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    Canonfire :: View topic - Movement Discrepancy
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    Movement Discrepancy
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:08 pm  
    Movement Discrepancy

    Got into a heated debate with fellow player/DM about the discrepancy noted between the movement rates of characters and mounts between the Glossography of the original Greyhawk boxed set, Wilderness Survival Guide, and the 1st edition DMG.

    According to the boxed set (and supported by the 1e DMG), for instance, a horse can move 60 miles in a day on a ROAD. On a plain it is 45 miles, and so on. The WSG says a horse can travel but 24 miles in normal terrain, and that is in an 8 hour period. The Glossography and 1e DMG don't even say what a given day's travel time is. 8 hrs? 10 hrs? 12 hrs? None given. Furthermore, the more recent The Adventure Begins says that a typical day's march (by 2e PHB movement rates) is 10 hrs. The movement rates for people between these guides are also contradictory.

    Even more discontinuity... Confused

    So...need some help here, everyone, b/c my friend and I are really going back and forth on this issue, and we want to have some type of continuity between our games.

    Firstly, what is the 'given day' for the rates listed in the original boxed set (and noted in the 1e DMG, as they are, at least, on the same proverbial page)? This alone will alleviate some of the debate between us.

    Is 60 miles too much, or is it accurate? We don't even agree on that.

    Additionally, there is flight to consider. He and I are going back and forth about this, too, and why a horse on a road or flat plain may be able to outdistance a flying animal (say, a griffon), if this supposition is even plausible.

    It seems the references are not maintaining any type of continuity, and this is the main problem.

    Help!

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:35 pm  

    Eight hours of total travel time per day, with relatively frequent stops for resting/feeding to keep the mounts from getting worn down/dieing.

    Important Note: The Wilderness Survival Guide rules are not additions to the rules in the DMG, but are replacements.

    I prefer using the "Rates of Travel" on page 3 of the 83' boxed set Glossography, as they are detailed enough to cover what I need them to. Horses can travel 60 miles in a single day on a road, which equates to 2 hexes per day on the Darlene Greyhawk map.
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    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:17 pm  

    Cebrion,

    If the WSG is a replacement, then it nullifies the travel times listed in the 1e DMG and the Glossography rates.

    That's the issue the two of us are debating.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:52 pm  

    I understand. My point is, choose one of them, and use it. You are the DM. I am pretty sure you are the one who gets to choose. Wink So, choose one, and then get back to doing something which will undoubtedly be much more interesting than this (both for you and your players). Laughing

    Also, I can see why 10 full hours of full travel time was selected later, as being able to divide things by ten allows one to do percentages of distance in one's head rather easily. If you like the ease of that, go with 10 hours instead of 8. Last, a horse can cruise along at 6mph, for 10 hours in a day, on a road or open ground(plains/prairie), without undue stress. That is not unrealistic by any means. I used to go riding for a couple hours or so at a time to exercise horses while the owner was away for an extended period, and we covered nearly 20 miles in 2 hours. That involved mostly walking, some trotting, and a few short bursts of galloping, and with a few short stops for rest/treats. We rode mostly on horse trails, but not always.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:34 pm  

    I pretty much just switched to the WSG/DSG for movement rates, especially since they covered pretty much everything in detail with nice charts. I liked the extra rules to deal with forced marching too. My heroes seem to need to do that a lot! :)
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:02 am  

    Cebrion, I appreciate your input, as always, and was the one who preferred the Glossography and 1e DMG movement rates over those proposed in the WSG. Happy I thought it completely reasonable for a horse to cover the distances written in those two books (60 miles in a 'travel day' on a ROAD) even though I got vehement opposition. Confused I also far preferred the breakdown provided in the table in the aforementioned source over those given in all other tomes. Furthermore, I think the rates given in the WSG were too minimal whereas he thought those offered in the other books too generous. The other bone of contention between us was what was defined as a 'travel day.' 8 hrs, 10 hrs, 12 hrs? For the most part, I consider the WSG one of the BEST source guides out there, but when it comes to distance covered by man or beast, I am skeptical and believe the rates far too minimal.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:42 am  

    What's really not right are travel rates on water. I started working on an article for Gh about this. It will discuss travel rates from the various cities along rivers and seas. I just haven't had the time to do it lately.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:01 pm  

    I agree, the distances traveled are pretty low- half that of most other sources in many cases. An unencumbered light warhorse will travel about 32 miles per day, in 12 hours of travel time per day (see below for how I get 12 hours), in normal terrain. That is one Darlene map hex, or about half of what the other system results are. Some of the other rules in the book are great, but these are horrible.

    As to travel time, the WSG very blatantly states how long a day of travel is for individuals who are walking, and for mounts. For characters on foot, read the "Large Scale Overland Movement" section.

    For animals:

    Quote:
    ...The movement rate for a mount or a beast of burden also is a general indication of the animal's stamina; such an animal can be forced to move continually for a number of hours equal to one-half of its current movement rate, up to a maximum of 12 hours(you can )...

    --- WSG, p. 32, "Encumbrance and Movement for Land-based Animals", paragraph two


    In other words, in the WSG there is no set time of travel per day for everything- you have to figure it out on a case-by-case basis. I found this in seconds...in the relevant sections. You, and your player, need to read much, much more betterer...er. Wink
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:04 pm  

    Did you compare the rules in those sources with the 2nd Edition DMG? 2e bases overland movement distance on a creature's movement rate, and has modifiers for terrain.

    60 miles per day sounds like a gallop; there's no way a horse can maintain that speed for an extended period of time without becoming exhausted.

    Jeff
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:41 am  

    The speed is 5-6 miles per hour, not 60 miles per hour. Granted the 60 mile *per day* rate is for near perfect riding conditions (i.e. roads, well established trails, flatland), which definitely needs to be taken into account. The 100 mile long Tevis Cup is regularly ridden in 12-15 hours over trails. You don't want to do that with the same horse every day though. The WSG rates seem reasonable enough. If you want more "heroic" horses Laughing, use the greater distances.

    Oh, and I Google mapped the area I used to ride in. We covered about 15 miles in 2 hours, not 20 miles. We put the horses through their paces too (they were trained to walk, trot, canter, and gallop; we joked that they had 4-speed transmissions Happy), but the 15 miles was mainly covered by walking and trotting. One of the horses knew the trails well, and when we reached a particular point near home (where it knew it would get water, a treat, and groomed) it would always get excited and want to gallop for that roughly 2 mile long section. You'd have to be careful about that sometimes, especially one portion of the trail where there was white equestrian railing- the horse liked to run really close to it. It freaked me out that I might get my right knee taken out by one of the posts, but I never got closer than a foot to it. Still, that is close enough when you are galloping along at about 30 mph. The horse definitely enjoyed that part of the ride more than I did.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 06, 2016 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:09 am  

    I think my friend and I finally settled the debate and came to a reasonable consensus. I've convinced him the 60 miles per day on a road is feasible in 10 hrs for a horse, and that an unencumbered person can make 30 miles in that timeframe as well. The average human walking speed, after all, IS 3 mph.

    Personally, I was the one to dispute the meager distances offered in the WSG and support those rates listed in the Glossography. I also like the greater detail offered in that guide with respect to travel methods and terrain type. The WSG doesn't give much variety.

    The only final caveat to all this was what to do with flying mounts since these are NOT included in the Glossography. In the end, I told him to take the rates offered in the WSG and double them for the miles per day those creatures could travel in a 10 hr period and that should suffice. He seemed satisfied.

    Despite my disagreement with the travel rates given in the WSG, I still contest it is one of the BEST source guides ever written for the game and highly prize its contents.

    thanks again everybody,

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:51 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    The only final caveat to all this was what to do with flying mounts since these are NOT included in the Glossography. In the end, I told him to take the rates offered in the WSG and double them for the miles per day those creatures could travel in a 10 hr period and that should suffice. He seemed satisfied.


    You could use the WSG base rates. Base move, modified by encumbrance = movement per round. Total hours of movement allowed per day is equal to half the total modified movement value. For example...

    A mobat (bat, huge) has a flying speed of 15'. It is being ridden by a lightly armed and armored xvart warrior, whose total weight encumbers the mobat. The mobat's flying speed is now reduced to 12'. The mobat can fly 12' per round, and it may do so for a total of 6 hours (modified speed divided by 2) per day before tiring. It is assumed that the mobat is not flying continuously, there being a few rest stops (for both the mount and the rider) made during that time. Total distance flown in that 6 hours: 81 miles.

    Or...

    An venerable blue dragon is carrying a fully armored anti-paladin and pack supplies on a long journey. The blue dragon's base flying speed is 30'. Even considering all of the weight of the aniti-paldins, his gear, and his supplies, the venerable blue dragon is so strong that the total weight is negligible. As such, its flying movement rate is not reduced below 30' per round and it may fly at this speed for a total of 15 hours per day before tiring. Total distance flown in that 15 hours: 818 miles

    Migrating ducks and geese fly 400-500 miles in a 10-hour day, so the above seems about right to me (bigger critter fly farther than littler ones).

    Also, there is no terrain in the air, but there is wind. Strong headwinds will slow down speeds...but tail winds and can speed them up! Happy Assign wind speeds as the different terrain types (winds below 15 mph are "normal terrain", winds above 15mph but below 40 mph are "rugged terrain", winds above 40 mph but below 60 mph are "very rugged terrain", winds above 60mph are "impassable terrain"; adjust as you see fit), and then adjust flying speeds as you would ground speeds. In the event of a tail wind, adjust the speeds upwards by that factor instead of downwards.

    I'll leave you to figure out vectors on your own. Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:57 am  

    I actually got down to pencil and paper calculations for the movement rates for 3 flying creatures to compare/contrast what the Wilderness Survival Guide states, and they do indeed contradict one another. See page 47 in this book to see the necessary tables.

    My gut feeling was correct, however. In general, take the creature's flying movement rate and double it. This will be the approximate number of miles this creature can fly in roughly an 8 hour period. This takes into account actual flying time as well as necessary rest periods for the creatures.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:43 am  

    OK, here it is. I used the stamina and flight movement rates given to griffons, hippogriffs, and pegasi in the Wilderness Survival Guide (page 47) to finally tabulate the amount of distance each of these beasts can cover. These rates assume average conditions based on weather and wind velocities (no tail, cross, or headwinds) and that they are not encumbered.

    Griffon: 30 MV = 300 yards/round (outdoors) for 18 turns before needing 6 turns of rest. This equates to 30.7 miles in 3 hours of flying, or 61.4 miles in 6 hours of actual flight time. Two total hours would be needed for rest (two bouts of an hour apiece between flight intervals). If enough daylight were available, the griffon likely could cover more ground before dusk (especially during the summer months).

    Hippogriff: 36 MV = 360 yards/round (outdoors) for 15 turns before needing 3 turns of rest. This equates to 30.7 miles in 2.5 hours of flight time, or 61.4 miles over 5 hours of actual flight time. It would need a single hour, total, of rest (2 30 minute intervals between bouts). If enough daylight remained, the hippogriff could take to the air and cover more distance.

    Pegasus: This animal is the race-car of aerial movement! 48 MV = 480 yards/round (outdoors) for 12 turns before needing 3 turns of rest. This equates to 37.7 miles in 2 hours of flight time, or 98.2 miles (!) in 6 hours of actual flight time for a mere 1.5 hours of rest (the total time elapsed would be 7.5 hours for flight and rest periods).

    I hope this helps. I didn't figure out travel/flight times for any other beasts, but would be willing to do so if somebody needed those figures who did not have access to this book. Happy

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu May 05, 2016 1:28 pm  

    I had a CN witch who used a white dragon skeleton at mv 40. Did not need rest and could do 80+ miles per day. She rigged a hammock inside the head and transformed the ribcage into living quarters by mounting a small boat hull and canvas lining the rib cage. Cast invisibilty on it, fly at an altitude of 8k feet and avoid all pre-planned encounters. Even random encounters, if they could detect it, could not catch it.

    You need good flat roads to move a light warhorse to 30 miles per day without pushing the animal and incurring saves vs death magic. Move of 15 is 10 hours over flat terrain.

    The advantage of mounts is their carrying capacity. An unencumbered human sized PC can do 24 miles over good roads. My current character has magic armour and a donkey with pack saddle.

    With warhorses you have to carry fodder or oats. You need two warhorses to travel for any distance. One just to carry fodder or oats.

    Walk with a donkey or get a mule. They can live off grazing and can be taken into dungeons (if they fit) (donkey should).

    8gp or 150gp X2 plus fodder. Warhorses are a waste of money for just travelling.
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