editions, it does set a precedent and a way to adjudicate how it works.

    Wolfling wrote:
    ...Also their is a practical logistics element. For example in a female gnome/male orc union the child may be too large for the gnome to manage resulting in complications that don't end well for one or both of them.


    -For those who use the 2:1 male to female ratio for dwarves and gnomes, there might be a genetic complication for other hybrids as well...

    Flint wrote:
    Dark Sun has half-dwarves (called Mul) which are set out as a distinct race...


    -There was a Dragon issue which had articles on all the major campaigns, and the article on Athas had the rules for the Mull.

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Long ago, I had an elf/halfling mix in a game...


    ...and...

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...That aside, here is a list of some potential cross-breeds I think are the most plausible:

    1) dwarf/gnome

    2) tallfellow (halfling)/elf

    3) gnome/elf

    4) stout (halfling)/dwarf

    5) gnome/halfling

    Perhaps a human could cross with any of them, of course...

    -Lanthorn


    -I always assumed that Tallfellows were an Elf/Halfling mix which bred true. Ditto the Stouts.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    As a biologist, I can well imagine all sorts of reproductive barriers preventing hybridization (I talk about this in my zoology class to students), including the obvious genetic and mechanical (parts don't fit Wink ) barriers. There are more, but these are perhaps the two most important ones to consider for demi-hybridization...


    - "God, Schmod. I want my Monkey Man!" Razz Laughing
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:41 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:42 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:13 pm  

    I completely forgot that I have a half-ogre PC that I played many years ago, until MToscan mentioned them. They are a fun, and very playable, race as long as the DM makes sure the player suffers the drawbacks of being 7.5 feet tall and very ugly/scary-looking. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:15 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    ... There used to be a time in our world, when people looked for mates who shared some common ground with themselves. Think of any of those old movies with some Italian mother admonishing her son to "go find yourself a nice Italian girl" Granted, those are often set in a time when here in America, nationalities tended to still stick together; you had the Italian neighborhood, the Irish neighborhood, the German neighborhood, etc...


    -Ah... but often as not, he ended up with an Irish girl (nice or otherwise), which sort of put a damper on MAFIA recruitment. Think Goodfellas...

    BlueWitch wrote:
    ... In Dragonlance, it seemed to be assumed ANY half elf was the product of rape... Really, half elves should be very rare, if for no other reason than the elf might not care for the idea of seeing his/her spouse grow old and die in almost the blink of an eye, then to inflict this shorter lifespan upon their own children? By elven standards, that may almost seem abusive...


    1) I always assumed that most Half-Elves were product of "dalliances", where "responsibility" might not be the first consideration. Think "Paradise by the Cart's Dashboard Lights"... Wink

    2)They are a relatively small percentage of the population (less than 3% of those who are "Humans"). Plus, all those Half-Elves are not neccessarily first generation; many could be second or third generation before the "Elvish" genetic influence is thin enough that they are simply "Human", or perhaps "Human" with a special "Elvish background" feat.

    3) Because they are sort of the Odd Man (or Half-Elf) Out, Half-Elves are disproportionately represented in the ranks of "adventurers", though, as are Half-Orcs.

    BlueWitch wrote:
    ... One last thing: I have been aware of the 2 to 1 ratio for dwarves for a long time, but I do not recall ever hearing of that regarding gnomes. As far as I know, they have a roughly 50/50 ratio of male to female births.


    -I recently added the 2:1 ratio for both Dwarves and Gnomes to my list of rule changes for D&D 3.5 after I noticed that the D&D 3.5 MM seems to go for a 1:1 ratio for both. I think I used the AD&D1 MM as my justifying "source". FWIW, I also remember something called The Big Book of Gnomes (or something like that) which also went for the 2:1 ratio. I suppose that the later may have inspired the former.

    I'll check when I get the chance.
    EDIT: I forgot. I keep my rule changes on my thumb drives.

    Here is what I have:

    -DWARVES:

    1) Male : female ratio of 2:1
    [Variant from AD&D1 MM, p. 35; AD&D2, Monstrous Compendium, Vol. I, p. “Dwarf”]

    -GNOMES:

    1) Male : female ratio of 2:1
    [Variant from AD&D1 MM, p. 46; AD&D2 Monstrous Compendium, Vol. I, p. “Gnome”]

    Now, I'll go back again to make sure I didn't misinterpret it in my enthusiasm...
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