Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - How to "wrap up" Sea Princes?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    How to "wrap up" Sea Princes?

    Who should ultimately win?
    Olman won, Keoland lost Westkeep
    8%
     8%  [ 1 ]
    Olman won, Keoland kept Westkeep
    25%
     25%  [ 3 ]
    SB won, Keoland lost Westkeep
    8%
     8%  [ 1 ]
    SB won, Keoland kept Westkeep
    8%
     8%  [ 1 ]
    Sea Princes returned and won it all!
    25%
     25%  [ 3 ]
    Something else?
    25%
     25%  [ 3 ]
    Total Votes : 12

    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 21, 2010
    Posts: 196


    Send private message
    Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:48 pm  
    How to "wrap up" Sea Princes?

    In my Keoland campaign we are approaching the year 595 and I'd like to wrap up the chaos and the whole Keoland involvement in the Hold of the Sea Princes. A tragic ending, a happy ending... Doesn't matter. The PCs and the players are not interested whats going on there. I'd just like to have some conclusion with the whole affair.

    Any ideas?
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:30 pm  

    I don't see the Scarlet Brotherhood having the resources to maintain any kind of grip on the Sea Princes. Nor do I see the flan slaves as having the resources to organize enough to actually conquer and hold the land. Keoland is the nation with the resources and ability to follow through with holding conquered land, so I actually think that Keoland should end up controlling the vast majority of what used to be the Hold of the Sea Princes.

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 21, 2010
    Posts: 196


    Send private message
    Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:43 am  

    Thank you SirXaris, that sounds sensible in the long run.

    I've been mulling this and I think I will do the following.

    Olman and Touv led by Utavo the Wise slowly fight their way through the SB defences, which are minor in the inland. When they are close to Westkeep, the less-evil Olman approach Keoish officers with a diplomat (a young tribal chief) and reach an agreement:
    The surrounding areas of Westkeep will be conceded to Keoland. This will form a new province called the Tribal Areas of Tachanikhuli. They are promised autonomy in exchange of swearing fealty to the Lion Throne and paying yearly taxes to the crown (in goods and gold).

    Roughly one-third of the Olman leave the wicked Utavo and the allied Olman and Keoish troops strike to clear the northern Hold from SB and Utavo influence. Burdened with internal warfare with the Black Brotherhood and in the crossfire of Keoish-Olman alliance and Touv-Olman tribal forces enhanced with vile magic, SB withdraws. The Black Brotherhood stays behind to plague Flotsom, Jetsom, and Fairwind.

    Utavo will conquer most of the former Hold and it will called the Kingdom of Utavo. He will sign a nonaggression treaty with Keoland (Keoland will be bribe him well to get the treaty).
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 10, 2003
    Posts: 254
    From: Harker Heights, TX

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:04 pm  
    Keoland won!

    In my campaign, Keoland eventually ground out a victory in Westkeep, and expanded out from there to eventually take the whole of the land.

    My adventurers were granted viceroy status over the newly created "Sea March", but it was still wild and largely untamed land - with some SB holdouts and sleeper cells, former Sea Prince pirates, and local warlords vying for control. This made it a challenge not only to win the land, but to tame it.

    Made for a good long term, high level series of adventures that never really ended.

    O-D
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:55 pm  

    Yeah,

    The only outcome that makes sense to me is a Keoland victory. The Scarlet Brotherhood may have won the battle but Keoland is better suited to win the War. An eventual Keoland victory makes the most sense to me.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 21, 2010
    Posts: 196


    Send private message
    Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:29 am  

    I'd like to argue against Keoland's victory :)

    Keoland is waging war on two fronts: They are active in the retaking of Geoff and they are still trying to survive in the ex-hold. Keoland is doing poorly in Westkeep (LGG says so), so it seems that they are unable to deal with the situation due to their other commitments. Hool Marshes are severely restricting their access to the former hold.

    Olman and Touv have the momentum with Utavo's leadership. Keoland could try to broker a deal to get a cut of the land before anything permanent is established by Utavo.

    SB is too embroiled in internal conflicts to make a difference.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2570
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:16 am  

    Great thread, Sutemi!

    I personally never liked the SB directly invading the Sea Princes so have excluded that in my own games, preferring the subtle mind games and control.

    But working with canon and your story line it does seem unrealistic that the Sea Princes would rise up and things would go back to the way they used to be. Most likely Keoland holds a bit as does the immigrants. Just throw out the monks! Laughing
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:39 pm  

    I agree that Keoland has enemies on multiple fronts, but I will still argue that driving the SB out of the Hold of the Sea Princes would necessarily be one of their topmost priorities.

    The situations in Bissel and the Principality of Ulek have stabilized, so Keoland doesn't have to continue to throw resources at them. Depending upon the year, the situation involving the giants, Sterich, and Hochoch may or may not still demand Keoland's attention. However, what Keoland absolutely does not want is a hostile neighbor to their direct south and adjacent to them on the Azure Sea. Keoland cannot afford to allow the Scarlet Brotherhood to establish control of the land south of the Dreadwood. That would require Keoland to maintain a larger defensive force along their border with it. Even worse, it would allow the Scarlet Brotherhood to gain control of a large portion of the Azure Sea and all of Jeklea Bay. That would largely kill Keoland's economy as their merchant marine would be severely crippled in its ability to trade with foreign lands.

    So, I believe that, barring foolish political demands from northern nobles, the Keoland crown's most reasonable priority would be to make every effort necessary to control the Hold itself.

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1243
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:36 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    I'd like to argue against Keoland's victory :)...


    -Well, Keoland's last great interventionist phase ended at a place called Westkeep. In the swamps, disease spread faster than the 5th level Clerics could cure it, IIRC.

    Maybe Keoland is better prepared this time?

    SirXaris wrote:
    I agree that Keoland has enemies on multiple fronts, but I will still argue that driving the SB out of the Hold of the Sea Princes would necessarily be one of their topmost priorities...


    ...although it goes against Sutemi's main argument:

    Sutemi wrote:
    ...SB is too embroiled in internal conflicts to make a difference.


    ...that too, plus they have other wars to fight.

    Maybe coming out in the open wasn't such a hot idea for the SB after all? Laughing
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 498
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:49 am  

    Hopefully folks won't mind me resuscitating so many old threads, but as I read old discussions, I sometimes feel moved to respond and hope that others who expressed past interest might update the community (and inform me) about what they've developed in the years since the original discussion.

    Regarding Westkeep, the Black Brotherhood, and Utavo the Wise, I think of the LGG as seeding potential adventures.

    In other words, without the PCs' intervention, Keoland may well lose Westkeep. Perhaps they discover a magic item that purifies water and/or cures disease and gift it to the Keoish general holding Westkeep? Perhaps they persuade "advanced" lizard men (a la the U series) to aid the Keoish army? Etc.

    Similarly, regarding the Black Brotherhood, without the PCs, their cult and stronghold (within the Hool Marshes?) may flourish, but with the PCs' intervention, defeat may scatter them.

    Regarding Utavo the Wise, in past years I've imagined him originally being a cleric of a goodly Touv deity (unspecified), whom the Gauntlet may have corrupted. Reviewing UK3 today, however, I see that this would require some changes to the module's description of the Gauntlet.

    In particular, I'd need to change or accommodate the damage (1d8) that the Gauntlet, as published, causes each round to any non-evil person who wears it. If I keep this effect, as is, perhaps Utavo was able to resist, limit, or simply sustain the damage long enough that the Gauntlet decided to change tactics and (begrudgingly) negotiated with him until they reached an accord: in return for its powers, Utavo would conquer, and rule, the "Grand" Duchy of Berghof.

    Along the way Utavo's alignment may have changed from good to neutral, and the PCs would be instrumental in determining whether Utavo might yet be saved from falling completely to evil.

    More broadly, I'd like for the Hold of the Sea Princes to become ruled mostly by former slaves (a la Haiti) but who have to accommodate a handful of former "Sea Princes" (and Keoland) and whose governance would remain bedeviled by Black Brotherhood and Scarlet Brotherhood agents. But we'll have to "play to find out."
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
    Posts: 475
    From: Dantredun, MN

    Send private message
    Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:31 pm  

    I imagine the Sea Princes conflict paralleling real-world nations that simply fall into decades of unrest and war.

    The deciding factor is there's no reason to conquer it. The islands have the only strategic significance The rest of the land is isolated and resource poor, the sole export being foodstuffs.

    Keoland sits on two vast rivers and has no want for food. The king isn't going to send endless troops and wagon trains through the "disastrous" Hool Marshes and Dreadwood (LGG). Neither is he going to risk their fleet against the Brotherhood's islands for refugees and oranges. Keoland is focused on giants, demon bubbles, Ketties, hag covens (Ghosts Saltmarsh), Brotherhood ships, Slavelords, and orcs. Skotti's allies and knights are pushing him to save fallen allied states, not the malaria-plagued tropics of former enemies.

    Likewise, now that the Brotherhood has toppled the navel powers of the southern oceans, they have little reason to "rule" here. They decapitated the Princes, already looted the cities, and taxed Keoland with a red herring. Mission accomplished. They'll keep the islands and move their focus to the Iron League and elsewhere.

    Most likely foreign powers will pick proxies to support among the rebels and warlords of the former Sea Princes. Sabre rattling and shipments of arms will be used to keep enemies from gaining an upper hand and prevent any one side from winning the territory.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am  
    From the Ashes

    It seems that you could have your players use the From the Ashes rules to determine what happens, right?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 26, 2002
    Posts: 394
    From: Canada

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:01 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Hopefully folks won't mind me resuscitating so many old threads, but as I read old discussions, I sometimes feel moved to respond and hope that others who expressed past interest might update the community (and inform me) about what they've developed in the years since the original discussion.


    Why should you apologize? I love looking at these old threads and seeing what I might have missed.

    Anyway, given that the LGG paints Keoland's occupation of Westkeep as a fiasco, that's what I would run with. Keoland will continue its proud national tradition of suffering a humiliating defeat and running home with its tail between its legs and get kicked out of Westkeep.

    I should note that, in my version of Greyhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood doesn't tear down the structure of any country it co-opts. Like Mortellan's Brotherhood, mine prefers the subtle mind games and control. I describe the Brotherhood's method of conquest in OJ #33 and here, so suffice to say the Brotherhood intended to use the Hold of the Sea Princes the same way it did the Lordship of the Isles, as a source of trading revenue and a way to ferry its agents further north. However, the Fodder's invasion combined with the slave uprising got out of hand and embroiled the Hold in a civil war that destroyed the old structure. In the process, Keoland continued its national pasttime of losing wars, seizing and then losing Westkep. (Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. All you leave behind is a bunch of noisy dead weight.)

    The Brotherhood's modus operandi allows it to be flexible, so it devised another use for what was once the Sea Princes. It backed some of the Suel slave leaders who won the war with its help and created a new state of their own, the Free Amedian Confederacy. This state was ostensibly independent and in fact had a lot of its own autonomy, but it was part of the Great and Hidden Empire, its leadership's ties to the Brotherhood a secret known only to very few.

    Amedia, as the new state is commonly known, is a sort of confederacy made up of the areas different tribes have carved for themselves. Every tribe dominates a particular area, and they are all of course Suel. The chieftains of each of these Suel tribes act as a sort of legislative council that governs the state, and only Suel tribesmen may serve in these positions. From among themselves, they elect a United Speaker who functions as the head of state. Demihumans and non-Suel humans have more limited rights and are more of an underclass, particularly the Olman whose old feuds the Suel tribal leaders have not forgiven or forgotten.

    Amedia's economy is growing but still fragile, owing to the need to rebuild from years of war and the Suel leaders still learning to work as a group. Many of the Sea Prince captains and shipwrights fled to places ranging from the Pomarj to the Horned Empire, helping those nations to start building their navies. Some of the Sea Prince naval experts, as well as other professionals such as bureaucrats, clerics and educators, were allowed to remain as citizens of Amedia after pledging allegiance to the new government, much as the Haitian rebels did for some Europeans who threw in with them. The Suel ex-slaves are currently working to learn shipbuilding and nautical skills from their ex-masters, as they intend to become great sailing traders and raiders in their own right.

    The Brotherhood has a more self-serving goal, of course. They just want Amedia to provide a steady, reliable supply of Fodder, much like they intend the Thillonrian barbarians to. If Amedia provides a new source of revenue in trade, then so much the better. It is meant to be a puppet of the Brotherhood, just as the Brotherhood itself is the puppet to Korenth Zan, the Crown Prince of the Suel Imperium, the last living member of the Royal House of the Suel, the last living witness to the Rain of Colorless Fire and the final puppetmaster.

    To the Memory of the Lost Imperium.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 16, 2019
    Posts: 25


    Send private message
    Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:16 am  

    vestcoat wrote:
    I imagine the Sea Princes conflict paralleling real-world nations that simply fall into decades of unrest and war.
    ...

    Likewise, now that the Brotherhood has toppled the navel powers of the southern oceans, they have little reason to "rule" here.

    ...

    Most likely foreign powers will pick proxies to support among the rebels and warlords of the former Sea Princes. Sabre rattling and shipments of arms will be used to keep enemies from gaining an upper hand and prevent any one side from winning the territory.


    This chimes with my view. I like FtA but I never did like the idea of the Brotherhood turning to overt conquest. It really didn't seem to be their style. With the assassination of most of the Princes, I see the area reverting to type & a renaissance of privateering. Most of the ships that the Brotherhood 'took possession' of likely still had the same crew & it seems to me that most of them would probably slip quietly out of harbour at some point & find a quiet cove somewhere to use as a pirate base. So the Brotherhood fleet is more a strength on paper than a physical reality.

    As a personal preference I also see it as an opportunity to introduce Freeport into the game as a new minor power & also have some fun with the Yuan-ti!
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 498
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:58 pm  

    Glad to see this old thread has prompted new discussion. Below I respond to several points in the recent posts.

    Regarding motivation to conquer the Sea Princes, I'm intrigued by Samwise's old account of how Keoland under Tavish the Great (of House Rhola) established the Monmurg in CY 301 and later the eponymous march (later duchy) as the culmination of House Rhola's centurial war against the Toli (or perhaps Tollax) Suel.

    Regarding reasons to conquer parts of the Sea Princes, I agree with vestcoat that the islands have an obvious strategic significance, but I think that the size and age of the coastal cities are even more significant for controlling Jeklea Bay and trade with (exploitation of) the western Hook of the Amedio Jungle.

    Regarding the Sea Princes being resource poor, I understand that the WoG and later sources have consistently highlighted that the main export is foodstuffs, which obviously have lesser value than say gems or precious metals, but following the Earthly analogue, I've imagined that those foodstuffs include not only tropical fruit but also coffee and sugar, for which other kingdoms' merchants and nobles had just begun to acquire a taste in the CY 560s (or even later). (I also wonder if the Pomarj was a major importer of goods from the Sea Princes.)

    For Keoland, therefore, King Skotti's conquest of Westkeep has the support of Rholan nobles who are eager to reacquire their holdings among the former Duchy of Monmurg, particularly the city and the islands.

    Regarding "keeping the islands," I think that the islanders are another source of rebellion or at least resistance: their cultural traditions would seem to chafe hard against the tenets of the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    Regarding the idea of the Sea Princes becoming a proxy war, besides Keoland and the Scarlet Brotherhood, I wonder who else would be adequately invested to use that venue. For me, therefore, following the LGG, the main contenders are the former slaves and the remnant of former Sea Princes, and I favor the former slaves establishing a new order—fractious and featuring Earthly and unOerthly Faustian pacts.

    Regarding CruelSummerLord's gibes against Keoland, I had to laugh out loud and suppose I'm more sanguine to having Skotti's invasion be more redolent of Tavish the Great than Tavish III.

    Having said that, however, I greatly enjoy the notion of Amedia and agree with Jared's approach to the Brotherhood's subtle seizing of power rather than Sargent's invasion.

    I've set my new campaign in CY 583 in part to explore (play through) my own version of Gygax and Sargent's set-ups. IMC, the Brotherhood has worked diligently for the past few decades to subvert the Sea Princes along the "racial" lines that Jared has articulated, but I'm undecided with which of the major Sea Princes they've been successful.

    Also, I will likely eschew (or significantly modify) Sargent's invasion although I do plan for the PCs to have the opportunity to interfere with (or facilitate) Sargent's mass assassination of the Sea Princes' "minor nobles."

    I'll stop now, as I've veered from this thread's presupposition of Sargent's vision and the LGG's development.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.52 Seconds